Post by The Big Daddy C-Master on Dec 25, 2014 22:32:56 GMT -5
www.eventhubs.com/news/2014/dec/25/combofiend-explains-why-having-mechanics-give-new-players-fighting-chance-important-help-them-stick-around-and-not-give/
"Capcom's Peter "Combofiend" Rosas is a competitor who's ran the gamut during his time as a top player.
Rosas has jousted with some of the best players on the planet, and also handed losses to competitors who are just starting out, and that time behind the joystick taught him a number of lessons.
Several months back, a user had asked Rosas why Capcom adds comeback mechanics that give new players a "fighting chance" when all it does, in his opinion, is ensure they lose harder.
Peter in turn shared some experiences he had with one of the most popular games in the hardcore scene back in the day, Capcom vs. SNK 2, a game with no comeback mechanics.
Rosas said that while intermediate players who had put some time in were more likely to stick around and keep playing, newcomers who couldn't even get past the first character on his 3-man team, were so frustrated they would give up, before they even had a chance to learn the game.
You can find the entire string of dialogue below, and if you've ever wondered why comeback mechanics have become much more common in today's fighting games, Rosas' thought provoking answer should shine a lot of light on the situation.
Mr. Reaper: People don't suck at fighting games because they're too hard. They suck because they don't want to learn.
Nothing short of time and dedication can help you get good at them. System mechanics that are meant to give newcomers a "fighting chance" do nothing but ensure they lose even harder, and in most cases, make the game more defensive and boring for everyone else. Why hasn't this company realized it doesn't work?
That's not to say there shouldn't be new mechanics of any kind for SF5, but there are better solutions than scrubbing the game up. Like in-depth tutorials on every aspect of the game.
Combofiend would know this better than anyone. Doesn't he have enough influence in the company to push this feature? Can we urge him to get the devs to actually TRY to make a new SF that rewards you for learning and hard work, and not for being incompetent? The latter is not how any competitive game should operate.
Combofiend: Hello, thanks for your feedback.
I definitely agree with you when you say that "nothing short of time and dedication" will get you good at fighting games. However, I don't think the issue here "how to get good at fighting games" but rather "how to get people to stick around" so that they will put in the time and dedication to get better.
The battle mechanics that give players a "fighting chance" are not necessarily a bad thing. I say this because a player who has put in time and dedication will know how to avoid being hit by said mechanics. For a new player however, the difference between losing by 20% vs. 80% could mean the difference between whether they quit the game or stick around.
I can tell you first hand that in CvS2 (a game with no real comeback mechanic), I was able to destroy beginner to upper intermediate players with just one character.
All this did was make the beginner quit, as they realized they had no chance, while the intermediate players decided to continue and stay. The intermediate players already decided to put in the time and dedication though, which is why they stuck around, whereas the beginners saw it was hopeless or too much work to get to my level and went on to a different game.
In regards to in-depth, I think they are definitely a great tool for those who have made the choice to better their game. Once again however, if a player has a bad taste in their mouth after getting beat badly, the tutorials really won't help the situation.
You mention that there should be a reward for "learning and hard work." That reward is already there, it's called winning.
If one puts in the time and dedication, then one should be winning more than not. Now, I know that it may be annoying that one can't be as dominant as they were in the old games and sometimes you have to play a little more "defensive and boring" to ensure one doesn't lose, but I don't think it's a bad thing.
It's these comeback mechanics that bring new players to the game and transition them into those who want to continue on the journey to be a world warrior. This in effect then gives a fighting game player the one thing they want more of: competition.
The alternative would be to remove any hope at all for beginners, but all that would result in is a game that would be perceived as too hard to play or a game geared toward specialists. Think about SFIII:3s and MvC2. Sure, the guys who put in time and dedication liked it, but after a while they were the only ones left playing it."
"Capcom's Peter "Combofiend" Rosas is a competitor who's ran the gamut during his time as a top player.
Rosas has jousted with some of the best players on the planet, and also handed losses to competitors who are just starting out, and that time behind the joystick taught him a number of lessons.
Several months back, a user had asked Rosas why Capcom adds comeback mechanics that give new players a "fighting chance" when all it does, in his opinion, is ensure they lose harder.
Peter in turn shared some experiences he had with one of the most popular games in the hardcore scene back in the day, Capcom vs. SNK 2, a game with no comeback mechanics.
Rosas said that while intermediate players who had put some time in were more likely to stick around and keep playing, newcomers who couldn't even get past the first character on his 3-man team, were so frustrated they would give up, before they even had a chance to learn the game.
You can find the entire string of dialogue below, and if you've ever wondered why comeback mechanics have become much more common in today's fighting games, Rosas' thought provoking answer should shine a lot of light on the situation.
Mr. Reaper: People don't suck at fighting games because they're too hard. They suck because they don't want to learn.
Nothing short of time and dedication can help you get good at them. System mechanics that are meant to give newcomers a "fighting chance" do nothing but ensure they lose even harder, and in most cases, make the game more defensive and boring for everyone else. Why hasn't this company realized it doesn't work?
That's not to say there shouldn't be new mechanics of any kind for SF5, but there are better solutions than scrubbing the game up. Like in-depth tutorials on every aspect of the game.
Combofiend would know this better than anyone. Doesn't he have enough influence in the company to push this feature? Can we urge him to get the devs to actually TRY to make a new SF that rewards you for learning and hard work, and not for being incompetent? The latter is not how any competitive game should operate.
Combofiend: Hello, thanks for your feedback.
I definitely agree with you when you say that "nothing short of time and dedication" will get you good at fighting games. However, I don't think the issue here "how to get good at fighting games" but rather "how to get people to stick around" so that they will put in the time and dedication to get better.
The battle mechanics that give players a "fighting chance" are not necessarily a bad thing. I say this because a player who has put in time and dedication will know how to avoid being hit by said mechanics. For a new player however, the difference between losing by 20% vs. 80% could mean the difference between whether they quit the game or stick around.
I can tell you first hand that in CvS2 (a game with no real comeback mechanic), I was able to destroy beginner to upper intermediate players with just one character.
All this did was make the beginner quit, as they realized they had no chance, while the intermediate players decided to continue and stay. The intermediate players already decided to put in the time and dedication though, which is why they stuck around, whereas the beginners saw it was hopeless or too much work to get to my level and went on to a different game.
In regards to in-depth, I think they are definitely a great tool for those who have made the choice to better their game. Once again however, if a player has a bad taste in their mouth after getting beat badly, the tutorials really won't help the situation.
You mention that there should be a reward for "learning and hard work." That reward is already there, it's called winning.
If one puts in the time and dedication, then one should be winning more than not. Now, I know that it may be annoying that one can't be as dominant as they were in the old games and sometimes you have to play a little more "defensive and boring" to ensure one doesn't lose, but I don't think it's a bad thing.
It's these comeback mechanics that bring new players to the game and transition them into those who want to continue on the journey to be a world warrior. This in effect then gives a fighting game player the one thing they want more of: competition.
The alternative would be to remove any hope at all for beginners, but all that would result in is a game that would be perceived as too hard to play or a game geared toward specialists. Think about SFIII:3s and MvC2. Sure, the guys who put in time and dedication liked it, but after a while they were the only ones left playing it."
