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Post by Coolest thing Alive on Apr 13, 2012 14:34:37 GMT -5
You just can't admit that Capcom has made scrubbier games than their main competition since SF Alpha, can you (some game are exceptions)? The previous SF's, besides SFIII (parrying literally saves it) and MVC are all just a few notches below SFIVs casualness in the ways in which your are complaining about. Even CVS2 and Vampire Savior have the same issues, many of which to lesser a degree, but still noticeably present because that is how Capcom make's their games. - Mashin in reversals? Present in every Capcom fighter and present in the KOFs, too. (note that you don't have to mash, not even in SFIV. at high lvl play, you won't see mashin, you will be punished with more than DPs off a reversal, normally)? SFIV reversal windows are a few frames longer but when you have a 1 frame-invincible move, doesn't matter how long the window is, as long as there's even a 1 frame openin, when you mash DPs like hell, it's gonna come out. The 2 or 3 extra frames in SFIV is not preferred, but it also insures that characters without super fast 1 frame moves can bask in the glory of makin a player think twice about bustin out that super or that long recovery high-damage maneuver. - Slow pace? Present. SF is probably the slowest fightin series in mainstream. - Mix ups, cross ups, guessin games? Present since SFII. You'd hate Vampire Savior, it has more of that than SFIV and is 10X faster. - Shortcuts? Besides SFIV, CVS2 has the most shortcuts than any other Capcom fighting game. You really think Capcom wouldn't make shortcuts for SNK's ridiculous ( in comparison) commands? - I could go on. . . SFIV was toned down just a bit (in most areas) more than the previous games, just to let people in. And I never said Darkstalkers was more "deep" than anything else, you sound like a hater now. I said Vampire Savior gave birth to most of the modern mechanics in Capcom's fighting games and it demanded higher levels of execution than any of Capcom's other fighting games. This is not an opinion. Seth Killian, s-Kill, Mr. Domination 101 even says it. No doubt yur pointin out flaws in SFIV, yur just pointin most of the flaws in all the other SF games, too. SFIV is not magically more scrubby cuz it was made in 2008. I think many people have felt that SF IV is a game or rock paper scissors with the mixup characters and spammable vortexes. People see KOF and faster paced games like high speed chess. That argument could go on forever. I guess at this point we'll just have to have our tastes. SFIV can be very strategic depending on who you play and what character you use. Some characters are more footsie based than others. You may not like'em, but they are there. KOFXIII is about assaultin the shit outta yur opponent in a high execution, multifaceted-offensive slugfest. There are no Dhalsims, or Sagats, or Vipers, Seths, or Ibukis, Akumas, or Zangiefs... In KOFXIII, all the characters play much differently but at the end, their is only 1 way to win, beatin the shit out of your opponent. The Street Fighter series ( includin IV, more than any other, besides II) sets itself apart from every other fighter for the most simplest reason. There is more than 1 way to win. - You can get Yun or Fei Long and beat the livin hell outta yur foe. - You can get Ryu to zone to the point of turtlin or Zangief to just out-right turtle and beat competitors. - You can choose Viper or Ibuki to knock someone down and force the unlucky bastard to guess the entire match. - You can pick Sagat or Dhalsim and play keep away. Whittle down your opponent's health down and run like hell until you win. - Some characters have hands in multiple areas to varyin degrees. Not ever character can piss you off like Seth an Viper in making you think about how you'll respond on wake up. Every character doesn't have a vortex. Every character isn't susceptible to reversals at the same rate. Every character doesn't have the same amount of reversal options, etc... You may only be a fan of the 1st option, but oh damn well. That's how SF has always been (SFIII not included), SFIV more so than since SFII. |
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The Big Daddy C-Master
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Post by The Big Daddy C-Master on Apr 13, 2012 16:16:25 GMT -5
You "snipped" me lol. Feels like I'm at SRK. You just can't admit that Capcom has made scrubbier games than their main competition since SF Alpha, can you (some game are exceptions)? The previous SF's, besides SFIII (parrying literally saves it) and MVC are all just a few notches below SFIVs casualness in the ways in which your are complaining about. Even CVS2 and Vampire Savior have the same issues, many of which to lesser a degree, but still noticeably present because that is how Capcom make's their games. - Mashin in reversals? Present in every Capcom fighter and present in the KOFs, too. (note that you don't have to mash, not even in SFIV. at high lvl play, you won't see mashin, you will be punished with more than DPs off a reversal, normally)? SFIV reversal windows are a few frames longer but when you have a 1 frame-invincible move, doesn't matter how long the window is, as long as there's even a 1 frame openin, when you mash DPs like hell, it's gonna come out. The 2 or 3 extra frames in SFIV is not preferred, but it also insures that characters without super fast 1 frame moves can bask in the glory of makin a player think twice about bustin out that super or that long recovery high-damage maneuver. - Slow pace? Present. SF is probably the slowest fightin series in mainstream. - Mix ups, cross ups, guessin games? Present since SFII. You'd hate Vampire Savior, it has more of that than SFIV and is 10X faster. - Shortcuts? Besides SFIV, CVS2 has the most shortcuts than any other Capcom fighting game. You really think Capcom wouldn't make shortcuts for SNK's ridiculous ( in comparison) commands? - I could go on. . . SFIV was toned down just a bit (in most areas) more than the previous games, just to let people in. And I never said Darkstalkers was more "deep" than anything else, you sound like a hater now. I said Vampire Savior gave birth to most of the modern mechanics in Capcom's fighting games and it demanded higher levels of execution than any of Capcom's other fighting games. This is not an opinion. Seth Killian, s-Kill, Mr. Domination 101 even says it. No doubt yur pointin out flaws in SFIV, yur just pointin most of the flaws in all the other SF games, too. SFIV is not magically more scrubby cuz it was made in 2008. Who said anything about making games scrubbier than their main competition? The problem isn't me. The problem is the apologist attitude when I point out blatant flaws in the game that are there. Telling me, "It's not that bad" or " The other games had those problems somewhat too." Doesn't take away from my point, because I already know that. Killer Instinct has its scrub factor, Mortal Kombat Has its scrub factor, Smash Brothers has its scrub factor, etc. I don't really care about sides. They've all been competition and they've all had flaws. The problem is you not wanting to admit that Street Fighter, along with a TON of other games have been watered down to suit the casual base. Please don't tell me I'm taking sides here. You are going to seriously tell me that Street Fighter 4, Marvel vs Capcom 3, and Street Fighter x Tekken play VERY CLOSE to Marvel vs Capcom 2, Street Fighter 3, and Capcom vs SNK2? Yes all of the games had their flaws, but I can tell you that the first more modern games play like each other (Street Fighter x Tekken took SF4 and just made the main problems even worse), and the last 3 played a lot like each other (mechanics of course vary, but the switching time between the games is minimal). If you believe that those games all play the same, I call bs and I wouldn't be the only one. The mechanics and physics have changed, the leniency has changed, they have more crap like X-Factors, Gems, Ultras, the games simply do NOT play the same. More like each other than say Smash Brothers, but that's common sense. And btw it isn't just even Street Fighter, most games have the problem I'm talking about. Yes they are just adjusting with the times of modern gamers but the point still stands. Duke Nukem has auto health refill and 2 weapons with more linear levels compared to the old game, this is to help out more modern gamers. Twisted Metal PS3 has auto homing weapons (undodgeable on lock) and 1 button inputs where the other games had combos. This game also has aim assist. Much more casual friendly than Black. Shooting games, racing games, etc ALL have become more watered down and this is a fact. KOF XIII is one of the games that didn't. Yes mashing reversals is possible, just less likely, this is a fact so lets move on. It's not up for debate. I was never talking about super long moves and ultra moves. I was talking about scrubs not using timing and simply mashing away and being rewarded for it. I said this game plays and feels slower and it does. There are games that were slower than SF and some that were faster, the point is you notice the difference when you switch games. OBVIOUSLY there are mixups in older games, lol. That's part of strategy. I'm talking about certain characters who play outside of the engine and turn the match against most of the cast into basically a coin flip. That's a totally different issue than "mixing up" and you know it. I've played some DS, but not as much as you. Pretty fun game. Lists these tons of insane shortcuts with input leniency? I already noted that all of the other games had shortcuts, I just said there weren't as many of them in older games, so you're only rehashing what I said. If I were to play only SFIV I'd have trouble adjusting to the input requirements of the past games in comparison DUE to the leniency. Capcom vs SNK 2 is more strict in timing even in things like parrying when compared to SF3. Marvel vs Capcom 2 had easier commands (just high level execution stuff like Magneto) Nothing to do with "magic" it has to do with the things I just said. SFxTekken, SFIV, and Marvel vs Capcom 3 are WAY more scrubby than their past counterparts. You can disagree but you'd be in the minority there. Of course you didn't say 10,000 times more deep, you did say it was pretty much the "deepest most balanced fighter". And hating on what? Please. Lol. You guys love the series and that's fine. KOFXIII is about assaultin the shit outta yur opponent in a high execution, multifaceted-offensive slugfest. There are no Dhalsims, or Sagats, or Vipers, Seths, or Ibukis, Akumas, or Zangiefs... In KOFXIII, all the characters play much differently but at the end, their is only 1 way to win, beatin the shit out of your opponent. The Street Fighter series ( includin IV, more than any other, besides II) sets itself apart from every other fighter for the most simplest reason. There is more than 1 way to win. - You can get Yun or Fei Long and beat the livin hell outta yur foe. - You can get Ryu to zone to the point of turtlin or Zangief to just out-right turtle and beat competitors. - You can choose Viper or Ibuki to knock someone down and force the unlucky bastard to guess the entire match. - You can pick Sagat or Dhalsim and play keep away. Whittle down your opponent's health down and run like hell until you win. - Some characters have hands in multiple areas to varyin degrees. Not ever character can piss you off like Seth an Viper in making you think about how you'll respond on wake up. Every character doesn't have a vortex. Every character isn't susceptible to reversals at the same rate. Every character doesn't have the same amount of reversal options, etc... You may only be a fan of the 1st option, but oh damn well. That's how SF has always been (SFIII not included), SFIV more so than since SFII. Beating the shit out of your opponent is in both games. It's just more offensive based, the game rewards offense more than defense, while SF is the opposite. There are multiple ways to win as well. The bottom line is that in fighters you generally have Zoners, rushdown, defensive, and grapple (mostly). They both have those styles, it's just that SF's mechanics reward certain strategies more and KOF rewards their strategies more. The Seth and Viper thing has more to do with them having a variety of options and not having to play footsies or anything else, but that's already been pointed out. Lol, why do you assume I'm only a fan of option #1? I believe in any game there should be defensive and offensive play or the game gets stale. Doesn't matter if it's a shooter or a fighter. Yes some games are going to tilt one way more than the other but the point is the same. Capcom vs SNK 2 probably played more turtley than any other Capcom Game, I still like it a lot. I just think the mechanics in KOF XIII edge it out over SFIV, that's all. SFIV is a bit too casual friendly and it also rewards bad habits when you go play the older stuff, KOF XIII really doesn't. I don't think SFIV is TERRIBLE (I gave it above a 9) I don't think KOF XIII is a "million" times better, but I do feel it's a decent amount better, looking at nuts and bolts. |
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Post by Coolest thing Alive on Apr 13, 2012 17:34:41 GMT -5
Who said anything about making games scrubbier than their main competition? The problem isn't me. The problem is the apologist attitude when I point out blatant flaws in the game that are there. Telling me, "It's not that bad" or " The other games had those problems somewhat too." Doesn't take away from my point, because I already know that. lulz It has nothin to do with being an "apologist". It has everything to do with you bashin the livin shit outta SFIV for being a little bit more noobish in the areas you brought up. Then worshipin the games that came before it cuz they are a lil less scrubby in the same areas. It wreaks of bull shit, dawg. You are going to seriously tell me that Street Fighter 4, Marvel vs Capcom 3, and Street Fighter x Tekken play VERY CLOSE to Marvel vs Capcom 2, Street Fighter 3, and Capcom vs SNK2? I'm tellin you that! The only way you'd be unable to see that is if you played the games causally, on consoles, or maybe even used a pad. That's all I can think of. If you believe that those games all play the same, I call bs and I wouldn't be the only one. The mechanics and physics have changed, the leniency has changed, they have more crap like X-Factors, Gems, Ultras, the games simply do NOT play the same. More like each other than say Smash Brothers, but that's common sense. I'm not sayin they all play the same. I'm sayin they all have the same flaws. That is how Capcom makes their games. I wasn't talkin about the comeback mechanics. I'm speakin only about the intricacies. The lame combeack mechanics is what launches the game into new heights of nooberdom. The other stuff, tho, has always been there and has only seen slight changes. Yes mashing reversals is possible, just less likely, this is a fact so lets move on. It's not up for debate. I was never talking about super long moves and ultra moves. I was talking about scrubs not using timing and simply mashing away and being rewarded for it. That not my point. It's not less likely enough to hate on it, that's my key issue. You gotta learn the frame data, dawg. DPs will come out no matter how small the window is, unless there is no window. KOFXIII works the same way with EXs, mash'em to break outta offensive onslaughts, if you have'em. OBVIOUSLY there are mixups in older games, lol. That's part of strategy. I'm talking about certain characters who play outside of the engine and turn the match against most of the cast into basically a coin flip. lol 1. It's not that bad. If it were, Poongko or Latiff woulda won EVO last year. 2. It's that character's strength to have that ability. Deal with it or don't play the game. Lists these tons of insane shortcuts with input leniency? I already noted that all of the other games had shortcuts, I just said there weren't as many of them in older games, so you're only rehashing what I said. If I were to play only SFIV I'd have trouble adjusting to the input requirements of the past games in comparison DUE to the leniency. Capcom vs SNK 2 is more strict in timing even in things like parrying when compared to SF3. Marvel vs Capcom 2 had easier commands (just high level execution stuff like Magneto) Lol CVS2 has the same amount of input leniency as SFA3 which is terrible compared to most of Capcom's other games. That's not a bad thing, tho. Just cuz somethin aint stupidly hard to preform doesn't mean it's not good lulz again. wiki.shoryuken.com/Category:Capcom_vs_SNK_2Click on every character and bring up the word search and type "shortcut" lol. Hell, for 100% of the cast that has qfcX2 supers, you don't even have to go back into a neutral position for the 2nd qfc, nor do you have to do the 2nd qfc in full, at all. Not to mention that I already said SFIV's shortcuts and input leniency were a serious problem in comparison to older games. SFIV's case is awful, I just had to clear up the bull shit of you makin it sound like past games barely had any. They were everywhere. Nothing to do with "magic" it has to do with the things I just said. SFxTekken, SFIV, and Marvel vs Capcom 3 are WAY more scrubby than their past counterparts. I agree, just not for all the same reasons you said. say it was pretty much the "deepest most balanced fighter"... ... Capcom has ever made and that's true. By "deep", I meant in execution and the sheer number of original mechanics. And it is in no doubt the most balanced fighter Capcom has ever created (til' SFIV and MVC3). Anakaris is the shitiest character in the game and he can win a whole tourney in the right hands...more than he should. No other Capcom game can make that claim. Beating the shit out of your opponent is in both games. It's just more offensive based, lol You are wrong. You may not have been if we were talkin about OG SFIV. SFIV's current top tier are all offensive monsters with little health lol (glass canons). SFIV embraces all play styles. Not to say that it has anything on KOFXIII's offensive game. KOFXIII is a master of offensive pressure and SFIV is a jack of all trades. The bottom line is that in fighters you generally have Zoners, rushdown, defensive, and grapple (mostly). They both have those styles, it's just that SF's mechanics reward certain strategies more and KOF rewards their strategies more. KOFXIII rewards one style of overall strategy. Prove me wrong. The Seth and Viper thing has more to do with them having a variety of options and not having to play footsies or anything else, but that's already been pointed out. They have a variety of options dealin in mind fuckery and they've always been that way and have recently only been top tier. They are still glass canons, they don't wanna play any footsies for very long. Lol, why do you assume I'm only a fan of option #1? I believe in any game there should be defensive and offensive play or the game gets stale. Doesn't matter if it's a shooter or a fighter. Yes some games are going to tilt one way more than the other but the point is the same. Capcom vs SNK 2 probably played more turtley than any other Capcom Game, I still like it a lot. I just think the mechanics in KOF XIII edge it out over SFIV, that's all. SFIV is a bit too casual friendly and it also rewards bad habits when you go play the older stuff, KOF XIII really doesn't. I don't think SFIV is TERRIBLE (I gave it above a 9) I don't think KOF XIII is a "million" times better, but I do feel it's a decent amount better, looking at nuts and bolts. That's cool. Nothin wrong with yur opinion dawg, and a lot of it is true. Clearly I disagree with some of it, but that's part of being human. And I think we both can agree that CVS2 is better than any SFIV. |
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The Big Daddy C-Master
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Living life to the fullest, and it feels great.
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Posts: 26,387
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Post by The Big Daddy C-Master on Apr 13, 2012 18:47:54 GMT -5
lulz It has nothin to do with being an "apologist". It has everything to do with you bashin the livin shit outta SFIV for being a little bit more noobish in the areas you brought up. Then worshipin the games that came before it cuz they are a lil less scrubby in the same areas. It wreaks of bull shit, dawg. It is being an apologist. You aren't doing it so much, but Frisky was making everything seem like it wasn't a big deal. I was not "bashing the living shit out of it" I originally only stated that I thought KOF was superior and I stated complete facts and you guys jumped on the train to defend it. No bullshit at all. Then you accuse me of "hating the game" or "I don't know frame data" or "Don't play the game." Pointing out legitimate flaws and mechanics doesn't make me "hate" the game. That's more bs than anything and it's a tired argument. And it isn't a "little bit". It's quite a bit more. Take a casual player playing SF4 against a casual player who played the classics and I'd say the casual player back then would be overall more skill due to the requirements of the game. YES, GOD DAMMIT! Yes!I'm tellin you that! The only way you'd be unable to see that is if you played the games causally, on consoles, or maybe even used a pad. That's all I can think of. SFxTekken does NOT play like the classic crossup games unless you're comparing it to Smash. You have to be kidding me. Yes the commands are similar, but the objective and the way the game is played is vastly different. I call utter bs on that one. I'm not sayin they all play the same. I'm sayin they all have the same flaws. That is how Capcom makes their games. I wasn't talkin about the comeback mechanics. I'm speakin only about the intricacies. The lame combeack mechanics is what launches the game into new heights of nooberdom. The other stuff, tho, has always been there and has only seen slight changes. It is *not* slight. A few frames makes all the difference. You're telling me to learn frame data and you're going to tell me you didn't know that? That not my point. It's not less likely enough to hate on it, that's my key issue. You gotta learn the frame data, dawg. DPs will come out no matter how small the window is, unless there is no window. KOFXIII works the same way with EXs, mash'em to break outta offensive onslaughts, if you have'em. Hate on it? No, I like the game. I just watched a high level match between two friends of mine that I set up. I'm just more objective than most. I point out flaws in all games, whether I like them or not. I don't *need* to learn the frame data, and btw Shoryuken has more than 1f of invincibility in SF4, depending on the character and the strength you use. Evil Ryu has *5* frames of invincibility with just his Mp shoryu and it comes out in 3 frames. 1 frame and 5 frames is a big difference. The difference between countering an jump in or trading with it more often. Learn frame data dawg.  lol 1. It's not that bad. If it were, Poongko or Latiff woulda won EVO last year. 2. It's that character's strength to have that ability. Deal with it or don't play the game. They are still very successful and it *is* a significant presensce, those characters are top tier for a reason. Please. The game is ALL about untechable knockdown and mixing up. The game simply doesn't have the defensive offensive options of games past to deal with jump in mixups as easily, which is why vortexes are easier to set off than they were back when T. Hawk used them in SF2. Don't give me the "don't play the game crap." Why is it that me pointing out something means I can't deal with it. I'm actually messing around with Viper now just for fun as I wanted to try a different character, Seth is spammed too much and Evil Ryu got me to buy the game. See I'm objective, even if I use it I can still point it out unlike 99% of the population. Just like Twisted Metal and homing machine guns from air vehicles. They are overpowered and required a nerf as a person could exploit them and spam them pretty much infinitely. I main Reaper, but I can use the air vehicles very well and admit it's a significant advantage to force confrontations when you want with a high damage per second item. It would be like pointing out V-ism in Alpha 3. Doesn't mean I cant deal with it or don't know how to use it. It was still a bit overpowered. So the "don't play the game" is more of an attack on me than my argument. Who cares about 2 players. Many players win using Seth and Viper a lot more and some admit they beat people they really shouldn't. Lol CVS2 has the same amount of input leniency as SFA3 which is terrible compared to most of Capcom's other games. That's not a bad thing, tho. Just cuz somethin aint stupidly hard to preform doesn't mean it's not good lulz again. wiki.shoryuken.com/Category:Capcom_vs_SNK_2Click on every character and bring up the word search and type "shortcut" lol. Hell, for 100% of the cast that has qfcX2 supers, you don't even have to go back into a neutral position for the 2nd qfc, nor do you have to do the 2nd qfc in full, at all. Not to mention that I already said SFIV's shortcuts and input leniency were a serious problem in comparison to older games. SFIV's case is awful, I just had to clear up the bull shit of you makin it sound like past games barely had any. They were everywhere. I agree, just not for all the same reasons you said. You do know that the command list had the 2qcf, as quarter circle and then down diagonal? That's not an input shortcut that's a given. And yes there were ways around it. It wasn't so far off as hitting 6 points on a stick to do a 360 (making it easier to use on ground even for newer players) or the df, db, df shoryuken. Lastly those shortcuts can get annoying when you are crouching and trying to go to qcf and you end up doing a half circle motion, like the axe kick. The input shortcuts in the old games were at least set up so they didn't get in the way. Competence on their part I suppose. ... Capcom has ever made and that's true. By "deep", I meant in execution and the sheer number of original mechanics. And it is in no doubt the most balanced fighter Capcom has ever created (til' SFIV and MVC3). Anakaris is the shitiest character in the game and he can win a whole tourney in the right hands...more than he should. No other Capcom game can make that claim. MVC3 was balanced? Lol, agree to disagree there. The game had a rerelease only a few months later. Street Fighter 4 got balanced after a few tries. Better than before. lol You are wrong. You may not have been if we were talkin about OG SFIV. SFIV's current top tier are all offensive monsters with little health lol (glass canons). SFIV embraces all play styles. Not to say that it has anything on KOFXIII's offensive game. KOFXIII is a master of offensive pressure and SFIV is a jack of all trades. Again. I've already been over this. The reasons that the characters like Seth, Viper, and Akuma are top tier are simply because they have sooooooo many tools, mixups, options, and moves that they don't have to play the same game the other characters play, and they can blow past defense easily. In a game where it's all about untechable knockdown, they are godly. Street Fighter has pretty much always rewarded defense more than other fighters. Just a fact. Yun was top tier because he was overpowered and just had so many safe mixups and attacks that others can't deal with. It isn't that way with 85% of the cast or so. KOFXIII rewards one style of overall strategy. Prove me wrong. It rewards more offense and SFIV rewards untechable knockdown. It's all about untechable knockdown, the other games weren't like this because you had more defensive/offensive options. They have a variety of options dealin in mind fuckery and they've always been that way and have recently only been top tier. They are still glass canons, they don't wanna play any footsies for very long. Seth was always good, he's been nerfed ever since, nobody picked him up and mastered him until later, much like Viper. This has already been covered though. That's cool. Nothin wrong with yur opinion dawg, and a lot of it is true. Clearly I disagree with some of it, but that's part of being human. And I think we both can agree that CVS2 is better than any SFIV. True dat. I still love you guys, even though you're both crazy. |
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The Big Daddy C-Master
Big Daddy
Living life to the fullest, and it feels great.
I'm still here... for now...
Posts: 26,387
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Post by The Big Daddy C-Master on Apr 13, 2012 18:58:31 GMT -5
Oh and my opinion on SF4 is this. It's watered down a good bit, but it's NOT a bad game, and is in NO way worse than that trash SFxTekken.
Good game, good fun, takes skill to play. Still catered to casuals more than the other games.
Just so we're clear on that. I don't think it's "unplayable garbage" or a "scrub mashfest" overall. Some people seem to think I feel that way so I was just clearing it up.
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Post by Coolest thing Alive on Apr 13, 2012 23:13:53 GMT -5
It is being an apologist. You aren't doing it so much, but Frisky was making everything seem like it wasn't a big deal. I was not "bashing the living shit out of it" I originally only stated that I thought KOF was superior and I stated complete facts and you guys jumped on the train to defend it. No bullshit at all. Then you accuse me of "hating the game" or "I don't know frame data" or "Don't play the game." Pointing out legitimate flaws and mechanics doesn't make me "hate" the game. That's more bs than anything and it's a tired argument. And it isn't a "little bit". It's quite a bit more. Take a casual player playing SF4 against a casual player who played the classics and I'd say the casual player back then would be overall more skill due to the requirements of the game. Idk about all that other shit you talkin, I know I came in on the convo cuz you said you could not mash out on a reversals in older games, at all. And that's ridiculous and I addressed it cuz in older games you had to mash even harder than you do now. SFxTekken does NOT play like the classic crossup games unless you're comparing it to Smash. You have to be kidding me. Yes the commands are similar, but the objective and the way the game is played is vastly different. I call utter bs on that one. Besides the gems, prove this. It is *not* slight. A few frames makes all the difference. You're telling me to learn frame data and you're going to tell me you didn't know that? We're not talkin about frame dats across the board, were talkin about reversal, specifically. If yur being pounced on in an offensive string and you are mashin DPs hard enough to the point where a DP will come out every frame, when there is a 1 frame openin and your doin a move that's invincible since the very 1st frame...do the God Damn math! Larger frames openings (in reversals) only mean you have don't have to mash as much, ala, SFIV. The reversal windows are scrubby compared to SFII and DS1, but any Capcom game after that, not that much more noobish. I point out flaws in all games, whether I like them or not. Yeah, sure. Purdy sure if this whole thing hadn't evolved to this point, the entire discussion would be about SFIV's inadequacies, most of them, shared in previous games, but you keep sayin that. I don't *need* to learn the frame data, and btw Shoryuken has more than 1f of invincibility in SF4, depending on the character and the strength you use. Evil Ryu has *5* frames of invincibility with just his Mp shoryu and it comes out in 3 frames. 1 frame and 5 frames is a big difference. The difference between countering an jump in or trading with it more often. Learn frame data dawg. I know that. Coulda sworn I said, "You can mash out DPs thru jab strings in the older SF games, it all depends on how fast the character's jab is. Ryu, Ken, and a few other DPs (clearly I'm not insinuatin everybody has the same DP properties) have always had 1 frame-invincible on start ups, just like SFIV.""1 frame-invincible on start ups" doesn't mean it starts in 1 frame, I'm sayin it gains invincibility on the 1st frame. I haven't played IV in eons so don't I know how long the DPs are invincible, now. If the DP is invincible on the very 1st frame, it's gonna beat out everything and trade with things of similar properties, no matter how long the reversal window is. It's invincible on start up = 1 frame = (1f), it's gonna come out no matter what. When I told you to "learn frame data", I didn't mean learn SFIVs data (i don't even know all the current data), I mean learn what it means. Cuz when you say things like the longer reversal windows, encourages more mashin, you sound lost. It, in fact, gives noobish lvls of leeway to properly time with BIG
punishes into FADC < Ultras, not just mashin DPs or whatever works. They are still very successful and it *is* a significant presensce, those characters are top tier for a reason. Please. The game is ALL about untechable knockdown and mixing up. The game simply doesn't have the defensive offensive options of games past to deal with jump in mixups as easily, which is why vortexes are easier to set off than they were back when T. Hawk used them in SF2. 1. *sigh* They always had this, they just got top tier. They were mid tier before with the same properties you're bitchin about now. 2. How is the game is ALL about untechable knockdowns and mix ups, when everyone isn't very good at it? 3. Everyone doesn't have vortexes, and everyone with vortexes isn't top tier. 4. "The game simply doesn't have the defensive offensive options of games past to deal with jump in mixups as easily"Prove this statement. 6. Vortexes and mix ups are good, just adds another layer to the game's depth. Don't give me the "don't play the game crap." Why is it that me pointing out something means I can't deal with it. I'm actually messing around with Viper now just for fun as I wanted to try a different character, Seth is spammed too much and Evil Ryu got me to buy the game. See I'm objective, even if I use it I can still point it out unlike 99% of the population. Just like Twisted Metal and homing machine guns from air vehicles. They are overpowered and required a nerf as a person could exploit them and spam them pretty much infinitely. I main Reaper, but I can use the air vehicles very well and admit it's a significant advantage to force confrontations when you want with a high damage per second item. It would be like pointing out V-ism in Alpha 3. Doesn't mean I cant deal with it or don't know how to use it. It was still a bit overpowered. So the "don't play the game" is more of an attack on me than my argument. Never said you couldn't deal with, you just seem very butthurt about dealin with it. It's part of the game. Put the stick down and walk away if this glorious set of mind games is a flaw to you. Who cares about 2 players. Many players win using Seth and Viper a lot more and some admit they beat people they really shouldn't. I'm talkin about numbers 2 and 3 at EVO. If your not even placin top 16, hell if you're not even tryin to compete, yur opinion on the characters is a bit above meaningless. These are the best players in the world usin all the shit you hate and still can't win. Proof is in the puddin dawg, some random nobody on SRK aint tellin me shit about these characters and how "overpowered" they are. You do know that the command list had the 2qcf, as quarter circle and then down diagonal? That's not an input shortcut that's a given. The in game command list? For every Shinku? Prove this. And allowin you too just do it without havin 1 second pause between the 1st qfc? Prove this as well. And yes there were ways around it. It wasn't so far off as hitting 6 points on a stick to do a 360 (making it easier to use on ground even for newer players) or the df, db, df shoryuken. Lastly those shortcuts can get annoying when you are crouching and trying to go to qcf and you end up doing a half circle motion, like the axe kick. The input shortcuts in the old games were at least set up so they didn't get in the way. Competence on their part I suppose. Reread what I told you, I said SFIV has much worse input leniency and shortcuts than the games of old, even Frisky said that. You made it seem like the older games had none of this, and that's utter bs. MVC3 was balanced? Lol, agree to disagree there. The game had a rerelease only a few months later. Street Fighter 4 got balanced after a few tries. Better than before. Those games are more balanced than everything else Capcom has ever made in the past, except Vampire Savior (and that was prolly a freak accident). Older Capcom games are notorious for horrible balance gaps. Again. I've already been over this. The reasons that the characters like Seth, Viper, and Akuma are top tier are simply because they have sooooooo many tools, mixups, options, and moves that they don't have to play the same game the other characters play, and they can blow past defense easily. In a game where it's all about untechable knockdown, they are godly. Street Fighter has pretty much always rewarded defense more than other fighters. Just a fact. lol You keep ignorin me when I tell you that they always had this guessin game aspect to'em since OG IV and were never top tier, til' now. Keep ignorin that fact, tho. Don't even go to the change logs to find out what made them top tier, finally. Has nothin to do with increasin the potency of their "mix ups and untechable" knock downs. shoryuken.com/2011/11/29/final-super-street-fighter-iv-ae-ver-2012-change-log-all-characters/It rewards more offense and SFIV rewards untechable knockdown. It's all about untechable knockdown, the other games weren't like this because you had more defensive/offensive options. Only certain characters excel on untechable knockdowns. And untechable knock downs are great! Adds more offensive pressure and more to think about. So yeah, that theory is out the window. But I've went thru this with you before. Seth was always good, he's been nerfed ever since, nobody picked him up and mastered him until later, much like Viper. This has already been covered though. Don't get me wrong, their trickery helps like hell, it's part of their design, but their guessing games isn't what finally got'em to top tier. They've always been mid teir, 'til now. Seth had almost 20 less than 5.0 match ups, C+ tier in a game where tiers went up to all the way up to S. Viper had 10, less than 5 match ups, B- tier. This is just from the last game. Not even gonna argue with you about SFIV's new top tier. Yur not gonna listen True dat. I still love you guys, even though you're both crazy. lol You know it's all love, dawg. |
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Post by Blaze72 on Apr 14, 2012 0:09:22 GMT -5
FIGHT, FIGHT, FIGHT!!
yeah i'll shut up now.
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The Big Daddy C-Master
Big Daddy
Living life to the fullest, and it feels great.
I'm still here... for now...
Posts: 26,387
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Post by The Big Daddy C-Master on Apr 14, 2012 6:16:58 GMT -5
If your whole argument is based on what you think "I SEEMED" to say, or some crap like that, then it's a stupid argument. I just read your whole post and everything you came back with is that I "seemed" to think this, and I "seemed butthurt", and that I "hate" Street Fighter 4. That's just a crappy subjective argument with no proof because I never said it. Everything I said was pretty much fact that could be proven with numbers. Everything else comes down to how you feel it effects the game vs I feel it effects the game, but please stop telling me what I "seemed" to imply, because I never implied it, and saying that is just a weak argument or looking to argue. Don't tell me what I "felt" like I was saying when I'm typing words on a screen. Just sayin'. Idk about all that other shit you talkin, I know I came in on the convo cuz you said you could not mash out on a reversals in older games, at all. And that's ridiculous and I addressed it cuz in older games you had to mash even harder than you do now. Please, you came in the convo because I was arguing with your twin. I simply said it was EASIER to mash out reversals because it was more lenient. Yes you could mash in the older games, but it was harder to do so as you had to have better reaction times. Now that I've made that clear yet again, could you please stop skewing what I say? Not saying you're doing it intentionally, but it's there. Besides the gems, prove this. I just think you're full of shit, lol. It's ultimately subjective, but you'd be on your own if you think they ALL play the same. Marvel vs Capcom never played like Street Fighter to begin with. Now you're being ridiculous and just want to argue. Don't tell me trash like this: Plays like this: The jumping mechanics, rolling mechanics, AA, and game plays TOTALLY different. Even screen size makes things different. The games don't play the same by a long shot. We're not talkin about frame dats across the board, were talkin about reversal, specifically. If yur being pounced on in an offensive string and you are mashin DPs hard enough to the point where a DP will come out every frame, when there is a 1 frame openin and your doin a move that's invincible since the very 1st frame...do the God Damn math! Larger frames openings (in reversals) only mean you have don't have to mash as much, ala, SFIV. The reversal windows are scrubby compared to SFII and DS1, but any Capcom game after that, not that much more noobish. Still meaning it's easier to mash out though. A casual person playing THIS game, who will no doubt be worse than a gamer 10 years ago, will not have the reaction time to mash out with a reversal and succeed due to the stricter timing. It's just a simple fact. Yes you could mash, but if you weren't very careful it would be unsuccessful. A noob playing SFIV would never be successful at mashing reversals in the other games. Yeah, sure. Purdy sure if this whole thing hadn't evolved to this point, the entire discussion would be about SFIV's inadequacies, most of them, shared in previous games, but you keep sayin that. Yea, I know I'm sure. The whole thing evolved because you keep telling me what you "think" I said or what you "feel I'm implying", when almost everything I said was a statistical fact in the first place. Your side kept arguing that I hated SFIV, I don't. YOUR side kept arguing that I was bashing the living shit out of it, I didn't, I was going over some things like a fine tooth comb. *Your* side kept arguing I was butthurt, hardly, I can play the game just fine and I even like playing with Viper and Seth, but the point still remains. Your side was trying to imply I didn't know what I was talking about, when I was in fact *right*. You can look at my posts on Duke Nukem or Twisted Metal, games I love very much and I point out flaws in those games all the same. So you're full of shit if you think I don't. You know where I can't point out flaws in a game? Around hardcore fanboys or apologists. If I go to the Twisted Metal site and I mention how automatic homing missiles hurt the metagame, they'd just tell me I was butthurt and need to learn to "deal with it". Even though I'm one of the best players around. 100% rank, and I can play with the best of the best and beat them. Hell I even host high level tournaments/matches for Twisted Metal and made a thread here: I know that. Coulda sworn I said, "You can mash out DPs thru jab strings in the older SF games, it all depends on how fast the character's jab is. Ryu, Ken, and a few other DPs (clearly I'm not insinuatin everybody has the same DP properties) have always had 1 frame-invincible on start ups, just like SFIV.""1 frame-invincible on start ups" doesn't mean it starts in 1 frame, I'm sayin it gains invincibility on the 1st frame. I haven't played IV in eons so don't I know how long the DPs are invincible, now. If the DP is invincible on the very 1st frame, it's gonna beat out everything and trade with things of similar properties, no matter how long the reversal window is. It's invincible on start up = 1 frame = (1f), it's gonna come out no matter what. When I told you to "learn frame data", I didn't mean learn SFIVs data (i don't even know all the current data), I mean learn what it means. Cuz when you say things like the longer reversal windows, encourages more mashin, you sound lost. It, in fact, gives noobish lvls of leeway to properly time with BIG
punishes into FADC < Ultras, not just mashin DPs or whatever works. Longer reversal windows give people a longer time to retaliate and rewards defensive play, shorter reversal windows ala KOF means less time to retaliate and it rewards offense. The longer window, slower game speed, shortcuts, and input leniency was put in there to help newer players cope, and ALL of those things encourage more mashing! ABC. 1+1=2. Doesn't get any clearer than that. 1. *sigh* They always had this, they just got top tier. They were mid tier before with the same properties you're bitchin about now. 2. How is the game is ALL about untechable knockdowns and mix ups, when everyone isn't very good at it? 3. Everyone doesn't have vortexes, and everyone with vortexes isn't top tier. 4. "The game simply doesn't have the defensive offensive options of games past to deal with jump in mixups as easily"Prove this statement. 6. Vortexes and mix ups are good, just adds another layer to the game's depth. Again, man. Seth and Viper have been constantly nerfed and remain tops. Seth was unexplored until Poongko brought him up. They've only gotten weaker over time and still dominate, Akuma has been nerfed and he still dominates. It's just a simple fact. Exactly. Characters like Evil Ryu do massive damage, more than anybody in the cast, has 2 fireballs and a shoryuken, with good ultras. Yet he's lower tier simply because he doesn't have the options to get in and out like he wants and keep the opponent guessing, like Akuma. Because some characters have harder to execute vortexes or have a harder time getting characters on the ground. Vortex characters aren't bottom tier though. Well in past games positioning and setting up a vortex took more work because there were less braindead mechanics, and it was also easier to mix and mash your defense and offense with more tools. Capcom vs SNK2 for example had parrying, just defense, counter attack, counter movement, rolling, dodging, safe fall, tactical recovery. On the other hand you have a guard meter to keep down on over guarding, and things like A groove which blew right through it. They're fine with enough tools to deal with them and not screw the rest of the cast who don't have the same tools and have to play the game differently. And by the way wasn't bitching about anything. Frisky was talking about how SF was "tactical chess" since you couldn't jut get in and do whatever you want. I pointed out those characters because they can do just that. Never said you couldn't deal with, you just seem very butthurt about dealin with it. It's part of the game. Put the stick down and walk away if this glorious set of mind games is a flaw to you. No, not at all. And stop with the "you seem". I was making a point. Just like I've made points about other games. You're using the same tired argument they use. Pointing out these facts does not make it a pain to deal with (annoying at times) but nothing more than that. I don't get caught in them much myself, but I've seen many games where they dominate. It's no different than pointing out flaws in SFxTekken, it's still there. And by the way, coming from someone who constantly bitches about Capcom on everything because of a Darkstalkers fascination, this seems hypocritical. And finally. Glorious set of mind games? Knock the opponent down and hop over them like a retard? Lol. Wouldn't call it glorious to what you could do in the past. I'm talkin about numbers 2 and 3 at EVO. If your not even placin top 16, hell if you're not even tryin to compete, yur opinion on the characters is a bit above meaningless. These are the best players in the world usin all the shit you hate and still can't win. Proof is in the puddin dawg, some random nobody on SRK aint tellin me shit about these characters and how "overpowered" they are. Uryo pwned Diago with C. Viper. Poongko has rocked with Seth, not winning a match doesn't mean the characters don't have those traits. And by the way, that whole "If you don't play at a tournament you can't play the game or don't know what you're talking about" is bullshit, and sounds like something a nobody at SRK would say to gain approval. I've met numerous people in numerous games competitve and not. Card games, body building, Twisted Metal, Smash, Street Fighter, Killer Instinct. Some are better than others on either side of the fence. I'm sorry I just hate elitism. I host tournaments myself in certain games. I do it to up my game along with everyone else and have fun. Yes the best of the best play, but I always come across new talent who is better than some of those who *do* compete. Some people just like competing more than others. What skilled players you can beat is what really matters. Not PP, BP, or numbers on a screen. Facts are facts, frame data is frame data, a person pointing out homing machine guns or Cinder being broken in Killer Instinct wouldn't be wrong if he were a noob or the best player in the world. I see where you're coming from in terms of "people knowing what they're talking about" as I hate when ignorant people try to lecture on something, but the point still stands. I'd take a "pro's" advice on how to learn new stuff at a game I haven't played, but if they tell me that a glitch in a game isn't there when it is, they'd still be wrong. The in game command list? For every Shinku? Prove this. And allowin you too just do it without havin 1 second pause between the 1st qfc? Prove this as well. I'm talking about 2x qcf having a diagonal command in them. Most of the commands end in diagonal fwd and not double qcf. It was funny because I didn't even notice this until later years when I was playing the game, just the developers intent. Reread what I told you, I said SFIV has much worse input leniency and shortcuts than the games of old, even Frisky said that. You made it seem like the older games had none of this, and that's utter bs. Never said that, I said it was there. As a matter of fact, to do paint the fence you only have to do one dp, and then you can qcf the rest, just like shosho. I said the input leniency was worse, and that it was also inconvenient as other moves can come out on accident. Now that we've cleared this up we can move on. Stop telling me what you think I know I implied or whatever. Those games are more balanced than everything else Capcom has ever made in the past, except Vampire Savior (and that was prolly a freak accident). Older Capcom games are notorious for horrible balance gaps. That's because they've had numerous times to get it right. AE was bad and Vanilla wasn't balanced that much either. 2012 and Super were better balanced though, so what? Give Capcom vs SNK 2 or SF3 multiple times to get it right and they could. Not sure if the fans would go for it though. The mechanics in SF4 are still worse, even if the game is more balanced. I like a balanced game too, but I like good mechanics. Besides didn't Ono say he LIKED unbalanced games? Yea.... And no. Street Fighter 1 will be the ONLY perfectly balanced game from Capcom and maybe ever. So you're wrong again. I think I'm one of the very small percentage of people who started with SF1 instead of 2. Remember putting coins into that arcade machines with my bro, mashing away. Could never beat that second guy though (I think he was a ninja). I beat the game recently though on my PSP. Seth has been nerfed with Viper and Akuma and remain top tier. Seth didn't get picked up until later, same with Viper. Akuma was always good. That's a simple fact. Only certain characters excel on untechable knockdowns. And untechable knock downs are great! Adds more offensive pressure and more to think about. So yeah, that theory is out the window. But I've went thru this with you before. Nothing wrong with untechable knockdowns themselves. It's just certain characters don't seem to play in the same game with the others and the game engine, and the lack of tech you have to deal with it. Stop putting words in my mouth. Untechable knockdown is what this game revolves around. The ones who can get you down on the ground and surpass footsies at will are higher tier than the ones who can't for a reason. Don't get me wrong, their trickery helps like hell, it's part of their design, but their guessing games isn't what finally got'em to top tier. See above. They've always been mid teir, 'til now. Seth had almost 20 less than 5.0 match ups, C+ tier in a game where tiers went up to all the way up to S. Viper had 10, less than 5 match ups, B- tier. This is just from the last game. Not even gonna argue with you about SFIV's new top tier. Yur not gonna listen See above. Seth lost his jumping hp along with many other tools and he still is top tier, he didn't get picked up on until later. Viper and Akuma have been nerfed and are still top tier. That's fine, but I'm just pointing out the truth. Don't act like it isn't there. lol You know it's all love, dawg. I have to love the crazy people too. |
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Post by Coolest thing Alive on Apr 14, 2012 17:33:58 GMT -5
Never said "seemed". Never said you "hated" anything but Seth and Viper's guess work. You said a bunch of stuff in the beginnin, I said you were wrong and then yo dialed it back a bit, basically sayin', "I didn't mean it like that". Please, you came in the convo because I was arguing with your twin. I simply said it was EASIER to mash out reversals because it was more lenient. Yes you could mash in the older games, but it was harder to do so as you had to have better reaction times. Now that I've made that clear yet again, could you please stop skewing what I say? Not saying you're doing it intentionally, but it's there. lmbao. Now U mad! You said you "COULD NOT" mash out DPs when yur gettin beasted on in older games. You said that. I called you out on it. And now were here... I just think you're full of shit, lol. It's ultimately subjective, but you'd be on your own if you think they ALL play the same. Marvel vs Capcom never played like Street Fighter to begin with. Now you're being ridiculous and just want to argue. Don't tell me trash like this: Plays like this: The jumping mechanics, rolling mechanics, AA, and game plays TOTALLY different. Even screen size makes things different. The games don't play the same by a long shot. Lol, I never said they all played the same. I said they all suffer from 3/4 of the shit U mad about, not to the same degree but pretty damn close. That is the nature of Capcom's fightin games. All of Capcom's fighters before 95, were the pedigree of lack of input leniency, lack of shortcuts (had them, but very few), strict execution, and etc... Every Capcom fighter after those games became more casual friendly with each iteration. That is a fact. Still meaning it's easier to mash out though. A casual person playing THIS game, who will no doubt be worse than a gamer 10 years ago, will not have the reaction time to mash out with a reversal and succeed due to the stricter timing. It's just a simple fact. Yes you could mash, but if you weren't very careful it would be unsuccessful. A noob playing SFIV would never be successful at mashing reversals in the other games. Omfg, C-phuckin-Master, my friend! Are you really serious with me, right now bro? The shorter reversal window MADE YOU MASH HARDER AND FASTER, THEIR WAS "NO TIMING" INVOLVED (not even the best players in the world bothered to learn the timin, they just mashed. there are top lvl players writin whole articles on this very aspect). THE REVERSAL WINDOWS BEING 3 FRAMES LONGER IN SFIV ENCOURAGED TIMING OVER MASHING. DOESN'T MATTER HOW LONG THE WINDOW IS, WHEN YOU MASH AN INVINCIBLE, YOU WILL ESCAPE AT THE SAME RATE.After this, I'm not addressin this issue anymore. lol Yea, I know I'm sure. The whole thing evolved because you keep telling me what you "think" I said or what you "feel I'm implying", when almost everything I said was a statistical fact in the first place. Your side kept arguing that I hated SFIV, I don't. YOUR side kept arguing that I was bashing the living shit out of it, I didn't, I was going over some things like a fine tooth comb. *Your* side kept arguing I was butthurt, hardly, I can play the game just fine and I even like playing with Viper and Seth, but the point still remains. Your side was trying to imply I didn't know what I was talking about, when I was in fact *right*. -I never said that. -You did and until it was brought to you, you wouldn't have admitted that the older games had similar problems. -U R mad over this, and that in no way implies that you can't play the game. -I think you know what yur talkin about, I just think you wanna argueon what the games should be and wont admit to a lot of the older Capcom games sharin in much of the shit that makes SFIV so scrubby. SFIV is far worse, but not for most the reasons you said. Note- The reasons you gave are why SFIV is scrubby, but not why it is WAY worse than the games before it, in the casual entry departmen. You can look at my posts on Duke Nukem or Twisted Metal, games I love very much and I point out flaws in those games all the same. So you're full of shit if you think I don't. You know where I can't point out flaws in a game? Around hardcore fanboys or apologists. If I go to the Twisted Metal site and I mention how automatic homing missiles hurt the metagame, they'd just tell me I was butthurt and need to learn to "deal with it". Even though I'm one of the best players around. 100% rank, and I can play with the best of the best and beat them. Hell I even host high level tournaments/matches for Twisted Metal and made a thread here: lol So that's how you gonna do me, bro? You rail on SFIV in this thread and tout around the older Capcom fighters like livin gods, in the past. If no one said anything, you would've continued to do so. I wasn't even defendin SFIV or anything. You can look back and check yurself, that was all Frisky. You just said alotta shit (that is in fact a problem with the game) about SFIV that applied to much of the older Capcom games. I pointed that fact out and U got mad. That's all their is to it. You can check my gamertag and PSN ID. I haven't played a Capcom fighter in months, you can check the old SFIV KMC thread and read me complain about how phucked up SFIV is. I'm not takin SFIV's side, just sayin, if you gonna shit on SFIV, shit on the other games for the same reason. Longer reversal windows give people a longer time to retaliate and rewards defensive play, shorter reversal windows ala KOF means less time to retaliate and it rewards offense. The longer window, slower game speed, shortcuts, and input leniency was put in there to help newer players cope, and ALL of those things encourage more mashing! ABC. 1+1=2. Doesn't get any clearer than that. You didn't originally say that, you said the longer reversal windows, purdy much, encouraged more mashing, which is a phuckin-oxymoron lol. Rather or not the longer reversal windows are rewardin defensive or offensive styles is an opinion. Again, man. Seth and Viper have been constantly nerfed and remain tops. Seth was unexplored until Poongko brought him up. They've only gotten weaker over time and still dominate, Akuma has been nerfed and he still dominates. It's just a simple fact. Akuma has always been mid to high tier. Seth and Viper have always been mid tier to lower mid tier, since OG SFIV. Seth and Viper have been nerfed and buffed and still stayed in their tiers. All it takes is a look at a few phuckin tier lists. I mean, all you have to do is google'em. Exactly. Characters like Evil Ryu do massive damage, more than anybody in the cast, has 2 fireballs and a shoryuken, with good ultras. Yet he's lower tier simply because he doesn't have the options to get in and out like he wants and keep the opponent guessing, like Akuma. The tiers are highly compressed in AE.2012, you can still kick hella ass with Evil Ryu, he does more damage than Akuma and combos easier into his ultras, than Akuma. Akuma was upper midteir in OG AE These are the buffs that put him into top tier... • Forward Throw - Increased Akuma's total frame count on a hit by 2F.
• Ultra 2 - Demon Armageddon - Changed hit damage when canceling out of Ashura Senku from 400 to 421.
• Demon Flip Punch (Hyakki Gosho) - Changed from an overhead attack to a mid attack.
• Far Standing Hard Kick - Changed damage from 60 + 40 (100 total) to 50 + 30 (80 total). Shortened block stun by 2F on second block, giving the attacker a -2F (dis)advantage when blocked.
• EX Demon Flip - Made EX Air Fireball cancelable from immediately after start of move.
Even in 3S, he's had the guess work style. He needs it, his health is low as shit, he can't afford to be hit alot. Note- And I'm not sayin E.Ryu doesn't need to be buffed, he does, cuz he kinda sucks. My point is that playin E.Ryu is not like playin Q in 3S. Because some characters have harder to execute vortexes or have a harder time getting characters on the ground. Vortex characters aren't bottom tier though. My only point is, Seth and Viper had nigh-universal vortexes before they were top tier. Well in past games positioning and setting up a vortex took more work because there were less braindead mechanics, and it was also easier to mix and mash your defense and offense with more tools. Capcom vs SNK2 for example had parrying, just defense, counter attack, counter movement, rolling, dodging, safe fall, tactical recovery. On the other hand you have a guard meter to keep down on over guarding, and things like A groove which blew right through it. That's CVS2 and SFIII, what about all the other games that didn't have strong defensive implementations in their fighting systems? Games like Vampire, SFII, SF Alpha, Marvel VS Capcom, how is it easier in these games to deal with vortexes than it is now? They're fine with enough tools to deal with them and not screw the rest of the cast who don't have the same tools and have to play the game differently. characters, to be honest, can't name any that can't escape vortexes. All you gotta do is go into trainin mode and set the CPU and test yur options. Will it always be easy? No. When you get it down, will it be crazy hard? No. Those characters that force you into guessin games have low health, if you know your options, you've basically won. And by the way wasn't bitching about anything. Frisky was talking about how SF was "tactical chess" since you couldn't jut get in and do whatever you want. I pointed out those characters because they can do just that. They can't, they have to play guessin games or they will loose. You can't tell me that Seth, Viper, or Akuma would stand a chance if they didn't have incredible mix ups. No, not at all. And stop with the "you seem". I was making a point. Just like I've made points about other games. You're using the same tired argument they use. Pointing out these facts does not make it a pain to deal with (annoying at times) but nothing more than that. I don't get caught in them much myself, but I've seen many games where they dominate. You wouldn't be this mad and over exaggerating their importance if it didn't bother you to deal with it. Doesn't make sense. It's no different than pointing out flaws in SFxTekken, it's still there. And by the way, coming from someone who constantly bitches about Capcom on everything because of a Darkstalkers fascination, this seems hypocritical. You point out the flaws of fighters you like less and say zero about the same flaws in the fighters you like more, until you're addressed about it. And finally. Glorious set of mind games? Knock the opponent down and hop over them like a retard? Lol. Wouldn't call it glorious to what you could do in the past. Clearly your opinion lol. Nothin wrong with that. Uryo pwned Diago with C. Viper. Poongko has rocked with Seth, not winning a match doesn't mean the characters don't have those traits. And by the way, that whole "If you don't play at a tournament you can't play the game or don't know what you're talking about" is bullshit, and sounds like something a nobody at SRK would say to gain approval. I've met numerous people in numerous games competitve and not. Card games, body building, Twisted Metal, Smash, Street Fighter, Killer Instinct. Some are better than others on either side of the fence. I'm sorry I just hate elitism. Lol. Latif's (number 2) C.Viper and Poongko's (number 3) Seth lost a whole set in a row to lose the grand and semi finals in the biggest fighters tourney on planet Earth. Obviously, the guess work, even at the highest lvls, is not enough to beat Fei Long. Nothin you said disproves my point. And I'd listen to MJ about the game of basketball over the nigga from around the corner, who plays at the men's club. I'd be stupid not to. Niggaz at SRK bash pros and say stupid shit all the time. If you can't beat'em, you have nothin to say about the shit they do or how they play their characters, it's as simple as that. It's not "elitism", it's common sense. I'm talking about 2x qcf having a diagonal command in them. Most of the commands end in diagonal fwd and not double qcf. It was funny because I didn't even notice this until later years when I was playing the game, just the developers intent. Don't see the all the Shinku's endin in fwd on the official command list, dawg. ps2.ign.com/articles/097/097450p1.htmlIt's a shortcut and not even the only one. Never said that, I said it was there. As a matter of fact, to do paint the fence you only have to do one dp, and then you can qcf the rest, just like shosho. See, no disrespect, but this is when I start loosin the will to argue on. When things start seemin disingenuous. 1. In the beginnin, in so many words, you made the very idea of input leniency and shortcuts sound terrible. 2. You only admitted to older games havin the shortcuts after it was brought to you. I'm not sayin you didn't know, you just weren't gonna talk about it. From yur very own words, a person readin this thread, and didn't know older Capcom games, would have sworn SFIV was the only Capcom fighter to have shortcuts. 3. When it was brought to you that older Capcom fighters had these shortcuts, then you, pretty much said, "well there are lvls on what type of shortcuts you can have". Same case with the mashin in reversal windows. Not sayin you doin this intentionally but it's a lil disheartenin commin from you. I said the input leniency was worse, and that it was also inconvenient as other moves can come out on accident. I agree and you know I agree with that. SFIV is the worst of it's kind in this respect. And it is a very serious problem. That's because they've had numerous times to get it right. AE was bad and Vanilla wasn't balanced that much either. 2012 and Super were better balanced though, so what? Give Capcom vs SNK 2 or SF3 multiple times to get it right and they could. Not sure if the fans would go for it though. The mechanics in SF4 are still worse, even if the game is more balanced. I like a balanced game too, but I like good mechanics. Besides didn't Ono say he LIKED unbalanced games? That does not matter and is not point. And no. Street Fighter 1 will be the ONLY perfectly balanced game from Capcom and maybe ever. So you're wrong again. I think I'm one of the very small percentage of people who started with SF1 instead of 2. Remember putting coins into that arcade machines with my bro, mashing away. Could never beat that second guy though (I think he was a ninja). I beat the game recently though on my PSP. Lol forgot about SF1. I wasn't even alive when that game came out, so sue me. Nothing wrong with untechable knockdowns themselves. It's just certain characters don't seem to play in the same game with the others and the game engine, and the lack of tech you have to deal with it. Stop putting words in my mouth. Untechable knockdown is what this game revolves around. The ones who can get you down on the ground and surpass footsies at will are higher tier than the ones who can't for a reason. See above. See above. Seth lost his jumping hp along with many other tools and he still is top tier, he didn't get picked up on until later. Viper and Akuma have been nerfed and are still top tier. That's fine, but I'm just pointing out the truth. Don't act like it isn't there. Wrong, not gonna repeat myself about why you are factually incorrect about this anymore. |
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The Big Daddy C-Master
Big Daddy
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Post by The Big Daddy C-Master on Apr 14, 2012 18:35:49 GMT -5
First things first... if you legitimately feel I was being sneaky or trying to *trick* or lie to you about something, then I apologize, but I can sincerely say that wasn't my intent. Maybe you're just reading into me more than I'm thinking about my posts. If you still feel I am trying to *trick* you or hide something, then I can't change your mind, but it wasn't what I was thinking when I made my posts lol. I have no need for that, if I was trolling you (am I  ) I would just let you know.... maybe I am.  Time to shorten this to relevancy because it's really the same thing over and over again. #1. I need for you to prove to me where I am touting the older school fighters out to be gods for pointing out the difference between the two? Never was. And everything I said was spot on. Your idea on the "scrubbiness" vs mine is purely subjective, but the mechanics aren't. I already said SFIV is a very good game and above a 9, just more watered down than the other games. Your inner need to argue or inner SF fan kicked in or something. I just think you are arguing because I argued with your buddy. I knew you'd come in next. You guys made a bigger deal about input shortcuts than I ever did. I brought up the reversal windows the most because it was being argued about. Yes every game has reversal windows, so why would I need to say that? I *never* said there were no input shortcuts, the ones that were there were very mild at best and didn't make a large difference. There was also things like super jump cancel. You're making it seem like I was denying this. I even mentioned negative edge, things like that should be a given. If I bring up throw range, it doesn't mean that the other games didn't have throw range, it would mean that this game has a LARGER throw range, not that the others didn't exist (if I were to bring that point up, which I wasn't). If I say the game play slow, it doesn't mean the OTHER games didn't play slow it means that this one plays slower. It's basic logic man. And input leniency? Every game has that. I shouldn't have to explain that this game has ridiculous input leniency should I? That's just basic mechanics. I wasn't writing this for a novice in SF, I was writing it for fighting game veterans. I also like how you agreed with atdsum's post 100% including the part when he said Viper was brain-dead, but I bring up some of the advantages she has and you worship it? YOU'RE the one worshiping the game, not me. I'm not worshiping the old games, they had their flaws too, but it wasn't what I described, they were other things (balance, exploits, etc.) I and many other people can note the difference. I have to play the classics on a regular basis because if I don't, my execution doesn't feel the same because of how lenient the game is. The leniency and restrictions you're talking about were minor and were used more for large combos, or unique exploits. I also see input shortcuts as things that make inputting commands easier, even if they aren't really a "shortcut". #2. You're mad than me I can tell it in you and Frisky's tone. Pointing out legit flaws isn't being "mad". Lol. I don't get mad at video games, and if you didn't know that then you don't know me. I'm playing as Viper now and I just told you that. Instant burn kick ftw. I like high execution stuff if you didn't notice. #3. Yes you can win with Evil Ryu, but it is an uphill battle for him. He was ranked 4th worse, but I don't think that's true. He's not great though. Slow footsies, Lack of tools, uncharged U1 does lousy damage, U2 can be chained in but it's harder to do for full animation. His Ultras ARE better, but Akuma doesn't need ultras. He has everything Evil Ryu has plus an air fireball, better teleport, better sweep, better footsies, great standing HK, fastest walk speed in the game, need I go on? #4. Of course I'd listen to MJ on how to play ball, but if MJ said that a 3 point shot was closer to the goal than a 2 point shot, he'd still be wrong, MJ or no. SRK dickrides pros and is a very elitist place, lol. So can you prove where I touted them like gods and said mashing is impossible in older games? I don't know why I would say that because when I was a kid I mashed myself and got lucky. I just said it was less likely to work. Do that for me sweet thang. I'm not wasting an hour quoting that mess again. Waste of time and it's just a pissing contest now. Nothing wrong with that. By the way. You are either mistaken or truly lying if you're saying I never pointed out the other games had shortcuts. I simply said they were not to the degree they are now. People who don't play SF wouldn't know the difference and wouldn't care. You are just imagining all of these things I said didn't exist in older games. I just simply said they were watered down. Aside from invincible backdashes and Ultras, the rest was there (to a much smaller extent). Seth was nerfed in the future games though once people saw his potential. Tier listings change all of the time and you know it as well as I do. Magneto wasn't considered top tier until people found out his exploits later in MVC2. And you're wrong about Akuma, he WAS nerfed and IS top tier. His biggest nerf was the palm being put as a mid attack instead of an overhead which hurt his game since you could low block his demon flip without having to guess as much. Man, if you didn't know that.... And in 3s Akuma wasn't nearly as good because the cast had the tools to deal with his shenanigans. His teleport was ass, his footsies and sweep weren't that good, and this game is about untechable knockdown and mixups. 3s isn't quite the same. In SF2T Akuma was god because his opponents didn't have the tool to deal with his air fireball because it was something new. You know better than this. And dammit this post is long again. |
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The Big Daddy C-Master
Big Daddy
Living life to the fullest, and it feels great.
I'm still here... for now...
Posts: 26,387
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Post by The Big Daddy C-Master on Apr 14, 2012 19:40:57 GMT -5
I think that something else needs to be added to the mashing argument.
The shorter blockstun. In this game blockstun is shorter which rewards defensive play and enables much easier reversals that weren't allowed before.
Some other critiques.
-Slow walk and jump speed compared to the other games. Particularly walking.
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Post by Coolest thing Alive on Apr 15, 2012 17:38:11 GMT -5
I need for you to prove to me where I am touting the older school fighters out to be gods for pointing out the difference between the two? Out of all of our discussions, never heard you complain about the scrub fever in Capcom fighters, 'til SFIV. Your inner need to argue or inner SF fan kicked in or something. U Mad. I just sat up here and said nearly every SF game is scrubbier than it's comp. lol I just think you are arguing because I argued with your buddy. I knew you'd come in next. U Mad, again. lol I brought up the reversal windows the most because it was being argued about. Don't care 'bout you and Frisk, that was one of the two and only 2 things I was/am discussin (tryin to discuss with you). Reversal windows, that is. You took all yur rage on Frisky, out on me. Good work Yes every game has reversal windows, so why would I need to say that? You said the longer RWs (Reversal Window) encouraged mashin more than ever. That is backwards (wrong). I *never* said there were no input shortcuts, the ones that were there were very mild at best and didn't make a large difference. There was also things like super jump cancel. You're making it seem like I was denying this. I even mentioned negative edge, things like that should be a given. If I bring up throw range, it doesn't mean that the other games didn't have throw range, it would mean that this game has a LARGER throw range, not that the others didn't exist (if I were to bring that point up, which I wasn't). If I say the game play slow, it doesn't mean the OTHER games didn't play slow it means that this one plays slower. It's basic logic man. And input leniency? Every game has that. I shouldn't have to explain that this game has ridiculous input leniency should I? That's just basic mechanics. I wasn't writing this for a novice in SF, I was writing it for fighting game veterans. You made SCs (shortcuts) and input leniency sound terrible, period. You later admitted that these were in older games, after it was brought to you. When it was, you then said there were certain lvls to how bad these things were (i agree). But the way that this went down, just seems dishonest. You made the older Capcom games into Guilty Gears and try to make SFIV sound like Smash. I checked you on it And I agreed with you 100% on how bad SFIV's SC's and input leniency are compared to the older games. . .but Frisk has left you traumatized and you still think yur arguin with him. But that's okay, keep goin. I also like how you agreed with atdsum's post 100% including the part when he said Viper was brain-dead. Clearly, "100%" is an over exaggeration on my behalf. But I also have to repeat myself to him, even if I already said it to you? Okay but I bring up some of the advantages she has and you worship it? YOU'RE the one worshiping the game, not me. I'm not worshiping the old games, they had their flaws too, but it wasn't what I described, they were other things (balance, exploits, etc.) Clearly, "worship" is an over exaggeration on my behalf. Pains me to see you take it so personal. The leniency and restrictions you're talking about were minor and were used more for large combos, or unique exploits. ? Yeah, if all you played were Capcom's fighters that weren't SF I, II, and Darkstalkers 1. However, I still agree that even Alpha, Hunter, Savior, CVS, MVC, and SFIII don't hold a candle to the mess in SFIV. But don't let me stop you; continue like I hadn't said I agreed with you, for leik the 10th time. I also see input shortcuts as things that make inputting commands easier. So do I. But not to the point where it get's in the way. Like Bison doin his teleport instead of his U1, in SFIV. You're mad than me I can tell it in you and Frisky's tone. Pointing out legit flaws isn't being "mad". My "tone" went from cool to "flabergasted", that's about it. However, all the lil sneaky personal shots you been chuckin. . .U Mad. Nothin wrong with that, you can take all the shots you want. Just pointin'em out. Yes you can win with Evil Ryu, but it is an uphill battle for him. He was ranked 4th worse, but I don't think that's true. He's not great though. Slow footsies, Lack of tools, uncharged U1 does lousy damage, U2 can be chained in but it's harder to do for full animation. His Ultras ARE better, but Akuma doesn't need ultras. He has everything Evil Ryu has plus an air fireball, better teleport, better sweep, better footsies, great standing HK, fastest walk speed in the game, need I go on? Yea, let's ignore me sayin Evil Ryu "kinda sucked" at the end. lol Of course I'd listen to MJ on how to play ball, but if MJ said that a 3 point shot was closer to the goal than a 2 point shot, he'd still be wrong, MJ or no. But that isn't the same type of case we're (I) was discussin. lmbao More like SRK hates on the pros. 'Course I'm not speakin on the staff. So can you prove where I touted them like gods and said mashing is impossible in older games? I don't know why I would say that because when I was a kid I mashed myself and got lucky. I just said it was less likely to work. Clearly, "touted like gods" is an over exaggeration on my behalf. Pains me to see you take it so personal. Still, the gist of my point in that statement stands, and can be viewed in posts above. Examples of where you said there was no mashing? Here'ya go... "I'd say that KOF is the best this gen for the reasons you mentioned. Execution heavy, fast paced, and not mashing. You just had to be quicker to react.""I doubt there's much mashing in high level KOF play"Mash many EXs in RWs to get escape offensive onslaughts. Works just as well as in SFIV, or any SF for that matter...if you mash hard enough. lol "The thing is, a person was not mashing through offensive intelligent blockstrings[/quote] True...if it was 3S. Parryin and all... "but a noob gamer wasn't mashing out dp's right through jabs."Mashin is just as effective as it is now, in RWs. By the way. You are either mistaken or truly lying if you're saying I never pointed out the other games had shortcuts. I simply said they were not to the degree they are now. People who don't play SF wouldn't know the difference and wouldn't care. You are just imagining all of these things I said didn't exist in older games. I just simply said they were watered down. Aside from invincible backdashes and Ultras, the rest was there (to a much smaller extent). You did point out that other games had SCs, you just didn't do it until you were confronted with that fact. Again, that's not cool. *smh* Seth was nerfed in the future games though once people saw his potential. He was decent (midtier), then they nerfed'im in Super. Made peeps mad cuz he wasn't high tier to begin with. They buffed'im in every game after super. Wasn't top tier 'til AE V.2012. Read the final tier lists for each game. If you don't believe that actual tier lists, then we don't have much more to discuss. And you're wrong about Akuma, he WAS nerfed and IS top tier. His biggest nerf was the palm being put as a mid attack instead of an overhead which hurt his game since you could low block his demon flip without having to guess as much. Akuma was never bad, but he was never top tier, except in OG Super, where they did nerf a few things of his, but buffed'im in other places, don't remember. And bravo, you pointed out one nerf in a super series of buffs. And in 3s Akuma wasn't nearly as good because the cast had the tools to deal with his shenanigans. His teleport was ass, his footsies and sweep weren't that good You missed my entire point, which was, Akuma has always been about guess work. And what?! Akuma was A tier in 3S. 2 tiers below S tier. |
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Post by Coolest thing Alive on Apr 15, 2012 17:49:39 GMT -5
I think that something else needs to be added to the mashing argument. The shorter blockstun. In this game blockstun is shorter which rewards defensive play and enables much easier reversals that weren't allowed before. I've heard pros actually say something to the affect of rewarding the offensive style of play. I don't think it rewards anything. That's just how the game is, imo. Slow walk and jump speed compared to the other games. Particularly walking. I agree, but again, I don't see it as a bad thing, that's just how the game is. Altho, some characters, (have not played 2012) had dashes that were way to fast for the game. *cough* Makoto & Chun li *cough* |
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The Big Daddy C-Master
Big Daddy
Living life to the fullest, and it feels great.
I'm still here... for now...
Posts: 26,387
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Post by The Big Daddy C-Master on Apr 15, 2012 17:51:27 GMT -5
Well like I said, I'm not going to have this silly argument over what I "intended to say" or "whether I'm mad" or whatever because it's silly. I know I'm not and whether you agree or not is a waste of time. Now let's get some actual good constructive discussion going on that isn't 2 posts a day of pissing contest nonsense. I think you just like to argue, but whatever. Again I don't think SF4 is a scrubfest, it is watered down though. We agree on that so let's drop that point. Second point. Long reversal windows, generous leniency and shortcuts, and the short blockstun favors defensive play and makes it easier to mash. Don't see how you can think any other way. It's pretty much a fact. Some pros say some things, other pros say other things. Slower walk speed and movement speed is definitely more defensive play oriented. Don't see how you can think otherwise. You haven't heard me say a lot about Capcom fighters, because I don't post much on them at KMC in detail (which is where a lot of that took place). Marvel vs Capcom is scrubby but gets better at high level. SF3 is overrated I agree, but the parrying did save it. |
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) I would just let you know.... maybe I am. 