How does Street Fighter 4 Compare?

[Frisky The Wolf Lord]

Note to all: These posts were moved from the thread:

"Capcom applies for new Trademark for Darkstalkers."

thacmaster.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=compdiscussion&action=display&thread=1363

This is to keep the discussion on topic. Now back to the regular program.

Mar 26, 2012 21:41:12 GMT -5 Coolest thing Alive said:

The guy did make the Sfiv and ssfiv, so I give him some credit

Still the best fighters this gen, easily. In fact, my favorite fighters since 3S. I haven't the slightest idea on how badly they tumbled down hill after that. You resurrected Jesus and then crucified him again. Way to go Capcom!

I thought they were going to knock it out of the park with MVC3.

[The Big Daddy C-Master]

KOF XIII is the best fighter this gen. Plays like the oldschool games without all of the trash and comeback mechanics thrown in. No silly autoblock system, no long reversal windows, ultra combos, x-factors, gems, and other silliness. Plays like a high execution *real* fighting game with no bullshit. Love SF4 though and the characters, it just doesn't compare to the old school.

[Frisky The Wolf Lord]

Apr 10, 2012 1:35:14 GMT -5 The Big Daddy C-Master said:

KOF XIII is the best fighter this gen. Plays like the oldschool games without all of the trash and comeback mechanics thrown in. No silly autoblock system, no long reversal windows, ultra combos, x-factors, gems, and other silliness. Plays like a high execution *real* fighting game with no bullshit. Love SF4 though and the characters, it just doesn't compare to the old school.

That's your opinion and that's cool. KOFXIII is 2nd best this gen, for me.

Plays like an old school fighter and like most old school fighters, the balance disparities are very noticeable in comparison to SFIV. You may hear me preach about old school fighters a lot, but they are far from perfect. They have serious problems that the new school fighters don't have. For what it makes up for by not having comeback mechanics, it loses in strategy. It's a rushdown game while in SFIV, there were rushdowns, keep aways, emphasis on zoning, footsies, etc.....SFIV focused a lot more on the basics and had a satisfying balance between them, like SFII. KOFXIII reversal windows were TOO short, allowing you to spam and get away with really scrubby tactics at point blank range, which your not supposed to be able to do. Reversals make people think twice about making stupid decisions. Scrubs complain about SFIV's reversal windows because they like to do ultras and DPs on wake up and not get punished, big time, for it. That coupled with the overall rushdown-centric gameplay takes away from the thought and meta games that SFIV posses, unfortunately, by a WIDE margin over KOFXIII. More people play SFIV so there's better competition. KOFXIII has too many infinities, every character has, at least, one. Some infinities, far more practical than others, lending more issues to the overall balance problems. There is no auto blocking in SFIV, don't know where you got that from. Neither are there gems or X-Factor, both of which a FAR worse than Ultras. And so you know, SFIV plays more like an old school SF game than KOF XIII plays like and old school KOF game. Best KOF is still 02 UM, hands down. Now 02 UM IS better than SFIV.

Both are great games, it's just about your preference. SFIV has perfect balance between casuals and hardcore and KOFXIII is all hardcore......and while KOFXIII is almost totally different form any other KOF, it still manages to keep many of the unfortunate aspects in from the older KOF games. SFIV is SF and thus, the thinking man's fighting game, while KOFXIII is far more offensive and execution heavy.

[The Big Daddy C-Master]

Apr 10, 2012 15:53:35 GMT -5 Frisky The Wolf Lord said:

Apr 10, 2012 1:35:14 GMT -5 The Big Daddy C-Master said:

KOF XIII is the best fighter this gen. Plays like the oldschool games without all of the trash and comeback mechanics thrown in. No silly autoblock system, no long reversal windows, ultra combos, x-factors, gems, and other silliness. Plays like a high execution *real* fighting game with no bullshit. Love SF4 though and the characters, it just doesn't compare to the old school.

That's your opinion and that's cool. KOFXIII is 2nd best this gen, for me.

Plays like an old school fighter and like most old school fighters, the balance disparities are very noticeable in comparison to SFIV. You may hear me preach about old school fighters a lot, but they are far from perfect. They have serious problems that the new school fighters don't have. For what it makes up for by not having comeback mechanics, it loses in strategy. It's a rushdown game while in SFIV, there were rushdowns, keep aways, emphasis on zoning, footsies, etc.....SFIV focused a lot more on the basics and had a satisfying balance between them, like SFII. KOFXIII reversal windows were TOO short, allowing you to spam and get away with really scrubby tactics at point blank range, which your not supposed to be able to do. Reversals make people think twice about making stupid decisions. Scrubs complain about SFIV's reversal windows because they like to do ultras and DPs on wake up and not get punished, big time, for it. That coupled with the overall rushdown-centric gameplay takes away from the thought and meta games that SFIV posses, unfortunately, by a WIDE margin over KOFXIII. More people play SFIV so there's better competition. KOFXIII has too many infinities, every character has, at least, one. Some infinities, far more practical than others, lending more issues to the overall balance problems. There is no auto blocking in SFIV, don't know where you got that from. Neither are there gems or X-Factor, both of which a FAR worse than Ultras. And so you know, SFIV plays more like an old school SF game than KOF XIII plays like and old school KOF game. Best KOF is still 02 UM, hands down. Now 02 UM IS better than SFIV.

Both are great games, it's just about your preference. SFIV has perfect balance between casuals and hardcore and KOFXIII is all hardcore......and while KOFXIII is almost totally different form any other KOF, it still manages to keep many of the unfortunate aspects in from the older KOF games. SFIV is SF and thus, the thinking man's fighting game, while KOFXIII is far more offensive and execution heavy.

I'd say that KOF is the best this gen for the reasons you mentioned. Execution heavy, fast paced, and not mashing. You just had to be quicker to react. The reversal windows are an issue simply because it rewards scrubby gameplay from people who mash too much. And it *is* easy to mash.

I guess the balance is more your opinion but if it is there it's because Street Fighter has had numerous updates and patches, while KOF has had none.

Just because a game rewards silly turtling with long autoguards and whatnot doesn't make it more strategic. The thing is, some games are just faster paced than others. I like being able to choose. Capcom vs SNK2 for instance rewards more patience because of the defensive tech, it got the game right, because it still had execution with no comeback crap. KOF is more fast paced and quick. Alpha 3 was fast paced itself too. Some games are offensive heavy, and some defensive.

People who are dumb enough to do ultras on wakeup constantly get punished in the old games too. Nobody relied on constant wakeup moves at high level play, they'd be destroyed. SFIV is a fun game, and a good one, but it has too much crap in it.

The ultras aren't as bad as gems and X-Factor, but they are an obvious comeback mechanic that rewards losing. With a move that often does 50-60% damage. Nothing strategic about it. SFIV doesn't play old school to me. It plays new school, just like Marvel vs Capcom 3 and Tekken vs SF (though not as bad). It's inconsistent with 1 frame links there just to be there, and long reversal windows.

It rewards stupid things like vortexes and option selects. Which there is nothing wrong with knocking someone down, but watching people play and seeing it just become a game of "Who can knock the other guy down first and jump all over him." Just feels a bit silly. Option selects wouldn't need to be spammed as much if they just gave more options in the first place.

The game also feels very, very slow. Speaking of footsies, some characters like Seth, Viper, El Fuerte, and others don't even have to play them. They just do what they want when they want. They move all over the place and just rely on knockdowns over and over, which feels silly.


Either way opinions aside, I think SF4 is a fun game, I bought it for PS3 and PC, that's another complaint i have, the stupid frames are different on each version which messes up combos. I just don't think it compares to the old stuff and I don't think it is as good as KOF.

Take away the characters and pretend they aren't in the game and look at the mechanics and I just can't see SFIV being better, sorry.

Then you have the ridiculous input leniency and shortcuts too? Man... this game is way more scrub friendly than KOF.

[Frisky The Wolf Lord]

Apr 10, 2012 19:19:03 GMT -5 The Big Daddy C-Master said:

I'd say that KOF is the best this gen for the reasons you mentioned. Execution heavy, fast paced, and not mashing. You just had to be quicker to react. The reversal windows are an issue simply because it rewards scrubby gameplay from people who mash too much. And it *is* easy to mash.

I guess the balance is more your opinion but if it is there it's because Street Fighter has had numerous updates and patches, while KOF has had none.

Just because a game rewards silly turtling with long autoguards and whatnot doesn't make it more strategic. The thing is, some games are just faster paced than others. I like being able to choose. Capcom vs SNK2 for instance rewards more patience because of the defensive tech, it got the game right, because it still had execution with no comeback crap. KOF is more fast paced and quick. Alpha 3 was fast paced itself too. Some games are offensive heavy, and some defensive.

People who are dumb enough to do ultras on wakeup constantly get punished in the old games too. Nobody relied on constant wakeup moves at high level play, they'd be destroyed. SFIV is a fun game, and a good one, but it has too much crap in it.

The ultras aren't as bad as gems and X-Factor, but they are an obvious comeback mechanic that rewards losing. With a move that often does 50-60% damage. Nothing strategic about it. SFIV doesn't play old school to me. It plays new school, just like Marvel vs Capcom 3 and Tekken vs SF (though not as bad). It's inconsistent with 1 frame links there just to be there, and long reversal windows.

It rewards stupid things like vortexes and option selects. Which there is nothing wrong with knocking someone down, but watching people play and seeing it just become a game of "Who can knock the other guy down first and jump all over him." Just feels a bit silly. Option selects wouldn't need to be spammed as much if they just gave more options in the first place.

The game also feels very, very slow. Speaking of footsies, some characters like Seth, Viper, El Fuerte, and others don't even have to play them. They just do what they want when they want. They move all over the place and just rely on knockdowns over and over, which feels silly.


Then you have the ridiculous input leniency and shortcuts too? Man... this game is way more scrub friendly than KOF.

Yeah, KOF is great, but for some one like me, I need a little more than fast paced action and heavy execution. And when CTA and I were talking about how insane Vampire Savior's execution was, we weren't praising it. Unnecessarily high execution with mediocre/standard rewards isn't a good thing. And you can mash in KOF just like SFIV, in fact it's done on a regular since you can mash weak normals into specials and so on. Their is mashing in KOFXIII. And making stupid decisions to put yourself in a position to be punished by mashers is much worse than simply mashing a DP in a reversal window. Dumb decisions are the first and foremost "no no" for any fighter. SFIV make you pay HARD for it.

It's not an opinion, there are no 8-2 match ups in SFIV, there are a few in KOFXIII. Super came out of the package as the most balanced fighter this gen, the patches and updates actually ruined it. That's what people were mad about. Just look at any old SRK thread, or heck, go to KMC's old SFIV thread, the proof is there. And FYI, KOFXIII has received MAJOR updates. The console version of KOFXIII is a beastly overhaul of the same game that had Raiden well beyond S tier and a slew of characters well below Dan tier. In SFIV, even Dan tier is an "okay" tier.

LOL "Turtling" is a necessary part of ANY COMPLETE fighter, and SSFIV doesn't always reward turtling, it's a style of play that only certain characters can do. I'm really worried about you now since I haven't heard anyone complain about SFIV's "turtling" since 2008. Everyone knows the game has shifted heavily into a more offensive direction with Super and even further with AE. Which was a version people hated. Yun, Yang, and Makoto were the 3 strongest characters in the game at one point and they were all rushdowns. Are you sure you were playing SFIV? The top tiers of the current version of SFIV consists of Seth, C. Viper, Cammy, Akuma and F. Long. None of these characters excel in "turtling". And what the hell is this "auto guard" nonsense? Are you talking about "auto correction"? If that's what you're talking about, that doesn't even become nuisance unless you actually VERY good and that has nothing to do with noobing or scrubbing stuff up, that's just a decision on Capcom's part. And Alpha 3 is more of a turtle fest than SFIV. People HATE Alpha 3, it was much worse than Alpha 2.

There were no ultras in older SF games. And yes, people did mash on wake up DPs and mashing DPs in older SF games, too. Heck, you even mashed out DPs in Vampire Savior if your getting beasted on too hard and have to try something in order not to get decimated. That's the whole point of having invincible frames on start up.

There is no strategy in ultras?! Yeah, after this post, I'm done talking about this. The very existence of an ultra creates strategies and tactics. I don't like ultras either and even I can admit that it adds an extra layer of strategy. LOL once the meter is filled, a completely new meta game takes place.

What?! Vortexes and option selects are stupid? You bash SFIV for being scrubby but then bash option selects and Vortexes. I am not going to address this. Especially since what you described IS NOT an option select OR vortex. Those 2 things add multitudes of depth to SFIV. Do you mean something else?

SFIV can be very slow, depending on who you use, it's not the same for everyone. And again, please tell me you are talking about something else because Seth, Viper, and El Fuerte health are too low to play footsies and are all about incredible offense, mixups, and mind raping. It would be boring if every character had good footsies, not that Viper and Seth don't have them, they do. Everyone plays differently and relies on various styles FROM ALL types of fighting games, which is what I like about SFIV over KOFXIII.

Those are bad aspects, but the sheer strategy and pleasure that far exceed the new KOF makes up for it. The jab spams and universal rush down system in the game gets stale after a while. I don't like old school fighters just for the sake of them playing like old school fighters and being hard to grasp. I like my fighters for much deeper reasons.

[The Big Daddy C-Master]

Man it's ok if you disagree with me but I'm not sure if you're an apologist or if it's because you're a mega SF fan (I like the Street Fighter series the most overall) or do you just like the casual friendly stuff. Why the hell is having long reversal windows good for skilled play? It just rewards stupid mashing.

Apr 10, 2012 22:50:03 GMT -5 Frisky The Wolf Lord said:

Apr 10, 2012 19:19:03 GMT -5 The Big Daddy C-Master said:

Yeah, KOF is great, but for some one like me, I need a little more than fast paced action and heavy execution. And when CTA and I were talking about how insane Vampire Savior's execution was, we weren't praising it. Unnecessarily high execution with mediocre/standard rewards isn't a good thing. And you can mash in KOF just like SFIV, in fact it's done on a regular since you can mash weak normals into specials and so on. Their is mashing in KOFXIII. And making stupid decisions to put yourself in a position to be punished by mashers is much worse than simply mashing a DP in a reversal window. Dumb decisions are the first and foremost "no no" for any fighter. SFIV make you pay HARD for it.

Yes you can mash, but the reward isn't as high as it is for SF, where the stupid long reversal windows. You're complaining about unecessary execution yet you neglect to mention the numerous 1frame and 2 frame links put into the game that were never there before? And for what? An artificial "learning curve"? Please. SFIV is all over the place, and by the way I can do the 1 frame link (I play as Evil Ryu and he has tons of them). But when you play, and ESPECIALLY online, there is a chance you can drop certain parts. Even a low level scrub is able to mash their way out of that, or a 3 frame jab. It's not because of skilled timing, it's because of mashing and it's a STUPID mechanic to have in there. Even some high level players have been caught mashing because it's so effective.

I doubt there's much mashing in high level KOF play. It's nothing to do with putting yourself in a dumb position. I'm not talking about standing in front of someone on wakeup and not blocking. I'm talking about doing BNB's or using crouch tech with 3 frames only to have some scrub mash DP. It's nothing but a scrub mechanic.

Apr 10, 2012 22:50:03 GMT -5 Frisky The Wolf Lord said:

Apr 10, 2012 19:19:03 GMT -5 The Big Daddy C-Master said:

It's not an opinion, there are no 8-2 match ups in SFIV, there are a few in KOFXIII. Super came out of the package as the most balanced fighter this gen, the patches and updates actually ruined it. That's what people were mad about. Just look at any old SRK thread, or heck, go to KMC's old SFIV thread, the proof is there. And FYI, KOFXIII has received MAJOR updates. The console version of KOFXIII is a beastly overhaul of the same game that had Raiden well beyond S tier and a slew of characters well below Dan tier. In SFIV, even Dan tier is an "okay" tier.

So what? Vanilla was unbalanced, and Aracade Edition was unbalanced. It took them NUMEROUS patches to get it right.

Street Fighter 3 wasn't balanced well at all and had better mechanics. Marvel vs Capcom 2 wasn't (although it plays differently), Capcom vs SNK 2 wasn't perfectly balanced either (solid balance but not perfect) and so on.

I like balance myself very much but saying that Street Fighter 4 was never unbalanced is just nonsense considering the producer said he LIKED unbalanced characters because it was more "fun", I think games should be as balanced as possible but that's just me.

Apr 10, 2012 22:50:03 GMT -5 Frisky The Wolf Lord said:

Apr 10, 2012 19:19:03 GMT -5 The Big Daddy C-Master said:

LOL "Turtling" is a necessary part of ANY COMPLETE fighter, and SSFIV doesn't always reward turtling, it's a style of play that only certain characters can do. I'm really worried about you now since I haven't heard anyone complain about SFIV's "turtling" since 2008. Everyone knows the game has shifted heavily into a more offensive direction with Super and even further with AE. Which was a version people hated. Yun, Yang, and Makoto were the 3 strongest characters in the game at one point and they were all rushdowns. Are you sure you were playing SFIV? The top tiers of the current version of SFIV consists of Seth, C. Viper, Cammy, Akuma and F. Long. None of these characters excel in "turtling". And what the hell is this "auto guard" nonsense? Are you talking about "auto correction"? If that's what you're talking about, that doesn't even become nuisance unless you actually VERY good and that has nothing to do with noobing or scrubbing stuff up, that's just a decision on Capcom's part. And Alpha 3 is more of a turtle fest than SFIV. People HATE Alpha 3, it was much worse than Alpha 2.

No, every fighting game does NOT have to revolve around turtling. If you want it in there you play a game with turtling. That be said I don't necessarily mind turtling. I just don't think it has to be in every game to be a "legit" fighting game. That's just nonsense. Many fighting games out there don't have a turtling aspect.

There's a difference between smart defense and dumb defense, and dumb defense can get you far against most players because this game rewards defense so much. You have invincible backdashes, long as reversal windows, silly ultra mechanics, you have easy grabs and lots of spam, plus the game moves slow, which is a turtlers paradise. It isn't fast thinking turtling, it's easy "hold your hand turtling".

The top tier characters are only top tier because they have so many options to get around turtling, vortexes safe moves and punishes. And Makoto wasn't top tier, Fei Long was. the reason that Seth is top tier is because he has so many ways to get around any type of defense the player wants to do. Characters like Evil Ryu don't have those tools and therefore have to work harder. It doesn't hurt my point. And top tiers come apparent at higher level play where people can read you more.

My favorite fighter Capcom vs SNK 2 had plenty of turtling so I'm not saying it's bad, just that it isn't necessary in ALL fighters. Alpha 3 was not majorly considered worse than 2, it was about a 50/50 split in bases between that.

Alpha 3 wasn't a turtle fest, people just complained about V-ISM, which DEFINITELY did not encourage turtling. You had guard crushes in that game for crying out loud and V-ISM went RIGHT through it.

Apr 10, 2012 22:50:03 GMT -5 Frisky The Wolf Lord said:

Apr 10, 2012 19:19:03 GMT -5 The Big Daddy C-Master said:

There were no ultras in older SF games. And yes, people did mash on wake up DPs and mashing DPs in older SF games, too. Heck, you even mashed out DPs in Vampire Savior if your getting beasted on too hard and have to try something in order not to get decimated. That's the whole point of having invincible frames on start up.

I know there were no ultras in older SF games. The point wasn't that you couldn't mash. You could, it just had a tighter window and would get punished. No serious player would ever mash away in older games, that's nonsense.
I can't believe you actually think mashing is a good thing. You should have to time your shit properly. I'm not talking about wake up dp's. A person who is stupid about that can be baited and punished like always, very easily.

Apr 10, 2012 22:50:03 GMT -5 Frisky The Wolf Lord said:

Apr 10, 2012 19:19:03 GMT -5 The Big Daddy C-Master said:

There is no strategy in ultras?! Yeah, after this post, I'm done talking about this. The very existence of an ultra creates strategies and tactics. I don't like ultras either and even I can admit that it adds an extra layer of strategy. LOL once the meter is filled, a completely new meta game takes place.

Yes because it's a stupid free meter that is given to someone who loses and it's available EVERY ROUND. It requires little management, it doesn't run out until you use it, and it does massive damage. It's nothing but a scrub comeback mechanic. It's stupid and they could have just had multiple supers like before. The presence of THOSE create strategies without rewarding someone for losing, which is my damned point. Ultras are stupid and just there for people who made mistakes all round and want free damage. "The very existence" doesn't mean anything. The existence of anything is considered in a meta game anyways. Instant homing weapons in Twisted Metal are stupid, but they are part of the meta game because you have to avoid the stupid things to survive.

Apr 10, 2012 22:50:03 GMT -5 Frisky The Wolf Lord said:

Apr 10, 2012 19:19:03 GMT -5 The Big Daddy C-Master said:

What?! Vortexes and option selects are stupid? You bash SFIV for being scrubby but then bash option selects and Vortexes. I am not going to address this. Especially since what you described IS NOT an option select OR vortex. Those 2 things add multitudes of depth to SFIV. Do you mean something else?

Vortexes in theory aren't the problem, it's the stupid idea of the whole game being relied upon knockdowns and stupid 50/50 guessing games. Where is the high level skill in that. Certain characters like El Fuerte, C. Viper, and sometimes Seth turn the game into a guessing game. People jumping all over a grounded person is more like a noob version of vortex, but most players do it just because it's effective and it looks silly. The whole gameplay revolves around this.

Option selects themselves aren't the problem, it's spamming them because you have a lack of tools to begin with in the game to deal with certain strategies LIKE the vortex.

Apr 10, 2012 22:50:03 GMT -5 Frisky The Wolf Lord said:

Apr 10, 2012 19:19:03 GMT -5 The Big Daddy C-Master said:

SFIV can be very slow, depending on who you use, it's not the same for everyone. And again, please tell me you are talking about something else because Seth, Viper, and El Fuerte health are too low to play footsies and are all about incredible offense, mixups, and mind raping. It would be boring if every character had good footsies, not that Viper and Seth don't have them, they do. Everyone plays differently and relies on various styles FROM ALL types of fighting games, which is what I like about SFIV over KOFXIII.

The game plays slower than other SF titles and most fighting games. Slow floaty jumps, long reversal windows, etc. The game just plays slower. I meant it as clear as I said it.

Please, low health doesn't mean squat. Evil Ryu has low health and has to play, Cammy has to play too. My point is one second you go on and on about how footsies and turtling are so important, then you mention that every character shouldn't have to play them or it gets boring? WTF? By your definition (and many others) they aren't SF characters. Viper has feints and Seth has pretty much every thing. Don't get me wrong I think in some ways they are cool. But don't tell me that TURTLING is the way to play a REAL fighters and that footsies should be there, and then say that these characters are fine because they play different. It's a contradiction.

Apr 10, 2012 22:50:03 GMT -5 Frisky The Wolf Lord said:

Apr 10, 2012 19:19:03 GMT -5 The Big Daddy C-Master said:

Those are bad aspects, but the sheer strategy and pleasure that far exceed the new KOF makes up for it. The jab spams and universal rush down system in the game gets stale after a while. I don't like old school fighters just for the sake of them playing like old school fighters and being hard to grasp. I like my fighters for much deeper reasons.

Many people would say the slow paced defensive play of SFIV gets stale. They just prefer a different game. Take away the characters you love so much and look at the mechanics and look at what SF rewards (silly comebacks, retarded mashing, characters who do what they want) compared to KOF XIII which requires some execution (and the execution isn't that hard, people are just too lazy to practice) and I'd say that KOF is the better game.

I'm not saying old school is better "CUZ it's old school." I'm saying it's better because old school fighters were about more strategy and execution and didn't have the hand holding bullshit of modern games, including fighters. Marvel vs Capcom 3, TekkenXStreet Fighter, and Street Fighter 4 are all guilty of this. You can't tell me the game isn't more watered down and casual friendly than previous SF games and Capcom fighters. It is.

King of Fighters XIII isn't. They actually didn't sell out and kept their game true to their roots. And it does have flaws, but it did so many things right, which is why I think it's the best fighter this gen.

[Frisky The Wolf Lord]

Yeah I just read over what you posted and decided, I'm going to drop this argument here. You should read over these websites,

forums.eventhubs.com/index.php

shoryuken.com/forum/index.php

iplaywinner.com/guides/

to better get whatever point you're trying to get across a little more clearer.

A lot of the stuff you're describing is incorrect, HARDLY present in SFIV, not actually a bad thing, or is ALSO present in KOFXIII.

[The Big Daddy C-Master]

Apr 11, 2012 14:29:13 GMT -5 Frisky The Wolf Lord said:

Yeah I just read over what you posted and decided, I'm going to drop this argument here. You should read over these websites,

forums.eventhubs.com/index.php

shoryuken.com/forum/index.php

iplaywinner.com/guides/

to better get whatever point you're trying to get across a little more clearer.

A lot of the stuff you're describing is incorrect, HARDLY present in SFIV, not actually a bad thing, or is ALSO present in KOFXIII.

I don't need a strategy guide or a forum link. People on Shoryuken.com were just talking about the same problems as well as on other forums.

My problems are this:

Long reversals.
Comeback mechanics.
Out of place artificial "skill" 1frame links.
Silly 50/50 guessing games.

Some other things like characters who feel out of place, but that's the Gist of it.

[Frisky The Wolf Lord]

Apr 11, 2012 14:40:45 GMT -5 The Big Daddy C-Master said:

Apr 11, 2012 14:29:13 GMT -5 Frisky The Wolf Lord said:

Yeah I just read over what you posted and decided, I'm going to drop this argument here. You should read over these websites,

forums.eventhubs.com/index.php

shoryuken.com/forum/index.php

iplaywinner.com/guides/

to better get whatever point you're trying to get across a little more clearer.

A lot of the stuff you're describing is incorrect, HARDLY present in SFIV, not actually a bad thing, or is ALSO present in KOFXIII.

I don't need a strategy guide or a forum link. People on Shoryuken.com were just talking about the same problems as well as on other forums.

My problems are this:

Long reversals.
Comeback mechanics.
Out of place artificial "skill" 1frame links.
Silly 50/50 guessing games.

Some other things like characters who feel out of place, but that's the Gist of it.

And a lot of those people still play SFIV more than they do KOFXIII. Just because they whine about those things doesn't stop it from being their favorite game.

I gave you those links because those sites had threads that basically served as dictionaries for fighting game terms, you would then read them and understand why I am so confused about what you're talking about because the "reversal windows" in SSFIV is only 2 (sometimes 1) frame longer than KOF XIII's. And you only get a reversal by PUNISHING a bad decision. And the "50/50 guessing games" are only constantly present with 5 of the 38 characters in SFIV. The guessing games being part of their actual play style. Not to mention that you only get put in these situations by, again, making bad decisions. I'm further bewildered at the fact that you would make the claim since these "guessing games" are EQUALLY present in KOFXIII at the basic/noob level. You also go on to say KOFXIII demands better execution, which it does, but then say it has more "strategy" which is FACTUALLY incorrect. It becomes even more bewildering when you bash the things that are part of SFIV's metagames. So I'm left thinking you don't like to plan or think very carefully when play fighters.

Most of the other bits you posted left me VERY confused, as well. I was often left asking, does he know how this stuff works, does he know when it occurs, does he know when to use it? You pretty much took the cake when you ignored my reasoning and just left it up to me being a "mega SF fan", even though I had previously stated that KOF 02 UM (despite being titled as 2002, came out in 2009) as BETTER than SFIV.

[Coolest thing Alive]

Well, like I said on SRK, niggaz might as well put on the hatah faces cuz SUPER is my favorite fighter in the past 10 years. No exceptions!

Haven't played a fighter that was more enjoyable, rewarding, and entertaining since 3S. I actually made friends playing SFIV and got friends into fighting thru SFIV.

I have my reasons for not touching it in almost a year, but that's more of Capcom's fault than anything else. Kofxiii is cool, tho. I praised it many times on here before, i just enjoy slower paced, more strategic games. I may talk a buncha good shit about Darkstalkers but you better know sf is and always will be my shit for the reasons I just stated.

[The Big Daddy C-Master]

Apr 11, 2012 14:58:48 GMT -5 Frisky The Wolf Lord said:

Apr 11, 2012 14:40:45 GMT -5 The Big Daddy C-Master said:

I don't need a strategy guide or a forum link. People on Shoryuken.com were just talking about the same problems as well as on other forums.

My problems are this:

Long reversals.
Comeback mechanics.
Out of place artificial "skill" 1frame links.
Silly 50/50 guessing games.

Some other things like characters who feel out of place, but that's the Gist of it.

And a lot of those people still play SFIV more than they do KOFXIII. Just because they whine about those things doesn't stop it from being their favorite game.

I gave you those links because those sites had threads that basically served as dictionaries for fighting game terms, you would then read them and understand why I am so confused about what you're talking about because the "reversal windows" in SSFIV is only 2 (sometimes 1) frame longer than KOF XIII's. And you only get a reversal by PUNISHING a bad decision. And the "50/50 guessing games" are only constantly present with 5 of the 38 characters in SFIV. The guessing games being part of their actual play style. Not to mention that you only get put in these situations by, again, making bad decisions. I'm further bewildered at the fact that you would make the claim since these "guessing games" are EQUALLY present in KOFXIII at the basic/noob level. You also go on to say KOFXIII demands better execution, which it does, but then say it has more "strategy" which is FACTUALLY incorrect. It becomes even more bewildering when you bash the things that are part of SFIV's metagames. So I'm left thinking you don't like to plan or think very carefully when play fighters.

Most of the other bits you posted left me VERY confused, as well. I was often left asking, does he know how this stuff works, does he know when it occurs, does he know when to use it? You pretty much took the cake when you ignored my reasoning and just left it up to me being a "mega SF fan", even though I had previously stated that KOF 02 UM (despite being titled as 2002, came out in 2009) as BETTER than SFIV.

Of course, SFIV sells higher, that's no surprise. Nobody said SF4 was a bad game, bringing up that more people play it is no surprise, especially considering KOF's online.

The reversal frames in SF4 are longer than it's own previous games, you were not able to simply mash out of combos or blockstrings. In the older games to get out of a blockstring you had to be very accurate and time it well. In this game you can simply mash it out. And yes that's a reversal. You get those by attacking a person on wakeup or blocking. It hurts the offensive momentum of the game by rewarding easy defense that takes less skill. That along with the invincible backdashes.

Doesn't matter. The point is that it is in the game and it's silly for being in there. It will always be a problem in higher level play. The whole game revolves around untechable knockdowns, and in lower and mid level play it's untechable knockdowns and jumping. It's a guessing game and it's silly as there shouldn't be a large random element in a game by simply making someone guess block. Stop apologizing for every mechanic, lol. You know it's true.

And please don't give me that "You lack skill" argument. I've been playing fighters for a long, long time. It's the same thing with Twisted Metal. "Why don't you just not get hit by undodgeable weapons." You point out the stuff in the game can't be dodged (Twisted Metal) and this is the answer you get. Whether I'm excellent at the game or terrible (which I'm not) doesn't change the fact that what I said was right.


You don't have to make dumb decisions when certain members of the cast don't have to play footsies. They can feint, hop, jump, and command grab their way through your defense easily, which is why these characters are top tier.

The guessing games you're talking about are more mixup games in KOF, they have mixup in older Street Fighter, but it never got to the point of (well I'm going to make you block in the wrong direction, herp derp I win).

I'm not talking about the noob level of KOF. I'm talking competent level and up. It's just not there as much when people understand the mechanics because it gets punished hard.


I'm simply pointing out certain flaws and criticizing them. KOF does NOT play like SF, it simply doesn't. SF rewards different things than SF. You already said the execution/reversal barrier was too short, and now you're saying they're almost the same? C'mon.

I've seen you post for a while and I know you're a fan of SF. It just seems to me you're apologizing for everything in the game. Everything I pointed out was a legitimate flaw, and these flaws were pointed out by numerous people on other forums LIKE Shoryuken.com. I know what I'm talking about. I like the game and I bought 2 copies of it. But is it a watered down version of past games? Yes it is, for the reasons I mentioned. It doesn't mean I hate the game any whatsoever.

I never ignored your reasoning, you ignored mine. I even pointed out other games that were Capcom and didn't play like this. You just seemed to apologize for it.

I of course like you and respect your opinion and all of that, you're welcome to think that SF4 is better than KOF if you want.

I just don't see why you're disagreeing with me that this game is watered down compared to the other SF's to cater to a newer audience.


Slow speed.
Longer reversal frames which encourage mashing over timing
silly guessing games and game being overly reliant on untechable knockdown due to fewer options on wakeup
Silly characters that can do whatever they want (they're cool, just different from the games mechanics, hence they are top tier).
And on and on.

That's all I'm saying bro.

[The Big Daddy C-Master]

Apr 11, 2012 15:40:02 GMT -5 Coolest thing Alive said:

Well, like I said on SRK, niggaz might as well put on the hatah faces cuz SUPER is my favorite fighter in the past 10 years. No exceptions!

Haven't played a fighter that was more enjoyable, rewarding, and entertaining since 3S. I actually made friends playing SFIV and got friends into fighting thru SFIV.

I have my reasons for not touching it in almost a year, but that's more of Capcom's fault than anything else. Kofxiii is cool, tho. I praised it many times on here before, i just enjoy slower paced, more strategic games. I may talk a buncha good shit about Darkstalkers but you better know sf is and always will be my shit for the reasons I just stated.

They're all fun good games. But if they had Capcom vs SNK 2 online with good connections. I'd be playing that for sure lol.

Alpha 3 too for that matter.

[Frisky The Wolf Lord]

Apr 11, 2012 15:46:24 GMT -5 The Big Daddy C-Master said:

Apr 11, 2012 14:58:48 GMT -5 Frisky The Wolf Lord said:

And a lot of those people still play SFIV more than they do KOFXIII. Just because they whine about those things doesn't stop it from being their favorite game.

I gave you those links because those sites had threads that basically served as dictionaries for fighting game terms, you would then read them and understand why I am so confused about what you're talking about because the "reversal windows" in SSFIV is only 2 (sometimes 1) frame longer than KOF XIII's. And you only get a reversal by PUNISHING a bad decision. And the "50/50 guessing games" are only constantly present with 5 of the 38 characters in SFIV. The guessing games being part of their actual play style. Not to mention that you only get put in these situations by, again, making bad decisions. I'm further bewildered at the fact that you would make the claim since these "guessing games" are EQUALLY present in KOFXIII at the basic/noob level. You also go on to say KOFXIII demands better execution, which it does, but then say it has more "strategy" which is FACTUALLY incorrect. It becomes even more bewildering when you bash the things that are part of SFIV's metagames. So I'm left thinking you don't like to plan or think very carefully when play fighters.

Most of the other bits you posted left me VERY confused, as well. I was often left asking, does he know how this stuff works, does he know when it occurs, does he know when to use it? You pretty much took the cake when you ignored my reasoning and just left it up to me being a "mega SF fan", even though I had previously stated that KOF 02 UM (despite being titled as 2002, came out in 2009) as BETTER than SFIV.

Of course, SFIV sells higher, that's no surprise. Nobody said SF4 was a bad game, bringing up that more people play it is no surprise, especially considering KOF's online.

The reversal frames in SF4 are longer than it's own previous games, you were not able to simply mash out of combos or blockstrings. In the older games to get out of a blockstring you had to be very accurate and time it well. In this game you can simply mash it out. And yes that's a reversal. You get those by attacking a person on wakeup or blocking. It hurts the offensive momentum of the game by rewarding easy defense that takes less skill. That along with the invincible backdashes.

Doesn't matter. The point is that it is in the game and it's silly for being in there. It will always be a problem in higher level play. The whole game revolves around untechable knockdowns, and in lower and mid level play it's untechable knockdowns and jumping. It's a guessing game and it's silly as there shouldn't be a large random element in a game by simply making someone guess block. Stop apologizing for every mechanic.

And please don't give me that. I've been playing fighters for a long, long time. It's the same thing with Twisted Metal. "Why don't you just not get hit by undodgeable weapons." You point out the stuff in the game can't be dodged and this is the answer you get. Whether I'm excellent at the game or terrible (which I'm not) doesn't change the fact that what I said was right.


You don't have to make dumb decisions when certain members of the cast don't have to play footsies. They can feint, hop, jump, and command grab their way through your defense easily, which is why these characters are top tier.

The guessing games you're talking about are more mixup games in KOF, they have mixup in older Street Fighter, but it never got to the point of (well I'm going to make you block in the wrong direction, herp derp I win).

I'm not talking about the noob level of KOF. I'm talking competent level and up. It's just not there as much when people understand the mechanics because it gets punished hard.


I'm simply pointing out certain flaws and criticizing them. KOF does NOT play like SF, it simply doesn't. SF rewards different things than SF. You already said the execution/reversal barrier was too short, and now you're saying they're almost the same? C'mon.

I've seen you post for a while and I know you're a fan of SF. It just seems to me you're apologizing for everything in the game. Everything I pointed out was a legitimate flaw, and these flaws were pointed out by numerous people on other forums LIKE Shoryuken.com. I know what I'm talking about. I like the game and I bought 2 copies of it. But is it a watered down version of past games? Yes it is, for the reasons I mentioned. It doesn't mean I hate the game any whatsoever.

I never ignored your reasoning, you ignored mine. I even pointed out other games that were Capcom and didn't play like this. You just seemed to apologize for it.

I of course like you and respect your opinion and all of that, you're welcome to think that SF4 is better than KOF if you want.

I just don't see why you're disagreeing with me that this game is watered down compared to the other SF's to cater to a newer audience.


Slow speed.
Longer reversal frames which encourage mashing over timing
silly guessing games and game being overly reliant on untechable knockdown due to fewer options on wakeup
Silly characters that can do whatever they want (they're cool, just different from the games mechanics, hence they are top tier).
And on and on.

That's all I'm saying bro.

This is what I mean, what your saying is NOT true or HEAVILY exaggerated.

[Coolest thing Alive]

lol @ a Capcom fighting game were you couldn't mash out a DP to get outta suffocatin offense.

TIGER UPPERCUT!!!

[The Big Daddy C-Master]

Let's start over.

What do you feel isn't true or exaggerated, and we'll go one by one.

[The Big Daddy C-Master]

Apr 11, 2012 15:56:28 GMT -5 Coolest thing Alive said:

lol @ a Capcom fighting game were you couldn't mash out a DP to get outta suffocatin offense.

TIGER UPPERCUT!!!

It wasn't that easy...

Not through a 3 frame jab anyways... or 1 frame link.

[Frisky The Wolf Lord]

Apr 11, 2012 15:56:28 GMT -5 Coolest thing Alive said:

lol @ a Capcom fighting game were you couldn't mash out a DP to get outta suffocatin offense.

TIGER UPPERCUT!!!

This is exactly what I mean. ALL of his complaints are in ALL the old SF games. The older SF games even had 1frame links (not as prevalent), made easier today by plinking.

[The Big Daddy C-Master]

Apr 11, 2012 16:01:05 GMT -5 Frisky The Wolf Lord said:

Apr 11, 2012 15:56:28 GMT -5 Coolest thing Alive said:

lol @ a Capcom fighting game were you couldn't mash out a DP to get outta suffocatin offense.

TIGER UPPERCUT!!!

This is exactly what I mean. ALL of his complaints are in ALL the old SF games. The older SF games even had 1frame links (not as prevalent), made easier today by plinking.

They were not in the older SF games to this extent. The new game just took the flaws and made them worse.

Sure you could mash Dp out of block, but how easy was that against intelligent offense? Not as easy as it is to do now, which is my point.

1 frame links aren't the issue (those were for rarer things, and certain infinites, almost never practical) it's them being put in there arbitrarily.

You said you hated silly execution and liked loose stuff, which is odd that you didn't point that out.

[Frisky The Wolf Lord]

Apr 11, 2012 16:04:14 GMT -5 The Big Daddy C-Master said:

Apr 11, 2012 16:01:05 GMT -5 Frisky The Wolf Lord said:

They were not in the older SF games to this extent. The new game just took the flaws and made them worse.

Sure you could mash Dp out of block, but how easy was that against intelligent offense? Not as easy as it is to do now, which is my point.

1 frame links aren't the issue (those were for rarer things, and certain infinites, almost never practical) it's them being put in there arbitrarily.

You said you hated silly execution and liked loose stuff, which is odd that you didn't point that out.

IT'S LITERALLY THE SAME! 3S being the exception because you could parry it, about all you could do to avoid it.

SRKs/DPs are INVINCIBLE, they can be done at the slightest opening, unless of course, the guy was doing a ONE FRAME link, then of course, you'd REALLY have to mash that bad boy out. Too bad there weren't that many 1frame links back then. Even in Darkstalkers, a game 10X more demanding than ANY SF, you could mash out DPs if the person was just blindly raging on you, just like SFIV.

This stuff has always been here, people are just complaining now, because it's popular and we have the internet to do it on.

What?! I never said I liked "loose stuff". I said I didn't like unnecessarily hard execution. It kills the community. I didn't mention 1frame links because it WAS ONLY ONE HIGH EXECUTION FLAW in a series of none. AND plinking makes it easier. SFIV's REAL problem are the ridiculous shortcuts, even KOFXIII has shortcuts, they just aren't as stupid. KOFXIII's execution surpasses that of C.Viper's 60% of the time. It's unnecessary.

[The Big Daddy C-Master]

Apr 11, 2012 16:12:39 GMT -5 Frisky The Wolf Lord said:

Apr 11, 2012 16:04:14 GMT -5 The Big Daddy C-Master said:

Apr 11, 2012 16:01:05 GMT -5 Frisky The Wolf Lord said:

They were not in the older SF games to this extent. The new game just took the flaws and made them worse.

Sure you could mash Dp out of block, but how easy was that against intelligent offense? Not as easy as it is to do now, which is my point.

1 frame links aren't the issue (those were for rarer things, and certain infinites, almost never practical) it's them being put in there arbitrarily.

You said you hated silly execution and liked loose stuff, which is odd that you didn't point that out.

IT'S LITERALLY THE SAME! 3S being the exception because you could parry it, about all you could do to avoid it.

SRKs/DPs are INVINCIBLE, they can be done at the slightest opening, unless of course, the guy was doing a ONE FRAME link, then of course, you'd REALLY have to mash that bad boy out. Too bad there weren't that many 1frame links back then. Even in Darkstalkers, a game 10X more demanding than ANY SF, you could mash out DPs if the person was just blindly raging on you, just like SFIV.

This stuff has always been here, people are just complaining now, because it's popular and we have the internet to do it on.

I didn't mention 1frame links because it WAS ONLY ONE HIGH EXECUTION FLAW in a series of none. AND plinking makes it easier. SFIV's REAL problem are pesky short cuts. KOFXIII's execution surpasses that of C.Viper's 60% of the time. It's unnecessary.

They are NOT the same. And keep in mind that every frame counts. The less skilled players (which is whom I'm talking about) won't be able to mash out on reaction in older games and you know this. Even if you mashed them out, they would likely be too late or whiff.

Darkstalkers being 10x more demanding than SF? Your opinion, although I like Capcom vs SNK2 the most.

Do you understand my point? You have stupid execution shortcuts and retarded input leniency, then you put in 1 frame links to add an artificial barrier, it feels arbitrary is all I'm saying man. Don't yell at me anymore lol.

This stuff was here, but it WASN'T here to the degree now. I mean that's just bs. Slower game, lenient execution, comeback mechanics, lenient reversals. The game was obviously catered to newer audiences. You'd have to be blind not to see it. I'm not saying the game is bad, but really, plays almost the same?

Shortcuts are A problem, but not the only one, not by a longshot. It's clear you disagree though.

[Frisky The Wolf Lord]

You know what C, I'm done. Hate it for whatever reasons you want.

[The Big Daddy C-Master]

Apr 11, 2012 16:25:35 GMT -5 Frisky The Wolf Lord said:

You know what C, I'm done. Hate it for whatever reasons you want.

*Sigh*

Again. I don't hate the game, not by a longshot. If I did I wouldn't have bought 2 versions of it. The PC version, and the PS3 version I just bought Monday. I wouldn't have bought the skin packs and got a Bluetooth adapter so I can chat while playing it.

I think SF is a GREAT game. I like it. I really do. If I were to simply take the game *itself* and look at it as an individual game, I'd give it about a 9.4.

The PC version has good graphics, sound, good gameplay, fun online, etc.

I don't dislike the GAME. The game is fun and I'm glad Capcom made something. Like I told you, they have to cater to the casuals. I understand that. I do however feel it's watered down and not on the same level as the older games, especially at higher level play. That's the difference.

It's like Twisted Metal. Me making a constructive criticism about instant homing weapons and how they hurt the metagame, it doesn't mean I hate the game. I love it. I host high level meta TOURNAMENTS for Christ's sake. I'm just calling them like I see them.


Another comparison would be Duke Nukem Forever. I liked the game, I thought people gave it a hard time, but it was an enjoyable experience. Good fun.

Now, if I compare it to the iconic Duke3d and gave a point by point comparison and pointed out the flaws (too linear, 2 weapons, lack of jetpack) some would think I hate the game. I don't. I'm only looking at it objectively.

People are welcome to disagree though, and we will just have to agree to disagree. I don't hate the game and I'm having fun with Evil Ryu. If you play on PC or PS3 maybe we could match up some time when I get through mastering him.



Stay Frisky.

[Coolest thing Alive]

Apr 11, 2012 16:00:26 GMT -5 The Big Daddy C-Master said:

Apr 11, 2012 15:56:28 GMT -5 Coolest thing Alive said:

lol @ a Capcom fighting game were you couldn't mash out a DP to get outta suffocatin offense.

TIGER UPPERCUT!!!

It wasn't that easy...

Not through a 3 frame jab anyways... or 1 frame link.

. . .It was easier dawg. People didn't complain as much cuz the internet was kinda new and fighters weren't mainstream. Now that Capcom fighters are mainstream again, yur gonna hear alotta noobs complain about stuff in SFIV, that's been in every SF.

SFIV didn't invent anything but FAs and Ultras.

Apr 11, 2012 15:49:51 GMT -5 The Big Daddy C-Master said:

They're all fun good games. But if they had Capcom vs SNK 2 online with good connections. I'd be playing that for sure lol.

Alpha 3 too for that matter.

I hated Alpha 3. Alpha 2 was much better, Imo.

Hell, they have Vampire Savior on GGPO and that's the main reason I don't even touch console fighters anymore. Just wish Capcom would put it on consoles so everyone else could play, rather than just the super hardcore. It would be cool if CVS2 was on GGPO, as well. But that's a NAOMI game and that doesn't support roll back netcode like the CPSIII does.

[The Big Daddy C-Master]

Apr 11, 2012 21:05:42 GMT -5 Coolest thing Alive said:

Apr 11, 2012 16:00:26 GMT -5 The Big Daddy C-Master said:

It wasn't that easy...

Not through a 3 frame jab anyways... or 1 frame link.

. . .It was easier dawg. People didn't complain as much cuz the internet was kinda new and fighters weren't mainstream. Now that Capcom fighters are mainstream again, yur gonna hear alotta noobs complain about stuff in SFIV, that's been in every SF.

SFIV didn't invent anything but FAs and Ultras.

Apr 11, 2012 15:49:51 GMT -5 The Big Daddy C-Master said:

They're all fun good games. But if they had Capcom vs SNK 2 online with good connections. I'd be playing that for sure lol.

Alpha 3 too for that matter.

I hated Alpha 3. Alpha 2 was much better, Imo.

Hell, they have Vampire Savior on GGPO and that's the main reason I don't even touch console fighters anymore. Just wish Capcom would put it on consoles so everyone else could play, rather than just the super hardcore. It would be cool if CVS2 was on GGPO, as well. But that's a NAOMI game and that doesn't support roll back netcode like the CPSIII does.

It was easier to mash out with a shorter window? Granted I always played on the fastest speed, but a noob gamer wasn't mashing out dp's right through jabs.

I mean the internet thing doesn't work, go to any website and look at the comments on older games, people still never say anything about mashing, slower speed, and any of the other points I made, in comparison to SF4.

That's my point. If these things were always there to the degree they are now, then there wouldn't be an issue, but this is an SF4 thing. People don't just talk about this game. There are many people who still visit the alpha, capcom vs snk2, and sf3 boards.

shoryuken.com/forum/index.php?threads/what-do-you-truly-hate-about-ssf4ae2012.157698/

Look at the complaints in the thread. Even though people still play the game the complaints are very consistent (and close to what I said) and no they don't just talk about SF3 and Alpha. The internet was out back then and the difference is that people who played FG's were almost exclusively harcore compared to now. The average gamer isn't on the internet doesn't know about frame data and they aren't on forums discussing it either.

Nobody said the things didn't exist, just not to the degree they do now.


The alpha thing was a base divider, and console games are meh at best compared to pc.

[Coolest thing Alive]

1. You're not supposed to play on the fastest speed. The game's not meant to be played competitively at faster speeds. The sprites behave faster because they tend to cut out frames, thus you are able to do things you wouldn't be able to do, normally. Prolly why you have different experiences.

2. You can mash out DPs thru jab strings in the older SF games, it all depends on how fast the character's jab is. Ryu, Ken, and a few other DPs have always had 1 frame-invincible on start ups, just like SFIV.

3. "No one" plays the older games anymore. The guys you see on those message boards are all hardcore fans of those old games. Their fighters can do no wrong. The only reason most of them are on those message boards today, is because of SFIV. Back in the days of the older SF games, SRK barely even existed, there was only about a couple hundred members. No one flocked to the internet to bitch cuz the scene was still under ground.

4. This stuff has always been there to a very similar degree, SFIII being the lone exception, due to parryin. You don't see people make the same complaints cuz they are fanbois/SFIV haters and they love their game. lol Everyone on those boards, combined wont even meet SFIV's waist lvl in traffic. Opinions on those games will vary very lil cuz of these reasons. No one on those old-decrepit boards even offer proof on how "things were different". Give me some frame data, strategy guides, opinion from pros, post some videso proving your case. Just don't make wild claims cuz U Mad. Granted, SFIV is veryscrubby compared to SFIII and II, but for much more important reasons, like shortcuts, input leniency, auto correction, ultras, and etc...Mashing is not an issue.

It's true man, any person who plays fighters beyond just what Capcom has brought to you, will tell you, "SFIV isn't that different from the last games, that's why I always play Guilty Gear, or Blazblue, or KOF, and whatever else...I never liked Capcom games, besides Darkstalkers, they are all really scrubby."

[The Big Daddy C-Master]

Apr 12, 2012 16:48:26 GMT -5 Coolest thing Alive said:

1. You're not supposed to play on the fastest speed. The game's not meant to be played competitively at faster speeds. The sprites behave faster because they tend to cut out frames, thus you are able to do things you wouldn't be able to do, normally. Prolly why you have different experiences.

2. You can mash out DPs thru jab strings in the older SF games, it all depends on how fast the character's jab is. Ryu, Ken, and a few other DPs have always had 1 frame-invincible start ups, just like SFIV.

3. "No one" plays the older games anymore. The guys you see on those message boards are all hardcore fans of those old games. Their fighters can do no wrong. The only reason most of them are on those message boards today, is because of SFIV. Back in the days of the older SF games, SRK barely even existed, there was only about a couple hundred members. No one flocked to the internet to bitch cuz the scene was still under ground.

4. This stuff has always been there to a very similar degree, SFIII being the lone exception, due to parryin. You don't see people make the same complaints cuz they are fanbois/SFIV haters and they love their game. lol Everyone on those boards, combined wont even meet SFIV's waist lvl in traffic. Opinions on those games will vary very lil cuz of these reasons. No one on those old-decrepit boards even offer proof on how "things were different". Give me some frame data, strategy guides, opinion from pros, post some videso proving your case. Just don't make wild claims cuz U Mad. Granted, SFIV is veryscrubby compared to SFIII and II, but for much more important reasons, like shortcuts, input leniency, auto correction, ultras, and etc...Mashing is not an issue.

It's true man, any person who plays fighters beyond just what Capcom has brought to you, will tell you, "SFIV isn't that different from the last games, that's why I always play Guilty Gear, or Blazblue, or KOF, and whatever else...I never liked Capcom games, besides Darkstalkers, they are all really scrubby."

1. I know that. I play the fastest speeds the most on the old games, but I played the default at the arcades, and when I'm playing other people. The frame cut out depends on the game. Older games had more frame cut outs.

2. I didn't say you couldn't, I said it wasn't as easy. Vortexes, reversals, everything required more strict positioning and timing because the games were faster and had shorter reversal/execution windows.

3. People play them, just not as much as SFIV. People still talk about the games, and the complaints aren't the reversal windows lol. You also had places like Gamefaqs which had numerous members. People had complaints about the old games, and just because you liked one old game didn't mean you liked the other.

SF3- People complain about the balance.
MvC2- People complain about the balance.
SFA3- People complain about V-Ism
Capcom vs SNK2- people complain about execution and things like RC Electricity
SF4- people complain about what I mentioned.

The thing is, a person was not mashing through offensive intelligent blockstrings, because the average player didn't have the time to retalaite. Also keep in mind that the average gamer then was much more hardcore than now. Which is my point. Don't tell me the average person playing SF4 could go to Capcom vs SNK2 and pull off nearly as well, even after months of practice. They wouldn't, because many of their crutches would be gone.

Lol, where did you get I was mad? You guys bash Capcom constantly, and me pointing out legit flaws in the game that are there and I'm "mad", hardly. I think you're mad because you don't like the truth.

SFIV is scrubbier for those reasons and because of the lenient input windows. Mashing depends on the person, but the input windows are a legit point. I've been playing fighting games for a long time myself and posting proof has never been a problem for me, I don't see others posting much of it. I made a video proving auto targeting weapons in Twisted Metal and I still have fools telling me they don't exist. *sigh* As a matter of fact, lenient inputs, execution shortcuts, and long reversal frames all allow more sloppy execution and..... you guessed it, mashing. By the way ALL of the things (except ultras) were in the old games, the thing was, as I said, they weren't to the degree. You've always had some input lenience/negative edge. You've always had some ways to make commands easier, especially on complex stuff, etc. It's like you and I agree and disagree. These things weren't really problems because they were less easy to abuse. That's it. Not saying they weren't in the other games. Every split second or half second makes a huge difference, you know this.

Any person being you? I've probably played more fighters than anybody here. Clayfighter, Killer Instinct, various Street Fighter Games, Smash Brothers, King of Fighters, Guilty Gear, Darkstalkers, etc. Now if you're comparing SF4 to Killer Instinct and to SF2 of course the games seem more similar in comparison to another series, so what? But saying that SF4 plays like SF3 or Capcom vs SNK2 or Alpha 2 is just silly. I doubt all of those people are haters as they play the game, perhaps they just see legitimate problems. The ones who disagree with it tend to be apologists, like what I've seen. Btw this whole idea that people who bring up a legitimate point "hate" the game or are "mad" is just retarded and sounds like fanboyism.


The game is watered down on many levels and much easier to play. Yes it still has skill, and yes it has some flaws that were there before.

My point was never that the problems I mentioned didn't exist, only that they have a much stronger presence *now* than they did 10 years ago.


You can disagree with me, videos, and the majority (and you will, I know you) but it doesn't change the facts. This whole idea that Darkstalkers is 10,000x more deep than anything else is your opinion as well. You're welcome to it, but I don't agree.

I wouldn't call SF scrubby, that's more reserved for Mortal Kombat.

[atdsutm]

comparison

well im going to compare both gamesas KOF13 and SSF4AE2012 as they are probably the most balanced game. KOF13 in the initial arcades is a mess balanced-wise. and we also dont want yun/yang editions to be considered a legitimate SSF4 version.

footsies

footsies are pretty much evident even in KOF13 especially at the highest level of play. its just i think people are watching more USA high level vids compare to KOF13 high levels vids, and its obvious that the population and skill level in USA is much bigger and advanced compare to its KOF13 counterpart in the US. I have seen high levels of spacing in KOF13 but they are primarily focused in walking and reacting to 4 different kinds of jumps. Fundamentally it is still the same because it is comprised of spacing, distance to the wall, matchup tools,baiting tactics and reaction time, the only differences is that there are 4 kinds jump height and distances, which is also complex on its own.


mashing dps

reversal time should always be difficult and also punishes slow reaction time.


defensive play

defensive play should always be an important factor in fighting games and also a must for every fighting games. i dont want a fighting game that rewards too much offensive playstyle even with little knowledge how to defend versus something. a game that rewards defensive play will definitely make the skill ceiling higher and also lengthen gameplay longetivity, since you have to learn how to defend. i dont want everybody to just go spam mixups and attack as C.viper. Btw, the japanese do hate C.Viper because she is braindead as they say.


ultras vs HD

Ultras and HD are obviously designed as a comeback mechanic in the game and also helps deepen the game itself. but the only difference is that ultras itself can be used as a reversal tool compare to HD. some characters can do HD reversals though.
But obvious that HD is a deeper mechanic than ultras mainly because there are other possible applications of it. Take for example the current KOF13 metagame, at the time kof13 consoles appeared, characters were nerfed and much more balanced with lesser damage oppoturnities. People now are learning to do 50% HD bar combos instead of getting them to full. This also is much complex because it also that the metagame evolved from damage dealing, into efficient damage allocation. You have to also take into account if your are using the 2nd character or the third character or if you have enough meter to support the 50% HD combo bar, not to mention if your character is designed to deal combos better at 50% HD bar. There are some other characters that deal better with a full HD bar and some with a 50% HD bar.



difficult combos and other mechanics

difficult combos and complex mechanics are always welcome and important to a game, it helps prolongue the game and raises the skill ceiling to greater heights. Although it is still important to master the mechanics, its also great to have more facets in the game to outplay your opponent, not just in basic mechanics. Take for example justin wong try to win a kof13 tournament at the early days of the console release. He ended up third place because of his great mechanics, but later fought someone complete legitimate via mechanics and advance optimal combos. He looked like a scrub getting pwned. He obviously tried to take advantage of the time people are still learning the game since JWong obvious have all the time in the world to practice compare to most of the competitors, but versus people who are devoted to their own community, JWong couldnt enter anymore in the long run.

Take another example of a strategy game, CnC3 tiberium wars. The game at the initial stages were a complete mess where the noob looked no different from a top player as the skill ceiling was incredibly low, all you need is the basic flowchart build order and spam one type of unit. What happened is that a player name D.apollo won CnC3 WCG. This player is just obviously trying to win in a game that had no FACETS to outplay your opponent, and he won. This player is a D-Rank in Starcraft iccup league, and D-ranks are considered to be the weakest compare to A-ranks, its like comparing a super heavy weight to a flyweight.

Later on the game had an expansion named Kane's Wrath and was balanced and adjusted/patched for more complex and high level of play. This D.apollo guy never even existed during this era, as the more "advance" and loyal players won. D.apollo never had any love/loyalty to cnc3, he just came in for the easy money, which he couldnt do anymore since the game has been patched to improvement and had MORE FACETS that you could improve on and outplay your opponent in those categories.

The more things the game requires your to win and outplay your opponent the more deeper and complex the game will be, and thus improving longetivity and builds a strong community. This also depend if those facets have a more analog measurement instead of just being perfect or fail on those categories the better the skill ceiling will be.

Starcraft 1 is a good example of this as units are harder to manage and require more attention compare to starcraft 2. The more constant input of skill required and also requires you to outplay your opponent like 973218 times instead of one big fight to win it all.

[The Big Daddy C-Master]

Such an excellent post. I liked reading it. You didn't bicker, you laid some very solid points. Much props.

I was just messing around with C. Viper, you hurt my feelings.

But yea, it's crazy that characters like E. Ryu have to work so hard to win, when characters like Seth can just do what they want, when they want. I mean they are fun to play with in some ways, but it does feel a bit out of place, especially considering C. Viper plays very similar in MVC3, a game with very different mechanics.

Btw I need to see those Justin Wong videos. Would be cool to watch.

[Coolest thing Alive]

Apr 13, 2012 11:45:32 GMT -5 atdsutm said:

comparison

well im going to compare both gamesas KOF13 and SSF4AE2012 as they are probably the most balanced game. KOF13 in the initial arcades is a mess balanced-wise. and we also dont want yun/yang editions to be considered a legitimate SSF4 version.

footsies

footsies are pretty much evident even in KOF13 especially at the highest level of play. its just i think people are watching more USA high level vids compare to KOF13 high levels vids, and its obvious that the population and skill level in USA is much bigger and advanced compare to its KOF13 counterpart in the US. I have seen high levels of spacing in KOF13 but they are primarily focused in walking and reacting to 4 different kinds of jumps. Fundamentally it is still the same because it is comprised of spacing, distance to the wall, matchup tools,baiting tactics and reaction time, the only differences is that there are 4 kinds jump height and distances, which is also complex on its own.


mashing dps

reversal time should always be difficult and also punishes slow reaction time.


defensive play

defensive play should always be an important factor in fighting games and also a must for every fighting games. i dont want a fighting game that rewards too much offensive playstyle even with little knowledge how to defend versus something. a game that rewards defensive play will definitely make the skill ceiling higher and also lengthen gameplay longetivity, since you have to learn how to defend. i dont want everybody to just go spam mixups and attack as C.viper. Btw, the japanese do hate C.Viper because she is braindead as they say.


ultras vs HD

Ultras and HD are obviously designed as a comeback mechanic in the game and also helps deepen the game itself. but the only difference is that ultras itself can be used as a reversal tool compare to HD. some characters can do HD reversals though.
But obvious that HD is a deeper mechanic than ultras mainly because there are other possible applications of it. Take for example the current KOF13 metagame, at the time kof13 consoles appeared, characters were nerfed and much more balanced with lesser damage oppoturnities. People now are learning to do 50% HD bar combos instead of getting them to full. This also is much complex because it also that the metagame evolved from damage dealing, into efficient damage allocation. You have to also take into account if your are using the 2nd character or the third character or if you have enough meter to support the 50% HD combo bar, not to mention if your character is designed to deal combos better at 50% HD bar. There are some other characters that deal better with a full HD bar and some with a 50% HD bar.



difficult combos and other mechanics

difficult combos and complex mechanics are always welcome and important to a game, it helps prolongue the game and raises the skill ceiling to greater heights. Although it is still important to master the mechanics, its also great to have more facets in the game to outplay your opponent, not just in basic mechanics. Take for example justin wong try to win a kof13 tournament at the early days of the console release. He ended up third place because of his great mechanics, but later fought someone complete legitimate via mechanics and advance optimal combos. He looked like a scrub getting pwned. He obviously tried to take advantage of the time people are still learning the game since JWong obvious have all the time in the world to practice compare to most of the competitors, but versus people who are devoted to their own community, JWong couldnt enter anymore in the long run.

Take another example of a strategy game, CnC3 tiberium wars. The game at the initial stages were a complete mess where the noob looked no different from a top player as the skill ceiling was incredibly low, all you need is the basic flowchart build order and spam one type of unit. What happened is that a player name D.apollo won CnC3 WCG. This player is just obviously trying to win in a game that had no FACETS to outplay your opponent, and he won. This player is a D-Rank in Starcraft iccup league, and D-ranks are considered to be the weakest compare to A-ranks, its like comparing a super heavy weight to a flyweight.

Later on the game had an expansion named Kane's Wrath and was balanced and adjusted/patched for more complex and high level of play. This D.apollo guy never even existed during this era, as the more "advance" and loyal players won. D.apollo never had any love/loyalty to cnc3, he just came in for the easy money, which he couldnt do anymore since the game has been patched to improvement and had MORE FACETS that you could improve on and outplay your opponent in those categories.

The more things the game requires your to win and outplay your opponent the more deeper and complex the game will be, and thus improving longetivity and builds a strong community. This also depend if those facets have a more analog measurement instead of just being perfect or fail on those categories the better the skill ceiling will be.

Starcraft 1 is a good example of this as units are harder to manage and require more attention compare to starcraft 2. The more constant input of skill required and also requires you to outplay your opponent like 973218 times instead of one big fight to win it all.

I agree 100%, bro.

This discussion was about which game people liked better. There is no argument that KOFXIII is much more difficult and much more of a hardcore fighter than SFIV, by miles. SFIV is very scrubby in comparison.

However, the slow pace of SFIV, the sheer number of varying characters, the presence of both suffocating offense and turtling defense, lends SFIV far more in the way of tactical and strategic advantages, tho. It is virtually fighting game chess, while KOFXIII is more similar to rock paper scissors (and there's nothing wrong with that). Juicebox abandoned SFIV because he couldn't think on his feet and constantly failed to reach top 8, it wasn't his game. He then moves on to KOFXIII where he regularly beasts out. Same with J Wong, KOFXIII is not his game, same reason Wong hardly played Savior, BB, or Guilty Gear but is a monster at MVC2 and 3S. Vampire Savior is my second favorite fighter of all time and I can admit there is more strategy and tactical mayhem in SFIV than there is Vampire Savior. That said, Savior is far more execution heavy, requires more practice, is far less forgivin and I still like it more than SFIV.

Idk if that's Frisky's case, but it's mine. SFIV is still a SF game, SFIV can't offer you everything in every aspect. KOFXIII is still a KOF game, it can't offer you everything in every aspect. Both games have their strengths an weaknesses and offer different philosophies, it's all about which one you like more.

[The Big Daddy C-Master]

I think many people have felt that SF IV is a game or rock paper scissors with the mixup characters and spammable vortexes. People see KOF and faster paced games like high speed chess. That argument could go on forever.

I guess at this point we'll just have to have our tastes. SFIV can be very strategic depending on who you play and what character you use. Some characters are more footsie based than others.

Edit: So you think VS is more execution heavy but not more tactics heavy. Now that I didn't know. I thought you felt it had everything over SF before. Thanks for clearing that up for me.