Meter Management in Fighting Games:

[The Big Daddy C-Master]

Feb 15, 2015 19:37:42 GMT -5 doomfanatiq said:

3. conclusion (uncertain of the effects of his buffs/nerfs, i don't mean literally unchanged lol, i mean i am unsure of whether akuma is buff or nerf overall, it's debatable because some think he is buff more, some think he is nerf more.) 
- better fireball = more reliable combos, more potential damage.
- A force stand fast start up normal = more reliable combos damage, more potential damage
- end of the day, eryu advantages over akuma remain unchanged as i mentioned, while akuma have nerfs and unchanged advantages in this matchup. what do you think using my scale of matchups, how  many matches do u think akuma/eryu can win in 10 games ?

Hard for me to say honestly. I do think Akuma is stronger in neutral but he got more buffs and was nerfed more. Evil Ryu wasn't really buffed in any interesting way but he didn't lose vortex either.

Feb 15, 2015 19:37:42 GMT -5 doomfanatiq said:

- while balrog had buffs to make some of his moves safer, his neutral games is heavily dependant on his normals and dash straight (acts like feilong rekka). he is still unable to throw out all those special moves at a whim like fireballs. his normals are the same (no changes) his lp dash straight on hit is safer, but on block is still punishable -3. 
- eryu had advantage in ae2012 because of better risk rewards in neutral game as compared to balrog. but now that balrog was buff (some good ones, but mostly insignificant buffs, if u remember, pr balrog was bitching about the insignificant buffs, he had wished that dash straight on block is made safe instead of still -3). so it should be a 5-5 matchup in ultra. 

What's wrong with him being dependent on normals mid range? Most characters are and he has one of the best sets of normals in the game. He has top notch footsies along with Bison, Chun Li, Fei Long, Vega, etc. He has pushback so it's not a guaranteed punish on a dash straight and he beats out Evil Ryu's pokes in mid range. This is a problem match.
Evil Ryu did not have an advantageous matchup against Balrog. He just keeps him out very well. Very frustrating matchup. Balrog doesn't take any real risk in neutral game but he has lower damage like all poke characters. 6-4 Balrog. PR actually beat Diago with Balrog and I remember Daigo saying that Evil Ry u struggled in these matchups as opposed to Ryu and he's right.

Feb 15, 2015 19:37:42 GMT -5 doomfanatiq said:

- even though blanka is harder now, but it doesn't mean eryu doesn't have the advantage still. as i mentioned, eryu maintain advantage in neutral game. this is enough of a headache for most chars who had to get in like blanka to deal damage. 

Blanka was considered a hard matchup for Evil Ryu in 2012 because he had a way to get around his zoning and other tools. Shotos have a harder time with Blanka in general. Now he has even better neutral. 6-4 Blanka.

[The Big Daddy C-Master]

Feb 15, 2015 19:41:07 GMT -5 doomfanatiq said:

Feb 15, 2015 19:23:07 GMT -5 The Big Daddy C-Master said:

Yes, but neutral is only one part of a matchup. Poking plays one part. There's also zoning, mixups, and rushdown, and basic keepaway. Street Fighter isn't entirely neutral. No fighter is like that. A fighter with strong rushdown and a weak wakeup game is going to do better with DWU than without because he can stay in and he also has better defense from setups when he's on his back for instance. For instance Yun didn't have the best wakeup (it was ok), but DWU only helps him play his game even better as he has less to worry about.

i agree with that, however, u cannot deny the big part that neutral game plays in getting in, dudley have insane pressure in close range, but they balance him by giving him worse pokes than akuma eryu. this is the reason why dudley beat alot of chars without good defensive options or a reliable neutral game, while at the same time, he lose grapplers like thawk or zangief badly.


before those chars get to use their close range strengths such as makoto dudley,  they need to beat eryu at his neutral game first... that's why neutral game is more important which is why akuma get so much leverage with his ridiculous mobility and air fb. make sense ? 

You're giving a lot of credit to the neutral game in SF4, lol. In reality the neutral is watered down with things like focus attacks and other gimmicky low risk high reward moves, not to mention option selects. Evil Ryu has high burst damage but it only comes from neutral and punishes. Makoto and Dudley are characters that make you guess wrong once they get in on you (like Takuma in Kof). They might have different mid range options, but their up close mixups are far superior to his and characters like Cammy have great frame advantage, and C. Viper has great mixups. One of the reasons it was always annoying debating Evil Ryu on EH was that people just said "high damage" without recognizing the kind of damage. Coin flip until you die is far more annoying than losing in neutral because you were just outread.

Also keep in mind that Makoto and Dudley have worse wakeup games. They also got buffs in neutral. They'd lose even worse without DWU because they have little defense against knockdown games like Evil Ryu's and they don't really rely on knockdown setplay anyways.

[doomfanatiq]

Feb 15, 2015 19:50:30 GMT -5 The Big Daddy C-Master said:

Feb 15, 2015 19:41:07 GMT -5 doomfanatiq said:

i agree with that, however, u cannot deny the big part that neutral game plays in getting in, dudley have insane pressure in close range, but they balance him by giving him worse pokes than akuma eryu. this is the reason why dudley beat alot of chars without good defensive options or a reliable neutral game, while at the same time, he lose grapplers like thawk or zangief badly.


before those chars get to use their close range strengths such as makoto dudley,  they need to beat eryu at his neutral game first... that's why neutral game is more important which is why akuma get so much leverage with his ridiculous mobility and air fb. make sense ? 

You're giving a lot of credit to the neutral game in SF4, lol. In reality the neutral is watered down with things like focus attacks and other gimmicky low risk high reward moves, not to mention option selects. Evil Ryu has high burst damage but it only comes from neutral and punishes. Makoto and Dudley are characters that make you guess wrong once they get in on you (like Takuma in Kof). They might have different mid range options, but their up close mixups are far superior to his and characters like Cammy have great frame advantage, and C. Viper has great mixups. One of the reasons it was always annoying debating Evil Ryu on EH was that people just said "high damage" without recognizing the kind of damage. Coin flip until you die is far more annoying than losing in neutral because you were just outread.

Also keep in mind that Makoto and Dudley have worse wakeup games. They also got buffs in neutral. They'd lose even worse without DWU because they have little defense against knockdown games like Evil Ryu's and they don't really rely on knockdown setplay anyways.

i gave alot of credit to neutral game because that's how most high level matches play out, nobody is willing to take the risk in jumping in  or spam focus attacks as comparable to using neutral game tools to to beat opponents. 

focus attacks are unsafe and can be reacted with cr mk> tatsu, low risk high reward moves used to be vortex, but now other chars tools (or gimmicks as u call it) can shine now because vortex was nerf, not that vortex is gone. dudley, makoto can make players pay heavily once they get in, but eryu does make opponents pay too when he get in. it's not like eryu is lacking in the close range offensive tools to deal damage.

makoto dudley doesn't rely on knockdown setplays, but as i mentioned their neutral game didn't get better significantly, honestly, just try and use dudley and makoto to get in on eryu/ryu/akuma/ken, i promise it's much more frustrating more often than not. neutral game is always the first line of defense in sf4, it's the reason why u rate akuma highly isn't it ? so just apply the same logic to whether they can get in easily on eryu and u realise it's often more dependant on read, or eryu/akuma players making a mistake to get in. eryu mobility is top 15, only 9 chars move faster than him forward walkspeed, and 7 better than him in backward walkspeed.

wiki.shoryuken.com/Ultra_Street_Fighter_IV/Universal_Abilities

 

[doomfanatiq]

Hard for me to say honestly. I do think Akuma is stronger in neutral but he got more buffs and was nerfed more. Evil Ryu wasn't really buffed in any interesting way but he didn't lose vortex either.

i normally put those complicated ones at 5-5, to be fair to both sides until longer sets are been played out between top players with their respective chars.

What's wrong with him being dependent on normals mid range? Most characters are and he has one of the best sets of normals in the game. He has top notch footsies along with Bison, Chun Li, Fei Long, Vega, etc. He has pushback so it's not a guaranteed punish on a dash straight and he beats out Evil Ryu's pokes in mid range. This is a problem match.

Evil Ryu did not have an advantageous matchup against Balrog. He just keeps him out very well. Very frustrating matchup. Balrog doesn't take any real risk in neutral game but he has lower damage like all poke characters. 6-4 Balrog. PR actually beat Diago with Balrog and I remember Daigo saying that Evil Ry u struggled in these matchups as opposed to Ryu and he's right.

there is nothing wrong with been dependant on normals in mid range, my point was that, normals and lp dash straight was not buffed significantly to be spam in mid range or neutral game. other special moves were buff, but they are still slow most of the time and highly punishable on reaction, go watch bonchan vs pr balrog and u understand. 

the risks rewards, eryu cr mk>fb = 150 dmg i think? balrog st hp, st hk, about 100 damage, who have the better risks rewards? u only put yourself in eryu perspective as a frustrating matchup, but have u thought about balrog's perspective? u really need to be fair to both sides. balrog normals are 8-9 frames for st hp, st hk, sweep. it's slower than eryus, it doesn't hit low, it's reward is lower than eryu cr mk>fb or fadc.

the only char that beats eryu in neutral game is claw, and that is because alot of times, cr mk> fb is unsafe on block which is punishable by claw cr mp > combo. that's why claw hold a 6-4 advantage over eryu because although eryu have a high damage, but vega keeps eryu out and make the risk rewards game of eryu cr mk> fb more balance.  others that beat eryu at neutral like bison/balrog, all suffers from the risk reward of contending with eryu's cr mk potential damage. 

Blanka was considered a hard matchup for Evil Ryu in 2012 because he had a way to get around his zoning and other tools. Shotos have a harder time with Blanka in general. Now he has even better neutral. 6-4 Blanka

nobody zone with fb vs blanka.... if u are talking about tools past fb, then ryu sagat would do even worse than eryu in this matchup ? the idea is to play the mid range game with eryu vs blanka effectively to deal damage, if u are reliant on fireballs against blanka, then u only have yourself to blame for the loss. honestly, mid range is also a part of neutral game, and mid range is where eryu excel in to be more specific, while ryu/sagat/juri excel in zoning long range game, eryu does better than them in mid range. 

as for blanka have other tools, doesn't eryu and other chars have other tools too ? the difference between eryu and other shotos is that, he have more effective mid range game than ryu and ken to deal with blanka cr hp. as for his gimmick hop, it can be countered on reaction with mashing of cr lp when u see the hop animation. this would greatly reduce the possibility of been hit by blanka's gimmick hop as he now have to contend in the mid range game as well with pokes. 

sometimes in analysing a matchup, u have to factor in risk reward game of neutral game, this is very important because for example in bison vs eryu case, st mk is very effective in keeping eryu out, however, it is only 70 damage, it means, eryu can make about 5 mistakes in footsies and get hit by bison st mk 350 damage, however, just one mistake from bison, eryu cr mk> fb fadc whiff punish = 300-400 damage depending on meters. that's why it's important to note the risks rewards because everybody makes mistakes. 

[The Big Daddy C-Master]

Feb 15, 2015 20:44:05 GMT -5 doomfanatiq said:

Feb 15, 2015 19:50:30 GMT -5 The Big Daddy C-Master said:

You're giving a lot of credit to the neutral game in SF4, lol. In reality the neutral is watered down with things like focus attacks and other gimmicky low risk high reward moves, not to mention option selects. Evil Ryu has high burst damage but it only comes from neutral and punishes. Makoto and Dudley are characters that make you guess wrong once they get in on you (like Takuma in Kof). They might have different mid range options, but their up close mixups are far superior to his and characters like Cammy have great frame advantage, and C. Viper has great mixups. One of the reasons it was always annoying debating Evil Ryu on EH was that people just said "high damage" without recognizing the kind of damage. Coin flip until you die is far more annoying than losing in neutral because you were just outread.

Also keep in mind that Makoto and Dudley have worse wakeup games. They also got buffs in neutral. They'd lose even worse without DWU because they have little defense against knockdown games like Evil Ryu's and they don't really rely on knockdown setplay anyways.

i gave alot of credit to neutral game because that's how most high level matches play out, nobody is willing to take the risk in jumping in  or spam focus attacks as comparable to using neutral game tools to to beat opponents. 

focus attacks are unsafe and can be reacted with cr mk> tatsu, low risk high reward moves used to be vortex, but now other chars tools (or gimmicks as u call it) can shine now because vortex was nerf, not that vortex is gone. dudley, makoto can make players pay heavily once they get in, but eryu does make opponents pay too when he get in. it's not like eryu is lacking in the close range offensive tools to deal damage.

makoto dudley doesn't rely on knockdown setplays, but as i mentioned their neutral game didn't get better significantly, honestly, just try and use dudley and makoto to get in on eryu/ryu/akuma/ken, i promise it's much more frustrating more often than not. neutral game is always the first line of defense in sf4, it's the reason why u rate akuma highly isn't it ? so just apply the same logic to whether they can get in easily on eryu and u realise it's often more dependant on read, or eryu/akuma players making a mistake to get in. eryu mobility is top 15, only 9 chars move faster than him forward walkspeed, and 7 better than him in backward walkspeed.

wiki.shoryuken.com/Ultra_Street_Fighter_IV/Universal_Abilities

 

Many high level matches start in neutral and end up in a variety of situations depending on the matchup. Zoners want to keep you out, as do keepaway opponents. Rushdown characters want to get in.

Focus attack is bad for the neutral game especially with the weakened pokes because it rewards fishing (counter hit crumple). The watered down pressure game with mechanics like crouch teching also play a role.

Characters like Dudley, Makoto, and Viper don't get high level Chun Li footsies because they have high damage and strong mixups. To give them everything would be too overpowering. They basically make you die if they get in on you. It's only fair they have to work harder to get in.

You can react on focus with cr mk into tatsu, but you also do a risky move that way if I don't focus and bait you out. Now you are open for punishment.

You can argue they haven't been given significant changes. I happen to disagree. Many characters got all kinds of buffs. I mean why is it that if Evil Ryu gets a frame off of a move it's no big deal, but other characters being able to special cancel far pokes or getting faster walkspeed isn't a big deal? Those are huge changes.

Akuma is top tier because he excels at everything, including neutral. If neutral was all it took to make a character strong, then why aren't Bison, Chun, Vega, etc always top tier in every game? There's more to it than that.

[The Big Daddy C-Master]

Feb 15, 2015 19:37:42 GMT -5 doomfanatiq said:

there is nothing wrong with been dependant on normals in mid range, my point was that, normals and lp dash straight was not buffed significantly to be spam in mid range or neutral game. other special moves were buff, but they are still slow most of the time and highly punishable on reaction, go watch bonchan vs pr balrog and u understand. 

the risks rewards, eryu cr mk>fb = 150 dmg i think? balrog st hp, st hk, about 100 damage, who have the better risks rewards? u only put yourself in eryu perspective as a frustrating matchup, but have u thought about balrog's perspective? u really need to be fair to both sides. balrog normals are 8-9 frames for st hp, st hk, sweep. it's slower than eryus, it doesn't hit low, it's reward is lower than eryu cr mk>fb or fadc.

the only char that beats eryu in neutral game is claw, and that is because alot of times, cr mk> fb is unsafe on block which is punishable by claw cr mp > combo. that's why claw hold a 6-4 advantage over eryu because although eryu have a high damage, but vega keeps eryu out and make the risk rewards game of eryu cr mk> fb more balance.  others that beat eryu at neutral like bison/balrog, all suffers from the risk reward of contending with eryu's cr mk potential damage. 

Why would Balrog need a move to spam it in mid range to be good against Evil Ryu? His normals are already spammy enough, making his special harder to punish is just even better.  This is what I mean about bias here. You can clearly see that Balrog was buffed and Evil Ryu was nerfed and now you're going to say that Evil Ryu has an easier time in this matchup? Evil Ryu has always struggled against people who can keep him out effectively.

No his cr mk fireball doesn't do 150 damage, only 120.  You added 25% more damage.  I don't know man I'm not trying to be mean but I feel you just have a hyped up view of the character. You just keep using this argument of cr mk-> fireball into 400 damage like it just automatically wins all matches. Now you're saying the only character that gives him trouble in mid range is Claw? Seriously?
Chun Li is easy to deal with in mid range?
Ryu is easy to deal with in Mid range?
Fei Long is easy to deal with in mid range?
Bison is easy to deal with in mid range?
Akuma is easy to deal with in mid range?
Sakura is easier to deal with in mid range?

Also I don't believe Claw is the only person who punishes cr mk fireball.

There are many characters who control space better than Evil Ryu in neutral and to deny it is just being ridiculous.  If Evil Ryu was so guaranteed to win with why doesn't everybody just pick him and win everything?  Even the best players like Sako and Daigo have a skippy track record at best.  That's because while he has high damage he requires very precise spacing on his normals and high execution consistently.  You can't afford to drop them because he has lower health and you will be killed on punishes.  It's not as easy as cr mk fireball everything.

 Do you seriously think Balrog has worse normals than Evil Ryu too? Have you seen the range and hitboxes on his moves compared to the hurtboxes? Evil Ryu's cr mk has a huge hurtbox that's active for several frames allowing him to be stuffed. Balrog has very strong normals and can sit at a distance and play on a life lead. Plus he has a stupid jab too.

Only bad players can't keep Evil Ryu from just carlessly using his cr mk-fireball. Every single character in the game has a way to stuff that normal and keep him from using it. So no your argument of "Cr mk-> 400- damage autowin" doesn't work. Btw Daigo even said these matchups are harder for Evil Ryu. Balrog does lower damage but his neutral game is far better and he has better normals overall. It's not even close.  You can even jump over cr. mk and punish it (unlike Ryu's) since the total frame count is so long.

Feb 15, 2015 19:37:42 GMT -5 doomfanatiq said:

nobody zone with fb vs blanka.... if u are talking about tools past fb, then ryu sagat would do even worse than eryu in this matchup ? the idea is to play the mid range game with eryu vs blanka effectively to deal damage, if u are reliant on fireballs against blanka, then u only have yourself to blame for the loss. honestly, mid range is also a part of neutral game, and mid range is where eryu excel in to be more specific, while ryu/sagat/juri excel in zoning long range game, eryu does better than them in mid range. 

as for blanka have other tools, doesn't eryu and other chars have other tools too ? the difference between eryu and other shotos is that, he have more effective mid range game than ryu and ken to deal with blanka cr hp. as for his gimmick hop, it can be countered on reaction with mashing of cr lp when u see the hop animation. this would greatly reduce the possibility of been hit by blanka's gimmick hop as he now have to contend in the mid range game as well with pokes. 

sometimes in analysing a matchup, u have to factor in risk reward game of neutral game, this is very important because for example in bison vs eryu case, st mk is very effective in keeping eryu out, however, it is only 70 damage, it means, eryu can make about 5 mistakes in footsies and get hit by bison st mk 350 damage, however, just one mistake from bison, eryu cr mk> fb fadc whiff punish = 300-400 damage depending on meters. that's why it's important to note the risks rewards because everybody makes mistakes. 

Blanka is a tougher matchup for Evil Ryu because he shuts down a lot of options for shotos.

Secondly Ryu is not worse at neutral than Evil Ryu. He does lower damage but his normals are better.  He has better projectiles too. So how is he weaker there?
Ken has faster startup on his cr mk. Ken has great mixup tools and a kara throw with a step kick.

You say this but you're not looking at all of the factors. Bison has much safer and easier pressure off of his normals and require little thought and execution to use. Yes he does lower damage, but he controls the mid range game better and has better footsies in general. Evil Ryu does higher damage but requires higher execution with more precise spacing. Just because he hits an opponent doesn't mean he's guaranteed huge damage. Hell Sako drops them all of the time. Sako of all people.

If your entire argument for all of his matchups getting easier despite his opponents being buffed and the fact that he wasn't is just "cr mk 400 damage autowin" I'm not going to bother with this 40 times.  I'm sorry but I'm feeling exhausted now from doing it.

Blanka was buffed and Balrog was buffed, therefore Evil Ryu has to work harder in those matches. Period. He no longer has the knockdown game against them and they also have better defense due to delayed wakeup on top of other buffs. How in the world are the matches easier for Evil Ryu? Cr. Mk 400 damage existed in 2011, and Balrog, Bison, and Blanka are not vortex monsters.

[doomfanatiq]

Many high level matches start in neutral and end up in a variety of situations depending on the matchup. Zoners want to keep you out, as do keepaway opponents. Rushdown characters want to get in.



Focus attack is bad for the neutral game especially with the weakened pokes because it rewards fishing (counter hit crumple). The watered down pressure game with mechanics like crouch teching also play a role.



Characters like Dudley, Makoto, and Viper don't get high level Chun Li footsies because they have high damage and strong mixups. To give them everything would be too overpowering. They basically make you die if they get in on you. It's only fair they have to work harder to get in.



You can react on focus with cr mk into tatsu, but you also do a risky move that way if I don't focus and bait you out. Now you are open for punishment.



You can argue they haven't been given significant changes. I happen to disagree. Many characters got all kinds of buffs. I mean why is it that if Evil Ryu gets a frame off of a move it's no big deal, but other characters being able to special cancel far pokes or getting faster walkspeed isn't a big deal? Those are huge changes.



Akuma is top tier because he excels at everything, including neutral. If neutral was all it took to make a character strong, then why aren't Bison, Chun, Vega, etc always top tier in every game? There's more to it than that.

ya, after scoring knowdown, chars who excel in other forms of offensive games will have an advantage. but before scoring a knockdown, eryu have advantage, just as sagat/ryu those who excel in zoning would have the advantage in zoning opponents out before been at a disadvantage been knockdown. 

akuma have everything, but eryu does have his own tools too, he doesn't have vortex, he have 50/50 ambiguous high damage potential on knockdown, he excel in mid range game, he excel in close range frame traps damage. so that's also why he is considered good. bison/chun/vega doesn't excel in a rush down offensive game such as akuma/yun/eryu, however they do have the mid range tools to keep opponents out to balance it off.


the only thing u can say about eryu is, his zoning game is weak as compared to sagat ryu juri, however neutral game involve zoning and mid range tools. he have fireballs, not a great zoning tool but still a decent zoning tool since having it is better than chars who doesn't have it, he have good conversion mid range tools for damage, it's not OP, but a great tool to deal damage. he have close range frame traps and mix up hop kicks to deal decent-high damage depending on meters. 

[doomfanatiq]

Why would Balrog need a move to spam it in mid range to be good against Evil Ryu? His normals are already spammy enough, making his special harder to punish is just even better. This is what I mean about bias here. You can clearly see that Balrog was buffed and Evil Ryu was nerfed and now you're going to say that Evil Ryu has an easier time in this matchup? Evil Ryu has always struggled against people who can keep him out effectively.



No his cr mk fireball doesn't do 150 damage, only 120. You added 25% more damage. I don't know man I'm not trying to be mean but I feel you just have a hyped up view of the character. You just keep using this argument of cr mk-> fireball into 400 damage like it just automatically wins all matches. Now you're saying the only character that gives him trouble in mid range is Claw? Seriously?

Chun Li is easy to deal with in mid range?

Ryu is easy to deal with in Mid range?

Fei Long is easy to deal with in mid range?

Bison is easy to deal with in mid range?

Akuma is easy to deal with in mid range?

Sakura is easier to deal with in mid range?



Also I don't believe Claw is the only person who punishes cr mk fireball.



There are many characters who control space better than Evil Ryu in neutral and to deny it is just being ridiculous. If Evil Ryu was so guaranteed to win with why doesn't everybody just pick him and win everything? Even the best players like Sako and Daigo have a skippy track record at best. That's because while he has high damage he requires very precise spacing on his normals and high execution consistently. You can't afford to drop them because he has lower health and you will be killed on punishes. It's not as easy as cr mk fireball everything.



Do you seriously think Balrog has worse normals than Evil Ryu too? Have you seen the range and hitboxes on his moves compared to the hurtboxes? Evil Ryu's cr mk has a huge hurtbox that's active for several frames allowing him to be stuffed. Balrog has very strong normals and can sit at a distance and play on a life lead. Plus he has a stupid jab too.



Only bad players can't keep Evil Ryu from just carlessly using his cr mk-fireball. Every single character in the game has a way to stuff that normal and keep him from using it. So no your argument of "Cr mk-> 400- damage autowin" doesn't work. Btw Daigo even said these matchups are harder for Evil Ryu. Balrog does lower damage but his neutral game is far better and he has better normals overall. It's not even close. You can even jump over cr. mk and punish it (unlike Ryu's) since the total frame count is so long.

why are u ignoring the risk reward game as i mentioned, if balrog slower normals are spammy enough, then isn't eryu cr mk more spammy accordingly to your logic ? of course there are chars who control space better, but u need to factor in mobility and risk rewards game.... 

eryu fadc combos from neutral game is not auto pilot win, which is why it's not OP, it's not even braindead as spammy as ken cr mk 4 frames, but the point is his cr mk have a far hitbox, and it can be converted into higher damage unlike bison, balrog's pokes. 

are xian, luffy, pr rog, kazunoko bad players who cannot keep daigo from carelessly using his cr mk? the point is, eryu have a greater margin for error because of risk reward in the neutral game, which is why the japanese think he is good. 

Blanka is a tougher matchup for Evil Ryu because he shuts down a lot of options for shotos.



Secondly Ryu is not worse at neutral than Evil Ryu. He does lower damage but his normals are better. He has better projectiles too. So how is he weaker there?

Ken has faster startup on his cr mk. Ken has great mixup tools and a kara throw with a step kick.



You say this but you're not looking at all of the factors. Bison has much safer and easier pressure off of his normals and require little thought and execution to use. Yes he does lower damage, but he controls the mid range game better and has better footsies in general. Evil Ryu does higher damage but requires higher execution with more precise spacing. Just because he hits an opponent doesn't mean he's guaranteed huge damage. Hell Sako drops them all of the time. Sako of all people.



If your entire argument for all of his matchups getting easier despite his opponents being buffed and the fact that he wasn't is just "cr mk 400 damage autowin" I'm not going to bother with this 40 times. I'm sorry but I'm feeling exhausted now from doing it.



Blanka was buffed and Balrog was buffed, therefore Evil Ryu has to work harder in those matches. Period. He no longer has the knockdown game against them and they also have better defense due to delayed wakeup on top of other buffs. How in the world are the matches easier for Evil Ryu? Cr. Mk 400 damage existed in 2011, and Balrog, Bison, and Blanka are not vortex monsters.

ryu have a debatable neutral as compared to eryu because his is faster, but less potential damage, while eryu is slower but higher potential damage. but the point is, u cannot zone good blanka with fireballs at long range to win, u have to contend with blanka at the mid range game, which i never said ryu loses in. this is why i think shotos and sagat does well vs blanka, because he cannot convert much damage in mid range, blanka excel in close range frame traps and his gameplan is exactly the same as claw,bison, chunli, get a life lead ? seat on it and bait more mistakes from  shotos because of his unique tools in avoiding fireballs. 

blanka buff, balrog buff, but are their neutral game buff significantly to contend with the likes of ken/ryu/eryu/akuma in neutral game? the simple answer is no, they still have a hard time playing mid range pokes vs those chars.  

so unless they suddenly gain buffs that give them advantage over eryu in mid range pokes, or new moves that are as effective as vortex and bypass dwu, it's highly unlikely that the buffs would affect the matchup so greatly that eryu suddenly loses all of them.

[The Big Daddy C-Master]

Feb 15, 2015 22:22:42 GMT -5 doomfanatiq said:

Many high level matches start in neutral and end up in a variety of situations depending on the matchup. Zoners want to keep you out, as do keepaway opponents. Rushdown characters want to get in.



Focus attack is bad for the neutral game especially with the weakened pokes because it rewards fishing (counter hit crumple). The watered down pressure game with mechanics like crouch teching also play a role.



Characters like Dudley, Makoto, and Viper don't get high level Chun Li footsies because they have high damage and strong mixups. To give them everything would be too overpowering. They basically make you die if they get in on you. It's only fair they have to work harder to get in.



You can react on focus with cr mk into tatsu, but you also do a risky move that way if I don't focus and bait you out. Now you are open for punishment.



You can argue they haven't been given significant changes. I happen to disagree. Many characters got all kinds of buffs. I mean why is it that if Evil Ryu gets a frame off of a move it's no big deal, but other characters being able to special cancel far pokes or getting faster walkspeed isn't a big deal? Those are huge changes.



Akuma is top tier because he excels at everything, including neutral. If neutral was all it took to make a character strong, then why aren't Bison, Chun, Vega, etc always top tier in every game? There's more to it than that.

ya, after scoring knowdown, chars who excel in other forms of offensive games will have an advantage. but before scoring a knockdown, eryu have advantage, just as sagat/ryu those who excel in zoning would have the advantage in zoning opponents out before been at a disadvantage been knockdown. 

akuma have everything, but eryu does have his own tools too, he doesn't have vortex, he have 50/50 ambiguous high damage potential on knockdown, he excel in mid range game, he excel in close range frame traps damage. so that's also why he is considered good. bison/chun/vega doesn't excel in a rush down offensive game such as akuma/yun/eryu, however they do have the mid range tools to keep opponents out to balance it off.


the only thing u can say about eryu is, his zoning game is weak as compared to sagat ryu juri, however neutral game involve zoning and mid range tools. he have fireballs, not a great zoning tool but still a decent zoning tool since having it is better than chars who doesn't have it, he have good conversion mid range tools for damage, it's not OP, but a great tool to deal damage. he have close range frame traps and mix up hop kicks to deal decent-high damage depending on meters. 

They don't need knockdown, their pressure and frame advantage, plus commmand grabs/comboable overheads is plenty. You keep saying "it's all about neutral" and it's not. Neutral is only one aspect of the matchup. If that's the case then Bison, Chun Li, Honda, Claw, and other neutral monsters would be top tier in every game.

You said I mentioned Akuma is strong because of neutral. I said Akuma's strong because he has stupid tools in every situation. This has nothing to do about how Evil Ryu is strong or not because I never mentioned that. That's a strawman.


You said that his cr mk is the strongest neutral tool in the game before.

[The Big Daddy C-Master]

Quick tip on quoting. Just use the "quote author= username" bar as the first bar and the "/quote" as the end tag. That way you get the name. You're quoting in an entirely different way somehow. Hmm... also you said that SF4 is your first street fighter game? You like it a whole lot (which is fine).

Feb 15, 2015 22:33:03 GMT -5 doomfanatiq said:

why are u ignoring the risk reward game as i mentioned, if balrog slower normals are spammy enough, then isn't eryu cr mk more spammy accordingly to your logic ? of course there are chars who control space better, but u need to factor in mobility and risk rewards game....

eryu fadc combos from neutral game is not auto pilot win, which is why it's not OP, it's not even braindead as spammy as ken cr mk 4 frames, but the point is his cr mk have a far hitbox, and it can be converted into higher damage unlike bison, balrog's pokes.

are xian, luffy, pr rog, kazunoko bad players who cannot keep daigo from carelessly using his cr mk? the point is, eryu have a greater margin for error because of risk reward in the neutral game, which is why the japanese think he is good.

Excuse me, you mentioned spam first when it came to his dash straight. Not me. I asked why he would need to spam it. You can't spam crouching medium kick because it's highly punishable. That's why most players can't use Evil Ryu and win and why even Sako/Daigo lose often with him even if they are the best. You have to have good reads.
You keep telling me things I already know. Yes he does higher damage, but his cr mk is slower and has a huge hurtbox in front of it with a low active frame count. It will be stuffed. That's why you can't just "spam it". Ryu has a spammy cr mk. If Evil Ryu's cr mk was spammy it would be broken.
I'm not ignoring anything . You keep saying cr mk fireball like it's all there is to the matchup and saying neutral is the only thing that matters. Then you say Kara demon is like Benimaru's infinite. You're greatly skewing risk/reward.

Feb 15, 2015 22:33:03 GMT -5 doomfanatiq said:

ryu have a debatable neutral as compared to eryu because his is faster, but less potential damage, while eryu is slower but higher potential damage. but the point is, u cannot zone good blanka with fireballs at long range to win, u have to contend with blanka at the mid range game, which i never said ryu loses in. this is why i think shotos and sagat does well vs blanka, because he cannot convert much damage in mid range, blanka excel in close range frame traps and his gameplan is exactly the same as claw,bison, chunli, get a life lead ? seat on it and bait more mistakes from shotos because of his unique tools in avoiding fireballs.

blanka buff, balrog buff, but are their neutral game buff significantly to contend with the likes of ken/ryu/eryu/akuma in neutral game? the simple answer is no, they still have a hard time playing mid range pokes vs those chars.

so unless they suddenly gain buffs that give them advantage over eryu in mid range pokes, or new moves that are as effective as vortex and bypass dwu, it's highly unlikely that the buffs would affect the matchup so greatly that eryu suddenly loses all of them.

Blanka has never been weak in mid range. Charge characters pretty much always have strong normals anyways. Never thought they had bad normals.

...And this is proof you're ignoring me.

Where did I say Evil Ryu loses all matches? You're either strawmanning my argument or ignoring me. I said he works harder even if he *did* win. Do you understand the difference between working harder and losing? There is no doubt he works harder this time around.

You are wrong. Balrog has no problem playing neutral against shoto normals. Because his normals are much better with larger range and hitbox and a smaller proportionate hurtbox. Just like Chun Li, Claw, etc.
They do have an advantage in mid range pokes, they just have lower damage output. Just like poking characters *always* have. If Balrog did Evil Ryu damage he'd be broken. Their speed + normals would make them insane with that damage.
Why would they need to bypass DWU? Balrog and other characters benefit from it because their wakeup game is weak and their knockdown game is weak. Characters like Akuma and Evil Ryu have stronger wakeup games (dp, backdash, teleport) and stronger knockdown games (vortex, unblockables) so they are hurt by dwu, not helped by it. Especially when Evil Ryu has a tatsu sweep on most of the cast now.

Ryu's neutral is not debateable. It's better, but lower damage. His fireballs are better, his super is better in neutral, his tatsu is better against fireballs, his pokes are faster and harder to punish. Evil Ryu has higher damage and a better standing medium kick. Bing bang boom, done. Period.

[doomfanatiq]

lol was on a vacation and just came back. 

They don't need knockdown, their pressure and frame advantage, plus commmand grabs/comboable overheads is plenty. You keep saying "it's all about neutral" and it's not. Neutral is only one aspect of the matchup. If that's the case then Bison, Chun Li, Honda, Claw, and other neutral monsters would be top tier in every game.



You said I mentioned Akuma is strong because of neutral. I said Akuma's strong because he has stupid tools in every situation. This has nothing to do about how Evil Ryu is strong or not because I never mentioned that. That's a strawman.





You said that his cr mk is the strongest neutral tool in the game before.



Read more: thacmaster.proboards.com/thread/2149/meter-management-fighting-games?page=3#ixzz3SWMyHvGV

i never said blanka those chars thrive on knockdown lol, my point was that blanka mid range game is not as strong as shotos because of conversion off hit confirm. the risk rewards means greater margin of error for shotos. 

it's all about neutral until u get a knockdown or something to pressure opponents, neutral is the first line of defense. this is why claw, bison chunli, honda are good until they make a mistake in footsies and get knockdown, and they cannot afford as many mistakes as eryu which was the point because of risks rewards, they are not top tier because they didn't have eryu pressure game mixes up, and damage conversion off hit confirm in neutral game. which u keep ignoring. 

[doomfanatiq]

Excuse me, you mentioned spam first when it came to his dash straight. Not me. I asked why he would need to spam it. You can't spam crouching medium kick because it's highly punishable. That's why most players can't use Evil Ryu and win and why even Sako/Daigo lose often with him even if they are the best. You have to have good reads.

You keep telling me things I already know. Yes he does higher damage, but his cr mk is slower and has a huge hurtbox in front of it with a low active frame count. It will be stuffed. That's why you can't just "spam it". Ryu has a spammy cr mk. If Evil Ryu's cr mk was spammy it would be broken.

I'm not ignoring anything . You keep saying cr mk fireball like it's all there is to the matchup and saying neutral is the only thing that matters. Then you say Kara demon is like Benimaru's infinite. You're greatly skewing risk/reward.

the point was that dash straight not as spammy as safe pokes, and that it requires charge, and it is unsafe at some range -3, cr mk only risk is getting whiff punish, it's not punishable on  block, dash straight can be whiff punish and punished on block. sako/daigo losing some game proves that eryu doesn't walk over those chars that retards think eryu is unquestionable number 1, and a good reminder to us that the game is balance. 

i keep telling u stuffs that u know, because ultra is a more balance game that focus on neutral, and it is time to rethink about how good eryu's neutral game is because he have the highest damage conversion. there are many chars with very good pokes such as blanka, bison vega balrog, but as i said, the risk reward means greater margin of error of eryu which u cannot refute. 

neutral is not all that matters, i have already mention eryu stil possess other good tools such as mixes up on knockdown, kara throws, frame traps into high damage, ambiguous 50/50 of potential damage 300-500 depending on meters, blanka claw bison doesn't have such tools, their game plan are less versatile because they need to seat on a lifelead and zone opponents out with their far pokes.

Blanka has never been weak in mid range. Charge characters pretty much always have strong normals anyways. Never thought they had bad normals.



...And this is proof you're ignoring me.



Where did I say Evil Ryu loses all matches? You're either strawmanning my argument or ignoring me. I said he works harder even if he *did* win. Do you understand the difference between working harder and losing? There is no doubt he works harder this time around.



You are wrong. Balrog has no problem playing neutral against shoto normals. Because his normals are much better with larger range and hitbox and a smaller proportionate hurtbox. Just like Chun Li, Claw, etc.

They do have an advantage in mid range pokes, they just have lower damage output. Just like poking characters *always* have. If Balrog did Evil Ryu damage he'd be broken. Their speed + normals would make them insane with that damage.

Why would they need to bypass DWU? Balrog and other characters benefit from it because their wakeup game is weak and their knockdown game is weak. Characters like Akuma and Evil Ryu have stronger wakeup games (dp, backdash, teleport) and stronger knockdown games (vortex, unblockables) so they are hurt by dwu, not helped by it. Especially when Evil Ryu has a tatsu sweep on most of the cast now.



Ryu's neutral is not debateable. It's better, but lower damage. His fireballs are better, his super is better in neutral, his tatsu is better against fireballs, his pokes are faster and harder to punish. Evil Ryu has higher damage and a better standing medium kick. Bing bang boom, done. Period.

please note, i never said blanka is weak in mid range game, what i meant was that he is weaker than shotos in mid range game because of risk rewards. 

where did i say he's not working harder this time around, i keep agreeing with that but my point was that it doesn't magically make him lose in some matchups he should be winning because the buffs to some chars are not significant enough. 

charge chars normally have a further pokes than shotos, however as i said, they cannot convert much damage off their pokes which is why shotos have greater margin for error because of cr mk> fb fadc. 

that is only your opinion it's not debatable, u have to look at the overall in my opinion and not just that it is faster, then by your logic ken have the best neutral game because he have 4 frame cr mk ? gosh that is silly and short sighted to only base on speed of the move.

[The Big Daddy C-Master]

Where did you go?

DWU has no direct effect on neutral, zoning, or rushdown. It simply weakens oki. This allows characters who are weak in defending against this to survive it better, and it weakens characters ability to pressure it better. That's it. The only thing that would affect neutral is the characters buffs/nerfs or system changes like red focus.

If the game is more about neutral than neutral focused characters would be top tier, however they are not. Bison is not bad on wakeup, he has the best wakeup in the whole game right alongside Akuma. Adding DWU did nothing for Evil Ryu but take away options he had. How did Chun Li vs Evil Ryu become better for Evil Ryu? How is the game more neutral focused from Chun Li's perspective?

Who are these characters who were giving Evil Ryu trouble on wakeup outside of the obvious top tiers already mentioned? Otherwise he's not stronger.

Those buffs do amount to a lot. Especially when characters which as you said "are in trouble if they make a mistake" now have much stronger wakeup so that's not an issue anymore, they've become more threatening and take longer to kill and they can sit on a lifelead more.

Saying that Evil Ryu is stronger than them at neutral control is unadulterated fallacy. His neutral is not better than theirs it is more rewarding and only by playing theory fighter can you hype him up to have the best footsies out of anybody else. Vortexes have nothing to do with neutral anyways so if he's that strong now he would have been that strong then.

No Ken's normal isn't better because he doesn't have the active frames or the hitbox that Ryu has. Ken's cr mk isn't better at all, it's faster, but not better. Ken's neutral game also has step kick and his overhead kick mixed with his Kara throw. My point was not about Ken but Evil Ryu.

It isn't really debateable. Ryu has better mid range tools, but as a tradeoff he has less damage. You just want to focus on one part of Evil Ryu and say that it's the only thing that matters, which is damage, but ignore everything else. Charge characters have better normals, better active frames, better speed, reach, and recovery combined with a fast walk speed and good throw game. That's why their neutral is overall stronger. Otherwise why pick them?

Based on your argument I could say that Chun Li is the best because you can play her perfectly with well spaced pokes and keep the opponent out the whole game but it's not likely to happen. Chun Li does well against many high damage characters specifically by keeping them out so they can't mount their offense.

Characters like Juri benefit from DWU because she has a weak wakeup and a wake oki game. Evil Ryu gains no benefit from him and it hurts them.

If you admit that Evil Ryu works harder than before, then how on earth can he be stronger now than he was if he has to work harder to win? Especially to super top tier like everyone else says.