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Post by JACK-2 on Aug 21, 2014 22:31:12 GMT -5
That is what I'm arguing. I'm asking you to prove facts are real and that we actually exist.
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Post by JACK-2 on Aug 21, 2014 22:32:24 GMT -5
So are you saying gravity doesn't exist? How does believing that nothing actually exist prove that God exists? I'm asking you to prove that anything exists under your worldview. I believe in gravity of course. |
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Post by The Big Daddy C-Master on Aug 21, 2014 22:34:04 GMT -5
That is what I'm arguing. I'm asking you to prove facts are real and that we actually exist. How would this prove that God exists? Is controlling my own body essentially dogma? |
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Post by The Big Daddy C-Master on Aug 21, 2014 22:35:25 GMT -5
So are you saying gravity doesn't exist? How does believing that nothing actually exist prove that God exists? I'm asking you to prove that anything exists under your worldview. I believe in gravity of course. I already did this. I want you to prove that God exists. Why do you believe in it? |
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Post by JACK-2 on Aug 21, 2014 22:37:39 GMT -5
How would this prove that God exists? Is controlling my own body essentially dogma? I'm simply demonstrating the logical conclusions of world views. So, can you answer the questions: That there is truth, that you can rightfully discern truth through reason, and the tangible world is true? |
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Post by JACK-2 on Aug 21, 2014 22:39:45 GMT -5
No, you did not. You assumed that something being tangible is real. I asked you how you knew this and I'm still waiting for the answer. I want you to prove that God exists. Why do you believe in it? Because it's the absolute cornerstone for making absolute claims. I can't claim truth, truth through reason or that the world really exsist without God. Try it. |
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Post by The Big Daddy C-Master on Aug 21, 2014 22:40:37 GMT -5
How would this prove that God exists? Is controlling my own body essentially dogma? I'm simply demonstrating the logical conclusions of world views. So, can you answer the questions: That there is truth, that you can rightfully discern truth through reason, and the tangible world is true? It's not a world view, it's simple cause and effect. You never answered my original question when I asked you to prove religion existed. Simply saying "well nothing could *truly exist* it's all an illusion", doesn't remove facts or reasoning, nor does it prove that God exists. If there is no logic, then there's no point in debating anything because you cannot prove anything. |
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Post by JACK-2 on Aug 21, 2014 22:42:54 GMT -5
If there is no logic, then there's no point in debating anything because you cannot prove anything. So, then it would be a matter of faith just like God. |
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Post by JACK-2 on Aug 21, 2014 22:43:40 GMT -5
You never answered my original question when I asked you to prove religion existed. Simply saying "well nothing could *truly exist* it's all an illusion", doesn't remove facts or reasoning, nor does it prove that God exists. So, why are facts and reasoning on the table outside of faith? |
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Post by The Big Daddy C-Master on Aug 21, 2014 22:45:11 GMT -5
No, you did not. You assumed that something being tangible is real. I asked you how you knew this and I'm still waiting for the answer. I want you to prove that God exists. Why do you believe in it? Because it's the absolute cornerstone for making absolute claims. I can't claim truth, truth through reason or that the world really exsist without God. Try it. No I did not, I said you can prove things through tangible evidence. Otherwise it's completely meaningless because you can assert anything. So you believe in gravity because it's required to explain other things? You don't know whether anything exists or not. You can't prove it? Why would you need faith in the first place? What would be the difference if nothing actually exists. It's an extreme and absurd argument to get around facing reality, a.k.a it's cognitive dissonance. All this proves is that denying facts is necessary to believe dogma. |
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Post by The Big Daddy C-Master on Aug 21, 2014 22:45:59 GMT -5
If there is no logic, then there's no point in debating anything because you cannot prove anything. So, then it would be a matter of faith just like God. According to you. Not to any other rational person based on that logic. |
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Post by The Big Daddy C-Master on Aug 21, 2014 22:47:06 GMT -5
You never answered my original question when I asked you to prove religion existed. Simply saying "well nothing could *truly exist* it's all an illusion", doesn't remove facts or reasoning, nor does it prove that God exists. So, why are facts and reasoning on the table outside of faith? Having faith in something and proving something aren't the same thing. |
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Post by JACK-2 on Aug 21, 2014 22:48:31 GMT -5
According to you. Not to any other rational person based on that logic. So, then please prove reason gives true insight. |
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Post by JACK-2 on Aug 21, 2014 22:49:38 GMT -5
Having faith in something and proving something aren't the same thing. Agree'd, So, then you can prove that anything exist outside of you having faith in logic I assume? |
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Post by The Big Daddy C-Master on Aug 21, 2014 22:54:06 GMT -5
According to you. Not to any other rational person based on that logic. So, then please prove reason gives true insight. Insight is based on what a person wants to do what the information they get. Facts are based on things that exist in reality, faith isn't based on facts and are based on feeling due to a lack of evidence. Without basing your life off of facts you wouldn't be able to make it day through day without serious trouble. You use facts day to day in critical and logistical decision making. Faith is outside of all of that. Faith in facts is a fallacy. I don't need faith in facts because those can be proven and faith cannot. So can you or can you not prove that God Exists? |
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Post by JACK-2 on Aug 21, 2014 22:57:31 GMT -5
Insight is based on what a person wants to do what the information they get. Facts are based on things that exist in reality, faith isn't based on facts and are based on feeling due to a lack of evidence. Without basing your life off of facts you wouldn't be able to make it day through day without serious trouble. You use facts day to day in critical and logistical decision making. Faith is outside of all of that. Faith in facts is a fallacy. I don't need faith in facts because those can be proven and faith cannot. So can you or can you not prove that God Exists? I'm asking you once again to prove that those facts are real that the method you use to understand them [Reason and logic] is can truly understand the world. Saying you believe in facts because they're fact is once again circular reasoning. You say you believe in them because they're proven. I ask you how and you respond because of logic, I ask you how do you know logic is true. . .no answer. I ask you how do you know that reality is actually real. . .no answer Until you answer my question I won't answer yours. It's not fair for me. |
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Post by The Big Daddy C-Master on Aug 21, 2014 23:10:10 GMT -5
Insight is based on what a person wants to do what the information they get. Facts are based on things that exist in reality, faith isn't based on facts and are based on feeling due to a lack of evidence. Without basing your life off of facts you wouldn't be able to make it day through day without serious trouble. You use facts day to day in critical and logistical decision making. Faith is outside of all of that. Faith in facts is a fallacy. I don't need faith in facts because those can be proven and faith cannot. So can you or can you not prove that God Exists? I'm asking you once again to prove that those facts are real that the method you use to understand them [Reason and logic] is can truly understand the world. Saying you believe in facts because they're fact is once again circular reasoning. You say you believe in them because they're proven. I ask you how and you respond because of logic, I ask you how do you know logic is true. . .no answer. I ask you how do you know that reality is actually real. . .no answer Until you answer my question I won't answer yours. It's not fair for me. BS. I asked you to prove religion existed long ago and you dodged my question by going on this ridiculous goose chase because you don't want to get to the actual point, even after I answered your questions several times. You go around in circles because it's not the answer you want. This is exactly why I don't like discussing nonsense like this because it's even worse than arguing any other topic. The bottom line end fact is that you believe it based on *faith* there is no fact, there is no proof. You accept that you believe in a supreme being without the tools to prove he actually exists. I went to church, I was religious. I know what faith is. I respect people who can admit that what they believe in is based on faith and not to sit and pretend like it actually exists. Your entire argument is a circle. Asking if one thing is real after another and asking for proof of reality is basically just arguing in circles. You can deny gravity, and deny your hand existing on your arm, but that doesn't disprove them. People deny things all of the time. It's called cognitive dissonance. I said I believe in facts because you can prove them. You have no proof that God exists. Saying "gravity is a belief because reality isn't real" doesn't disprove gravity, it just means you're in denial about it and you have no actual means to disprove that gravity DOES exist. Just concede that you can't prove that God exists and let it go. Stop trying to compare it to a fact like gravity. Otherwise this discussion is pointless. How can you prove that there's no Loch Ness Monster or Peter pan flying at night? What you're doing is a red herring. It's sloppy debating. |
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Post by JACK-2 on Aug 21, 2014 23:21:04 GMT -5
BS. I asked you to prove religion existed long ago and you dodged my question by going on this ridiculous goose chase because you don't want to get to the actual point, even after I answered your questions several times. You didn't answer the point. You made an example using gravity which was an appeal to consequence. Consistency doesn't mean something is true. I countered with the hallucination argument and you never gave me a response. You go around in circles because it's not the answer you want. This is exactly why I don't like discussing nonsense like this because it's even worse than arguing any other topic. The bottom line end fact is that you believe it based on *faith* there is no fact, there is no proof. Uh, I said God is faith based and so is superiority of reason, existence of Truth and whether or not reality is real. You accept that you believe in a supreme being without the tools to prove he actually exists. I went to church, I was religious. I know what faith is. I respect people who can admit that what they believe in is based on faith and not to sit and pretend like it actually exists. Your entire argument is a circle. Asking if one thing is real after another and asking for proof of reality is basically just arguing in circles. You can deny gravity, and deny your hand existing on your arm, but that doesn't disprove them. People deny things all of the time. It's called cognitive dissonance. I said I believe in facts because you can prove them. You have no proof that God exists.I'm not one of those church going types you come across. I keep telling you that and you don't believe me. I even told you I don't go to church. I study philosophy, namely western philosophy and of course that sometimes means religions since theologians in the middle ages used philosophy as well. I never denied gravity, I asked you to prove it exists. I asked you to prove them. We can start over if you want? Prove: The world is really real, Truth is real, and logic can really discern truth. Saying "gravity is a belief because reality isn't real" doesn't disprove gravity, it just means you're in denial about it and you have no actual means to disprove that gravity DOES exist. I didn't even say gravity doesn't exist. I said prove in your world view that it exist and you went on about it's consistency. Ehich didn't prove it exist. Just concede that you can't prove that God exists and let it go. Stop trying to compare it to a fact like gravity. Otherwise this discussion is pointless. How can you prove that there's no Loch Ness Monster or Peter pan flying at night? What you're doing is a red herring. It's sloppy debating. You can't prove something doesn't exist. I asked you to prove gravity does exist along with truth and reality. I didn't ask you to prove they didn't exist. |
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Post by JACK-2 on Aug 21, 2014 23:24:34 GMT -5
Cee, I thought you were going to make more concise post? This is getting out of hand, I never claimed you had to dispove the existence of anything. I only asked you to prove reality and truth exist and reason can find truth. That's it.
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Post by The Big Daddy C-Master on Aug 21, 2014 23:36:01 GMT -5
You're mistaken. I asked you about this in a post a long time ago. You dodged my question and went into this rant about how "nothing really exists", which destroys the point of any debate. It was completely ridiculous and really didn't prove anything. I already gave you an example about gravity (which is an example, not an appeal to consequence), then you told me how did I not know I was hallucinating about it and that's when it crossed to the absurd. I mean bro, if you want to discuss reality or truth in another thread, let's do that there. Don't interject that here because it is about the lowest form of argument for this type of discussion or any other discussion outside of a discussion about reality. "How do you know that everything isn't a dream"? Really, let's derail this crazy thread even more with stuff like this.  You know that it's faith based anyways obviously, and I know it. We both know that it isn't like gravity or my hand being attached to my arm. Facts and faith aren't the same thing. In fact they are pretty much opposites. You're welcome to believe that if you want (not sure you do), but I won't take it seriously and debate it. That said if you want to make a philosophical discussion about reality, be my guest. We can discuss that there. Also, I never said you were some bible thumping church going type. I'm not really sure where to pinpoint you. You say it's philosophy yet you believe in religion strongly and that churches are important. You believe in God on faith yet you seem smart enough not to believe the stories present in the bible. Not sure if you do this for some higher purpose or motivation or what. On the same end, I'm not some "psuedo intellectual atheist/darwinist" I have no problem with people believing in whatever. I just don't like it when they shove it down my throat (not saying you do that usually) or act like it's the path to good morals. I believe in results and good decision making along with logic and facts. That's about as simple as it gets. Sorry if I got you mad, but man that last part annoyed me a bit. Maybe I've just been working too long today lol. |
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Post by The Big Daddy C-Master on Aug 21, 2014 23:37:11 GMT -5
Cee, I thought you were going to make more concise post? This is getting out of hand, I never claimed you had to dispove the existence of anything. I only asked you to prove reality and truth exist and reason can find truth. That's it. You're the one that keeps quoting everything into a million pieces. Let's make a thread about reality. Less personal than religion anyways. |
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Post by JACK-2 on Aug 21, 2014 23:40:36 GMT -5
You're wrong. I asked you about this in a post a long time ago. You dodged my question and went into this rant about how "nothing really exists", which destroys the point of any debate. It was completely ridiculous and really didn't prove anything. That's a lie, I said it's faith based just like your assumption on tangible being real. It's not ridiculous. If it's a fact then you should have no problem proving it. I already gave you an example about gravity (which is an example, not an appeal to consequence), You said it's consistent therefore true. That's an appeal to consequence. then you told me how did I not know I was hallucinating about it and that's when it crossed to the absurd. I mean bro, if you want to discuss reality or truth in another thread, let's do that there. Don't interject that here because it is about the lowest form of argument for this type of discussion or any other discussion outside of a discussion about reality. "How do you know that everything isn't a dream"? Really, let's derail this crazy thread even more with stuff like this. Bro, I don't think you understand my argument and how God is fundamental to what we call reality. But, okay. I made another thread. Lets take it there. You know that it's faith based anyways obviously, and I know it. We both know that it isn't like gravity or my hand being attached to my arm. Facts and faith aren't the same thing. In fact they are pretty much opposites. You're welcome to believe that if you want (not sure you do), but I won't take it seriously and debate it. That said if you want to make a philosophical discussion about reality, be my guest. We can discuss that there. Also, I never said you were some bible thumping church going type. I'm not really sure where to pinpoint you. You say it's philosophy yet you believe in religion strongly and that churches are important. You believe in God on faith yet you seem smart enough not to believe the stories present in the bible. Not sure if you do this for some higher purpose or motivation or what. On the same end, I'm not some "psuedo intellectual atheist/darwinist" I have no problem with people believing in whatever. I just don't like it when they shove it down my throat (not saying you do that usually) or act like it's the path to good morals. I believe in results and good decision making along with logic and facts. That's about as simple as it gets. Sorry if I got you mad, but man that last part annoyed me a bit. Maybe I've just been working too long today lol. No, I'm no mad. You're civil as always. Let's take it to another place. |
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Post by The Big Daddy C-Master on Aug 21, 2014 23:42:50 GMT -5
You said it's faith based just now. I asked you earlier and you said you wouldn't answer my question.
Something being proven is not an appeal to consequence. I didn't say gravity exists because it's true.
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Post by JACK-2 on Aug 21, 2014 23:45:13 GMT -5
I did not say just now. I said in the previous page that it's faith just like believing that a clever ape can understand the universe.
You said gravity exist because of the consequence of being consistent. Consistency =/= truth. If I have a hallucination consistently is it true?
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Post by The Big Daddy C-Master on Aug 21, 2014 23:48:54 GMT -5
I did not say just now. I said in the previous page that it's faith just like believing that a clever ape can understand the universe. You said gravity exist because of the consequence of being consistent. Consistency =/= truth. If I have a hallucination consistently is it true? That's not true. Humans do understand parts of the universe. Little by little, but they still do it. No. I used the ball as an example, and I said you could replicate this anywhere at anytime on earth with different people and get the same result in regards to your "hallucination" argument. You do know how laws work right? You have a hypothesis and then you gather data and test it tons of times before it is treated as a law for consistency. If something happens sometimes and not other times then it is not fully consistent and could have another cause for it. That's not saying "just because". |
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Post by JACK-2 on Aug 21, 2014 23:50:12 GMT -5
Go to the v-sauce thread.
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Post by The Big Daddy C-Master on Aug 26, 2014 7:45:53 GMT -5
So I was doing some reading on this, and to summarize a few things. The US constitution was *not* founded on Christianity. Our founding fathers were from the enlightenment age, which means they were free thinkers who didn't really follow Christianity even if some of them might have had spiritual belief in a deity. The words"Jesus Christ, Christianity, Bible, Creator, Divine, and God" are never mentioned in the Constitution-- not even once. If the founding fathers wanted the Constitution to be based on religion they would have explicitly said that. Furthermore while many of them believed in a Deity, it wasn't the same God in the bible, and they didn't believe in the divinity of Jesus either. Most of them were outright opposed to the bible and the teachings of Christianity. Also in regards to inalienable rights, here was Thomas Jefferson's original wording before congress interfered: "All men are created equal and independent. From that equal creation they derive rights inherent and inalienable." Here is the altered version, which sounds more religious:"All men are created equal. They are endowed by their creator with certain unalienable rights." The Declaration of Independence is Historical though not government based. There's a lot of revisionist history with extreme right wingers who want to make this country more religious, when in fact we were free thinkers. There's tons and tons more here, I can pull quotes for days: freethought.mbdojo.com/foundingfathers.html"The 1796 Treaty with Tripoli states that the United States was "not in any sense founded on the Christian religion" (see the image on the right). This was not an idle statement meant to satisfy muslims-- they believed it and meant it. This treaty was written under the presidency of George Washington and signed under the presidency of John Adams."  |
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