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Post by JACK-2 on Aug 15, 2014 23:45:31 GMT -5
I'm 11 minutes into LTTP Vs OOT and I have to say so far his points about Z targeting are weird. I get that Z targeting based combat isn't seemless and there's a disconnect between combat and exploration. But, I find this to be a weird nitpick. OOT combat wasn't good anyway and he rightfully points that out along with the "waiting" which is pointless.
Edit: I'm starting to get his complaints about the discontinuity between environment/exploration and combat. I'm 13:51 in and so far it makes sense. The traps and the enemy design for OOT would fit a 2-D game more. Also, 2-D zelda games have a better connection between Environment, puzzles and enemy. You don't need a special gimmick like Z targetting to fight 2-D enemies. It's completely seamless. Good point.
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The Big Daddy C-Master
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Post by The Big Daddy C-Master on Aug 15, 2014 23:47:03 GMT -5
Nintendo's best was the SNES IMO. That thing had so many great games. YESSS. I've been with Nintendo for a very long time, and I was happiest with their games on the SNES and the Gamecube. The SNES big 3 (Mario, Zelda, Metroid) games were fantastic in their own rights. Super Mario World was an excellent platformer that offered entertainment for veteran platformer players with the secret post-star road levels. I also loved the amount of horizontal control you had on Mario's jump, it felt so beautiful. Link to the Past was pretty good too. Some may not like the fact that it made LoZ linear for the rest of the series, but at least it had SOME exploration, which is more than can be said for Zelda games past that. Super Metroid was also a vast improvement on the NES Metroid for many reasons that I won't bother to gush over. The SNES era took the IPs from the NES and perfected them. The GC added very interesting twists to their big 3 franchises, and I enjoyed all of them. Sunshine's FLUDD and graffiti cleaning offered a fresh twist on Mario's typical fare. Wind Waker gave us a Link with some personality, which meant a lot to me. I hate every other Link, because they all have self-righteousness shoved so far up their asses. I like my characters flawed and brimming with personality, which Toon Link did very well. Metroid Prime's translation of Metroid to 3D was excellent as well (my favourite Nintendo series by far). The most important thing it did in my eyes was it made every part of the world interesting because of the very important scan visor. Now the Wii era disappointed me with all 3 of the big 3 franchises. Super Mario Galaxy took the 'open-ness' of SM64 and made it insanely linear. You just run along a set path until you see a star. Twilight Princess was more dull Link with an incoherent story. The less said about Metroid: Other M, the better (Prime 3 was a great game, though). Since then, I've been disappointed with Nintendo. All of their franchises are dull to me. They're all toned down and far too simple. I do suggest you two watch Egoraptor's Sequilitus, and we can discuss that. It wasn't even simply the first party games to me. The SNES had such a large variety of games that were just really good. Final Fight, SF2, Battletoads, Super Mario World, Super Mario All Stars, Revenge of Double Dragon, etc. I just think it was extremely well done all around. Those really were the good old days. I'd have to say that Super Mario World was probably my favorite Mario game. Mario 3 was excellent as well but World edges it out for me with the way it was done. Kirby Super Star was simply fantastic. Like you said Nintendo is simply too watered down now. I'll be looking at your video and weighing in on it. |
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Post by gurpwnder on Aug 15, 2014 23:58:25 GMT -5
Well, Wii was their most and the most successful console of last Gen. Wii U on the other hand is the biggest bust since Virtual boy. I like the current nintendo, though. I used to not like them, but I've had more satisfying experiences with them versus the other consoles. I have no problems against consoles, more against their fanboys but that's another issue. Oh yeah, fanboys are the WORST. Fanboys are actually hurting the very things they support. A company NEEDS constructive criticism in order to improve, but anything that's not 100% positive to what they love is 'bashing' and you're a 'troll'. |
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The Big Daddy C-Master
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Post by The Big Daddy C-Master on Aug 16, 2014 0:01:24 GMT -5
I have no problems against consoles, more against their fanboys but that's another issue. Oh yeah, fanboys are the WORST. Fanboys are actually hurting the very things they support. A company NEEDS constructive criticism in order to improve, but anything that's not 100% positive to what they love is 'bashing' and you're a 'troll'. Fanboys are just there to blindly support whatever a console does. Companies can rely on them for a very reliable buck, but this alone won't keep a company afloat forever. One of the reasons I'm glad I'm on the PC, less of those silly console war arguments anyways. The Nintendo ones really annoyed me back in the day, it was like playing a Nintendo made them more "legit" or something. That said it's all annoying. It's like people just want to belong to a club, but like most fanboys they just support one thing because they have no experience with anything else, like SF4 fanboys are. |
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Post by JACK-2 on Aug 16, 2014 0:02:50 GMT -5
19 minutes in and he's starting to get less interesting. His points about Dungeon chest and waiting are not making sense. Now, he's talking about the bosses being too streamlined which I agree, but the combat in OOT sucks anyway bosses and all. His points are too disorganized, though. He should organized comparisons in terms of combat, level design, and whatever he wants to discuss.
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The Big Daddy C-Master
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Living life to the fullest, and it feels great.
I'm still here... for now...
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Post by The Big Daddy C-Master on Aug 16, 2014 0:07:11 GMT -5
19 minutes in and he's starting to get less interesting. His points about Dungeon chest and waiting are not making sense. Now, he's talking about the bosses being too streamlined which I agree, but the combat in OOT sucks anyway bosses and all. His points are too disorganized, though. He should organized comparisons in terms of combat, level design, and whatever he wants to discuss. For game comparisons that tends to be the best way to do it. Put it in categories and compare it that way. |
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Post by JACK-2 on Aug 16, 2014 0:09:36 GMT -5
For game comparisons that tends to be the best way to do it. Put it in categories and compare it that way. The review tries to add comedy to make it interesting I guess. It's really not, though. Anyway, where are you up to in the review? |
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The Big Daddy C-Master
Big Daddy
Living life to the fullest, and it feels great.
I'm still here... for now...
Posts: 26,387
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Post by The Big Daddy C-Master on Aug 16, 2014 0:19:28 GMT -5
For game comparisons that tends to be the best way to do it. Put it in categories and compare it that way. The review tries to add comedy to make it interesting I guess. It's really not, though. Anyway, where are you up to in the review? The part where I wake up in a few hours and watch it lol. |
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Post by gurpwnder on Aug 16, 2014 0:22:35 GMT -5
For game comparisons that tends to be the best way to do it. Put it in categories and compare it that way. The review tries to add comedy to make it interesting I guess. It's really not, though. Anyway, where are you up to in the review? What do you agree with / disagree with from his video? I agree with a good chunk of it, but I feel that one point he brought up wasn't expanded on nearly as much as it could've been. In OoT, you often run to a room, shoot an eyeball switch to go to another room and hit a crystal switch. Is that REALLY engaging gameplay? The main reason I'd imagine modern Zelda games' bosses get so much flak is because they're formulaic (like modern Zelda games tend to be). In LoZ NES and LoZ:aLLtP, the bosses were fought in real time. You had to dodge their attacks and counterattack in real time, which (to me) makes a big difference. The bosses become more engaging because you're constantly engaged. |
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Post by JACK-2 on Aug 16, 2014 0:26:23 GMT -5
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Post by JACK-2 on Aug 16, 2014 0:37:20 GMT -5
I disagree'd with everything else, but I agree'd strongly with his view on level design and combat being seamless. Plus level design in 3-D zeldas being dependent on 2-D level designs and it not working. The example of the floor blades was good. But, then it devolved into ranting. The emphasis on exploration and not hand holding. What can I say, Japanese like linear games. Look at their Rpgs for example, they like games that tell you to go from point a and point B. As opposed to exploring and discovering on your own. It's a cultural difference. I disliked him using Tentalus as an example of a boss in Skyward Sword. There are much better bosses tbh and combat in general. It felt like he holds LTTP as the only standard in a Zelda game and if anything doesn't mean that standard then it's inferior. I wanted him to explain how combat in LTTP is better than 3-D zeldas other than talking about "complexity" of Z-targetting. I could go on.
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Post by gurpwnder on Aug 16, 2014 0:39:43 GMT -5
Well to be fair, that's where the video pretty much ends.
I would imagine the reason he's a big fan of the 2D Zeldas is because they (mostly the NES one) emphasized exploration. Every other one since then has become a formula. A chore. Granted, the NES Zelda was pretty difficult to understand in some scenarios. In one dungeon, a man saying "Grumble grumble" is supposed to be a cue for the player to find a secret cave and buy a piece of meat and deliver it to him.
The 3D ones created and regurgitated several tropes, really only adding in a gimmick to shake things up, like WW's ocean, TP's wolf form, SS's Wiimotion Plus controls, etc.
I would also imagine that he puts a huge emphasis on waiting because he likes his video games to be constantly engaging. Constantly having to wait for enemies to expose themselves and the ridiculous amount of time it takes to open a big chest takes away from the action and further puts the word 'formality' into my head.
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Post by gurpwnder on Aug 16, 2014 0:43:42 GMT -5
I disagree'd with everything else, but I agree'd strongly with his view on level design and combat being seamless. Plus level design in 3-D zeldas being dependent on 2-D level designs and it not working. The example of the floor blades was good. But, then it devolved into ranting. The emphasis on exploration and not hand holding. What can I say, Japanese like linear games. Look at their Rpgs for example, they like games that tell you to go from point a and point B. As opposed to exploring and discovering on your own. It's a cultural difference. I disliked him using Tentalus as an example of a boss in Skyward Sword. There are much better bosses tbh and combat in general. It felt like he holds LTTP as the only standard in a Zelda game and if anything doesn't mean that standard then it's inferior. I wanted him to explain how combat in LTTP is better than 3-D zeldas other than talking about "complexity" of Z-targetting. I could go on. He brought up that Link to the Past introduced linearity to the series, which in his opinion really sucks. I think it's the NES LOZ that he holds as the gold standard, since he has nothing but good things to say about that game. The difference in combat really boils down to real time in 2D Zeldas to 'wait, then slash them a bunch' in 3D Zeldas. I don't think there's TOO much to discuss here. |
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Post by JACK-2 on Aug 16, 2014 0:46:30 GMT -5
I agree with the exploration points. I find the do X to get Y thing in 3-D zelda to be boring. Perfect example of this was Twilight princess wolf level and Skyward Sword Silent Realm. They were infuriating. Skyward sword has very little real exploring. But, like I said it's a cultural difference. I disagree with the wiimote being a gimmick for skyward sword. The combat was stellar in that game, it just needs to refine itself more and make the enemy weakness less obvious. But, in terms of 3-D zelda the combat is the best. He kept using the Tentalus example to make a point about Skyward sword which I agree'd about, but it's not a completely fair point.
As for the waiting, the enemies opening up is meh. The enemies suck, they aren't engaging to begin with. I also, don't have a problem with waiting for link to open a chest. That seems like a very trivial point tbh.
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Post by JACK-2 on Aug 16, 2014 0:50:41 GMT -5
He brought up that Link to the Past introduced linearity to the series, which in his opinion really sucks. I think it's the NES LOZ that he holds as the gold standard, since he has nothing but good things to say about that game. Well, the new zelda promised the exploration of the original. So, maybe we'll go back to it. But, I agree'd with this point along with the early points he made. The difference in combat really boils down to real time in 2D Zeldas to 'wait, then slash them a bunch' in 3D Zeldas. I don't think there's TOO much to discuss here. That was true for 3-D Zeldas before Skyward Sword, not anymore. You don't really wait and slash like crazy anymore. |
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Post by gurpwnder on Aug 16, 2014 0:52:23 GMT -5
I call it a gimmick because Skyward Sword is a game that's only playable with Wiimotes with Wiimotion Plus. Once (if) Nintendo ever ditches the Wiimotes, Skyward Sword is unplayable.
I'll be 100% honest with you, I have not played Skyward Sword. I've gotten everything I know from a review from matthewmatosis
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Post by JACK-2 on Aug 16, 2014 0:56:40 GMT -5
I call it a gimmick because Skyward Sword is a game that's only playable with Wiimotes with Wiimotion Plus. Once (if) Nintendo ever ditches the Wiimotes, Skyward Sword is unplayable. I'll be 100% honest with you, I have not played Skyward Sword. I've gotten everything I know from a review from matthewmatosis Unique hard to software is a product of Arcade style games. Where you might have a very specific controller to play a game. I don't see that as Gimmicky, it was a very common way to play Video Games in the arcade Renaissance Think House of the dead or Time Crisis. Which as a long time gamer I miss and grew up with. I thought it was a gimmick as well, but after playing the game I'm sold. Other criticisms are valid. Like it being too linear and what not. But, the Boss fights and combat are the best for a 3-D Zelda. |
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Post by gurpwnder on Aug 16, 2014 1:16:06 GMT -5
14:50, he discusses the combat's flaws.
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Post by JACK-2 on Aug 16, 2014 1:23:17 GMT -5
That's where I'm up to and once again I disagree. He says they're like a simple little puzzle. That true to an extent, the enemies start to punish you for slashing wrong. But, you also have to orient your self to their attacks as to not make mistakes. I agree, that some enemies [one type of enemy] shifts their gaurd to often. But, he exaggerates the Wii-motions inaccuracy. It never fails during counters or single slashes. Only consecutive slashes and You can down your opponent with one hit and follow up with a finisher.
Furthermore, you have the skyward slash that gives you ranged attacks. You don't need to always catch those guys where they're open. Hell, you can attack them right before they hit you.
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Post by gurpwnder on Aug 16, 2014 1:39:09 GMT -5
I don't think it's fair to say that motion controls 'never fail' in any instance, because they always can. They're not 100% precise like a button press, so there's always a chance of failure.
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Post by JACK-2 on Aug 16, 2014 1:47:56 GMT -5
I don't think it's fair to say that motion controls 'never fail' in any instance, because they always can. They're not 100% precise like a button press, so there's always a chance of failure. It's as fair as people believing that there are times when the wii controller fails [which it does] and construe it as failing at very important times when they're really making a mistake. I can tell you when the wii mote fails, if I had a video I could explain the exact situation when it makes a mistake and prove that's not my fault. But, someone saying it fails and blaming the controller doesn't prove it simply because it can fail doesn't mean it did. A more constructive thing to do would map out when it fails and see if there's a pattern. The people making this video aren't doing that. They're making it seem like it's failing randomly. |
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Post by gurpwnder on Aug 16, 2014 1:59:22 GMT -5
Either way, it doesn't really matter. Whether we document them or not, we can still agree that motion controls are not 100% precise, which is pretty much all we need to know. Because they're not 100% precise, there are going to be annoyances that a player of any skill level must deal with. He was just more annoyed than you were.
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Post by JACK-2 on Aug 16, 2014 2:07:58 GMT -5
Either way, it doesn't really matter. Whether we document them or not, we can still agree that motion controls are not 100% precise, which is pretty much all we need to know. Because they're not 100% precise, there are going to be annoyances that a player of any skill level must deal with. He was just more annoyed than you were. Fair enough, they don't work 100% of the time. But, what I was saying was it seemed to me that the player was trying to use the functionality of the wii-mote as a way to critque the fights. That seemed nitpickish since he never bothered to list an example of when it failed in the heat of combat. He went into more detail about why motion controls fail during flight and swimming. Going into detail about the Analog sticks kinestheics. So, he came off as nitpickish and seemed more like he was trying to give his 2cents then anything else. This is why I tend to avoid reviews, too much ranting. |
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Post by gurpwnder on Aug 16, 2014 2:16:09 GMT -5
All right, I'll stop throwing so many reviews in here, sorry.
I do think he makes some good points, and is one of the few people who aren't either "Skyward Sword: best game evar!" or "Fuck Skyward Sword" while being a Zelda series veteran, so I threw it in here if you wanted to discuss it.
If you'd like to discuss Zelda in general, we can absolutely do that instead.
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Post by JACK-2 on Aug 16, 2014 2:25:58 GMT -5
I see where you're coming from. I think though that you or C himself could articulate better as to if the game is good or not. None one here is polarized or bias from what I've seen and we tend to try to be impartial. I played and beat Skyward sword and I agree with the hand holding being excessive with little to no room in exploration. Where I diverge with other people is the combat. I think Guard meter and counters add depth to the game. It forces you to avoid abusing block and learning to read enemy attacks. The stamina meter would be great, but it isn't pushed to it's limits anywhere outside the silent realm. The game should have some challenging platforming that relies on managing the Stamina meter.
But, the problem is fanboy wars between haters and fanboys ruins most discussions. People can't separate their feelings from the games they play. Yes, we should make a Zelda General. A new game is on our fingertips too. I think we should make a Wii U/ 3DS general, even better.
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The Big Daddy C-Master
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I'm still here... for now...
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Post by The Big Daddy C-Master on Aug 16, 2014 6:47:44 GMT -5
I see where you're coming from. I think though that you or C himself could articulate better as to if the game is good or not. None one here is polarized or bias from what I've seen and we tend to try to be impartial. I played and beat Skyward sword and I agree with the hand holding being excessive with little to no room in exploration. Where I diverge with other people is the combat. I think Guard meter and counters add depth to the game. It forces you to avoid abusing block and learning to read enemy attacks. The stamina meter would be great, but it isn't pushed to it's limits anywhere outside the silent realm. The game should have some challenging platforming that relies on managing the Stamina meter. But, the problem is fanboy wars between haters and fanboys ruins most discussions. People can't separate their feelings from the games they play. Yes, we should make a Zelda General. A new game is on our fingertips too. I think we should make a Wii U/ 3DS general, even better. It would be hard for me to articulate the quality of the game perfectly since I haven't played it. I don't like to give strong opinions about something I haven't done. I was only asking you what you thought was better compared to OoT, I can talk about general things but I'm not going to say something is good or bad without playing it since it goes against what I believe. I'd be a hypocrite since I criticize others for doing it anyways. That said I loved the 2d Zelda games a lot. I like exploration in games like Zelda and I'm not as fond with the linearity you see in most modern games (like the new Duke Nukem). I don't think this is for cultural reasons. Japan's overall culture hasn't changed *that* much since the earlier Zelda games. I think this modern hand holding in terms of exploration is more or less a modern way to make games "more accessible" and easier to play for newcomers. That I don't like. |
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Post by JACK-2 on Aug 16, 2014 9:44:44 GMT -5
Well actually, the linearity started in LTTP according to one reviewer. If you look at the difference between Jrpgs and western ones you'll see this open world vs Linear game issue as well. That's why Japanese don't make sand-box games for instance. I think the original Zelda being open world was just a coincidence.
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Post by gurpwnder on Aug 16, 2014 9:50:58 GMT -5
I see where you're coming from. I think though that you or C himself could articulate better as to if the game is good or not. None one here is polarized or bias from what I've seen and we tend to try to be impartial. I played and beat Skyward sword and I agree with the hand holding being excessive with little to no room in exploration. Where I diverge with other people is the combat. I think Guard meter and counters add depth to the game. It forces you to avoid abusing block and learning to read enemy attacks. The stamina meter would be great, but it isn't pushed to it's limits anywhere outside the silent realm. The game should have some challenging platforming that relies on managing the Stamina meter. But, the problem is fanboy wars between haters and fanboys ruins most discussions. People can't separate their feelings from the games they play. Yes, we should make a Zelda General. A new game is on our fingertips too. I think we should make a Wii U/ 3DS general, even better. I definitely see that you enjoy the combat, but is there anything else about Skyward Sword you really enjoyed? Don't get me wrong, swordplay is important, and getting the feeling of slashing your enemies can make for a good time, but I wouldn't really call swordplay a defining part of any Zelda game. I thought that Zelda was all about the 'puzzles' in dungeons. There are some good ideas from Skyward Sword, like the stamina meter, Link's improved mobility and the ability to put bomb flowers into your bomb bag (but the fuse lights up when you pick the flower up, wouldn't it eventually explode in your bomb bag?), but then they take out OTHER good ideas, like faries not doing anything if Link touches them at full health, running and swinging your sword (I don't see why Link he to be standing still to cut, it would make grass cutting quicker). My views on pretty much the entire LoZ series as a whole is pretty much negative though, I should've warned you about that beforehand. |
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Post by JACK-2 on Aug 16, 2014 14:07:40 GMT -5
It's okay, because I've had the same negative views as well. However, I think Skyward sword is a change in the right direction. OOT really isn't as great as many people made it out to be and for a long time that was the model for Zelda nintendo used for the 3-D games, but since Skyward sword they seem to be trying to move in a more different directions. Imo that's a plus!
The puzzles are typical for a 3-D Zelda game. I have no strong opinion of them being better or worst. The exploration however is lacking and it seems like the new Zelda might go back to it's roots.
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Post by gurpwnder on Aug 16, 2014 14:49:34 GMT -5
At the end of the day, what else (besides the swordplay) did Skyward Sword really shake up?
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