The Peter Schiff Show and Interviews.

[navycorpsman]

Yup, and that's another reason I sold out. At some point, the BS outweighs the rewards, and you just gotta follow your own heart, at that point.

This may also be a reason why certain financial institutions had to be bailed out, their CEOs had no clue what was going on in their companies. Individuals created a lot of paper wealth, and when the paper turned back into paper, and people walked away from mortgages, their house of cards collapsed. Got nothing but contempt for them all. Hell, I had one programmer who kept coding in back door access to all our software, 'for debugging purposes'. That ain't right... you do not give yourself access to a client's finances.

But like I said before, I'm of a different generation, we had different values. It does make me wonder what the hell my generation did wrong, though. It's difficult to blame an entire generation for the acts of a few, but somewhere, someone really screwed the pooch. Parents, government... I dunno, Clinton was the first Baby Boomer President, and it goes back further than the 90s.

[The Big Daddy C-Master]

Feb 3, 2012 14:58:33 GMT -5 navycorpsman said:

Yup, and that's another reason I sold out. At some point, the BS outweighs the rewards, and you just gotta follow your own heart, at that point.

This may also be a reason why certain financial institutions had to be bailed out, their CEOs had no clue what was going on in their companies. Individuals created a lot of paper wealth, and when the paper turned back into paper, and people walked away from mortgages, their house of cards collapsed. Got nothing but contempt for them all. Hell, I had one programmer who kept coding in back door access to all our software, 'for debugging purposes'. That ain't right... you do not give yourself access to a client's finances.

But like I said before, I'm of a different generation, we had different values. It does make me wonder what the hell my generation did wrong, though. It's difficult to blame an entire generation for the acts of a few, but somewhere, someone really screwed the pooch. Parents, government... I dunno, Clinton was the first Baby Boomer President, and it goes back further than the 90s.

I don't think they "had" to be bailed out. These companies that made bad decisions on the expense of our dollar when we couldn't afford it. It sucked when the house of cards fell down, but it happens. This is why welfare like this is bad. Where do you draw the line? Who is "entitled" to this? There are other companies who grow in the midst of fallen business and money could have been generated instead of lost.

Baby Boomers did a lot by passing their burden on others. Social Security is also a mess and a ponzi scheme, it is also unconstitutional.

[navycorpsman]

Feb 3, 2012 15:05:47 GMT -5 The Big Daddy C-Master said:

Social Security is also a mess and a ponzi scheme, it is also unconstitutional.

Hahahhaha... jaysus. Take a little advice from an older guy, do NOT repeat that statement in public. The feds like to keep an eye on people like you and I.

[The Big Daddy C-Master]

Feb 3, 2012 15:08:54 GMT -5 navycorpsman said:

Feb 3, 2012 15:05:47 GMT -5 The Big Daddy C-Master said:

Social Security is also a mess and a ponzi scheme, it is also unconstitutional.

Hahahhaha... jaysus. Take a little advice from an older guy, do NOT repeat that statement in public. The feds like to keep an eye on people like you and I.

Haha, good. It's true though. Peter Schiff even talks about it.



Listen up kiddies, this man is right.

[Coolest thing Alive]

Feb 3, 2012 14:31:10 GMT -5 navycorpsman said:

You know, it's funny.. in a strange way. Whenever I hired someone, back in the 90s, I used to give a little speech about the expectations I had, vs the expectations they had. It went something like this:


"I'm an unrepentant capitalist. I risked my money and my time and energy to create something, and now I sell it. I'm out to do one thing, make a profit, but that does NOT mean I have to screw anyone over, to do it. Sure, I could make a larger profit, or faster profit, by screwing people over, but that's not me. I pay more than average wages, and I expect more than average work. I've searched for the best benefits and perks package that I could find and put together, because I value my co-workers and by God, I hope they value me. I call this, Corporate Good Citizenship, because corporations are considered citizens, in this country. And like any other citizen, we can be good citizens, or bad citizens. We choose, by popular vote, a charity to which the whole company will donate money, every year a different charity. We choose to be good citizens, ALL of us, or none of us.

And this company makes damn good software, and we do it in a timely fashion and with an ironclad guarantee. Sometimes, we stay late, or get here early, to meet the time deadlines or the guarantee of good product. Sometimes, we sacrifice a little, to keep our reputation. So be it. My father used to have a saying, "If a man hires you at a dollar an hour, give him $1.10 an hour worth of work." I don't want you to kill yourself working here, I want you to LIVE WELL because you work here, and you're damned proud of what you do. If I gave out bonuses for merit, I'd be bankrupt in a month, because everyone here would get a bonus on a daily basis, and that is why we are successful.

Either you get this, or you don't. If you get it, you'll do well here. If you don't get it, I advise you to find a job that better fits your own expectations. I always wish those well, who decide this place is not for them."

That's great! Your business is a true gem in this country. I commend you for establishin an honest business. Just wish others could do the same, as well. The world would be a better place if everyone made a profit with keeping the issue of ethics in mind.

[Coolest thing Alive]

Feb 3, 2012 0:43:29 GMT -5 The Big Daddy C-Master said:

No, people should be protected equally, that includes the high income person. The few who are successful and productive should be protected from the whims of the mob. We have a republic for this reason. The founding father's knew the dangers of a democracy. They knew the dangers of 10 wolves vs 1 lamb arguing what's for dinner. The people are going to vote to take more at the expense of the few. The people at the top 10% are paying 70% of the taxes, while the bottom 50% are paying 3%. A "poor" person in this country has a house, car, even plasma tv's on average. There was research done on this, if they want anything else, it's a luxury, and they should have to earn it.

You're my boy, don't worry about. You were saying things like businesses were in it for the money (they should want a profit, it's why we had a powerful economy, keyword on had). You said we should be "caring" and "help" others. They are being helped.

There are only a very small percentage of people at the top abusing the system, the government is allowing this because they are in bed with it. There are many people at the bottom exploiting the system too. This is no scheme. The scheme is saying "Rich people are bad, punish the rich because it's all their fault." The government does this because it wants people to be dependent on it so it can extend it's power with votes. They already destroyed the black community with welfare and now they have slaves for life. I don't want people to be slaves for me or vice versa. But people looking for the government to be a solution will only be slaves of it.

Assist who though? The government makes things more expensive, like they did with mortgages and school. The government "regulations" (not all of them of course) just made health care more expensive, and then combine that with the litigious nature of our society. It's very risky owning a business. You think it isn't slavery to pass laws making it hard to fire someone from your business when they are unproductive because of stupid laws? Or that you should pay them ridiculous entitlements because of stupid laws.

By making things so "anyone" can have them, you just raise the cost and enslave those who produce those goods to the whims of the mob. That's why it's a problem. I'm all for people helping themselves first and foremost.

You can't protect everyone equally, more money brings different problems; problems with different lvls of protection.
The top 10% also have lower tax rates than the middle class and the lowest tax rates in the history of this republic. Money brings power in this worthless republic, and like uncle Ben says, with great power comes great responsibility. Proportionately, the top 10% aint doin their part. It's absurd that people with so much power over this country desires and expects the same lvl or responsibility as the average workin American. You hold the lives of dozens, hundreds, thousands, and millions of people in yur hands. Quit whinin and do you part, top 10%. Lulz @ True ideal capitalism sustainin an entire country as complex as the USA. There's no such thing as 100% freedom and equality in a properly functioning society. If there were, there'd be much less than 7 Billion people in the world. And people who didn't make enough money to the point where they'd be too busy to post on internet forums, would not exist. That's me, you, and all of us. Cuz lets be honest, none of the 10 ten % are on this forum.

I said that, but I was hopin that you would agree that there's a lvl of ethics in makin profits. Ethics that would not be followed if there are not laws to do so. I didn't mean for a government to baby the country, just a government to act as a life guards in this shark infested ocean. Life guards only save you from downin or being eaten. . .if they can. It's not their job to go to the hospital with you to nurse you back to health or convince/help you get back into the ocean after you phuck up.

I agree, the government is in bed with the top and that has to change, especially since the top has the power to ruin the system, completely. But that still coincides with the "Scheme Theory". They want you to pay attention to the losers chippin away at the bottom while the few CEO's and government royally butcher the top.

Assist those who can't afford to pay for survival. I'm not sayin the government should provide fat cat health care, but the government should, at least, provide the bare necessities of medical services preventin needless deaths. I aint sayin the government should pay for plastic surgery or monthly check ups for everyone, only steppin for citizens whose life is in immediate or near-immediate peril. The American who can't afford privatized health care shouldn't have to worry about payin the hospital cuz he or she had to go to the ER cuz the got mangled by a drunk driver. The gov is stated to be ran by the people, as a collective group, we should want to help those who are in grave danger.

Lol I'm not sayin everyone should have same health care, but everyone should be provided with the minimal help to live in order to put themselves in a position to help themselves. Again, this is what I mean by takin everything stated to the extremes. That's a problem.

[navycorpsman]

Feb 6, 2012 12:38:43 GMT -5 Coolest thing Alive said:

That's great! Your business is a true gem in this country. I commend you for establishin an honest business. Just wish others could do the same, as well. The world would be a better place if everyone made a profit with keeping the issue of ethics in mind.

Want to know something really sad? I was (while I still owned the business) considered a socialist/communist despite my opposition to unions and redistribution of wealth, simply because I wasn't greedy enough for Silicon Valley in the 80s and 90s. I was too willing to share the wealth, apparently, and far too good to my employees/co-workers. Which is why I had very few problems getting the very best minds to come work with me. I never did like the 'employer/employee' concept, I preferred 'co-workers'. I realize that sounds a lot like Walmart calling people sales associates, but it was an important distinction to me, as I considered everyone my equal except that I owned the company. Hell, I reduced my own salary so as to keep my personal taxes low, and after 9/11, I started looking to cash out completely, as long as the buyer agreed to continue wages and benefits for five years. That really limited the buyers to the big boys, and of course, five years after I sold, the company ceased to exist. By then, less than 30 people I had hired were still with the company. They knew what was coming, mostly because I told them exactly what would happen. Myself and the 16 'partners' I had taken on as expansion happened in the explosion of the dot com boom, all cashed in at well over a million dollars apiece.

About two dozen of those former co-workers now own their own companies.

[The Big Daddy C-Master]

Feb 6, 2012 13:30:11 GMT -5 Coolest thing Alive said:

Feb 3, 2012 0:43:29 GMT -5 The Big Daddy C-Master said:

No, people should be protected equally, that includes the high income person. The few who are successful and productive should be protected from the whims of the mob. We have a republic for this reason. The founding father's knew the dangers of a democracy. They knew the dangers of 10 wolves vs 1 lamb arguing what's for dinner. The people are going to vote to take more at the expense of the few. The people at the top 10% are paying 70% of the taxes, while the bottom 50% are paying 3%. A "poor" person in this country has a house, car, even plasma tv's on average. There was research done on this, if they want anything else, it's a luxury, and they should have to earn it.

You're my boy, don't worry about. You were saying things like businesses were in it for the money (they should want a profit, it's why we had a powerful economy, keyword on had). You said we should be "caring" and "help" others. They are being helped.

There are only a very small percentage of people at the top abusing the system, the government is allowing this because they are in bed with it. There are many people at the bottom exploiting the system too. This is no scheme. The scheme is saying "Rich people are bad, punish the rich because it's all their fault." The government does this because it wants people to be dependent on it so it can extend it's power with votes. They already destroyed the black community with welfare and now they have slaves for life. I don't want people to be slaves for me or vice versa. But people looking for the government to be a solution will only be slaves of it.

Assist who though? The government makes things more expensive, like they did with mortgages and school. The government "regulations" (not all of them of course) just made health care more expensive, and then combine that with the litigious nature of our society. It's very risky owning a business. You think it isn't slavery to pass laws making it hard to fire someone from your business when they are unproductive because of stupid laws? Or that you should pay them ridiculous entitlements because of stupid laws.

By making things so "anyone" can have them, you just raise the cost and enslave those who produce those goods to the whims of the mob. That's why it's a problem. I'm all for people helping themselves first and foremost.

You can't protect everyone equally, more money brings different problems; problems with different lvls of protection.
The top 10% also have lower tax rates than the middle class and the lowest tax rates in the history of this republic. Money brings power in this worthless republic, and like uncle Ben says, with great power comes great responsibility. Proportionately, the top 10% aint doin their part. It's absurd that people with so much power over this country desires and expects the same lvl or responsibility as the average workin American. You hold the lives of dozens, hundreds, thousands, and millions of people in yur hands. Quit whinin and do you part, top 10%. Lulz @ True ideal capitalism sustainin an entire country as complex as the USA. There's no such thing as 100% freedom and equality in a properly functioning society. If there were, there'd be much less than 7 Billion people in the world. And people who didn't make enough money to the point where they'd be too busy to post on internet forums, would not exist. That's me, you, and all of us. Cuz lets be honest, none of the 10 ten % are on this forum.

I said that, but I was hopin that you would agree that there's a lvl of ethics in makin profits. Ethics that would not be followed if there are not laws to do so. I didn't mean for a government to baby the country, just a government to act as a life guards in this shark infested ocean. Life guards only save you from downin or being eaten. . .if they can. It's not their job to go to the hospital with you to nurse you back to health or convince/help you get back into the ocean after you phuck up.

I agree, the government is in bed with the top and that has to change, especially since the top has the power to ruin the system, completely. But that still coincides with the "Scheme Theory". They want you to pay attention to the losers chippin away at the bottom while the few CEO's and government royally butcher the top.

Assist those who can't afford to pay for survival. I'm not sayin the government should provide fat cat health care, but the government should, at least, provide the bare necessities of medical services preventin needless deaths. I aint sayin the government should pay for plastic surgery or monthly check ups for everyone, only steppin for citizens whose life is in immediate or near-immediate peril. The American who can't afford privatized health care shouldn't have to worry about payin the hospital cuz he or she had to go to the ER cuz the got mangled by a drunk driver. The gov is stated to be ran by the people, as a collective group, we should want to help those who are in grave danger.

Lol I'm not sayin everyone should have same health care, but everyone should be provided with the minimal help to live in order to put themselves in a position to help themselves. Again, this is what I mean by takin everything stated to the extremes. That's a problem.

Back up, and I agree for different reasons, freedom is based on people who want it. We can't be equal in a society that steals from others to give others free money, that gives women more rights than men, and lets losers live off of others.

But I need to clear something up on you. The richest people are paying the highest tax rate percentage in this country, that's a fact. We have a progressive tax system. I don't know where you got the idea that wealthy people pay less taxes. Stop listening to the propganda and research the truth.

People like Buffet and other investors who pay less personal tax do so because they are taxed two times, once at the corporate level. He pays more in taxes in one year, than his secretary in the lifetime. Rich people pay far more out in regulations and benefits, it's nothing but stealing.

The rich are doing their part and they're caring the unfair burden. When you have the top 10% paying 70% of the taxes, how are they not doing their part? The bottom 50% pay 3% and get more government benefits than anyone else, that's a fact. Most of the government spending goes to the middle class and the poor, that's also a simple fact. Public schools, vaccines, foodstamps, welfare, wic, snap, veteran benefits.

To believe otherwise is just too silly. It was never in the constitution and the job of the productive to carry the unproductive ever. It was not mentioned in the bible. How much taxes should the rich pay? 90%, 95%? They should be punished for being successful?

If you are in a country like America and you're poor, it's almost always because of laziness and stupidity (being bad choices).


This is why the republic was invented. The poor have the power to destroy the system faster because they contribute nothing to it. The people at the top make the wealth and the production possible. It's not our job to take care of leechers and moochers who want to get a free ride.

We have 50% of Americans getting support from the government in one way or another that's waaaaay too much. Way too much leeching and taking. The poor in this country ARE the 1% in comparison to the world and that's because of the inventions and technology of PRODUCTIVE people. People who are poor in this county are just jealous of those more successful, especially considering that the poor in other countries are way poorer than them.

The rich also give more to charity, they provide jobs, and they help the real estate as well. The rich are the backbone of this society and are doing far more than just one average worker or welfare leech.

The people at the bottom ruin the system by using the government. The government promises them stolen money and they continue to vote for them.

You said everyone should be taken care of, which is my point. No, everyone should NOT be taken care of, they should get up and provide for themselves. People should have a *choice* if they want to help others. Not be forced to do it at gunpoint by the government. Simple as.

[navycorpsman]

There is a large number of people who believe that, as the USA became more powerful and more rich, during the 20th century, more and more social programs became entrenched as a method of exploiting the poor for many many reasons... political, financial and others.

Most rich people I knew were Gecko Greedy... they just wanted to keep all their money, no charity, no taxes. Things have changed somewhat, now that Gates and Buffet have endowed their foundations with huge sums of money, like Carnegie and Rockefeller did a century ago. Sure, Buffet pays a lot of corporate tax, as well as the 15% investment tax on personal income. If you ever have a moment, Google up the forms required to apply for a grant from the Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation. It takes up a large number of pages... because Gates and Buffet (who endowed the same foundation) believe that giving money to morons who waste it, is stupid. The government of the US does not agree... not any more.

The uber rich are slowly beginning to understand the resentment of the mass of people who will never have that kind of money, and those same rich people are beginning to donate to many charities. A lot of rich people had their minds changed by events that forced them to see what was really happening worldwide, and they now comprehend that charity is a good thing. Sure, I agree that government should help those who really cannot work, are disabled in some way. Sure, I agree that we are all neighbors, in a manner of speaking.

But, it's gone far far beyond that. Cradle to grave social programs destroy the initiative innate in human beings to challenge the status quo and to seek better than what they have. Why work, when you get food water and shelter for free? Why succeed in school when I just bought a hamburger from a PhD?

When we create a society of victims, why are we surprised when those victimized/oppressed turn on the oppressor? When we give uppers to young boys who are just being young boys, why are we surprised when they get expelled for disrupting class? When we reward young women with children for leaving their husbands/boyfriends by giving them a better standard of living than they had when they were living with a man, why are we surprised when those women raise kids who are seriously screwed up? And finally, when we take money from the wealthy and rich, and give it to the poor, with very little regulation, very little oversight, why are we surprised when those poor refuse to try to get out of poverty? When we refuse help to those who wish to study, by cutting off their welfare because they are not searching for a job, how can those poor people possibly get out of poverty?

I had a pal who worked at a Job Corp, where kids 16-24 could get their GED and learn a trade. Less than 10% could stop smoking dope long enough to graduate AND keep a job for two years. Since LBJ started the program in the 1960s, millions upon millions of dollars were spent, in an attempt to wage "War on Poverty" as LBJ put it. If people do not want to be helped, no amount of money will serve to help them.

[The Big Daddy C-Master]

Feb 7, 2012 16:20:09 GMT -5 navycorpsman said:

There is a large number of people who believe that, as the USA became more powerful and more rich, during the 20th century, more and more social programs became entrenched as a method of exploiting the poor for many many reasons... political, financial and others.

Most rich people I knew were Gecko Greedy... they just wanted to keep all their money, no charity, no taxes. Things have changed somewhat, now that Gates and Buffet have endowed their foundations with huge sums of money, like Carnegie and Rockefeller did a century ago. Sure, Buffet pays a lot of corporate tax, as well as the 15% investment tax on personal income. If you ever have a moment, Google up the forms required to apply for a grant from the Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation. It takes up a large number of pages... because Gates and Buffet (who endowed the same foundation) believe that giving money to morons who waste it, is stupid. The government of the US does not agree... not any more.

The uber rich are slowly beginning to understand the resentment of the mass of people who will never have that kind of money, and those same rich people are beginning to donate to many charities. A lot of rich people had their minds changed by events that forced them to see what was really happening worldwide, and they now comprehend that charity is a good thing. Sure, I agree that government should help those who really cannot work, are disabled in some way. Sure, I agree that we are all neighbors, in a manner of speaking.

But, it's gone far far beyond that. Cradle to grave social programs destroy the initiative innate in human beings to challenge the status quo and to seek better than what they have. Why work, when you get food water and shelter for free? Why succeed in school when I just bought a hamburger from a PhD?

When we create a society of victims, why are we surprised when those victimized/oppressed turn on the oppressor? When we give uppers to young boys who are just being young boys, why are we surprised when they get expelled for disrupting class? When we reward young women with children for leaving their husbands/boyfriends by giving them a better standard of living than they had when they were living with a man, why are we surprised when those women raise kids who are seriously screwed up? And finally, when we take money from the wealthy and rich, and give it to the poor, with very little regulation, very little oversight, why are we surprised when those poor refuse to try to get out of poverty? When we refuse help to those who wish to study, by cutting off their welfare because they are not searching for a job, how can those poor people possibly get out of poverty?

I had a pal who worked at a Job Corp, where kids 16-24 could get their GED and learn a trade. Less than 10% could stop smoking dope long enough to graduate AND keep a job for two years. Since LBJ started the program in the 1960s, millions upon millions of dollars were spent, in an attempt to wage "War on Poverty" as LBJ put it. If people do not want to be helped, no amount of money will serve to help them.

That's one problem with growing success. America was the largest creiditor nation wtih lots of manufacturing. The politicians saw it as a way to get themselves into power by exploiting the naivety and stupidity of people, not to mention the jealousy.

I agree with thier doings. When the government takes wild amounts of money and gives it to anyone easily, it gets in the way of those who need it the most. Which is what really irks me. I think a person should give even when they struggle. It says a lot about a person and it even says for a person to do so in the Bible (for those who like to quote it), sure you won't give as much as a billionaire, but it's the mindset. There's someone around you who needs something and is legitimate about it. Many people complain about how "evil" rich people are, not realizing they not only give far more, but pay more in taxes. Most people don't bother giving until around the holidays because everyone else does it.

The problem is that there will always be envy, and that's why I like private charity. You know where the money goes (if you do the research) and it's better because people don't feel entitled to it, they feel like someone is helping them out. With welfare it's "their" money, which is a problem. I don't want my money going to morons who pop out kids they can't afford, even in my own family. I don't like funding losers. And you're right. Fund single mothers, you get more. Make divorces easy and rewarding, you get more of that too. We've screwed over the men in this country too. People who can get 500 a week unemployment aren't going to work for 550 when they can sit around free. It's just common sense.

I'm well aware of that. I've known many kids in and out of trouble and I'd try to help them myself, we'd even employ them. They wouldn't show up, or they'd lay in bed all day talking about how things are "hard" and "unfair". People blaming others for their failure is the first sign of a loser, through and through.

[navycorpsman]

While I am sure some would crucify me for this remark, it does not make the statement any less valid.


The world needs ditchdiggers, too.

[The Big Daddy C-Master]

No, it's completely true. That's another thing that will be back in force. People working "dirty jobs". People have gotten it into their heads that working with your hands is bad, and it should only be done by illegals or those without education. Jobs like that are the building block of society and we need them. As things get worse, people will turn to them.

[Coolest thing Alive]

Feb 6, 2012 16:14:33 GMT -5 navycorpsman said:

Want to know something really sad? I was (while I still owned the business) considered a socialist/communist despite my opposition to unions and redistribution of wealth, simply because I wasn't greedy enough for Silicon Valley in the 80s and 90s. I was too willing to share the wealth, apparently, and far too good to my employees/co-workers. Which is why I had very few problems getting the very best minds to come work with me. I never did like the 'employer/employee' concept, I preferred 'co-workers'. I realize that sounds a lot like Walmart calling people sales associates, but it was an important distinction to me, as I considered everyone my equal except that I owned the company. Hell, I reduced my own salary so as to keep my personal taxes low, and after 9/11, I started looking to cash out completely, as long as the buyer agreed to continue wages and benefits for five years. That really limited the buyers to the big boys, and of course, five years after I sold, the company ceased to exist. By then, less than 30 people I had hired were still with the company. They knew what was coming, mostly because I told them exactly what would happen. Myself and the 16 'partners' I had taken on as expansion happened in the explosion of the dot com boom, all cashed in at well over a million dollars apiece.

About two dozen of those former co-workers now own their own companies.

Sad really. They've really fixed the market to where you have to play ball or die fast. Sounds to me though, like you did the right thing, to me anyway. Do you regret your decisions?

[The Big Daddy C-Master]

Feb 17, 2012 18:38:31 GMT -5 Coolest thing Alive said:

Feb 6, 2012 16:14:33 GMT -5 navycorpsman said:

Want to know something really sad? I was (while I still owned the business) considered a socialist/communist despite my opposition to unions and redistribution of wealth, simply because I wasn't greedy enough for Silicon Valley in the 80s and 90s. I was too willing to share the wealth, apparently, and far too good to my employees/co-workers. Which is why I had very few problems getting the very best minds to come work with me. I never did like the 'employer/employee' concept, I preferred 'co-workers'. I realize that sounds a lot like Walmart calling people sales associates, but it was an important distinction to me, as I considered everyone my equal except that I owned the company. Hell, I reduced my own salary so as to keep my personal taxes low, and after 9/11, I started looking to cash out completely, as long as the buyer agreed to continue wages and benefits for five years. That really limited the buyers to the big boys, and of course, five years after I sold, the company ceased to exist. By then, less than 30 people I had hired were still with the company. They knew what was coming, mostly because I told them exactly what would happen. Myself and the 16 'partners' I had taken on as expansion happened in the explosion of the dot com boom, all cashed in at well over a million dollars apiece.

About two dozen of those former co-workers now own their own companies.

Sad really. They've really fixed the market to where you have to play ball or die fast. Sounds to me though, like you did the right thing, to me anyway. Do you regret your decisions?

That's the market I suppose.

[Coolest thing Alive]

Feb 6, 2012 19:23:05 GMT -5 The Big Daddy C-Master said:

Back up, and I agree for different reasons, freedom is based on people who want it. We can't be equal in a society that steals from others to give others free money, that gives women more rights than men, and lets losers live off of others.

But I need to clear something up on you. The richest people are paying the highest tax rate percentage in this country, that's a fact. We have a progressive tax system. I don't know where you got the idea that wealthy people pay less taxes. Stop listening to the propganda and research the truth.

People like Buffet and other investors who pay less personal tax do so because they are taxed two times, once at the corporate level. He pays more in taxes in one year, than his secretary in the lifetime. Rich people pay far more out in regulations and benefits, it's nothing but stealing.

The rich are doing their part and they're caring the unfair burden. When you have the top 10% paying 70% of the taxes, how are they not doing their part? The bottom 50% pay 3% and get more government benefits than anyone else, that's a fact. Most of the government spending goes to the middle class and the poor, that's also a simple fact. Public schools, vaccines, foodstamps, welfare, wic, snap, veteran benefits. To believe otherwise is just too silly. It was never in the constitution and the job of the productive to carry the unproductive ever. It was not mentioned in the bible. How much taxes should the rich pay? 90%, 95%? They should be punished for being successful?

If you are in a country like America and you're poor, it's almost always because of laziness and stupidity (being bad choices).
This is why the republic was invented. The poor have the power to destroy the system faster because they contribute nothing to it. The people at the top make the wealth and the production possible. It's not our job to take care of leechers and moochers who want to get a free ride.

We have 50% of Americans getting support from the government in one way or another that's waaaaay too much. Way too much leeching and taking. The poor in this country ARE the 1% in comparison to the world and that's because of the inventions and technology of PRODUCTIVE people. People who are poor in this county are just jealous of those more successful, especially considering that the poor in other countries are way poorer than them. The rich also give more to charity, they provide jobs, and they help the real estate as well. The rich are the backbone of this society and are doing far more than just one average worker or welfare leech.

The people at the bottom ruin the system by using the government. The government promises them stolen money and they continue to vote for them.

You said everyone should be taken care of, which is my point. No, everyone should NOT be taken care of, they should get up and provide for themselves. People should have a *choice* if they want to help others. Not be forced to do it at gunpoint by the government. Simple as.

I agree 100%.

Heh, that isn't a fact, It's like half a fact that you've been tricked into believin. This piece of info is readily available to anyone who wishes to read it. I don't know where you're gettin your shit from but it's a known fact that in 2011, the top 10% earn more than they've ever earned before and pay way less, proportionately, than they ever have. This should be a damn crime.

This is hilarious! C, you've let'em fool you with their trickery. Proper research is key if you really wanna know the truth. Buffet "pays more in taxes in one year, than his secretary in the lifetime", but Buffet earns more money in a week than his secretary would in a life time. The rich are carryin a burden, sure. But in a proportionate compression to the bottom 90%, the burden isn't anywhere near as heavy, despite being taxed multiple times. To make those who've been feedin you this silliness look worse, even Buffet himself is appalled by the tax disparities and he's wealthier than 90% of the 1% who whine, bitch and moan about mannin up to their responsibilities as Americans with a vast amounts power.
www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/06/27/AR2007062700097.html

I see you've also adopted their tactics. What I want to know is, what reason do you have to lie to me or only show me like 1/4 of the information, like they do? If you're being 100% honest with me and not just tryin to prove somethin, I suggest you read this.

www.cbsnews.com/8301-505123_162-57361165/are-the-wealthy-paying-too-much-in-taxes/

There is a reason for the numbers and percentages you posted and those reasons lead to the whole point of the proportionate disparities argument.

The poor simply being lazy has some truth to it. But that isn't the case for most poor and destitute individuals. The true problem is systemic more than it is personal. That other bit about the poor and the rich is only true in fairy tales. The rich ruin the country more than they help it since them and the government tag teamed the system to fine tune it to keep themselves on top, not by being better, but ruining those who would attempt to prosper. The system is designed to keep the wealthy rich and the poor...well fuck'em. It's why we got bail outs, friend. Wall street bail out did worse than any welfare program ever could. That's why white collar criminals have longer careers then the common career criminal. Yeah, the real world sucks.

I agree with that. It's not as wide spread or as damagin as you make it seem, but I agree.

LMBAO Again, takin what I said to the extremes. I never implied any of that. Everyone should NOT be "taken care of". But even the poor or less fortunate should not have to die a needless death, Que the affordable BASIC government healthcare, as in near death emergency room visits or assistance for serious but curable illness. I really don't know how many other ways I can say that. If you some how take that as me sayin the government should provide everyone with the same top class, monthly check up to the physician and dentist health care, and free HIV treatment, then we aint got nothin else to talk about in this regard.

[The Big Daddy C-Master]

Feb 17, 2012 19:55:48 GMT -5 Coolest thing Alive said:

Feb 6, 2012 19:23:05 GMT -5 The Big Daddy C-Master said:

Back up, and I agree for different reasons, freedom is based on people who want it. We can't be equal in a society that steals from others to give others free money, that gives women more rights than men, and lets losers live off of others.

But I need to clear something up on you. The richest people are paying the highest tax rate percentage in this country, that's a fact. We have a progressive tax system. I don't know where you got the idea that wealthy people pay less taxes. Stop listening to the propganda and research the truth.

People like Buffet and other investors who pay less personal tax do so because they are taxed two times, once at the corporate level. He pays more in taxes in one year, than his secretary in the lifetime. Rich people pay far more out in regulations and benefits, it's nothing but stealing.

The rich are doing their part and they're caring the unfair burden. When you have the top 10% paying 70% of the taxes, how are they not doing their part? The bottom 50% pay 3% and get more government benefits than anyone else, that's a fact. Most of the government spending goes to the middle class and the poor, that's also a simple fact. Public schools, vaccines, foodstamps, welfare, wic, snap, veteran benefits. To believe otherwise is just too silly. It was never in the constitution and the job of the productive to carry the unproductive ever. It was not mentioned in the bible. How much taxes should the rich pay? 90%, 95%? They should be punished for being successful?

If you are in a country like America and you're poor, it's almost always because of laziness and stupidity (being bad choices).
This is why the republic was invented. The poor have the power to destroy the system faster because they contribute nothing to it. The people at the top make the wealth and the production possible. It's not our job to take care of leechers and moochers who want to get a free ride.

We have 50% of Americans getting support from the government in one way or another that's waaaaay too much. Way too much leeching and taking. The poor in this country ARE the 1% in comparison to the world and that's because of the inventions and technology of PRODUCTIVE people. People who are poor in this county are just jealous of those more successful, especially considering that the poor in other countries are way poorer than them. The rich also give more to charity, they provide jobs, and they help the real estate as well. The rich are the backbone of this society and are doing far more than just one average worker or welfare leech.

The people at the bottom ruin the system by using the government. The government promises them stolen money and they continue to vote for them.

You said everyone should be taken care of, which is my point. No, everyone should NOT be taken care of, they should get up and provide for themselves. People should have a *choice* if they want to help others. Not be forced to do it at gunpoint by the government. Simple as.

I agree 100%.

Heh, that isn't a fact, It's like half a fact that you've been tricked into believin. This piece of info is readily available to anyone who wishes to read it. I don't know where you're gettin your shit from but it's a known fact that in 2011, the top 10% earn more than they've ever earned before and pay way less, proportionately, than they ever have. This should be a damn crime.

This is hilarious! C, you've let'em fool you with their trickery. Proper research is key if you really wanna know the truth. Buffet "pays more in taxes in one year, than his secretary in the lifetime", but Buffet earns more money in a week than his secretary would in a life time. The rich are carryin a burden, sure. But in a proportionate compression to the bottom 90%, the burden isn't anywhere near as heavy, despite being taxed multiple times. To make those who've been feedin you this silliness look worse, even Buffet himself is appalled by the tax disparities and he's wealthier than 90% of the 1% who whine, bitch and moan about mannin up to their responsibilities as Americans with a vast amounts power.
www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/06/27/AR2007062700097.html

I see you've also adopted their tactics. What I want to know is, what reason do you have to lie to me or only show me like 1/4 of the information, like they do? If you're being 100% honest with me and not just tryin to prove somethin, I suggest you read this.

www.cbsnews.com/8301-505123_162-57361165/are-the-wealthy-paying-too-much-in-taxes/

There is a reason for the numbers and percentages you posted and those reasons lead to the whole point of the proportionate disparities argument.

The poor simply being lazy has some truth to it. But that isn't the case for most poor and destitute individuals. The true problem is systemic more than it is personal. That other bit about the poor and the rich is only true in fairy tales. The rich ruin the country more than they help it since them and the government tag teamed the system to fine tune it to keep themselves on top, not by being better, but ruining those who would attempt to prosper. The system is designed to keep the wealthy rich and the poor...well fuck'em. It's why we got bail outs, friend. Wall street bail out did worse than any welfare program ever could. That's why white collar criminals have longer careers then the common career criminal. Yeah, the real world sucks.

I agree with that. It's not as wide spread or as damagin as you make it seem, but I agree.

LMBAO Again, takin what I said to the extremes. I never implied any of that. Everyone should NOT be "taken care of". But even the poor or less fortunate should not have to die a needless death, Que the affordable BASIC government healthcare, as in near death emergency room visits or assistance for serious but curable illness. I really don't know how many other ways I can say that. If you some how take that as me sayin the government should provide everyone with the same top class, monthly check up to the physician and dentist health care, and free HIV treatment, then we aint got nothin else to talk about in this regard.

Welcome back pimp. It begins again...

I have not been *tricked* into believing anything. I do my research and I know my stuff. People on the lower end of the income scale are also less likely to read or research. They are the ones who are being "tricked". I'm sure I've read and researched more about money and finances than 99% of the population. I can't afford to be ignorant. Brainwashing the stupid and poor is something the government specializes in.

The poor are not paying more in taxes, and that's a simple fact. Never have, and never will. You do realize that our country has when the bottom 50 percent of the US population pay NO income tax? They're getting a free ride, while the top percentage are paying more in taxes than ever. A person whose income dramatically increases also pays way more in taxes, and they are also TAXED multiple times. Capital gains tax, tax on inheritance, taxes on corporations, etc. While the bottom percentages aren't taxed at all and the middle percentage is only taxed once. I KNOW how the system works because I HAVE a corporation. I can't afford to be ignorant and listen to crap Obama spills, like so many people. Don't post blatant mistruths and then proceed to tell me that I'm "mistaken" or I'm being "tricked".

Who cares of Buffet earns more? He deserves it. Not only does he provide the job, he also has to pay a high cost to keep her around in regulation. He provides a larger service and is harder to replace, he also had to work smarter an harder. Get off of the train of jealousy of people who are more successful than you, because that's exactly what these arguments boil down to. I had to argue this with some other people elsewhere. They eventually admitted they were simply jealous and started posting ridiculous lies about the public sector amongst other things, while I was owning them. The rich don't pay less in taxes and that's a simple fact. Keep in mind that people who pay the 15% are a small amount, and pay a MUCH higher amount at the corporate level. That's why they pay themselves a small salary and want taxes on their salary. To the rich having a salary is not as important as a net worth. You have much to learn in this matter.

I don't give a rats ass if the burden is lesser. Of course a billionaire paying taxes isn't going to hurt his lifestyle as much as a loser who makes 15k and pays 1k. But the fact that you can on here in posted that the rich are paying less taxes is a simple lie, plain and simple. Not only do they pay a higher true amount in taxes, they also pay a much higher percentage as their income grows. Actually the 1% pay 40% themselves, does that sound fair to you? Well yes, because you believe in socialism. But it's wrong. They are carrying the huge burden. Even if you took the income of the poor and added all up, it wouldn't be what the rich pay.

That doesn't even count the public sector of middle class and working class workers, who are eating up tax revenues while not paying anything, and it doesn't even count the fact that most taxes GO towards the middle class and poor people. It is a wealth transfer, it is nothing more than the people at the top getting their money taken and the government writing a check. Did you even bother to read the stats I put up about Obama and the amount of people receiving welfare now? It's disgusting. It's nothing but a free ride at the expense of the hard working, and it also takes away from money that could have *productively* fed the economy instead of it going to government nonsense. What you don't realize is more taxes at the top hurts the people in the bottom because that's less money to pay their employees and start business, it actually drives businesses away from here, as you've already seen with people going overseas. Stop looking at one end and look at the larger frame.

Also, lower income people love to point out Buffett, without even knowing what he's talking about. First of all, he is taxed multiple times, and he even admitted to not wanting his business taxed more, but his salary. He also writes off as many taxes as he can, why do this if you want to pay more taxes? Thing is, we're so broke even if they took *all* of the money of the top, it wouldn't save us at this point.

You're too brainwashed. If you believe that top are paying less taxes, which is what you originally posted. It's nothing but a lie, and it's a lie through and through. EVERYONE should pay equal taxes, and they aren't. Now you are changing it, by stretching the truth, like socialists, and trying to make it about jealousy of the top EARNING more money. If the people at the bottom are too stupid and/or lazy to earn their own money, that doesn't mean the people at the top should carry the load. Here are some links from official websites, and not news propaganda that caters to the stupid and poor for votes. By the way, the vast majority of the rich are self made and had to earn it.

www.taxfoundation.org/news/show/250.html
www.heritage.org/budgetchartbook/top10-percent-income-earners
ntu.org/tax-basics/who-pays-income-taxes.html
wwwwakeupamericans-spree.blogspot.com/2011/10/one-graph-top-ten-percent-paid-70.html
maciverinstitute.com/2012/01/top-10-percent-paid-70-percent-of-federal-income-tax/

So either retract your statement that the rich pay less taxes in this country, or admit that you're mistaken. I don't appreciate it when people post things that aren't true or tell me I'm wrong or lying when I'm actually telling the truth. I know how the system works, I have to know because it's how I make my money. I'm not sitting in one of these socialist colleges believing this garbage, or believing the garbage that Obama spouts. Buffett is just trying to look cool before the public, and he's probably more of a puppet than anything at this point. Thing is, the people at the top not only pay more in taxes, they also pay more in charity too. They make up the bulk of money given out to it. So who's really being less generous? Also, Buffett is very old and it's very funny he wants to pay more taxes all of the sudden when he never did before.

And please? Manning up? That bullshit is used to try and shame another group into doing something like when women try to shame men to carry their dead weight. It is not the job of the productive to carry the unproductive. It is the job of every American to pay their fair share, and when the bottom 50% are being carried by the rest, they aren't doing their fair share. Don't dare tell me it's because of "bad luck" it's laziness and entitlement plain and simple. Never have we ever had such a welfare country in this history and it's fucking us up. By the way, even if the rich paid ALL of their income in taxes, we'd still be in the hole because we have so much money we're behind on paying. Trillions of dollars, it wouldn't make a damned difference. Then you are being brainwashed by rich politicians like Obama who don't pay taxes at all? Simply preposterous. To suggest the the top people pay ALL of the taxes, while they already pay the majority, allow the rest to have a free ride at their expense is nothing but blatant socialism. You've already made it quite clear you want the people at the bottom to have massive entitlements at the expense of the top when we already can't afford it, and it's already hurting the economy when we are already lacking in things like jobs because it is just too expensive to do anymore.

Uh. And no, most people in this country are poor from their own decisions. You may have a very small percentage of poor people who are poor because of other circumstances of their own doing, but it isn't the majority. Keep in mind I grew up dirt poor in one of the poorest parts of the US. There are next to no people in this country who are absolutely poor, they are only relatively poor to the top. That's it. People this country who are poor and middle class are still in the one percent compared to the rest of the world, if they are so much into "giving" then they need to liquidate their own assets and start forking it over to other countries, because we're way ahead. And we're not ahead of other countries because of welfare handouts. It was because America used to produce something real, besides debt.

It is not because of "bad luck" that is nothing but a poor excuse and I'm getting tired of people making excuses, it's such a loser mentality. Most Americans blatantly spend more than they earn on shit they can't afford, and then complain they don't have any money at the end of the day. The poor ARE stupider on average and that's a fact. They are more likely to have kids out of wedlock, they are more likely to abuse drugs and go to jail. That's not an opinion, that's reality. I grew up in an area like this. You want to take the failures of the poor and stupid, and blame the top like every group of poor people have done before in history. It's not going to work, and again the people in bed with the government are a VERY small percentage of the rich and they are hurting the rest who are legitimate in this country and hurting you. But morons keep voting socialists in like Obama thinking he's going to make a difference. The government is the problem, not the rich. The problem is the poor, and women, and a lot of minorities see the government as a giant tit of magic that need to be milked out of, and are stupidly willing to give their votes away thinking that the government will make things go away when they are in reality causing the problems. This is why democracy is a failure.

Have you bothered to see what Obamacare entails? Nope, most people in the lower and middle class vote for socialist crap like this without even knowing what it mandates and then blame others. Of course if government controls something they get to have a say in it. That's why they want your money. The poor have done very much to ruin this country, the middle class have too. They have destroyed top level business like the automotive businesses with their greed, in a lot of ways they are the greediest because they want something for nothing at the expense of others and that's stealing , nothing but raw greed, but they can't see that they are richer than most of the world.

The government subsidizing schools has made it so expensive that it puts people in great debt, and they are largely responsible for the trillion dollar loan debt. Not subsidizing it would have kept it cheaper. The government is responsible for the housing market going up, because they backed these companies, now health care is going up. Do you see the trend here? Whenever the government subsidizes something, it becomes MORE expensive for poor people. That's how the trend works, because people start to abuse the system.

By the way I never wanted those companies to get bailed out, that's the government doing that crap. The government others believe in. But hey if they are paying trillions of dollars out to the poor and stupid in terms of welfare money, I guess they wanted to send some of that money up to the top? People who fail, whether rich or poor should not get a free ride at the expense of others. It's this entitlement mentality that's destroying everything.

I haven't taken what you said to the extreme, you've done that to me. I said people shouldn't be taken care of at the expense of others. You believe so, plain and simple. Doesn't matter what "degree" you entail (which is a lot), but it is too much. Our country was never based around this philosophy and for a good reason. People aren't entitled to someone else's services and hard work because they exist, plain and simple. It's entitlement and stealing. The poor here are in the 1% and aren't starving on the road, they have cars, houses, and television sets, mostly at the expense of others. If they can't be bothered to save for healthcare, that's their own problem. One thing they can stop doing is having so many children.

[navycorpsman]

Feb 17, 2012 18:38:31 GMT -5 Coolest thing Alive said:

Sad really. They've really fixed the market to where you have to play ball or die fast. Sounds to me though, like you did the right thing, to me anyway. Do you regret your decisions?

I somewhat regret selling the company off to a very large well known software giant. Don't get me wrong, I LIKE the money they paid for it. But, I do wonder if I would have been able to keep things going AND keep my sanity and principles intact. Looking back, I think it was my principles of valuing my co-workers that made me realize that the company was doomed as long as I owned it. Of course, the way things worked out, it was doomed as soon as I sold it, as well.

Between the day I posted my last message in this thread, and this one, I got a phone call from a former co-worker who just recently started his own software firm, and he has already gotten offers to buy him out. He wanted my advice on selling it, and general life advice as well... he's single, and if he sells, will be a millionaire, even after taxes. Basically, I told him to look into the future and realize that his freedom means a lot more than just the ability to sell software. But, it was up to him to determine just EXACTLY what his freedom means.

[navycorpsman]

For a brief time during World War II, the top rate of income tax was 94%.

hxxp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Income_tax_in_the_United_States#History_of_top_rates

Obviously, that's an extreme example, during wartime, but the concept still applies. Arguments abound on both sides of taxation, but to distill it down to the barest essence, redistribution of wealth does NOT make people not-poor. There was a joke during the Clinton years where Hillary Clinton fought tooth and nail to give every poor person in the US a $100,000 income credit. According to the joke, she got it through Congress, whereupon the entire population of poor turned into Republicans and demanded lower tax rates.

[The Big Daddy C-Master]

I guess it depends. Some would rather take their money and enjoy their time. I want both. Make my money work for me *and* enjoy my time. Some do well selling off their business, but many spend it all or get into a bad investment. I'm more of a cash flow guy I suppose.

Feb 18, 2012 16:07:31 GMT -5 navycorpsman said:

For a brief time during World War II, the top rate of income tax was 94%.

hxxp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Income_tax_in_the_United_States#History_of_top_rates

Obviously, that's an extreme example, during wartime, but the concept still applies. Arguments abound on both sides of taxation, but to distill it down to the barest essence, redistribution of wealth does NOT make people not-poor. There was a joke during the Clinton years where Hillary Clinton fought tooth and nail to give every poor person in the US a $100,000 income credit. According to the joke, she got it through Congress, whereupon the entire population of poor turned into Republicans and demanded lower tax rates.

That's how it goes isn't it? The people get an easy ride and want to keep the others down.

With that very high tax rate, which I believe was during War and some during Eisenhower, was generally to build up military resources. Which is what taxes were orginially for. Before the early 1900's we had no income tax at all. The thing was, during the 94% tax, there were much more write offs on taxes before the late 80's if I'm not mistaken where they changed the tax code drastically. It was also easier to hide income as there was less technology then and it was much easier to lie. I doubt anybody really ever gave up 95 cents on the dollar, there would be no incentive to work.

If a person was ultra wealthy and didn't need to work, and only did it to grow their business or for whatever other reason, they definitely wouldn't want to work if they were losing 95 cents on the dollar. The leisure alternative outweighs the small amount of money you'd make for your trouble.

That said, even if we were taxed 100% we wouldn't stop the mess we're in lol. Keep in mind I don't mind helping others. I just don't like the entitlement mentality and the lies that men like Obama use to cultivate it. Poverty is a mindset. I say this again and again.

[The Big Daddy C-Master]