Post by The Big Daddy C-Master on Jun 30, 2015 8:33:59 GMT -5
One thing I was discussing in another thread is how much fluff fighting games have. I mean they give you all these meters, supers, ultras, buttons, and other things, and it seems like you end up with less somehow. Like you have a roundabout way of getting less results. Here's a post from the SFV thread.
I agree, 3s had alot of useless moves, useless super arts and so on for many characters. Off the top of my head, Oro's filler moves are: Cr. Jab, Cr. Roundhouse, Neutral Throw, Jump in Jab, Specials like Oni Yanma, etc.
This is what I mean. SF gives you 6 buttons, but how many do you actually use? For instance with Ryu, 95% of the time you'll be using his crouching nomrals because they're so much better. Better hitbox, better body profile, cancellable, great priority, etc. There's usually no reason to use a standing normal unless it's in very specific situations, and jumping? Forget about it, you can't jump in SF.
SF isn't the only culprit of this. Many games have added a ton of gimmicks to be "modern" and appeal to the audiences. Kof has tons of different bars and utilities in KOf XIII, but it also has much lower damage in that game with weaker normals and specials, forcing you to use long combos for damage. This aspect I didn't like. Why not make the damage higher and reward more fundamentals *and* combos? If a cl hp did like 15% damage to your opponent, they wouldn't jump as recklessly if your anti air normals were strong. But when they do a measly 3% to 7% damage, then the opponent gets a much better reward for jumping around, especially when he has meter and can convert it into a death combo.
One of the major defenses for SF4's Ultra system was "If I fall behind it's hard to make a comeback because the damage is low." Well if you had higher base damage you wouldn't need stupid gimmicks like Ultra. SF2 didn't need a revenge meter, and although they added supers, it was mostly in how you played that led to a comeback.
What about EX moves? When you have stronger metered moves, you often have to make them worth using by giving characters weaker specials. Just look at the specials in SF2 compared to SF4, and you'll see many of them have longer start up times, worse recovery, or do worse damage, or have worse invincibility frames. Some say this was done to appease newbs, and I think it was with fireballs, although you did get FADC. To me making the specials better would have been better than adding EX moves. Same with Kof XII as some of them are just bullshit (Ex hangetsuzan, ex roll). Balancing out specials without ex moves would have been better, but then again they removed a lot of moves from the cast so ex moves were a way of giving them something back. I preferred when they had more specials without ex moves.
This is one of the reasons I like Virtua Fighter. It's no gimmicks, no silliness, just straight up play. You'll notice the damage is higher because they have none of the meter gimmicks you see in other games, so rounds clear out fast, but you're on to the next one and the pacing is great. No beating someone in SF4 and then they get an ultra that goes through fireballs so you now have to slow down your play. No death combo HD's to worry about or X factor nonsense where you have to be constantly worried. Speaking of custom combos that's the largest example of weaker normals, because games that have custom combos often have very low damage on normal attacks aka Alpha 3.
That said I do love CvS2 quite a bit because it had a TON of options and every groove served a purpose and was unique so it felt like you were getting more than just some gimmick style with weaker moves to compensate. Sure some were better than others, but that's one system I'd love to see again. Giving different styles that offer something different works really well if it is balanced.
Thoughts?
This is what I mean. SF gives you 6 buttons, but how many do you actually use? For instance with Ryu, 95% of the time you'll be using his crouching nomrals because they're so much better. Better hitbox, better body profile, cancellable, great priority, etc. There's usually no reason to use a standing normal unless it's in very specific situations, and jumping? Forget about it, you can't jump in SF.
SF isn't the only culprit of this. Many games have added a ton of gimmicks to be "modern" and appeal to the audiences. Kof has tons of different bars and utilities in KOf XIII, but it also has much lower damage in that game with weaker normals and specials, forcing you to use long combos for damage. This aspect I didn't like. Why not make the damage higher and reward more fundamentals *and* combos? If a cl hp did like 15% damage to your opponent, they wouldn't jump as recklessly if your anti air normals were strong. But when they do a measly 3% to 7% damage, then the opponent gets a much better reward for jumping around, especially when he has meter and can convert it into a death combo.
One of the major defenses for SF4's Ultra system was "If I fall behind it's hard to make a comeback because the damage is low." Well if you had higher base damage you wouldn't need stupid gimmicks like Ultra. SF2 didn't need a revenge meter, and although they added supers, it was mostly in how you played that led to a comeback.
What about EX moves? When you have stronger metered moves, you often have to make them worth using by giving characters weaker specials. Just look at the specials in SF2 compared to SF4, and you'll see many of them have longer start up times, worse recovery, or do worse damage, or have worse invincibility frames. Some say this was done to appease newbs, and I think it was with fireballs, although you did get FADC. To me making the specials better would have been better than adding EX moves. Same with Kof XII as some of them are just bullshit (Ex hangetsuzan, ex roll). Balancing out specials without ex moves would have been better, but then again they removed a lot of moves from the cast so ex moves were a way of giving them something back. I preferred when they had more specials without ex moves.
This is one of the reasons I like Virtua Fighter. It's no gimmicks, no silliness, just straight up play. You'll notice the damage is higher because they have none of the meter gimmicks you see in other games, so rounds clear out fast, but you're on to the next one and the pacing is great. No beating someone in SF4 and then they get an ultra that goes through fireballs so you now have to slow down your play. No death combo HD's to worry about or X factor nonsense where you have to be constantly worried. Speaking of custom combos that's the largest example of weaker normals, because games that have custom combos often have very low damage on normal attacks aka Alpha 3.
That said I do love CvS2 quite a bit because it had a TON of options and every groove served a purpose and was unique so it felt like you were getting more than just some gimmick style with weaker moves to compensate. Sure some were better than others, but that's one system I'd love to see again. Giving different styles that offer something different works really well if it is balanced.
Thoughts?
