Typical Ignorance in the FGC.

[The Big Daddy C-Master]

Somebody was talking about other fighting games to play besides SF4 since people are discussing the new version and other problems with the game and whatnot. Someone (of course a SF4 fanboy) equates the amount of people playing to quality. Which is something these people love to do. "It's popular therefore it's good."


Have a read.

Maybe those other games don't have player bases because they suck?

Maybe "they suck" is a hard way of putting it because it sounds silly to me to talk about Sf4 as tho it failed somewhere, and it makes me defensive, but there's some truth. They suck.

Want players? Get the "good games" to make a better/more accessible product. Make sure I can play against my friends who live less than 10 miles from me without leaving my house. Maybe don't make it so I have to do wrist gymnastics to throw a fucking fireball or do a 3 hit combo. Mix in a good tutorial if your game has 700 sub systems and movement options.

Street Fighter is popular because its simple. Look at fucking Smash

Sf2 was better, Sf3 was better, blah, blah, blah. Who gives a shit? Really, the only reason Sf3 wasn't as popular is because arcades died for like 95% of America when it was out, and the online gaming and social networking hadn't taken off yet. No local scene= dead Sf3 for the 95% of America with dead arcades.

When this shit came out, all I can remember is people saying it wouldn't be around for long. It'll die. We will be back to 3s in a few months. And this stigma continues 5 years in. Fuckers always get nostalgic. Fact is people complained about Sf2.

"What the fuck bro. If you throw me again, I'll blow this bitch up!".

And they would have complained about whatever old ass games that came in between 96'-09', but if a tree falls in the forest.......

As far as other scenes go....You guys are fucking married to them shits.

You don't have online so you travel by foot/bus/car/donkey's back, with a map in hand-to play. You grinded a billion hours in training mode to get your wrist game good enough to do at least the very basic moves/combos. And you learned all 700 sub systems. No fucking way you talk bad about something you've worked that hard to play. It's your baby boo-boo at this point.

People complain now. But you'll be here in a year. You'll be here till the next true numbered SF comes out. Fucking hipsters. And if you don't, and somehow truly get fed up, someone will just replace you. And when that next game comes, we will bitch about that one, and gather by the camp fire to talk about the good old days of SF4

Seriously?

[JACK-2]

It's always been like that. Street Fighter EX is a bad game because it's obscure, Marvel is a good game because it's hype. I'm glad I never go to SRK. I remember when Dark Geese was promoting obscure SNK games and Master Chibi promoting obscure fighters, that was the last time that place was worth it.

[The Big Daddy C-Master]

Feb 4, 2014 19:12:09 GMT -5 JACK-2 said:

It's always been like that. Street Fighter EX is a bad game because it's obscure, Marvel is a good game because it's hype. I'm glad I never go to SRK. I remember when Dark Geese was promoting obscure SNK games and Master Chibi promoting obscure fighters, that was the last time that place was worth it.

I always thought Street Fighter EX was underrated. I enjoyed that game. Also I'm not sure if it's a Capcom thing or an SRK thing but when I look at any discussion that's related to a Capcom game I see nothing but fanboyism.

I mean I got to dreamcancel to read up on Kof, or to the Guilty Gear site, or to the Skullgirls site, or to the Virtua Fighter site and people are discussing mechanics like 99% of the time. Why is it that only on these Capcom sites (Eventhubs, SRK, Capcom Unity) that you have such a vehement level of arguing over "my character is better and harder so there".

Especially at SRK. It's ridiculous. Anybody who is making the argument that "more people means more quality" is just ignorant or a moron. You might as well say McDonald's has the highest quality food based on that.

[JACK-2]

Because Capcom games are mainstream. Those other sites attract people who actual play fighters, while capmcom sites attracts poseurs who want a piece of the fighting game bandwagon.

[The Big Daddy C-Master]

Feb 4, 2014 19:27:03 GMT -5 JACK-2 said:

Because Capcom games are mainstream. Those other sites attract people who actual play fighters, while capmcom sites attracts poseurs who want a piece of the fighting game bandwagon.

I agree. The largest most casual games get this kind of behavior. Even newer players at the other sites are on better behavior but I guess it's because the environment is better. SRK and these other sites just spread ignorance. You can tell by his post he's just a bandwagon jumper and he thinks it actually makes him better.

Nonsense.

[JACK-2]

That's why I stay away. I really dislike SRK, just like I dislike anime fans. I take my hobbies very seriously. So, I dislike poseurs messing stuff up.

[The Big Daddy C-Master]

Feb 4, 2014 19:59:38 GMT -5 JACK-2 said:

That's why I stay away. I really dislike SRK, just like I dislike anime fans. I take my hobbies very seriously. So, I dislike poseurs messing stuff up.

I've cut myself from many sites as well. The problem is many of these forums are the only reliable source of information for many games so it's hard to cut everything off. That said I damn sure don't post there. I was just reading lol.

I'm LOL'ing since you automatically knew it was from SRK. Good deduction.

[JACK-2]

Feb 4, 2014 20:03:46 GMT -5 The Big Daddy C-Master said:

I'm LOL'ing since you automatically knew it was from SRK. Good deduction.

I can smell 09ers a mile away.

[The Big Daddy C-Master]

Feb 5, 2014 4:20:38 GMT -5 JACK-2 said:

Feb 4, 2014 20:03:46 GMT -5 The Big Daddy C-Master said:

I'm LOL'ing since you automatically knew it was from SRK. Good deduction.

I can smell 09ers a mile away.

Guess where this one came from.

"Oh and can we please stop talking about all those poverty games? Seriously, nobody gives a shit about KoF (in the civilized parts of the world at least) and cheesy anime fighters"

I'll give you 3 guesses and the first 2 don't count?

[JACK-2]

Capcom unity.

[The Big Daddy C-Master]

Feb 5, 2014 4:36:58 GMT -5 JACK-2 said:

Capcom unity.

Nope, same site lol. Capcom Unity is less offensive than SRK. In fact the most offensive time seemed to be when they were asking for balance changes and the Akuma fanboys came over. Those fanboys almost destroyed a lot of love I had for the character in gameplay. It's a shame he's such a scrub magnet (although it was kind of part of his design).

[JACK-2]

I didn't think it was possible for srk to get this bad. Glad I left. Hopefully, when I get better in Japanese I can go to japanese discussions and share info with you. Because no one should have to suffer that infernal hell hole.

[The Big Daddy C-Master]

Feb 5, 2014 4:55:13 GMT -5 JACK-2 said:

I didn't think it was possible for srk to get this bad. Glad I left. Hopefully, when I get better in Japanese I can go to japanese discussions and share info with you. Because no one should have to suffer that infernal hell hole.

Here's another:

"For a game with so called 36 legit characters and that allows for trios, KoF has extremely repetitive top placing characters. Takuma/Mr. Karate, King, Kim, etc. In fact the top 8 in EVO used only 12 characters out of a possible 24.

To give you perspective, in the SF4 tournament, the top 8 used 9 different characters. the top 16 used 15 different characters and the top 24 used 20 different characters. That is just ridiculous, it means that half the cast made it to the top 24 in EVO. 27 characters made it to top 48.


So when it comes to viability, SF4 has a more viable cast than any game I've ever seen. And once again they are completely different characters with completely different uses for the game mechanics, as opposed to a universal game mechanic ( ahem those endless bars in KoF and their endless combos) that artificially balances the game."

The ignorance in this post is astounding.

[JACK-2]

This is the same bullshit argument they used against 3s. Kept complaining that only Chun-li, Ken or Yun was viable. Then Kuroda came and raped Justin Wongs Chun li with Q. This just seems to be something characteristic of the western FGC.

[The Big Daddy C-Master]

Feb 5, 2014 5:04:40 GMT -5 JACK-2 said:

This is the same bullshit argument they used against 3s. Kept complaining that only Chun-li, Ken or Yun was viable. Then Kuroda came and raped Justin Wongs Chun li with Q. This just seems to be something characteristic of the western FGC.

There were several things wrong with his post. First of all Kof xiii has 36 characters. Which shows he's never played it. Second Kofxiii is the most balanced 2d fighter this gen and arguably the most balanced 2d fighter around. Way more balanced than SF4. There are no "bad" characters. Yes some characters are better than others but the tiers are A+ to B+ which is very strong to excellent. You can pick anybody and win not only because every character has a purpose but because you have universal mechanics that allow every character to have several options.

He also tried to use the top 8 in Kof and the top 24 in SF. The top 16 in Kof has had pretty much everyone 2012 and 2013. You also have other high level Kof events besides Evo which 09'ers don't care about.

Mr. Kof, Reynald, and Woo all use random select on numerous occasions vs other top players and win all of the time. Random select. Seriously. Not only that Woo used Mai, who is widely considered to be one of the worst characters in the game and made it all the way up to the top until Reynald was counterpicking him and he switched out.

The "endless combos" which there are only a few which are very difficult aren't even necessary because any character can kill you anyways and it doesn't take long.

This guy was so ignorant it was baffling. The people who just whored top tiers didn't even make it to finals, Tokido included.

[JACK-2]

Yeah, there are games that have a huge mid tier that gives most people a chance. People need to learn the difference between a better character and a non-viable character. Just because character x is ranked higher than character y. Doesn't mean character y is not viable. But, then again this is the same forum that likes mvc2 where there really is a balance issue [most of the cast is not viable]

SRK is bias so much. It's like a cult.

[The Big Daddy C-Master]

Feb 5, 2014 5:14:16 GMT -5 JACK-2 said:

Yeah, there are games that have a huge mid tier that gives most people a chance. People need to learn the difference between a better character and a non-viable character. Just because character x is ranked higher than character y. Doesn't mean character y is not viable. But, then again this is the same forum that likes mvc2 where there really is a balance issue [most of the cast is not viable]

SRK is bias so much. It's like a cult.

Well it is Shoryuken forums. Just because it's the largest fighting game site doesn't mean it likes all of them equally. You'd expect smaller sites to be more cultish, but nope it's the largest one. I know some Smash players can get bad at times, but they've kept to themselves at least more nowadays. This SF4 is like the America of fighting games.

I prefer games to be more balanced than less, but I prefer a well made game more. ST, SF3, CvS2 aren't as balanced as SF4 but they play better. At least they had an excuse. Games nowadays have way more funding, way larger teams, way better technology, and even online patches to fix things cheaply. They also have youtube and things like that were knowledge of issues spread fast. Yet we're on our 5th version of this game and it is still very flawed. Why?

[JACK-2]

Feb 5, 2014 5:21:45 GMT -5 The Big Daddy C-Master said:

This SF4 is like the America of fighting games.

Hate to nitpick, but lol.

The funny thing is I'm alot "nicer" on the game then I was when it first came out. I even made a thread about it. But, the mouth foaming is insane. Jesus, this game makes srk even dumber [If that were possible]

[The Big Daddy C-Master]

Feb 5, 2014 5:28:43 GMT -5 JACK-2 said:

Feb 5, 2014 5:21:45 GMT -5 The Big Daddy C-Master said:

This SF4 is like the America of fighting games.

Hate to nitpick, but lol.

The funny thing is I'm alot "nicer" on the game then I was when it first came out. I even made a thread about it. But, the mouth foaming is insane. Jesus, this game makes srk even dumber [If that were possible]

Well my honest opinion is the game has a lot of potential but it is bogged down by bad design decisions designed to cater to the masses. The reason it's so frustrating is because I do want the game to be good, but they just won't let it be. It's baffling because Capcom has the resources and the fanbase, but they want to churn crap.

Here's a conversation here that shows what I mean:

"I swear my respect and appreciation for both Capcom and the SFIV series in general would jump ten-fold if they corrected the scrubtastic input/reversal system. Mashed reversals during pressure is one of the biggest downers I have with this game. Say what you want about baiting and all that crap (yes, its a completely valid response) but the reversal and input leniency in this game is just plain retarded irrespective of this.

My enjoyment takes a dive when I realise the person I am playing against is a stick churning retard. I feel like my focus gets diverted from "playing Street Fighter" to cutting a stack of play and attack options away because my opponent will flip a coin at random and pull out some input assisted nonsense reversal. Its a subject done to death I agree, but goddamn it stains the game for me.

Surely the input/reversal window was put on the table for discussion at Capcom. I'd be curious to know their arguments both for and against it."

The reply-

"Same argument that was made during the game's inception - it must be noob friendly. They will never remove this. If a game doesn't have casual appeal, it will die out of the mainstream, which means less chance of a profit-making follow-up or revision.

Ono spoke about this at length during one interview. When they created 3S, Capcom took it for granted that they'd make money. So the team had a lot of creative freedom. They created a great game, but it was a commercial failure in the sense that it didn't meet expectations from a business POV.

This is why they will never remove shortcuts from SFIV. Shortcuts and input leniency are here to stay. If they dropped the reversal window slightly and made the inputs stricter, casuals would actually have to learn the proper inputs and the timing. They don't want to do that. Not in this game, not in any game."

[JACK-2]

SF4 is exactly what I thought it would be. A posthumous game to a franchise that Capcom left behind. It will never be like SF3 which Capcom admitted was the ultimate SF. Even Alpha 3 is better.

[The Big Daddy C-Master]

Feb 5, 2014 5:39:17 GMT -5 JACK-2 said:

SF4 is exactly what I thought it would be. A posthumous game to a franchise that Capcom left behind. It will never be like SF3 which Capcom admitted was the ultimate SF. Even Alpha 3 is better.

They sure are spending a lot of money on this game they left behind. It doesn't have the feel of the older games and it feels like a cash in on the masses.

I always loved Alpha 3. SF3s was a business failure but Capcom loved it from a creative standpoint. One thing I do like is the old SF games were all good but played differently.

Alpha had its style of play, 3s had its style of play, St had its style of play. SF4 doesn't really stand out. What does SF4 do so much different and better than these games? It feels like a hodge podge of old design that was executed with mediocrity.

[JACK-2]

Feb 5, 2014 5:52:33 GMT -5 The Big Daddy C-Master said:

It feels like a hodge podge of old design that was executed with mediocrity.

I've been saying this from the beginning. But, everyone insisted I was crazy.

[The Big Daddy C-Master]

Feb 5, 2014 6:04:02 GMT -5 JACK-2 said:

Feb 5, 2014 5:52:33 GMT -5 The Big Daddy C-Master said:

It feels like a hodge podge of old design that was executed with mediocrity.

I've been saying this from the beginning. But, everyone insisted I was crazy.

You are a little crazy, but it comes with genius.

[The Big Daddy C-Master]

I might just make this a quote thread. Here's some more.

"Exactly. I like SF4, I think it's good, but I'm not rushing to other forums to proclaim how this game is better than others, because I realize my arguments might not work for others. This is a pointless debate, afterall - what makes a game good ?

As for your question: let me reply with another one: Akuma being so powerful in ST is a good thing, ore a bad thing ? I'm pretty sure there are some people who likes playing him. In these type of cases, I think the most sensible solution is - what the majority thinks ? In Akuma's case, he was banned, because most considers him detrimential to overall gameplay.

There might be some objective ways of determining which is bad/good, but we are getting into heavy semanthics here...

- Comeback mechanics: No, Supers in ST are comeback mechanics, because they are a tool that helps you alleviate the life deficit, by doing big dmg in 1 hit.
And you are building meter in ST by whiffing specials, too. If I play Honda, I can whiff lp hands to build meter fast. O. Sagat vs Balrog is a match considered in Sagat's favour until Balrog has Super. the super helps him comeback into the match.
The funny thing about this debate is that when ST came with supers, some players complained about them exactly the same way some are complaining now about ultras.

- I won't comment much on FA vs parry since I'm not too familiar with 3S. But the fact remains that the idea behind FA was implemented before.

- Wait, so your issue with large RW is that when you drop your links you are getting punished ? this is a terrible argument. Don't drop your combos. If you make mistakes, you should pay for them. As simple as that."


Typical stupidity.



Here's a convo:

"I think one of the main points here is idiocy shouldn't be rewarded.

Mashing reversals like a moron shouldn't be rewarded. Fishing for a DP, that the opponent reads, and u simply FADC forward shouldn't be rewarded. Getting your ass beat shouldn't get you a massive reward you can use every round.

Stupid play should lead to terrible punishment not sweet rewards. This isn't about SF4 vs ST or 3s or SFXT or whatever other game, this is about taking the dumb shit out SF4 to make it the best game it can be. There is some subjectivity to what is considered 'dumb' however...

1. Hitboxes/hurtboxes are the most messed up I've ever seen in any fighting game. It's just an embarassment, that a lot of moves animation/look isn't close to what the actual hitbox is.

2. Wide reversal windows encourage dumb play. If I'm getting hit by an advanced player doing link combos, why not just mash ultra again and again and again, cause there is no consequence? Once the combo ends I'll stop mashing otherwise if the opponent drops his link I get to knock off 50% of his life off. Dumb, just dumb.

3. FADC on block I've gone over a million times, I think everyone is agreed on this (or most at least)

4. Focus is sloppily implemented, hurts zoning, and is another detriment to offense. Other than possibly extending combos it has no positive effect on the game, only negative. Talk to Dhalsim see what he thinks about focus attack.

5. Ultra meter is built upon being hit. I could be sitting there without touching my controller, and the ultra meter will build to full as my life gets low enough. Then I can mash it during your next combo and take half your life away! Does that sound like smart game design?

If everyone was more critical and honest and pointed out the flaws, then Ultra SFIV would turn out much better and most of this stuff would be removed or heavily modified. However if a lot of the fanbase just accepts it, why would Capcom waste resources and time to remove it?"

Then the response:

-"2. No. What is really dumb is people asking that they are not getting punished when they drop combos. This is one of the dumbest thing I've heard. If you make mistakes, you should be punished. Asking for not to get punished when you're missing your links is just...sigh.
And the only thing lowering RW would encourage, is brainless offensive. It won't make the game any smarter, on the contrary.

3. Yes, you've gone, and no, not everybody agrees with you. Actually many people consider the change to -5 on block being a mistake (and I can understand their reasons)

4. No, is not sloppily implemented, and no, it doesn't hurt offense. Yes, it hurts zoning, just like parry in 3S. It's a decision made by Capcom, in order to make zoning not too overwhelming, like it or not.

5. What do you care so much about how Ultra is build ? In 3S I'm staying in the corner and whiff normals, in ST I whiff specials, whatever. At the end of the day, you still need to make a smart read in order to land that ultra - unless you are getting hit by random ultras or you are dropping your combos.

You just made a list with things you don't like about SF4, and are trying to shove down to our throats as "bad things that should be removed"."

Simply unbelievable.

[JACK-2]

When did things get this bad? I remember people in srk being dumb, but now it's become insanely fanatical.

[The Big Daddy C-Master]

Since SF4. I don't have a problem with people liking a game, but don't defend blatantly stupid game design. If the game was so well designed, it wouldn't be on it's 5th iteration. People who do this just sound stupid and fanboyish.

People can't understand the difference between "I like" and "well made", which is why catering towards the least common denominator always works. They associate popularity with quality, when it's rarely the case.

Here's another:

"I think you're lying to yourself if you think that a game remaining the most popular at high level for 6 years in a row doesn't mean anything.

I don't believe that everybody is brainwashed and they just play it because everybody plays it or because of money or whatever.
Again 3S - when for whatever reasons the game didn't caught in the west, the community didn't keep playing just because it was the newest game in the franchize. They removed it from the main lineup at B5 and sticked to ST and alpha3. At Evo 2002 the main lineup was ST-CVS2-MVc2.
Why didn't the same happened to SF4 ? why didn't people say "man, this game sucks" and sticked to playing 3S/St/CVS2 ?
Or play it for a year or 2, and then deciding is not worthy. Why didn't the whole community switch to Marvel, or HDR or sxtk or KOF13 or whatever ?

The game is the most sucessful Capcom game since SF2, has huge popularity at high level, grows every year, it's still the most popular 6 years after it's release, and your explanation is - oh well, it's the newest SF game..."

[JACK-2]

If you needed proof that the FGC is the west has become casual. Here it is.

[The Big Daddy C-Master]

Feb 17, 2014 2:56:04 GMT -5 JACK-2 said:

If you needed proof that the FGC is the west has become casual. Here it is.

The problem is that it's taking over. SF4 is big all over. That said I'm sure the Japanese players gave better insight on what needed to be fixed compared to many of the SF4 fanboys, at least I hope.

[JACK-2]

Well, in japan alot of games get a scene for a long time. Not just mainstream ones. So, I'm confident there will be less casualization.

[The Big Daddy C-Master]

Feb 17, 2014 19:15:46 GMT -5 JACK-2 said:

Well, in japan alot of games get a scene for a long time. Not just mainstream ones. So, I'm confident there will be less casualization.

They tend to appreciate games that most US players don't like, such as anime fighters. Also their area is perfect for competitive play due to the dense population, they also have kickass internet in many eastern countries.