Street Fighter 4! Yippie!!

[warmunger]

She beat the tar out of Honda. I think the guy that had him was a noob tho.

[Yoshi]

Nah, I don't think the E. Honda player was a noob since he came close to winning in the first round.

I know for a fact that the Sakura player is a well-known expert named Justin Wong.

[warmunger]

Sumday, I will B nown 4 my unrivaled skills as a SF master. I am really good.

[Yoshi]

Did you ever participate in a tournament?

[The Big Daddy C-Master]

With anything I do I find tourneys overrated. Not in the sense that they aren't fun. (They can be, it just depends on the attitude of the people, I never do anything "to win".), but that you don't always find the "best of the best" at them. Sure, there are good people, great people, but that doesn't mean that nobody's better. I find the best people in the oddest places, whether it be fighting, gaming, or card games.

[JACK-2]

Well said C-master

I used to post alot in Shoryuken which was the hub for all things tournament related. While being a great place to find character strategy's and fighting game info the place is unfortunately rather Elitist in terms of mentality. I think tourneys are great for testing skills, but I think the problem is when people begin to think they are superior to you as a human being because they can beat you in a video game. Also, your right about finding the "Best of the Best". . .people tend to assume because they are known for playing a game well. . .That there isn't anyone out there in remote places of the world that are on that same level or even better. At the end of the day the only to gauge someones skill is to play them, Talk is cheap.

[Yoshi]

Both of you make alot of sense.

I don't like it when people are given the title "Best (insert name of video game here) Player in the World" because it makes them extremely cocky. The only way someone could really claim that title is if they played against every single (insert name of video game here) player in the world, which is very unlikely. Literally, they're just the best players out of the ones who participated in the tournament. I'm pretty sure that there are a bunch of SFIII experts in the U.S., but they don't participate in tournaments because of personal or logical reasons. I'm a casual gamer at heart, so you won't find me in any tournaments unless I really feel like participating. Unfortunately, I won't be able to go since there are never tournaments near my area, unless they're casual tournaments hosted at my school.

Another thing I don't like about tournaments are tier listings. I'm don't pay attention to them, but people are always bringing them up when discussing character advantages and disadvantages. I'm sure both of you know what tiers are, and I have to say that they're extremely bias. They're biased because they're based solely on tournaments results. One good example of a bad tier list is SSBB (Super Smash Bros. Brawl). I'm not sure if you two are into that franchise, but it's a very fun game. Certain characters have a high advantage over most (i.e. Metaknight), while other characters aren't that good (i.e. Ganondorf). Basically, the main reason why certain character are so high on the tier list is because they're always being used in tournaments. Metaknight is constantly being used in tournaments, which is one of the reasons why he's top-tier. Ganondorf is barely used in tournaments, which is why he's bottom-tier. The only way that a character would move up on the tier list is if people win tournaments with that characters. If more people would participate in tournaments with a certain character, then it'll increase the chances of that character winning the tournament.

[The Big Daddy C-Master]

Dec 16, 2008 0:01:16 GMT -5 JACK-2 said:

Well said C-master

I used to post alot in Shoryuken which was the hub for all things tournament related. While being a great place to find character strategy's and fighting game info the place is unfortunately rather Elitist in terms of mentality. I think tourneys are great for testing skills, but I think the problem is when people begin to think they are superior to you as a human being because they can beat you in a video game. Also, your right about finding the "Best of the Best". . .people tend to assume because they are known for playing a game well. . .That there isn't anyone out there in remote places of the world that are on that same level or even better. At the end of the day the only to gauge someones skill is to play them, Talk is cheap.

Like I was saying to someone somewhere else, people will always look for something to make them feel superior. It's that person that's the problem. You see it in modeling, card games, fighting, etc. Those people are just out there to win and they don't care who they hurt, they think they have "more of a right" to be there, when they don't realize it's the average gamer that keeps that stuff alive. Or funds the existence period. It almost kills it for me, I can't stand arrogant assholes like that who treat others poorly whether they won or lost.

[JACK-2]

Hey Yoshi & C-master

Dec 16, 2008 0:56:43 GMT -5 Yoshi said:

Both of you make alot of sense.

Another thing I don't like about tournaments are tier listings. I'm don't pay attention to them, but people are always bringing them up when discussing character advantages and disadvantages. I'm sure both of you know what tiers are, and I have to say that they're extremely bias. They're biased because they're based solely on tournaments results. One good example of a bad tier list is SSBB (Super Smash Bros. Brawl). I'm not sure if you two are into that franchise, but it's a very fun game. Certain characters have a high advantage over most (i.e. Metaknight), while other characters aren't that good (i.e. Ganondorf). Basically, the main reason why certain character are so high on the tier list is because they're always being used in tournaments. Metaknight is constantly being used in tournaments, which is one of the reasons why he's top-tier. Ganondorf is barely used in tournaments, which is why he's bottom-tier. The only way that a character would move up on the tier list is if people win tournaments with that characters. If more people would participate in tournaments with a certain character, then it'll increase the chances of that character winning the tournament.

I think people have the wrong idea about tiers, maybe because the amount of people who misconstrue there meaning or simply overemphasize them when at times they aren't what counts. Essentially what Tiers are is ranking on characters that are easier to win with, every game essentially has this because many times unbeknownst to developers certain characters have certain powerful characteristics which are not noticed until hard core gamers find them. People who simple stick to top tiers A.K.A. Tier "Whores" [pardon my language] they simply care about winning so much that they flood whatever tourney they are in with a specific character. Many tourney's become extremely monotonous due to people picking the same characters *Cough* Chun li*Cough* over again, because those people for the most part only care about winning so they pick the top tier only. At the end of the day what distinguishes a skilled player isn't who he picks, because anyone can pick anyone they want. It's how well they use a character and granted many characters might be harder to use due to either being weaker or having less useful tools on a high level. It isn't a character for the most part that counts it's the human. At the hands of a good player low tier characters can compete. The only time character becomes a problem is when you have over powered characters like God-Tiers [Magneto, Storm, And Sentinel of MVC 2 fame], many times Boss characters [Gill, Onslaught, and many KOF] though there are exceptions [ Karnov and Young Geese are playable] or even worst Upper God Tier which are unbeatable at the hands of another human player [Ivan Ooze and Karai are the only ones so far ]And should be banned anyway:

Like I was saying to someone somewhere else, people will always look for something to make them feel superior. It's that person that's the problem. You see it in modeling, card games, fighting, etc. Those people are just out there to win and they don't care who they hurt, they think they have "more of a right" to be there, when they don't realize it's the average gamer that keeps that stuff alive. Or funds the existence period. It almost kills it for me, I can't stand arrogant assholes like that who treat others poorly whether they won or lost.

I dislike close minded people like that who believe they are superior because they have a certain success or they are popular and are under the public eye. The internet is fulled with so called "Guru's" or some internet master who thinks he knows everything. This appears in every subject I've seen so far. They assume that if they are at a certain status than that is the highest there is and no one can be higher otherwise they would appear on the same stage as them to fight them. It's arrogance alright because what they don't know is that even if these people aren't in the public eye like them. . .That doesn't mean they want to be or that they aren't skilled enough.

[Yoshi]

Dec 16, 2008 16:59:11 GMT -5 JACK-2 said:

Hey Yoshi & C-master

Dec 16, 2008 0:56:43 GMT -5 Yoshi said:

Both of you make alot of sense.

Another thing I don't like about tournaments are tier listings. I'm don't pay attention to them, but people are always bringing them up when discussing character advantages and disadvantages. I'm sure both of you know what tiers are, and I have to say that they're extremely bias. They're biased because they're based solely on tournaments results. One good example of a bad tier list is SSBB (Super Smash Bros. Brawl). I'm not sure if you two are into that franchise, but it's a very fun game. Certain characters have a high advantage over most (i.e. Metaknight), while other characters aren't that good (i.e. Ganondorf). Basically, the main reason why certain character are so high on the tier list is because they're always being used in tournaments. Metaknight is constantly being used in tournaments, which is one of the reasons why he's top-tier. Ganondorf is barely used in tournaments, which is why he's bottom-tier. The only way that a character would move up on the tier list is if people win tournaments with that characters. If more people would participate in tournaments with a certain character, then it'll increase the chances of that character winning the tournament.

I think people have the wrong idea about tiers, maybe because the amount of people who misconstrue there meaning or simply overemphasize them when at times they aren't what counts. Essentially what Tiers are is ranking on characters that are easier to win with, every game essentially has this because many times unbeknownst to developers certain characters have certain powerful characteristics which are not noticed until hard core gamers find them. People who simple stick to top tiers A.K.A. Tier "Whores" [pardon my language] they simply care about winning so much that they flood whatever tourney they are in with a specific character. Many tourney's become extremely monotonous due to people picking the same characters *Cough* Chun li*Cough* over again, because those people for the most part only care about winning so they pick the top tier only. At the end of the day what distinguishes a skilled player isn't who he picks, because anyone can pick anyone they want. It's how well they use a character and granted many characters might be harder to use due to either being weaker or having less useful tools on a high level. It isn't a character for the most part that counts it's the human. At the hands of a good player low tier characters can compete. The only time character becomes a problem is when you have over powered characters like God-Tiers [Magneto, Storm, And Sentinel of MVC 2 fame], many times Boss characters [Gill, Onslaught, and many KOF] though there are exceptions [ Karnov and Young Geese are playable] or even worst Upper God Tier which are unbeatable at the hands of another human player [Ivan Ooze and Karai are the only ones so far ]And should be banned anyway:

What's up, Ashtar.

Yeah, I dislike people who only use top-tier characters just so they could have a high chance of winning a battle. It doesn't take much skill to win with a top tier character since they already have some advantages over the other fighters. Heck, it seems like most of the tournaments nowadays consist of top-tier characters just because some players don't have enough patience to perfect their skills with a low-tier character and just boost their chances of winning by using top-tier characters. Besides, it's much more impressive when someone's an expert with a low-tier character. I may not be the best Yoshi player in SSBB, but I'm still extremely good with him. Then again, I refuse to believe he's low-tier...

Dang, I didn't even know that Power Ranger game existed. I'm sure that the developers made Ivan broken on purpose because it's impossible for a character to be that broken by accident. That guy is nothing but a projectile spammer. Wow, and I thought Cinder from Killer Instinct was broken...

[The Big Daddy C-Master]

Dec 16, 2008 16:59:11 GMT -5 JACK-2 said:

Hey Yoshi & C-master

Dec 16, 2008 0:56:43 GMT -5 Yoshi said:

Both of you make alot of sense.

Another thing I don't like about tournaments are tier listings. I'm don't pay attention to them, but people are always bringing them up when discussing character advantages and disadvantages. I'm sure both of you know what tiers are, and I have to say that they're extremely bias. They're biased because they're based solely on tournaments results. One good example of a bad tier list is SSBB (Super Smash Bros. Brawl). I'm not sure if you two are into that franchise, but it's a very fun game. Certain characters have a high advantage over most (i.e. Metaknight), while other characters aren't that good (i.e. Ganondorf). Basically, the main reason why certain character are so high on the tier list is because they're always being used in tournaments. Metaknight is constantly being used in tournaments, which is one of the reasons why he's top-tier. Ganondorf is barely used in tournaments, which is why he's bottom-tier. The only way that a character would move up on the tier list is if people win tournaments with that characters. If more people would participate in tournaments with a certain character, then it'll increase the chances of that character winning the tournament.

I think people have the wrong idea about tiers, maybe because the amount of people who misconstrue there meaning or simply overemphasize them when at times they aren't what counts. Essentially what Tiers are is ranking on characters that are easier to win with, every game essentially has this because many times unbeknownst to developers certain characters have certain powerful characteristics which are not noticed until hard core gamers find them. People who simple stick to top tiers A.K.A. Tier "Whores" [pardon my language] they simply care about winning so much that they flood whatever tourney they are in with a specific character. Many tourney's become extremely monotonous due to people picking the same characters *Cough* Chun li*Cough* over again, because those people for the most part only care about winning so they pick the top tier only. At the end of the day what distinguishes a skilled player isn't who he picks, because anyone can pick anyone they want. It's how well they use a character and granted many characters might be harder to use due to either being weaker or having less useful tools on a high level. It isn't a character for the most part that counts it's the human. At the hands of a good player low tier characters can compete. The only time character becomes a problem is when you have over powered characters like God-Tiers [Magneto, Storm, And Sentinel of MVC 2 fame], many times Boss characters [Gill, Onslaught, and many KOF] though there are exceptions [ Karnov and Young Geese are playable] or even worst Upper God Tier which are unbeatable at the hands of another human player [Ivan Ooze and Karai are the only ones so far ]And should be banned anyway:

Like I was saying to someone somewhere else, people will always look for something to make them feel superior. It's that person that's the problem. You see it in modeling, card games, fighting, etc. Those people are just out there to win and they don't care who they hurt, they think they have "more of a right" to be there, when they don't realize it's the average gamer that keeps that stuff alive. Or funds the existence period. It almost kills it for me, I can't stand arrogant assholes like that who treat others poorly whether they won or lost.

I dislike close minded people like that who believe they are superior because they have a certain success or they are popular and are under the public eye. The internet is fulled with so called "Guru's" or some internet master who thinks he knows everything. This appears in every subject I've seen so far. They assume that if they are at a certain status than that is the highest there is and no one can be higher otherwise they would appear on the same stage as them to fight them. It's arrogance alright because what they don't know is that even if these people aren't in the public eye like them. . .That doesn't mean they want to be or that they aren't skilled enough.

Yea, tiers aren't intentional at all, they are just programming oversights. I just play to have fun. I find the best of the best don't do tournaments. Not to say that the people who do them aren't skilled, there are some skilled guys who are cool people. But the ones who are the best are the ones who just do something they love and want to continually take it to the next level. My cousin was really good at Capcom vs. SNK2, and I was much more skilled than he was. But he played to win, he got Bison and used really cheesy tactics (he does this in all games, turtling and stuff like that), I eventually got tired of it and just let him have it, then I used his tactics on him. He would probably do well in the tourney's playing like that, but that's just not me. I like to have fun. And don't get me started on Roll Canceling (I'm sure I'll catch some slack on that, but it IS cheap). Might be fun to use, but it's cheap. People who use it over and over just "to win" are being buttholes to me.

We made a thread on the "cheapness in games" here somewhere.

Dec 16, 2008 23:46:20 GMT -5 Yoshi said:

Dec 16, 2008 16:59:11 GMT -5 JACK-2 said:

Hey Yoshi & C-master




I think people have the wrong idea about tiers, maybe because the amount of people who misconstrue there meaning or simply overemphasize them when at times they aren't what counts. Essentially what Tiers are is ranking on characters that are easier to win with, every game essentially has this because many times unbeknownst to developers certain characters have certain powerful characteristics which are not noticed until hard core gamers find them. People who simple stick to top tiers A.K.A. Tier "Whores" [pardon my language] they simply care about winning so much that they flood whatever tourney they are in with a specific character. Many tourney's become extremely monotonous due to people picking the same characters *Cough* Chun li*Cough* over again, because those people for the most part only care about winning so they pick the top tier only. At the end of the day what distinguishes a skilled player isn't who he picks, because anyone can pick anyone they want. It's how well they use a character and granted many characters might be harder to use due to either being weaker or having less useful tools on a high level. It isn't a character for the most part that counts it's the human. At the hands of a good player low tier characters can compete. The only time character becomes a problem is when you have over powered characters like God-Tiers [Magneto, Storm, And Sentinel of MVC 2 fame], many times Boss characters [Gill, Onslaught, and many KOF] though there are exceptions [ Karnov and Young Geese are playable] or even worst Upper God Tier which are unbeatable at the hands of another human player [Ivan Ooze and Karai are the only ones so far ]And should be banned anyway:

What's up, Ashtar.

Yeah, I dislike people who only use top-tier characters just so they could have a high chance of winning a battle. It doesn't take much skill to win with a top tier character since they already have some advantages over the other fighters. Heck, it seems like most of the tournaments nowadays consist of top-tier characters just because some players don't have enough patience to perfect their skills with a low-tier character and just boost their chances of winning by using top-tier characters. Besides, it's much more impressive when someone's an expert with a low-tier character. I may not be the best Yoshi player in SSBB, but I'm still extremely good with him. Then again, I refuse to believe he's low-tier...

Dang, I didn't even know that Power Ranger game existed. I'm sure that the developers made Ivan broken on purpose because it's impossible for a character to be that broken by accident. That guy is nothing but a projectile spammer. Wow, and I thought Cinder from Killer Instinct was broken...

You thought Cinder was broken? He is easy to use I guess, but a Spinal Master is just horribly powerful, teleporting out of the air and everything.

[Yoshi]

Trust me, Cinder is the most broken character in Killer Instinct. I already knew that Cinder seemed like a broken character when I first played the game, but this video confirmed it.

[JACK-2]

Dec 16, 2008 23:46:20 GMT -5 Yoshi said:

What's up, Ashtar.

Yeah, I dislike people who only use top-tier characters just so they could have a high chance of winning a battle. It doesn't take much skill to win with a top tier character since they already have some advantages over the other fighters. Heck, it seems like most of the tournaments nowadays consist of top-tier characters just because some players don't have enough patience to perfect their skills with a low-tier character and just boost their chances of winning by using top-tier characters. Besides, it's much more impressive when someone's an expert with a low-tier character. I may not be the best Yoshi player in SSBB, but I'm still extremely good with him. Then again, I refuse to believe he's low-tier...

Don't get me wrong I think people should pick whoever they like when it comes to characters. However, I find it boring when people think the most important thing in a game is to win and they will do whatever it takes. I mean it's just a game, have fun. Like I said, low tier just means they are harder to use because they have less exploitable tools. Granted they may be very weak like Sean in 3s, but it shouldn't be too much of a big deal. . .Pick whoever you want.

Dec 16, 2008 23:46:20 GMT -5 Yoshi said:

Dang, I didn't even know that Power Ranger game existed. I'm sure that the developers made Ivan broken on purpose because it's impossible for a character to be that broken by accident. That guy is nothing but a projectile spammer. Wow, and I thought Cinder from Killer Instinct was broken...

They can be broken at times without the developers knowledge. But, I don't think that is the case with Ivan Ooze. ^___^;

Dec 17, 2008 12:56:37 GMT -5 The Big Daddy C-Master said:

Yea, tiers aren't intentional at all, they are just programming oversights. I just play to have fun. I find the best of the best don't do tournaments. Not to say that the people who do them aren't skilled, there are some skilled guys who are cool people. But the ones who are the best are the ones who just do something they love and want to continually take it to the next level. My cousin was really good at Capcom vs. SNK2, and I was much more skilled than he was. But he played to win, he got Bison and used really cheesy tactics (he does this in all games, turtling and stuff like that), I eventually got tired of it and just let him have it, then I used his tactics on him. He would probably do well in the tourney's playing like that, but that's just not me. I like to have fun. And don't get me started on Roll Canceling (I'm sure I'll catch some slack on that, but it IS cheap). Might be fun to use, but it's cheap. People who use it over and over just "to win" are being buttholes to me.

We made a thread on the "cheapness in games" here somewhere.

I agree partly, but there are characters who are programmed to be uber like boss characters. As for Roll cancel or other game glitches. . .This is difficulty subject. The thing is there are things that are cheap in games and have to be banned because they are too powerful. Hayate's cartwheel from DOA 3.1 is a great example of this. But, sometimes things are not cheap like some unblockables or infinites or sometimes they are cheap. It's up to the players to delegate what is what when they play. I hate when people bash others for calling something cheap because a tourney dictates otherwise. I think players have to decide how they will play. I don't think Turtling is cheap because it just means playing defensively and is just the opposite of Rush downs. Not to mention the mind games that are available with turtling make for a much deeper game to me. I play the best I can play while having fun. Sometimes when I'm winning against my friend, I'll offer him mercy rather than pressing the advantage. Though, I won't do that to anyone else, because I don't wanna hurt someones pride.

[Yoshi]

Dec 17, 2008 18:05:29 GMT -5 JACK-2 said:

Don't get me wrong I think people should pick whoever they like when it comes to characters. However, I find it boring when people think the most important thing in a game is to win and they will do whatever it takes. I mean it's just a game, have fun. Like I said, low tier just means they are harder to use because they have less exploitable tools. Granted they may be very weak like Sean in 3s, but it shouldn't be too much of a big deal. . .Pick whoever you want.


They can be broken at times without the developers knowledge. But, I don't think that is the case with Ivan Ooze. ^___^;

Yeah, some people take video games too seriously. I could never be competitive like that because I use video games as a stress reliever.

I'm sure the developers made Ivan broken on purpose. They shouldn't have made him playable, though.

[JACK-2]

Competitive gaming is very fun and it's great to see a game being played a t such a high level [Watch is why I watch match vids, Combo vids and no hurt runs]. I just hate when people who need an ego boost use that as an excuse to bash people who aren't as good as them in said games. Nothing wrong with being a die-hard player, but I do not see the need to be elitist about it. I mean it is just a game at the end of the day, even if it's your life's passion.

I don't mind Ooze being playable, I think it's cool to have playable bosses in games. Just ban him from tourneys for goodness sakes.

[The Big Daddy C-Master]

Wow, Cinder is bad. I guess I play the comp mostly who find ways to cheat out of everything, Spinal can get pretty cheesy too though, but he's for experts, there are loads of glitches on him.

As far as turtling, it is kinda cheesy but it isn't "bad", but this guy used Bison's annoying poking and every cheap tacitc he could. He does it in all games, or he'll get the cheesy characters in Timesplitters or something else and begin to camp, he's just not the person you play when you want to have a good time.

Ooze wasn't banned? There's a reason he's secret unlockable, lol. Ultimately what is cheese is up to that person. If you want to roll cancel with someone else, go ahead, but using it to punish another person who won't or can't is another story entirely.

[JACK-2]

I agree, that it's really up to others to delegate with each other on what they consider fair or unfair.

[Yoshi]

I got two questions:

1. What's roll cancelling? I just saw some videos of it, but I don't understand everything that's going on.

2. What's turtling? It sounds like a tactic in which someone blocks the majority of the match and fights at the right moments.

Dec 18, 2008 3:49:10 GMT -5 The Big Daddy C-Master said:

Wow, Cinder is bad. I guess I play the comp mostly who find ways to cheat out of everything, Spinal can get pretty cheesy too though, but he's for experts, there are loads of glitches on him.

Yeah, Cinder is very broken. I'm pretty sure his brokenness was one of the reasons why he didn't make the cut to Killer Instinct 2.

[The Big Daddy C-Master]

Dec 18, 2008 12:27:25 GMT -5 Yoshi said:

I got two questions:

1. What's roll cancelling? I just saw some videos of it, but I don't understand everything that's going on.

2. What's turtling? It sounds like a tactic in which someone blocks the majority of the match and fights at the right moments.

Dec 18, 2008 3:49:10 GMT -5 The Big Daddy C-Master said:

Wow, Cinder is bad. I guess I play the comp mostly who find ways to cheat out of everything, Spinal can get pretty cheesy too though, but he's for experts, there are loads of glitches on him.

Yeah, Cinder is very broken. I'm pretty sure his brokenness was one of the reasons why he didn't make the cut to Killer Instinct 2.

1. Roll canceling is present in the arcade version and PS2 version of Capcom vs. SNK2. It allows you to cancel a roll out into a move if done fast enough (which you have to be fast), and have a bunch of invincibility frames within your move. It is a programming oversight which was later fixed in other versions of the game. One thing about PC games is that they tend to be constantly updated. I still hate that cheap ass K-groove though.

Turtling is like Camping in a shooter, sitting around doing nothing waiting to strike. It's annoying and even broken depending on the game. I.e Eyedol could block high AND low at the same time. Eyedol was f un to play as though.

[Yoshi]

Oh, okay. I never encounter those tactics since I never played those games before.

*Gets the thread back on-topic*

I think it's nice that all the characters have an alternate outfit. Most of them have been wearing the same outfit ever since their first appearance, so it's good to change things up a little.

[The Big Daddy C-Master]

Dec 19, 2008 0:25:17 GMT -5 Yoshi said:

Oh, okay. I never encounter those tactics since I never played those games before.

*Gets the thread back on-topic*

I think it's nice that all the characters have an alternate outfit. Most of them have been wearing the same outfit ever since their first appearance, so it's good to change things up a little.

It's good to do something new and keep the classic just in case.

[Yoshi]

Of course. Rather than having simple palette swaps, it's better to have to characters wear completely different outfits.

[The Big Daddy C-Master]

Dec 19, 2008 13:28:09 GMT -5 Yoshi said:

Of course. Rather than having simple palette swaps, it's better to have to characters wear completely different outfits.

Yea, Palette swaps are way too 90's.

[Yoshi]

Yeah, I know.

In every single fighting game I played, I always used the character's original colors. If they have a alternate outfit that's completely different, then I might choose that instead.

[The Big Daddy C-Master]

Dec 21, 2008 2:17:08 GMT -5 Yoshi said:

Yeah, I know.

In every single fighting game I played, I always used the character's original colors. If they have a alternate outfit that's completely different, then I might choose that instead.

I usually tweaked them to what I liked, for example Sabrewulf is usually green, I chose him blue, or red sometimes.

[Dja Majista]

The tier system is a really interesting creature to me, and I'm of the opinion that the tourney method as yoshi mentioned is actually the best way to construct them.

Gamers have a way of just finding the best characters in a cast by sampling them all for just a little while. For SSB and SSBM, I was completely out of touch with the tourney world. But, with just a little sampling I found Marth (SSBM) and Kirby (SSB) to be my favorite characters because I had the most success with them. Guess what? Marth turned out to be high tier for his game and Kirby is top tier for his. I don't think that's a coincidence. Tourney results are the best statistic available for constructing a tier list, and they do it effectively.

But I agree that they are far from perfect. Tier lists have a major tendency to affect themselves over time rather than be affected by the game itself. An official tier list is created for the first time using tourney results, which come about by people using their own judgment in character selection, and the strongest survives. That said, the first sample is an excellent sample. But tier lists must be updated over time, as new exploits for characters are discovered on a regular basis. This is where the problem arises I think. By the first update of the tier list, many players have already decided on their characters based on the previous list, not based on their own judgment. As a result more and more gamers are allocated to the upper region of the tier list while the lower tiers grow sparse. What's simply happening is, because a tier list has already been released, characters in the low and bottom tiers who may or may not have some potential are rarely given a chance. That's where we see a bias.

But I think there is a counterbalance to this that actually makes the tier system work even after so many revisions. There are plenty of people, and I mean plenty, who play to win as low tier characters against a high tier character just to rub it in the persons that much more. Honestly that is really annoying to me. If you win you win; if you lose you lose. There is no "Oh, you only beat me because my character sucked" or "I get extra points because I beat your guy with a sucky character." No that's stupid. If you've got something to prove, play at the same tier as your opponent or better yet with the same character. Anyway that aside, there is something that happens when you consider this group of asshol-- I mean people. Basically what you have is players rising up who are pioneers for a certain character. Doesn't matter what tier the character is. If your the best at any character you're going to get attention, you're going to get followers, and you're going to get competitors. It works out that way every time. Link is a low tier character, but with Link masters like germ around, he still has plenty of people who are trying to get good at him and win with him in tournaments. That way you still have a formidable population of players trying to advance each character. That's how I think the low and bottom tier characters still manage to get ample representation even when using tourney results to make a tier list. Disagree if you like. This's just my opinion.

[The Big Daddy C-Master]

Dec 26, 2008 2:22:38 GMT -5 Dja Majista said:

The tier system is a really interesting creature to me, and I'm of the opinion that the tourney method as yoshi mentioned is actually the best way to construct them.

Gamers have a way of just finding the best characters in a cast by sampling them all for just a little while. For SSB and SSBM, I was completely out of touch with the tourney world. But, with just a little sampling I found Marth (SSBM) and Kirby (SSB) to be my favorite characters because I had the most success with them. Guess what? Marth turned out to be high tier for his game and Kirby is top tier for his. I don't think that's a coincidence. Tourney results are the best statistic available for constructing a tier list, and they do it effectively.

But I agree that they are far from perfect. Tier lists have a major tendency to affect themselves over time rather than be affected by the game itself. An official tier list is created for the first time using tourney results, which come about by people using their own judgment in character selection, and the strongest survives. That said, the first sample is an excellent sample. But tier lists must be updated over time, as new exploits for characters are discovered on a regular basis. This is where the problem arises I think. By the first update of the tier list, many players have already decided on their characters based on the previous list, not based on their own judgment. As a result more and more gamers are allocated to the upper region of the tier list while the lower tiers grow sparse. What's simply happening is, because a tier list has already been released, characters in the low and bottom tiers who may or may not have some potential are rarely given a chance. That's where we see a bias.

But I think there is a counterbalance to this that actually makes the tier system work even after so many revisions. There are plenty of people, and I mean plenty, who play to win as low tier characters against a high tier character just to rub it in the persons that much more. Honestly that is really annoying to me. If you win you win; if you lose you lose. There is no "Oh, you only beat me because my character sucked" or "I get extra points because I beat your guy with a sucky character." No that's stupid. If you've got something to prove, play at the same tier as your opponent or better yet with the same character. Anyway that aside, there is something that happens when you consider this group of asshol-- I mean people. Basically what you have is players rising up who are pioneers for a certain character. Doesn't matter what tier the character is. If your the best at any character you're going to get attention, you're going to get followers, and you're going to get competitors. It works out that way every time. Link is a low tier character, but with Link masters like germ around, he still has plenty of people who are trying to get good at him and win with him in tournaments. That way you still have a formidable population of players trying to advance each character. That's how I think the low and bottom tier characters still manage to get ample representation even when using tourney results to make a tier list. Disagree if you like. This's just my opinion.

I think that Yoshi was saying that tiers are unfair because people just get the characters that are used the most. And that is what you see, in card games and everything else, people get "the best" and they want to win, whether they know what they're doing or not.

I don't see where the "ample" representation is coming from. People who play in tournaments 9.9 out of 10 play to win and to win only, and won't genereally play with a lower tier characters, it's always the same damned thing over and over, with card games too. It's the same old comboes, the same old characters, and the same old exploits. I have to say I actually commend someone for using a "weaker" character and getting far with them for the sake of challenge, true that nobody should be boastful about it (unless it's the general joking around that people do, but they shouldn't take it beyond that). Some people just like the challenge, I always try to play in some different way, especially when I've had the game for a long time. Tournaments you see the same 3 or 4 characters over and over again. People on supported sites go by these characters like they are the law of the land.

Also there is nothing wrong with playing a "high tier" character if they are what you like. I play who I like and that's it, I don't even pay attention to "tiers" other than for knowledge. SSB I played Kirby, he was top tier (though pikachu seems to have an overall worse reputation for some cancels he can do), and in Melee I played with... Kirby. Brawl was Kirby and Metaknight. In YuGiOh I had a nigh unbeatable dragon and flip effect deck even though those were considered "obsolete". So it's not about "tiers' or even "winning" for me, it's about having fun, and that's when you do your best anyways. The top contenders in anything do what they love to do and try to improve themselves, they don't let some event prove to them how good they are.

[JACK-2]

I'm a Kirby player as well, wow!

[The Big Daddy C-Master]

Jan 2, 2009 21:11:02 GMT -5 JACK-2 said:

I'm a Kirby player as well, wow!

That's the spirit. Kirby is my favorite Nintendo character.

[JACK-2]

Me too, talk about crazy coincidence.