Fighting skill tier's......

[violent2dope]

admin said:

Karate Kid should definitely be Cosmic tier, the walking plot device he is.

Better than the flying plot device that is Superman.

This is just going by pure skill, right?

[The Big Daddy C-Master]

Lol I suppose, anybody got any good pics of him?

[Magic attack]

Cosmic tier:
Mantis, Thanos, Champion, Gamora, Karate Kid

Uber tier:
Stick, Ogun

Top tier:
Captain Americe, Wolverine, Batman, Taskmaster, Connor Hawke,

Second tier: (Master Martial Artists)
Daredevil, Nightwing, Blackwidow, Cable, Oliver Queen

Third Tier: (Highly Skilled Martial Artists)
US Agent.

Fourth Tier: (Trained Martial Artist)
Storm, Tarantula, Thing, Cyclops

Accomplished Fighter: (Little formal training/Some Skill)
Luke Cage, Spider-Man




There is the list as it is right now, if someone believes that Thanos should be in top tier that is fine. All I ask for is proof...

[The Big Daddy C-Master]

I wonder what level that darker Spiderman would be in, he had a comic about him recently.

[Magic attack]

Like the one from the movie? Probably at the same level as regular Spidey. He just seemed to cut loose more and not hold back.

[The Big Daddy C-Master]

I meant the very recent comic, sort of like a what if, when he accidentally kills someone. He starts training and his precog and stuff increases. I'd say he's at least a notch higher.

Also I don't know as much about Thanos as you, but what makes him a Cosmic Tier in your opinion.

[Magic attack]

Ok, I read that What If, it was a decent read. I would possibly put him on the Top Tier. Spidey had his pre-cog working at top level, so I don't see many, if any, of the other Top Tiers beating him in a fight. The only possibility being Wolverine. If Wolverine goes Beserker, and can somehow disable the Pre-Cog that might give James enough of an edge to win. But with only one comic to go by, it is just a thought.





As far as Thanos goes, we would need a few displays of his fighting ability.

We have-

1. Thanos vs Champion of the Universe. Now some may accuse Champion of being everyone's whipping boy, and that may be true given his limited amount of showings. But lets think about this a little bit, if Champion were the 10^th best fighter in the universe that is quite a feat. But if the 10^th best fighter in the universe is only ever shown fighting the top 9 fighters, how many wins does anyone expect him to have?


I will continue later on.

[The Big Daddy C-Master]

shakezula said:

Ok, I read that What If, it was a decent read. I would possibly put him on the Top Tier. Spidey had his pre-cog working at top level, so I don't see many, if any, of the other Top Tiers beating him in a fight. The only possibility being Wolverine. If Wolverine goes Beserker, and can somehow disable the Pre-Cog that might give James enough of an edge to win. But with only one comic to go by, it is just a thought.





As far as Thanos goes, we would need a few displays of his fighting ability.

We have-

1. Thanos vs Champion of the Universe. Now some may accuse Champion of being everyone's whipping boy, and that may be true given his limited amount of showings. But lets think about this a little bit, if Champion were the 10^th best fighter in the universe that is quite a feat. But if the 10^th best fighter in the universe is only ever shown fighting the top 9 fighters, how many wins does anyone expect him to have?


I will continue later on.

I think Logan's healing would be his only savior and not for long.

But I'll wait on the Thanos thing.

[violent2dope]

Champion IS everyone's little bitchboy man...Thing gave him a fight, and She-Hulk outright beat him, Champ only shows Boxing skill, which Thing IMO outclassed him in as well, but Champ's much higher stats gave him the win, like Thanos, Thanos is a Transcendant, with his most devoted fans saying he's Skyfather, he has physical strength that surpasses most, and can amp it, compared to She-Hulk who is below Thanos in every way who beat Champ, if Champ beat Thanos, it would be PIS. Spectre would beat Karate Kid in a H2H fight, but he is not as skilled, his stats are just over the top.

[The Big Daddy C-Master]

violent2dope said:

Champion IS everyone's little bitchboy man...Thing gave him a fight, and She-Hulk outright beat him, Champ only shows Boxing skill, which Thing IMO outclassed him in as well, but Champ's much higher stats gave him the win, like Thanos, Thanos is a Transcendant, with his most devoted fans saying he's Skyfather, he has physical strength that surpasses most, and can amp it, compared to She-Hulk who is below Thanos in every way who beat Champ, if Champ beat Thanos, it would be PIS. Spectre would beat Karate Kid in a H2H fight, but he is not as skilled, his stats are just over the top.

Well Spiderman beats many of the MA's if he's tryng, but that doesn't make him a more skilled fighter, just more effective. It would be like a bear killing a martial artist in the real world.

[violent2dope]

admin said:

violent2dope said:

Champion IS everyone's little bitchboy man...Thing gave him a fight, and She-Hulk outright beat him, Champ only shows Boxing skill, which Thing IMO outclassed him in as well, but Champ's much higher stats gave him the win, like Thanos, Thanos is a Transcendant, with his most devoted fans saying he's Skyfather, he has physical strength that surpasses most, and can amp it, compared to She-Hulk who is below Thanos in every way who beat Champ, if Champ beat Thanos, it would be PIS. Spectre would beat Karate Kid in a H2H fight, but he is not as skilled, his stats are just over the top.

Well Spiderman beats many of the MA's if he's tryng, but that doesn't make him a more skilled fighter, just more effective. It would be like a bear killing a martial artist in the real world.

Of course he does, Spiderman has reflexes bordering on Precog, Class 25 strength and superspeed. Like how Thanos has high level Class 100 strength, advanced speed and reflexes, and some fighting skill, but enough to put him in the ranks of Karate Kid? No way.

[Magic attack]

Couple of questions before I begin...


1. Is this going to turn into a KMC style debate where everything someone doesn't like immediately turns into a PIS/CIS debacle?

2. Are we only allowing characters with absolutely no losses to be in the Cosmic Tier?

3. Suppose character 1 is in Uber Tier, and character 2 is in Third Tier and character 2 wins the fight... How do we handle that?

A. Do we label it as PIS/CIS and forget it
B. Move the two characters up/down to compensate
C. Just accept that sometimes a character can overcome the odds and defeat a physically superior foe.

[The Big Daddy C-Master]

I thought it was based on actual skill and not physical superiority. That was my impression. Spiderman beats many higher tier characters in a straight fight, but assuming they had nothing but their skill and equal everything else, he'd most likely lose. That was what I thought.

[Magic attack]

admin said:

I thought it was based on actual skill and not physical superiority. That was my impression. Spiderman beats many higher tier characters in a straight fight, but assuming they had nothing but their skill and equal everything else, he'd most likely lose. That was what I thought.

I thought that as well, but it seems that instances of handicapped matches are being brought into question to decide where a character ranks on the list. I will amend.

Couple of questions before I begin...


1. Is this going to turn into a KMC style debate where everything someone doesn't like immediately turns into a PIS/CIS debacle?

2. Are we only allowing characters with absolutely no losses to be in the Cosmic Tier?

3. Suppose character 1 is in Uber Tier, and character 2 is in Third Tier and character 2 wins the fight (assuming that the 2nd character is of an equal or lower power-level)... How do we handle that?

A. Do we label it as PIS/CIS and forget it
B. Move the two characters up/down to compensate
C. Just accept that sometimes a character can overcome the odds and defeat a physically superior foe.

[Magic attack]

admin said:

I think Logan's healing would be his only savior and not for long.

But I'll wait on the Thanos thing.

Peter would probably end the fight very quickly, now that I think about it. He would already know that it would be senseless to fight Logan on Wolverine's terms- a physical confrontation. Peter knows that Wolverine can absorb a tremendous amount of damage. So Peter is going to BFR, or incapacitate him almost immediately.

[The Big Daddy C-Master]

shakezula said:

admin said:

I thought it was based on actual skill and not physical superiority. That was my impression. Spiderman beats many higher tier characters in a straight fight, but assuming they had nothing but their skill and equal everything else, he'd most likely lose. That was what I thought.

I thought that as well, but it seems that instances of handicapped matches are being brought into question to decide where a character ranks on the list. I will amend.

Couple of questions before I begin...


1. Is this going to turn into a KMC style debate where everything someone doesn't like immediately turns into a PIS/CIS debacle?

2. Are we only allowing characters with absolutely no losses to be in the Cosmic Tier?

3. Suppose character 1 is in Uber Tier, and character 2 is in Third Tier and character 2 wins the fight (assuming that the 2nd character is of an equal or lower power-level)... How do we handle that?

A. Do we label it as PIS/CIS and forget it
B. Move the two characters up/down to compensate
C. Just accept that sometimes a character can overcome the odds and defeat a physically superior foe.

I guess Cosmic Tier in my opinion would be a character who has fighting skills beyond what mere human knowledge would compensate for. Some sort of ability otherwise that can't be learned by ordinary training. I wouldn't say it's so much the losses in this case, because the best trained fighter can lose to a normal on in certain situations, but more of the character's background. Some characters have a harder time proving that than others because they don't use their abilities because they don't really need to since they are so powerful. Which I guess is the problem in this case.

[violent2dope]

shakezula said:

Couple of questions before I begin...


1. Is this going to turn into a KMC style debate where everything someone doesn't like immediately turns into a PIS/CIS debacle?

2. Are we only allowing characters with absolutely no losses to be in the Cosmic Tier?

3. Suppose character 1 is in Uber Tier, and character 2 is in Third Tier and character 2 wins the fight... How do we handle that?

A. Do we label it as PIS/CIS and forget it
B. Move the two characters up/down to compensate
C. Just accept that sometimes a character can overcome the odds and defeat a physically superior foe.

1. When did I say anything was PIS?

2. No, Cosmic tiers should be people like Karate Kid with a ridiculous amount of skill that no human should have logically been able to aquire, he knows all the Martial Arts in the universe.

3. Well, lemme put it this way, what is the entire Cosmic tier we have listed right now were to lose ina H2H fight with Classic Beyonder? Would that mean he is more skilled than all of them? No, Beyonder simply has much higher stats than all of them.

[Magic attack]

violent2dope said:

1. When did I say anything was PIS?

violent2dope said:

if Champ beat Thanos, it would be PIS.

Now I understand that it is not very likely for Tryco to defeat Thanos, it is possible.

violent2dope said:

2. No, Cosmic tiers should be people like Karate Kid with a ridiculous amount of skill that no human should have logically been able to aquire, he knows all the Martial Arts in the universe.

Ok, so then the Cosmic Tier can have people on the list that do have losses to lesser opponents. Because if the list wasn't able to have characters with losses, it would be a very short list.

violent2dope said:

3. Well, lemme put it this way, what is the entire Cosmic tier we have listed right now were to lose ina H2H fight with Classic Beyonder? Would that mean he is more skilled than all of them? No, Beyonder simply has much higher stats than all of them.

I had already amended the third question to reflect that sort of answer. Here was the amended question-


3. Suppose character 1 is in Uber Tier, and character 2 is in Third Tier and character 2 wins the fight (assuming that the 2nd character is of an equal or lower power-level)... How do we handle that?

A. Do we label it as PIS/CIS and forget it
B. Move the two characters up/down to compensate
C. Just accept that sometimes a character can overcome the odds and defeat a physically superior foe.

[Magic attack]

admin said:

shakezula said:

I thought that as well, but it seems that instances of handicapped matches are being brought into question to decide where a character ranks on the list. I will amend.

Couple of questions before I begin...


1. Is this going to turn into a KMC style debate where everything someone doesn't like immediately turns into a PIS/CIS debacle?

2. Are we only allowing characters with absolutely no losses to be in the Cosmic Tier?

3. Suppose character 1 is in Uber Tier, and character 2 is in Third Tier and character 2 wins the fight (assuming that the 2nd character is of an equal or lower power-level)... How do we handle that?

A. Do we label it as PIS/CIS and forget it
B. Move the two characters up/down to compensate
C. Just accept that sometimes a character can overcome the odds and defeat a physically superior foe.

I guess Cosmic Tier in my opinion would be a character who has fighting skills beyond what mere human knowledge would compensate for. Some sort of ability otherwise that can't be learned by ordinary training. I wouldn't say it's so much the losses in this case, because the best trained fighter can lose to a normal on in certain situations, but more of the character's background. Some characters have a harder time proving that than others because they don't use their abilities because they don't really need to since they are so powerful. Which I guess is the problem in this case.

I agree. Someone like Champion has been riddled with poor plots and "jobbing" to other characters for years. Champion's background is filled with his acquiring of various fighting skill and defeating opponents throughout the years. But since he doesn't have his own comic, we will never see any of that.

[The Big Daddy C-Master]

So is Thanos a cosmic tier based on that definition?

[violent2dope]

shakezula said:

violent2dope said:

1. When did I say anything was PIS?

Now I understand that it is not very likely for Tryco to defeat Thanos, it is possible.




Ok, so then the Cosmic Tier can have people on the list that do have losses to lesser opponents. Because if the list wasn't able to have characters with losses, it would be a very short list.

violent2dope said:

3. Well, lemme put it this way, what is the entire Cosmic tier we have listed right now were to lose ina H2H fight with Classic Beyonder? Would that mean he is more skilled than all of them? No, Beyonder simply has much higher stats than all of them.

I had already amended the third question to reflect that sort of answer. Here was the amended question-


3. Suppose character 1 is in Uber Tier, and character 2 is in Third Tier and character 2 wins the fight (assuming that the 2nd character is of an equal or lower power-level)... How do we handle that?

A. Do we label it as PIS/CIS and forget it
B. Move the two characters up/down to compensate
C. Just accept that sometimes a character can overcome the odds and defeat a physically superior foe.

1. Champ was beaten physically by She Hulk, and Thanos and Champ were having a all out battle, Thanos has ample evidence to suggest he is much more powerful than Champ.

2. Yeah, losses, but this should go by pure skill. What considerable Karate Kid esque skill has Thanos shown?

3. Depends, the circumstances, what advantages one may of had, all that crap,

[Magic attack]

violent2dope said:

1. Champ was beaten physically by She Hulk, and Thanos and Champ were having a all out battle, Thanos has ample evidence to suggest he is much more powerful than Champ.

A. She-Hulk was amped and Champ was de-powered during their battle, the first time they fought She-Hulk would have died had the fight not been stopped.

B. Champ had the Power-Gem against Thanos, so Champ had an unlimited amount of energy to potentially tap into. Which is why Thanos was using a hit and run style of attack. Thanos knew trying to slug it out would be futile.

violent2dope said:

2. Yeah, losses, but this should go by pure skill. What considerable Karate Kid esque skill has Thanos shown?

There are a couple of things wrong with thinking like this-

So is Karate Kid the bar we are using to measure all of the other character's against? Thanos and Karate Kid employ to different fighting styles. I have never seen Karate Kid use any sort of energy projection, although he may have I don't know.

But I agree on the losses part. I just don't understand why you brought up Champ's losses, if that is how you feel.

violent2dope said:

3. Depends, the circumstances, what advantages one may of had, all that crap,

So let's see-

Champ was beaten by an amped She-Hulk, while he de-powered himself.

Champ was beaten by Thanos, who is a more skilled combatant. But Champ was in a mindless rage, brought on I would argue by the Power Gem.

[Magic attack]

admin said:

So is Thanos a cosmic tier based on that definition?

If we go by what we have seen in actual comics, probably not. But if we use the history of the character then yes. I have already stated that character's with limited showings are tough to represent. The only time that Thanos really fought a superior foe, with as much skill and more powerful than he, was when he fought his Doppleganger. Thanos won, but that would really be the only instance.

Every other fight that has been against more powerful foes, he has done well.

Thor w/ Power Gem
Odin (Thanos was still standing at the end, albeit wobbly)



If we assume that Gamora IS on the Cosmic Tier, then we can use two things-

Thanos trained her, she didn't get her training from any manuals... she didn't goto classes every friday night after school... Thanos trained her.

Thanos also had a little skirmish at one point with her. They fought to a draw. Some people think that Gamora won, as she hit Thanos with a nerve strike to end the fight. Thanos appeared to be paralyzed, but even Gamora realized that Thanos being paralyzed was a ruse. Gamora knew that Thanos was just baiting her and that he was not paralyzed.


If people need scans I will provide them later.

[violent2dope]

shakezula said:

violent2dope said:

1. Champ was beaten physically by She Hulk, and Thanos and Champ were having a all out battle, Thanos has ample evidence to suggest he is much more powerful than Champ.

A. She-Hulk was amped and Champ was de-powered during their battle, the first time they fought She-Hulk would have died had the fight not been stopped.

B. Champ had the Power-Gem against Thanos, so Champ had an unlimited amount of energy to potentially tap into. Which is why Thanos was using a hit and run style of attack. Thanos knew trying to slug it out would be futile.






There are a couple of things wrong with thinking like this-

So is Karate Kid the bar we are using to measure all of the other character's against? Thanos and Karate Kid employ to different fighting styles. I have never seen Karate Kid use any sort of energy projection, although he may have I don't know.

But I agree on the losses part. I just don't understand why you brought up Champ's losses, if that is how you feel.

violent2dope said:

3. Depends, the circumstances, what advantages one may of had, all that crap,

So let's see-

Champ was beaten by an amped She-Hulk, while he de-powered himself.

Champ was beaten by Thanos, who is a more skilled combatant. But Champ was in a mindless rage, brought on I would argue by the Power Gem.

1.

A. Amped? I thought she just received t3H skills, training, and improved her strength? It has been a long time since I read it(and I didn't really care for it either).

B. For the same reasons I don't remember this part.

2. Well, Karate Kid IS the best example of a cosmic tier, it's kinda like using Odin as the bar to measure Skyfather or Silver Surfer to measure High Herald. Energy projection should not be counted under this fighting tier, that is a power, I though we were going by pure skill.

Idk...he lost to She Hulk...and to Thanos while wielding the Power Gem...that's kinda embarassing.

[The Big Daddy C-Master]

I wouldn't mind seeing some scans if it wouldn't bother you too much. Just even to see them.