What determines cheapness in video games?

[The Big Daddy C-Master]

This is a hotly debated topic, and I'm from the oldschool, playing on the hardest difficulty and whatnot, but there are alot of people out there that think things like Roll-Cancelling in CvsSNK2 and other gimmicks are simply not cheap.

So what determines cheapness in gaming?

[Psyquis52]

Personally (where fighting games are concerned) any boss that has abilities far beyond the norm are 100% cheap. For instance: In the Last Blade 2 the boss has a weak slash move that covers the entire front of him and cancels 90% of all you moves. That's not an exageration. Then his specials will kill you in 2 blows.
I think a fighting game boss should be more like M Bison from Street Fighter 2 old school. He's not really more powerful than anybody else but the computer controls him with total lethality. The only way to beat him is to be better than him. It's not a matter of getting lucky or pulling off the super combo that takes him down, it's about maintaining a cool calm head and understanding which move you should use and when to use it.

The boss in most SNK fighting games is so unbelievably difficult because his moves hurt more, are easier to connect with and most of them have a weak move that is unbeatable and cancels all your moves. THAT'S Cheap personified.

[The Big Daddy C-Master]

psyquis52 said:

Personally (where fighting games are concerned) any boss that has abilities far beyond the norm are 100% cheap. For instance: In the Last Blade 2 the boss has a weak slash move that covers the entire front of him and cancels 90% of all you moves. That's not an exageration. Then his specials will kill you in 2 blows.
I think a fighting game boss should be more like M Bison from Street Fighter 2 old school. He's not really more powerful than anybody else but the computer controls him with total lethality. The only way to beat him is to be better than him. It's not a matter of getting lucky or pulling off the super combo that takes him down, it's about maintaining a cool calm head and understanding which move you should use and when to use it.

The boss in most SNK fighting games is so unbelievably difficult because his moves hurt more, are easier to connect with and most of them have a weak move that is unbeatable and cancels all your moves. THAT'S Cheap personified.

I very much agree, however I feel that old school SF was very cheap because the comp did 3x or more damage than you did, and they could do charge moves without actually charging, that and the telepathy.

Shooting games are harder to be cheap in, how do you get cheap in a shooting game as PC? Well they always know your position on a map and fire at that position on the map, making them crack shots until the A.I is properly done.

But what about competitive gaming, it was more of what I was hoping to get to, people say that there's "no such thing as cheapness" when you're trying to win, but I strongly disagree.

[Psyquis52]

In the FPS world Halo is a good starting point on this whole cheapness business.

I could be playing on a mediocre level. I would have beaten the game twice and I go online and fight some @#$% who found high ground and a sniper rifle and I can't get anywhere. What kind of a @#$%-upped system is that?

How about RPG's? What type of cheapness have you encountered there?

As far as shooters are concerned I would say that nearly the entire Gradius series is cheap. R-type is survivable but Gradius is ridiculous.
However, when you see someone that's stunning at Gradius you can't stop watching. It's really amazing.

[The Big Daddy C-Master]

psyquis52 said:

In the FPS world Halo is a good starting point on this whole cheapness business.

I could be playing on a mediocre level. I would have beaten the game twice and I go online and fight some @#$% who found high ground and a sniper rifle and I can't get anywhere. What kind of a @#$%-upped system is that?

How about RPG's? What type of cheapness have you encountered there?

As far as shooters are concerned I would say that nearly the entire Gradius series is cheap. R-type is survivable but Gradius is ridiculous.
However, when you see someone that's stunning at Gradius you can't stop watching. It's really amazing.

Yea, people definitely get cheap on shooters. My cousin is like that, he finds the cheapest means possible to win, always. Play Capcom vs. SNK2, and he always gets Bison on K-groove and blocks all day. Or what about Roll-cancelling on the PS2 version?

RPG's are a bit different if you're playing the comp, but there are always glitches, especially in big games like Baldur's Gate like I often see. But against people there are cheap tactics especially, like freezing time over and over again, that's just too cheap. But RPG characters get overpowered eventually anyways.

[darthrevan]

What gets me mad in a fighting game is when a person does the same exact move over and over again, and that person wins because of it. I think stuff like that is cheap.

[The Big Daddy C-Master]

darthrevan said:

What gets me mad in a fighting game is when a person does the same exact move over and over again, and that person wins because of it. I think stuff like that is cheap.

Yea, it depends on how cheap the moves are too, if they are both skilled, it only says that one person needs to rely on said tactic to win, which defines cheapness.

[Psyquis52]

Okay. Let's take M. Bison's sliding low fierce in the original SF.

That move could be used repeatedly on some characters and there's practically no way out. At least for a little while it could keep going forever.

[The Big Daddy C-Master]

psyquis52 said:

Okay. Let's take M. Bison's sliding low fierce in the original SF.

That move could be used repeatedly on some characters and there's practically no way out. At least for a little while it could keep going forever.

Can I ask you how you feel about roll cancelling? Is that cheap? Or cheating since it wasn't even intended to be in the game, and therefore removed?

[Psyquis52]

Roll cancelling doesn't exist in my book. I refuse to play with people that use it and I refuse to listen to their arguements in favor of it.

[The Big Daddy C-Master]

psyquis52 said:

Roll cancelling doesn't exist in my book. I refuse to play with people that use it and I refuse to listen to their arguements in favor of it.

"It's totally fair to be invincible over and over, you're just mad because you can't do it..."

It's sad people rely on these tactics to win. Really is.

[Psyquis52]

If my opponent doesn't stand a chance against said tactics then I change them. Survival of the fittest is just an excuse to be an ass.

[The Big Daddy C-Master]

psyquis52 said:

If my opponent doesn't stand a chance against said tactics then I change them. Survival of the fittest is just an excuse to be an ass.

Exactly, I'm like that in all competitions though, I do stuff to have fun, I'm not just about winning, even though I almost always do. I'm in it for the fun, using cheapness over and over in such a manner takes the fun out.

Now it's different if I'm playing SF3 and I go, "I'm going to use Gill, I know he's cheap but it's for fun."

If you know you're going to win, why keep rubbing the same move in. Worst thing about cheapness is to beat the cheap one, you usually have to be cheap, which results in them calling you cheap.

[Psyquis52]

I have no idea what you're saying.














When I won the SF tourney in Jackson I played cheap. I won however I could but that was different then. I wasn't just playing for fun.

[The Big Daddy C-Master]

psyquis52 said:

I have no idea what you're saying.














When I won the SF tourney in Jackson I played cheap. I won however I could but that was different then. I wasn't just playing for fun.

Well that's playing to win and that's why I avoid those. You *have* to use top tier and whatnot it seems. I don't find the people too hard either though, but overcompetitiveness takes the love out of anything. Unless it's women maybe...

[Psyquis52]

I didn't speak either. When I was fighting I was quiet, before I was all cheerful and unconfident. It was an act though.

[The Big Daddy C-Master]

psyquis52 said:

I didn't speak either. When I was fighting I was quiet, before I was all cheerful and unconfident. It was an act though.

So you were really ashamed of yourself?

[Psyquis52]

No. I was trying to get on the nerves of every hot-head and show-off in the place by using every trick in the book.

[The Big Daddy C-Master]

psyquis52 said:

No. I was trying to get on the nerves of every hot-head and show-off in the place by using every trick in the book.

You bastard!

[Psyquis52]

I know but those damn geeks deserved it.

[The Big Daddy C-Master]

psyquis52 said:

I know but those damn geeks deserved it.

Were they that bad? Geeks can be bigger jerks than jocks sometimes. I used to play Yu Gi Oh, and there was this guy several years older than me who was arrogant and so childish it was hard to be his friend because he overreacted whenever he lost.

[Psyquis52]

Yes. They were. The worst one of all was this jock who thought that he was God's gift to fighting games. He destroyed some poor fellow with incredibly cheap tactics. I played him the round after and beat him perfect both matches.

What's good for the goose is good for the gander.

[The Big Daddy C-Master]

psyquis52 said:

Yes. They were. The worst one of all was this jock who thought that he was God's gift to fighting games. He destroyed some poor fellow with incredibly cheap tactics. I played him the round after and beat him perfect both matches.

What's good for the goose is good for the gander.

Yuck, he sounds like the RC type.

[Psyquis52]

Alright, you're going to have to clear that one up for me.

What's an RC type?

[The Big Daddy C-Master]

Roll Cancelling type, lol. People on KMC were talking about how it made the game "better" at higher levels of play.

By using a broken tactic?

[Psyquis52]

Roll cancelling doesn't improve gameplay. It destroys it.
I would say that the best way to handle a fighting game...


Wait a minute.

[The Big Daddy C-Master]

psyquis52 said:

Roll cancelling doesn't improve gameplay. It destroys it.
I would say that the best way to handle a fighting game...


Wait a minute.

Wait, you made alot of nonsense.

[Psyquis52]

Wait a minute.

[The Big Daddy C-Master]

[JACK-2]

Something that waters down gameplay in favor of an easy advantage is cheap in my opinion. Some people consider Crouch Cancels in alpha 3 to be cheap. I don't wanna get into that topic, but I'm not really to good in CVS2. Parry's cheapen Third Strike, though.

-Atom Ant Out
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