There are no real "poor" in the US.

[The Big Daddy C-Master]

This just proves what I've said all along. People aren't entitled to anything, and the "poor' here are living way better than people in most parts of the world, but it isn't enough.

campaign2012.washingtonexaminer.com/blogs/beltway-confidential/feds-%E2%80%98poor%E2%80%99-consume-rich/348206

As President Obama crafts a reelection income equality message aimed at punishing the rich and rewarding the poor, his own government finds that the 46 million living below the so-called “poverty line” live and spend pretty much like everyone else.

Forget the image of Appalachia or rundown ghettos: A collection of federal household consumption surveys collected by pollster Scott Rasmussen finds that 74 percent of the poor own a car or truck, 70 percent have a VCR, 64 percent have a DVD, 63 percent have cable or satellite, 53 percent have a video game system, 50 percent have a computer, 30 percent have two or more cars and 23 percent use TiVo.

“What the government defines as poverty is vastly different from what most Americans envision,” he writes in his newly released book, “The People’s Money.” Consider other details from two recent Department of Agriculture surveys cited in the book:

--On an average day, just 1 percent of households have someone who is forced to miss a meal.

--On any day, children are hungry in .25 percent of U.S. homes.

--96 percent of poor parents say their children were never hungry during the year because they couldn’t afford food.

--83 percent of the poor said they have enough to eat.

Says Rasmussen, “About 40 million Americans are officially defined as living below the poverty line. Yet most of those have adequate levels of food, shelter, clothing and medical care. Sixty-three percent of American adults believe such a family is not living in poverty,” he writes. “Only 16 percent believe that a family is living in poverty if it has two color televisions, cable or satellite TV, a DVD player, and a VCR, but that’s what the average family living in poverty has as defined by the U.S. government,” he adds.

Rasmussen, who condemns Washington for ignoring the public’s will to run out sky-high deficits, doesn’t mean to criticize households with earnings of $22,314, the 2010 poverty level for a family of four, but finds that the nation believes too much is being spent on welfare.

According to his polling in the new book, 71 percent believe too many are receiving federal welfare benefits and would like to see official measures of poverty tightened to reduce the number of eligible participants.

The president, however, is going the other way and even reviving plans to help homeowners refinance their mortgages, an idea similar to a stimulus-era idea that in part led to the Tea Party movement. Plus, Rasmussen reveals, the administration’s spending on means-tested programs like food stamps, public housing assistance, weatherization spending and others “is slated to continue growing dramatically even after the recession comes to an end.”

[navycorpsman]

I've known a few 'poor' people because I was born into true poverty, but it's very difficult to compare standards of living across the entire globe. Knowing that there are people who genuinely do not know where the next meal is going to come from, does not negate the reality that there are individuals in the USA who are 'poor'. But, stealing from the rich and giving to the 'poor' won't solve poverty, it just substitutes government for charity, adding in the strength of law as passed by people who understand how to keep power.

I once spent a LOT of time researching charities that actually spend their money feeding the humans they claimed to be representing. After 9/11/2001 and the rather interesting fallout that some charities dealt with when they stopped helping those people affected, I became VERY choosy how I gave money away. After the Haitian earthquake, I picked a single charity and sent what was for me, a large sum of money. After the scandals broke about how Haitian politicians and law enforcement were siphoning off money from nearly all charitable contributions, the one I picked was found to be nearly free of scandal. One cannot expect perfection from anyone else, and sometimes political corruption is what one must endure to actually make some sort of difference.

You also have to recognize that, in a country where the standard of living is so high, 'poor' has a vastly different definition. The current administration has a vested interest in keeping those poor people poor. Welfare was initially meant to help those who actually cannot work, and eventually turned into helping anyone who stumbled in their life. By the time I hit college, welfare became a method by which certain political philosophies could ensure themselves access to power, simply by giving the voters what they wanted.

[The Big Daddy C-Master]

Feb 1, 2012 16:47:22 GMT -5 navycorpsman said:

I've known a few 'poor' people because I was born into true poverty, but it's very difficult to compare standards of living across the entire globe. Knowing that there are people who genuinely do not know where the next meal is going to come from, does not negate the reality that there are individuals in the USA who are 'poor'. But, stealing from the rich and giving to the 'poor' won't solve poverty, it just substitutes government for charity, adding in the strength of law as passed by people who understand how to keep power.

I once spent a LOT of time researching charities that actually spend their money feeding the humans they claimed to be representing. After 9/11/2001 and the rather interesting fallout that some charities dealt with when they stopped helping those people affected, I became VERY choosy how I gave money away. After the Haitian earthquake, I picked a single charity and sent what was for me, a large sum of money. After the scandals broke about how Haitian politicians and law enforcement were siphoning off money from nearly all charitable contributions, the one I picked was found to be nearly free of scandal. One cannot expect perfection from anyone else, and sometimes political corruption is what one must endure to actually make some sort of difference.

You also have to recognize that, in a country where the standard of living is so high, 'poor' has a vastly different definition. The current administration has a vested interest in keeping those poor people poor. Welfare was initially meant to help those who actually cannot work, and eventually turned into helping anyone who stumbled in their life. By the time I hit college, welfare became a method by which certain political philosophies could ensure themselves access to power, simply by giving the voters what they wanted.

I agree with you that there are different meanings for poor, but based off of the dictionary definition, "Having enough resources to attain basic needs." Based on this I'd say there are next to no "poor" people. There is *always access to food, shelter, and clothing, even in prison"!

I myself as I've said before grew up extremely poor in Clarksdale Mississippi (which is the highest teenage pregnancy rate in the nation). I've seen gangs, single mothers galore, and I still go there to visit family. Now of course they don't have anything near what I have, but they definitely have food, clothing, and shelter, often at someone else's expense. Their idea of "poor" as often is in America, is someone who has more "stuff" than I do. Not realizing they could have nice things if they didn't make so many bad decisions, like have 3 kids by 20 years old.

My definition of poor is "a mindset that keeps people lacking. People poor in health will continue to eat bad food, and complain they can't get in shape, all while practicing the same habits. This is definitely common in America, where people want a quick fix for everything.

People with money who have a poor mindset just end up poor again, in the future. Look at the lottery winner and athletes/musicians who blow it all. These people usually come from poor backgrounds, make lots of money, and then blow it all as soon as they get it.

I myself am all for helping people who want to be helped meaning they are making an active effort. Helping people means helping them be self sufficient, not just subsidizing bad behavior. I made it a habit to give 10% of earnings to this cause. Thing is, some people just want the easy way out, these people are losers. Before we had these welfare systems we helped those out in our community if they had a hard time, but if they expected to get a free ride, they were cut off. This socialist idea of "it's good to be generous and have a big heart" is ironic since they forcefully take our money away to give to others. Not to mention the ones who cry about having a big heart give nothing.

A true judge of character is how generous you are when you *don't* have anything.

Be careful with those charities. I've been wanting to give to men's causes as I see that many of these charities are giving to things like women's shelters, while 85% of homeless people in the US are men. It's quite sad how they try to line their own pockets. I agree with you about doing your research.

[navycorpsman]

I think those that actually cannot meet basic needs are those that have homeless status, usually unemployed and unemployable (for reasons we won't go into here). There are just too many safety nets in existence in the USA for people to starve.

Bad decisions... well. Everyone is entitled to a bad attitude, but not bad behavior. We've all screwed up, sooner or later... I would not even care to count the number of times I have done stupid things. Thing is, I learned from it... many many do not learn. I was born on a reservation, where welfare state is a state of mind as much as anything. Lots of people die that way, alone, miserable and in pain.

I like your point about helping those that want to be helped... Clinton called it a hand-up, not a hand-out, then kept on giving hand-outs. So much for welfare reform. Community used to mean a lot, even in bigger cities... now it's all me me me and f--- the world. It's why I sold my company, it's why we moved from the left coast, and most of all, it's why we decided to ghost. Sooner or later, those Greek riots will be repeated in large cities across America, once gold hits about $2000-2500 an ounce.

Womens' shelters... yeah... uh..... I spent a week in jail after volunteering at a shelter. Control freak came in to get his wife, made the mistake of putting his hands on MY wife. No more volunteering, no nothing for shelters after that.

[The Big Daddy C-Master]

Feb 1, 2012 22:23:49 GMT -5 navycorpsman said:

I think those that actually cannot meet basic needs are those that have homeless status, usually unemployed and unemployable (for reasons we won't go into here). There are just too many safety nets in existence in the USA for people to starve.

Bad decisions... well. Everyone is entitled to a bad attitude, but not bad behavior. We've all screwed up, sooner or later... I would not even care to count the number of times I have done stupid things. Thing is, I learned from it... many many do not learn. I was born on a reservation, where welfare state is a state of mind as much as anything. Lots of people die that way, alone, miserable and in pain.

I like your point about helping those that want to be helped... Clinton called it a hand-up, not a hand-out, then kept on giving hand-outs. So much for welfare reform. Community used to mean a lot, even in bigger cities... now it's all me me me and f--- the world. It's why I sold my company, it's why we moved from the left coast, and most of all, it's why we decided to ghost. Sooner or later, those Greek riots will be repeated in large cities across America, once gold hits about $2000-2500 an ounce.

Womens' shelters... yeah... uh..... I spent a week in jail after volunteering at a shelter. Control freak came in to get his wife, made the mistake of putting his hands on MY wife. No more volunteering, no nothing for shelters after that.

True, only if you are homeless, and there are benefits even then. People don't realize much about homeless people. I've had numerous successful friends of mine offer jobs to these people to get them on their feet, when they didn't like the job or the amount paid, they said they'd be better off starving.

Yea, you're supposed to learn from your failures, most people don't want to do this, they want ot get the easy way out.

Well, Detriot is already crumbling, and becoming a mess. California is already bad. But yea, people will find out what happens when this system is started, it will always lead to disaster. Always.

Lol, you worked at one, what was that like?

[navycorpsman]

Don't even THINK about working at a woman's shelter, now. You think the world is f-ed up now, you think women are freaking insane now....


Just don't do it. Half the women started the fights that went on every night, the other half stayed in their rooms and shot up, drank or spent every moment on the phone, trying to get the hell out of there. I won't even tell you what the kids were like, I've been through Clarksdale.

I spent a year in Beirut, and I'd rather go back there, than ever try to help out like that again. I admire the intent behind them, but it's just not a smart thing for a male, married or not, to do. When the DA offered me a plea that involved community service, I asked, "What's that?"

"Oh you know, picking up trash, volunteering at a.... uhh maybe we should look at this again."

I said, "Yeah, listen, I'm not really interested in a plea, you'll play hell trying to convict me of hurting a man who was hitting my wife. Justifiable and all that."

He looked startled, "Oh... I thought you were the assailant hitting the woman at a shelter."

My lawyer nearly bugged his eyes out of his head. "You'd better have my client out of here in less than an hour, or we file a lawsuit against the city and the shelter."

That shelter burned to the ground about ten years ago.

[The Big Daddy C-Master]

Feb 2, 2012 0:51:23 GMT -5 navycorpsman said:

Don't even THINK about working at a woman's shelter, now. You think the world is f-ed up now, you think women are freaking insane now....


Just don't do it. Half the women started the fights that went on every night, the other half stayed in their rooms and shot up, drank or spent every moment on the phone, trying to get the hell out of there. I won't even tell you what the kids were like, I've been through Clarksdale.

I spent a year in Beirut, and I'd rather go back there, than ever try to help out like that again. I admire the intent behind them, but it's just not a smart thing for a male, married or not, to do. When the DA offered me a plea that involved community service, I asked, "What's that?"

"Oh you know, picking up trash, volunteering at a.... uhh maybe we should look at this again."

I said, "Yeah, listen, I'm not really interested in a plea, you'll play hell trying to convict me of hurting a man who was hitting my wife. Justifiable and all that."

He looked startled, "Oh... I thought you were the assailant hitting the woman at a shelter."

My lawyer nearly bugged his eyes out of his head. "You'd better have my client out of here in less than an hour, or we file a lawsuit against the city and the shelter."

That shelter burned to the ground about ten years ago.

Oh I wouldn't go CLOSE to one. I was just curious. I don't need to add to my stress being around nutcases. That sounds like a crazy shelter.

I remember the *very* short time I worked I had nothing but women problems, but not for the typical reasons. Instead of it being me trying to hit on some girl (I wasn't, I believe work is for you know... working). I had girls trying to hit on me, and competing. It got stupid because there was a girl jealous of her sister liking me. She told the new manager, who was her family friend that I had hit or pushed her. He said he'd fire both of us, but of course she was still there. I still had my business, but I didn't like being lied on. So, every woman liking you leads to drama. Thankfully I don't have to worry about jobs anymore, so it's not an issue, and I'll never go back either.

[navycorpsman]

They all lie, C-master. It's part of their wiring. Men lie, but far less frequently to hurt someone else, more likely to advance their own agenda.

[The Big Daddy C-Master]

Yep, sounds about right. Not an issue anymore though, but some people are really compulsive liars. She got caught stealing, and it backfired later. I told everyone "See... I told you." But they already knew. She also lost her leg, so what goes around comes around, although by the time that happened I wasn't even worried about it.

[navycorpsman]

Yeah, I absorbed just enough of the hippie culture to understand Karma. *shrugs* And the world keeps turning.... and all we can do is, do our best by ourselves and family and friends. It's enough, I hope.

[The Big Daddy C-Master]

Let's hope so. People end up getting their just desserts, seems like the US will be getting that too.

[Coolest thing Alive]

I don't understand how this disproves that there are genuinely poor people accordin to American standards. And rather there's a Democratic president or a Republican president, their intentions are all the same. The government creates and strengthens welfare programs to enable and hinder certain groups of people to remain in power. The government makes people lazy for a reason.

[navycorpsman]

According to American standards, no one is arguing that there are poor people. According to world standards, there are very few poor, truly poor, in America. Since the Little Depression started, that number has risen, along with the homeless numbers, and I suspect that they're pretty much the same people.

I agree with you on the enabling behavior by the government, in order to keep political power and relevance, but the real issue becomes one of degree. How poor are they? Can the government actually help to get them on their feet, or will they allow waste, fraud and corruption to ruin the intent of the social welfare laws? Even if the govt CAN help them on their feet, WILL the govt actually do so? Judging by your comment, Coolest, I think you agree that the intent of social welfare has been largely ignored for 40+ years, while the system has bloated into a willing parasite.

Meanwhile, 20 million or more (don't know really how many) people have been raised from childhood without a single reference to personal responsibility, and we only have ourselves to blame. These people are SCREWED if this economic crises deepens, and no one has any idea how to 'fix it', without throwing even more paper money at the problem.

That's where riots will happen... those who are dependent on the govt for nearly everything, and when the govt starts to reduce entitlements, including Social Security, they will spend 24 hours without access to food, and then they riot. One week, tops.

[The Big Daddy C-Master]

Entitlement isn't "helping" anybody, it's no different than giving a drug addict their fix. It's just temporary relief before they come back again for more.

Feb 6, 2012 12:28:08 GMT -5 Coolest thing Alive said:

I don't understand how this disproves that there are genuinely poor people accordin to American standards. And rather there's a Democratic president or a Republican president, their intentions are all the same. The government creates and strengthens welfare programs to enable and hinder certain groups of people to remain in power. The government makes people lazy for a reason.

There aren't. And people make themselves lazy because they want an easy way out. The government gives it to them to stay into power.

Yes it does prove people in the US have chances and are not really "poor".

There is a difference between relative poverty and absolute poverty. Absolute poverty is not having enough resources to feed, clothe, and find shelter for yourself.

Relative poverty is what we see here, people keeping up with the Joneses and are jealous that the other person has more than they do and lives in a better community.

People who are poor in this country have a house, car, and plasma screens with smart phones. They have access to grants and scholarships, fresh drinking water, free food if they need it, etc. They aren't really "poor, and to say otherwise is a lie. They are only poor in sense.

The US is the only country where the poor people are fatter than the rich people.

[navycorpsman]

Well, I wouldn't call it a lie, more like a purposeful misstatement. Americans are rather well known for not thinking of other countries in the same sense that we think of our own. At least, in general they do not... I wonder sometimes, why this is so, but it's not a big worry for me.

No, absolute poverty is quite rare in the USA, and like I said before, oftentimes it is associated with someone being homeless and unemployable, for some reason. Romney was correct in that there are a LOT of safety nets, but one has to know the system, or at least be able to mentally comprehend it.

By American standards, there are plenty of people who are poor, relative to America, yes. By my standards, 90+% are poor. By Warren Buffet's standards, by Bill Gates' standards, 99% of Americans are poor. But I know someone who owns a two year old Cadillac, rents a house at $3000 a month, and has a lot of 'things', material goods that he does not actually need to live. Yet, somehow, this person qualified for food stamps. Is it fraud, I dunno, is it bullshit... well yeah. He has a job, he supports seven kids, three of which actually live with him and his wife.

Is he poor? No. I'm constantly confused by the amount of crap he buys, and then complains he has no money at the end of the month. He has completely bought into the consumer orientation of society, and he will end up regretting it, in my opinion.

But he calls himself poor, by the standards of America. It's not a lie, but it is a deliberate bending of the truth. It's a method by which politicians assure themselves of winning elections, by convincing people they are poor and need help. Of course the govt makes people lazy, and for them to do anything else would be political suicide.

Truth is, 90% of those poor people in America don't actually give a damn about the political process or why they're still poor, relative to the other classes. They just do not care, it's too damned difficult to think about it. They probably could understand, given a bit of time to educate them, but again, a large majority only know that the present situation works to their advantage. Why change that?

To quote another old proverb.. it is ignorance or apathy? I don't know and I don't care.

All you can do is take care of yourself, and your loved ones. Do what it takes, make your plans, goals and work very hard to meet them. This sets you apart from those 90% who do not know or care. If things actually do fall to pieces, you have your emergency plan ready to go, and you go. If nothing does happen, keep working towards the goals you set. Either way, you survive, and live well.

[The Big Daddy C-Master]

Feb 7, 2012 15:55:35 GMT -5 navycorpsman said:

Well, I wouldn't call it a lie, more like a purposeful misstatement. Americans are rather well known for not thinking of other countries in the same sense that we think of our own. At least, in general they do not... I wonder sometimes, why this is so, but it's not a big worry for me.

No, absolute poverty is quite rare in the USA, and like I said before, oftentimes it is associated with someone being homeless and unemployable, for some reason. Romney was correct in that there are a LOT of safety nets, but one has to know the system, or at least be able to mentally comprehend it.

By American standards, there are plenty of people who are poor, relative to America, yes. By my standards, 90+% are poor. By Warren Buffet's standards, by Bill Gates' standards, 99% of Americans are poor. But I know someone who owns a two year old Cadillac, rents a house at $3000 a month, and has a lot of 'things', material goods that he does not actually need to live. Yet, somehow, this person qualified for food stamps. Is it fraud, I dunno, is it bullshit... well yeah. He has a job, he supports seven kids, three of which actually live with him and his wife.

Is he poor? No. I'm constantly confused by the amount of crap he buys, and then complains he has no money at the end of the month. He has completely bought into the consumer orientation of society, and he will end up regretting it, in my opinion.

But he calls himself poor, by the standards of America. It's not a lie, but it is a deliberate bending of the truth. It's a method by which politicians assure themselves of winning elections, by convincing people they are poor and need help. Of course the govt makes people lazy, and for them to do anything else would be political suicide.

Truth is, 90% of those poor people in America don't actually give a damn about the political process or why they're still poor, relative to the other classes. They just do not care, it's too damned difficult to think about it. They probably could understand, given a bit of time to educate them, but again, a large majority only know that the present situation works to their advantage. Why change that?

To quote another old proverb.. it is ignorance or apathy? I don't know and I don't care.

All you can do is take care of yourself, and your loved ones. Do what it takes, make your plans, goals and work very hard to meet them. This sets you apart from those 90% who do not know or care. If things actually do fall to pieces, you have your emergency plan ready to go, and you go. If nothing does happen, keep working towards the goals you set. Either way, you survive, and live well.

A purposeful bending of the truth is a lie as far as I'm concerned, especially for purposeful gain.

Absolutely, everything is relative. And the system is ridiculous in allowing people to engage in lifestyle hypergamy that they shouldn't be able to get. I don't know if I mentioned on my website, but there was a person who was a friend of a friend of mine, we all live in a top level area. His friend hates this system so he wanted to prove a point. He lost money in a businesss, but still lives VERY well and in a Country Club area. He ended up qualifying for EBT for $387 a month, which is nothing to him. The system is to easy to exploit. People don't bother reading up on anything, they just votes for whoever gives something for nothing. People just want a free ride. and these people take from those who could legitimately use help. Which is another problem.

[navycorpsman]

I strongly suspect the free rides are going to disappear within the next few years. About the only thing that could stop financial meltdown would be for the USA, the UK, probably France and Germany, possibly Russia, and almost certainly China, to tell the bankers, the brokers and the bond ratings systems that they're required to lie to the world.

It probably would take no more than 1000 to 2000 people to lie well enough, if the rewards outweigh the risk. Possibly even fewer, depending on how compartmentalized a given conglomerate is.

Meantime, I just learned how to forge-weld iron today. Next, heat treatment of low carbon steel, then high carbon steel.

[The Big Daddy C-Master]

Feb 7, 2012 23:33:00 GMT -5 navycorpsman said:

I strongly suspect the free rides are going to disappear within the next few years. About the only thing that could stop financial meltdown would be for the USA, the UK, probably France and Germany, possibly Russia, and almost certainly China, to tell the bankers, the brokers and the bond ratings systems that they're required to lie to the world.

It probably would take no more than 1000 to 2000 people to lie well enough, if the rewards outweigh the risk. Possibly even fewer, depending on how compartmentalized a given conglomerate is.

Meantime, I just learned how to forge-weld iron today. Next, heat treatment of low carbon steel, then high carbon steel.

If we raise the interest rates, we'll be in very big trouble. We have to pay that money back sooner or later.

[navycorpsman]

Feb 7, 2012 23:56:02 GMT -5 The Big Daddy C-Master said:

Feb 7, 2012 23:33:00 GMT -5 navycorpsman said:

I strongly suspect the free rides are going to disappear within the next few years. About the only thing that could stop financial meltdown would be for the USA, the UK, probably France and Germany, possibly Russia, and almost certainly China, to tell the bankers, the brokers and the bond ratings systems that they're required to lie to the world.

It probably would take no more than 1000 to 2000 people to lie well enough, if the rewards outweigh the risk. Possibly even fewer, depending on how compartmentalized a given conglomerate is.

Meantime, I just learned how to forge-weld iron today. Next, heat treatment of low carbon steel, then high carbon steel.

If we raise the interest rates, we'll be in very big trouble. We have to pay that money back sooner or later.

Actually... we don't. Stop and think about it. The public debt is merely a promise to pay. With paper money, made by those who promised to pay. No one really talks about it, but there are plenty of examples in history, of hyper inflated currency due to simple overprinting. At one point in the Wiemar Republic, inflation hit something like one million percent in a single week.

And for the most part, many people forget that the debt we owe, we owe to ourselves, quite literally. Except for relatively small amounts to foreign nations such as China, (800 billion vs 17 trillion or so) the public debt is simply carried forward every fiscal year. Media talking about 'paying interest' on the deficit is just that... talk. No one actually sends a check to the Treasury Dept, paying on interest... do they?

When the problem becomes one of passing on money to government employees, NOW there is a payback issue. Now you have to print more paper to pay those obligations. Err... that is, you have to make more electronic money, because the Federal Reserve does not actually print money, they just authorize issue of money by electronic means. From all I have been able to find, there is quite a discrepancy between what currency is in circulation, and actual money that the Fed says exists. Ask anybody you know, who gets Social Security, and find out when they last got a check in the mail. It's all autodeposit now, and most govt employees also get paid by autodeposit. Don't actually have to print that money, do they? And unless you're a semi-genius, no one is going to counterfeit binary code e-money.

The other implications are left to the reader as an exercise.

[The Big Daddy C-Master]

Feb 8, 2012 23:33:12 GMT -5 navycorpsman said:

Feb 7, 2012 23:56:02 GMT -5 The Big Daddy C-Master said:

If we raise the interest rates, we'll be in very big trouble. We have to pay that money back sooner or later.

Actually... we don't. Stop and think about it. The public debt is merely a promise to pay. With paper money, made by those who promised to pay. No one really talks about it, but there are plenty of examples in history, of hyper inflated currency due to simple overprinting. At one point in the Wiemar Republic, inflation hit something like one million percent in a single week.

And for the most part, many people forget that the debt we owe, we owe to ourselves, quite literally. Except for relatively small amounts to foreign nations such as China, (800 billion vs 17 trillion or so) the public debt is simply carried forward every fiscal year. Media talking about 'paying interest' on the deficit is just that... talk. No one actually sends a check to the Treasury Dept, paying on interest... do they?

When the problem becomes one of passing on money to government employees, NOW there is a payback issue. Now you have to print more paper to pay those obligations. Err... that is, you have to make more electronic money, because the Federal Reserve does not actually print money, they just authorize issue of money by electronic means. From all I have been able to find, there is quite a discrepancy between what currency is in circulation, and actual money that the Fed says exists. Ask anybody you know, who gets Social Security, and find out when they last got a check in the mail. It's all autodeposit now, and most govt employees also get paid by autodeposit. Don't actually have to print that money, do they? And unless you're a semi-genius, no one is going to counterfeit binary code e-money.

The other implications are left to the reader as an exercise.

I think we will never pay it back, but it is expected of us. The dollar has gotten so weak they have to keep the interest artificially low to encourage spending. People should be saving more and producing more anyways. But you're right, and as I've said, we don't have money. We simply have currency that is worth squat. We stopped having money long ago. I wonder how much longer we'll stay as the reserve currency if this keeps up?

[navycorpsman]

Not long. The single worst enemy of capitalism, of the free market, is the fact that there is a cycle of bear and bull markets. Regular people, like those on this board, do not know how to make money from a bear market, only the financial whiz kids can do that. And when you throw in an extended bear market, like a recession, businesses which could easily prosper and grow, sometimes actually fail. The loss of jobs plus the lower spending across all classes creates a self reinforcing downturn, and the whiz kids do not understand how to fix that.

I saw on TV the other day, the approval rating of Congress has fallen to 10%. I think this next round of elections will either touch off a large change in our government, or it will doom us to a quick financial collapse, followed by a far worse collapse of society itself.

[The Big Daddy C-Master]

Exactly, some of the most powerful businesses grow under a bad economy. I've found things much cheaper than before, and also you have cheap housing that can be rented out. That's what's going on now. A small percentage of people are paying cash for cheap housing and renting it out for 10x the mortgage rate. I've seen cheaper vehicles, equipment, and tech. The thing is most don't want to look at a solution, they want to focus on the problem. I have been persistent myself and refined my target audience so that it works for me in this economy. Ups and downs are just a reality of any economy. People never prepare for the down part so they are caught with their pants down and forced to adjust. Even people who are good with calculators and made good grades in school, often can't handle the downward pressure and don't know how to react when it hits them in the face. I have tried to give out pointers to people, but it often is a waste of breath.

10%? Wow. Things are going downhill, and this is exactly why I'm looking to move out of the US.