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Post by Sinistrous on May 7, 2008 17:12:57 GMT -5
The latest can of worms! This discussion was incited in the Sega vs. Nintendo thread over whether the SEGA consoles had any good RPGs: CM, you do NOT want to discuss what makes an RPG and what doesn't. Trust me; it'll just end up with me telling you and everyone else that Baldur's Gate, Final Fantasy, and the Tales series are NOT RPGs, but adventure games with stats, and you'll end up crying, probably. Just leave it at that, please. I don't play FF and Tales too much really, maybe I should make a thread of what dictates what an RPG is? The amount of options, the size? I'd say BG is one of the best "CRPG's" (the console version is debateable). That is my opinion though, of course you could just create your own RPG game and call it that with pen and paper and a never ending quest. What makes an adventure game? All games let you adventure somewhere, but does that make it an adventure game? Depends on the person who wishes to specify it, games like BG obviously can't allow the amount of options of a pen and paper game and keep the good story it has, but it can closely mimic it (also many add ons from the gaming community change the story and allow many more options). Games like Morrowind and large games like that allow pretty much limitless options and no true main quest in some of them, but that also leads to less satisfaction and it feels like more of a task after a while with no real plot to follow. Many older games didn't allow this many options, so it is safe to say there are very few classic RPG's, especially on console. And why would I cry? I'm sure I'm the hardcore multi-genre gamer around here even though I don't play as much as I used to. I still research, define, and analyze what I play, it's all part of the discussion. I might like BG but it doesn't make me biased in defining what it is. I present the point that, contrary to popular opinion, there are very few console games that are actually RPGs. Games like Final Fantasy, Tales of Phantasia and Chrono Trigger are merely adventure games that have stats. I use the term adventure games because the term is extremely loose and as such encompasses a lot more different game-play styles (from point-and-clicks to turn-based tactical combat). Of course, the PC suffers a similar though greatly lessened fate, in part due to the console "RPGs". A few of the popular PC not-so-very-RPGs are Diablo and Baldur's Gate. Diablo, as CM himself stated, is merely a "hack-and-slash". It is exactly that, a hack-and-slash styled adventure game and little more than an update of the Gauntlet style - hardly an RPG. Baldur's Gate is a bit trickier though; it has a lot of the game-play aspects you see in other RPGs like Fallout, but it still doesn't catch the cigar. So, why is this? Why are Baldur's Gate and Final Fantasy not RPGs? Prepare yourself for a miniature essay: A common definition for a role-playing game is any game that you play a role in. Frankly, I find this definition to be INSANE; it pretty much suggests that about [some huge percentage that I don't feel like making up - it's close to a hundred though] of games are RPGs. More commonly, you'll see requirements like solving quests, making characters, getting items and leveling up a la D&D. While these are common aspects, I don't think of them as requirements - after all, Diablo fits them all quite fine. Then you have story, which tends to be a big playing card here: if it has a huge epic storyline with lots of characters and plot twists and lots of dialog and whatever, it must be an RPG. This is on the right track, but ultimately misses the point. The story is a key element in how an RPG is defined, however, it's not how grand or epic the story itself is, but how the player interacts with the story and game world. An adventure game like Baldur's Gate gives the player little in the way of meaningful interaction between himself/herself and the game world. It merely puts the player into the story and lets them follow the tracks at their own pace. There are opportunities to deviate a bit from the rails throughout, but the conclusion is always the same. The plot is absolute. It's the same thing as Final Fantasy and Chrono Trigger and it follows the same purpose - to tell a story. Then you have a role-playing game like Fallout, which gives the player several different choices on how to approach their goal and your choices have a real effect on the story. For example, you're given about 150 days to get the water chip for Vault 13 before everyone starts drinking their own blood. However, you can choose to pay some water merchants to bring water to the vault (for a price) and increase the time allotted to get the chip. When you finally get the water chip and bring it to the vault, you are given a new task of taking care of this mutant army that's going to kill everybody. The thing is, the mutants don't know where the vault is and they take about 500 days until they finally stumble across it. However, if you got the initial time extension from the water merchants, they'll find the vault a lot faster (MERCHANTS SUCK), by about 100 days. Fallout is filled with these choices and almost always makes your choices meaningful in the long run. That is what makes it an RPG and that's why Baldur's Gate is not. On a final note, this is not a bad thing at all for games like Baldur's Gate and Final Fantasy! I actually like a few Japanese adventure games (often called jRPGs; you can forgive the last four letters as misnomers) like Suikoden and crap. Plus, the adventure genre is probably the best game genre out there, with classics from the Zelda series to Grim Fandango and all those great point-and-clicks I poked at earlier - not to mention the fact that the role-playing game essentially evolved from the adventure game. The two genres merely serve different purposes; one is to tell the player a story (adventure), the other is to offer the player of series of choices which unravel meaningfully into their own story and to offer a reflection upon the player themselves through that medium (RPG).
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Post by Sinistrous on May 7, 2008 17:15:36 GMT -5
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The Big Daddy C-Master
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Post by The Big Daddy C-Master on May 8, 2008 7:26:20 GMT -5
Good job. I have work so I'll have to get on this later, but if you define RPG's like that then I'd have to say that Fallout's cousin, BG, is definitely one. I know you weren't a big big fan of it, but you get multiple options and endings as well with most missions, they didn't go as far with it as they did in some games, but some mods went into it further. No need to break this down just yet, I'll be back to explain.
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Post by Dja Majista on May 8, 2008 9:30:14 GMT -5
The latest can of worms! This discussion was incited in the Sega vs. Nintendo thread over whether the SEGA consoles had any good RPGs: I don't play FF and Tales too much really, maybe I should make a thread of what dictates what an RPG is? The amount of options, the size? I'd say BG is one of the best "CRPG's" (the console version is debateable). That is my opinion though, of course you could just create your own RPG game and call it that with pen and paper and a never ending quest. What makes an adventure game? All games let you adventure somewhere, but does that make it an adventure game? Depends on the person who wishes to specify it, games like BG obviously can't allow the amount of options of a pen and paper game and keep the good story it has, but it can closely mimic it (also many add ons from the gaming community change the story and allow many more options). Games like Morrowind and large games like that allow pretty much limitless options and no true main quest in some of them, but that also leads to less satisfaction and it feels like more of a task after a while with no real plot to follow. Many older games didn't allow this many options, so it is safe to say there are very few classic RPG's, especially on console. And why would I cry? I'm sure I'm the hardcore multi-genre gamer around here even though I don't play as much as I used to. I still research, define, and analyze what I play, it's all part of the discussion. I might like BG but it doesn't make me biased in defining what it is. I present the point that, contrary to popular opinion, there are very few console games that are actually RPGs. Games like Final Fantasy, Tales of Phantasia and Chrono Trigger are merely adventure games that have stats. I use the term adventure games because the term is extremely loose and as such encompasses a lot more different game-play styles (from point-and-clicks to turn-based tactical combat). Of course, the PC suffers a similar though greatly lessened fate, in part due to the console "RPGs". A few of the popular PC not-so-very-RPGs are Diablo and Baldur's Gate. Diablo, as CM himself stated, is merely a "hack-and-slash". It is exactly that, a hack-and-slash styled adventure game and little more than an update of the Gauntlet style - hardly an RPG. Baldur's Gate is a bit trickier though; it has a lot of the game-play aspects you see in other RPGs like Fallout, but it still doesn't catch the cigar. So, why is this? Why are Baldur's Gate and Final Fantasy not RPGs? Prepare yourself for a miniature essay: A common definition for a role-playing game is any game that you play a role in. Frankly, I find this definition to be INSANE; it pretty much suggests that about [some huge percentage that I don't feel like making up - it's close to a hundred though] of games are RPGs. More commonly, you'll see requirements like solving quests, making characters, getting items and leveling up a la D&D. While these are common aspects, I don't think of them as requirements - after all, Diablo fits them all quite fine. Then you have story, which tends to be a big playing card here: if it has a huge epic storyline with lots of characters and plot twists and lots of dialog and whatever, it must be an RPG. This is on the right track, but ultimately misses the point. The story is a key element in how an RPG is defined, however, it's not how grand or epic the story itself is, but how the player interacts with the story and game world. An adventure game like Baldur's Gate gives the player little in the way of meaningful interaction between himself/herself and the game world. It merely puts the player into the story and lets them follow the tracks at their own pace. There are opportunities to deviate a bit from the rails throughout, but the conclusion is always the same. The plot is absolute. It's the same thing as Final Fantasy and Chrono Trigger and it follows the same purpose - to tell a story. Then you have a role-playing game like Fallout, which gives the player several different choices on how to approach their goal and your choices have a real effect on the story. For example, you're given about 150 days to get the water chip for Vault 13 before everyone starts drinking their own blood. However, you can choose to pay some water merchants to bring water to the vault (for a price) and increase the time allotted to get the chip. When you finally get the water chip and bring it to the vault, you are given a new task of taking care of this mutant army that's going to kill everybody. The thing is, the mutants don't know where the vault is and they take about 500 days until they finally stumble across it. However, if you got the initial time extension from the water merchants, they'll find the vault a lot faster (MERCHANTS SUCK), by about 100 days. Fallout is filled with these choices and almost always makes your choices meaningful in the long run. That is what makes it an RPG and that's why Baldur's Gate is not. On a final note, this is not a bad thing at all for games like Baldur's Gate and Final Fantasy! I actually like a few Japanese adventure games (often called jRPGs; you can forgive the last four letters as misnomers) like Suikoden and crap. Plus, the adventure genre is probably the best game genre out there, with classics from the Zelda series to Grim Fandango and all those great point-and-clicks I poked at earlier - not to mention the fact that the role-playing game essentially evolved from the adventure game. The two genres merely serve different purposes; one is to tell the player a story (adventure), the other is to offer the player of series of choices which unravel meaningfully into their own story and to offer a reflection upon the player themselves through that medium (RPG). That was very informative. So let me get this down solid. You believe that an RPG requires by definition the following element: the player has choices which have a meaningful effect on the story. So essentially a role-playing game is one in which the player has a meaningful role to play in the story itself. Now this is where definitions get tricky and start developing gray areas: How do you define "meaningful"? Right now your definition is relying on a vague term that's quantitative: you're choices must have this much effect on the story to be considered "meaningful." Ok so I'm just gonna play with this a bit. Let's say we take out the term "meaningful." The player has choices which have an effect on the story. Now we've run into a problem again. Every game does this. In almost every game the player causes the story to progress (Actually this problem was present in the old definition too.). So it's necessary to delineate between the player's choices and the game's laid out course: The player has choices which have an altering effect on the natural course of the story. I think that's as far as I'll go right now. But consider this. Many games, when defined honestly, are probably gonna be a mix of genres. Like in ToTA, you can alter the course of the story slightly but not meaningfully. So now that you have enlightened me, I'd be more inlined to call it an adventure/fighting/RPG type game. But typically we define games for their primary qualities. So I'd probably say, it's an adventure game with RPG elements. But yeah, I think it's important to note that few games can really be defined with such a singular genre. After all, they aren't exactly mutually exclusive of eachother.
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The Big Daddy C-Master
Big Daddy
Living life to the fullest, and it feels great.
I'm still here... for now...
Posts: 26,387
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Post by The Big Daddy C-Master on May 9, 2008 21:28:42 GMT -5
Ok, on the topic of BG, by your definitions it is in fact an RPG. You have elements that do affect the outcome of what you do. Sure you do fight a final boss in a main storyline, but your actions throughout the game determine what type of deity you will become, if any. You have your reputation scores, and certain actions that cause certain affects. If you join the Church of Talos, you can't join the Church of Lathander, and since you rob from one of the churches it affects how you choose.
There are always multiple twists and ways to every quest, the problem is often the rewards are nowhere near the same. For example in Windspear hills you can of course take the heroic path and kill Firkraag, but there are other options. You can kill Garren Windspear and take the deed, or you can choose to simply get the girl back and do neither, these actions affect what Stronghold you can access and what you will do later.
There is also the dragon egg quest, you do so many things here that I had to play the game several times to do them all. You can take the good path and get the eggs back and kill the priestess, or you can let them use the eggs, or you can kill them and get the eggs for yourself to use, kill the dragon and find another way out. You can kill the entire city and leave as well. In fact you can even skip the Shaugin city and go straight to the underdark.
There are also the romances which have much depth and many endings based on what you do. You can even have threeways or love triangles.
Sure the game isn't as loaded with options due to it having a solid main story, but there are many ways to go by doing every mission
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Post by Sinistrous on May 10, 2008 16:26:28 GMT -5
CM, I'm not talking about BG II. BG II was much more of an RPG than its predecessor and did actually have some real story interaction. The original was basically a straight narrative with D&D combat. I actually like BG II to an extent (I thought you knew this?), I just happen to hate some of the technical issues like the shitty pathfinding.
DM,
Meaningful choices is not vague at all. It means that your choices actually have consequences on how the story plays out. Remember how Golden Sun threw tons of yes/no questions at you and it didn't matter at all what you chose? That's what I'm talking about. Remember the part in Final Fantasy VII where you have to reach the top of Shinra Corp. to get Aeris? They give you the option of taking the stairs on the side or going in the front and taking the elevator. No matter what you choose, the story plays out in the same way just with different scenes that serve the same purpose (and different amounts of loot acquired). These choices are not meaningful. In ToTA, nothing you do has a real effect on the story that I've seen, it always follows the same narrative. Feel free to point out specific examples so I can debase them and show why it's not an RPG at all. /grin
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The Big Daddy C-Master
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Post by The Big Daddy C-Master on May 10, 2008 21:05:33 GMT -5
I thought you meant that game, I haven't played BG in some time, I'll need to analyze it first, but I believe I see what you mean.
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Psyquis52
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Post by Psyquis52 on May 10, 2008 23:07:27 GMT -5
So (out of curiousity) what game would fall under Role Playing?
Sorry, what VIDEO game would fall under Role Playing? I want to know where we stand here.
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Post by Sinistrous on May 11, 2008 16:46:04 GMT -5
Fallout seems to be my standard for role playing in a game. Similarly there's Arcanum, a lot of the same guys worked on that one. Some other modern ones would include Planescape: Torment (which has one of the best storylines I've seen in a computer game), The Witcher, and the Gothic series. Then you have the classics like Realms of Arkania as well as the Ultima and (what I've played of) the Wizardry series.
Or are you talking about console games specifically? Cause I don't know many. I'm told KOTOR is supposed to have some role-playing in it, but I didn't get far enough in either ones to see.
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Psyquis52
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Post by Psyquis52 on May 12, 2008 0:07:23 GMT -5
I just meant video-games in general. Well, actually that answered my question pretty well.
Okay so if Turn-based so called RPG's aren't RPG's then what do we call them?
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The Big Daddy C-Master
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Post by The Big Daddy C-Master on May 13, 2008 9:22:28 GMT -5
So (out of curiousity) what game would fall under Role Playing? Sorry, what VIDEO game would fall under Role Playing? I want to know where we stand here. Anything with a sword and shield? lol j/k Like Dja Majista said many games these days cross genres so it's hard to label it as one thing.
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Post by Sinistrous on May 16, 2008 21:04:46 GMT -5
Sorry, was away working for a while.
It depends on the game, but in general I just call them adventure games. I'll go ahead and note that I myself tend to refer to games like Final Fantasy as jRPGs out of habit and the fact that it's easier. Plus, I like to think that implies it's an adventure game even though I know better.
Also, I think it's pretty easy to classify games, you just have to focus on the game's purpose rather than giving too much attention to aesthetics.
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The Big Daddy C-Master
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Living life to the fullest, and it feels great.
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Post by The Big Daddy C-Master on May 17, 2008 23:55:30 GMT -5
Sorry, was away working for a while. It depends on the game, but in general I just call them adventure games. I'll go ahead and note that I myself tend to refer to games like Final Fantasy as jRPGs out of habit and the fact that it's easier. Plus, I like to think that implies it's an adventure game even though I know better. Also, I think it's pretty easy to classify games, you just have to focus on the game's purpose rather than giving too much attention to aesthetics. Focus on their meaning is one thing, but some of them are many things in one, which is the direction games go now. Everyone will have a different feel on what they are. Something like Ratchet and Clank is an adventure/shooter. But some could say it is a platform/shooter. Both are pretty close on.
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Post by Sinistrous on May 31, 2008 18:28:19 GMT -5
Platformer, I guess. I haven't played the game in years, but the idea of the game is to reach the end of the levels, no? Adventure games are there to convey a story while shooters (really just action games) are there to throw the player into some action and defeat enemies (think Turtles in Time or Defender). With a platformer, the purpose is to reach the end of a level and negotiating different obstacles a long the way. Sure, there's bosses and stuff but that's not really the bulk of the game. Some games weave the lines a bit, like R&C and Jet Force Gemini, but they still tend to fall one way or the other in the end (JFG works similarly to R&C, but the kill-doors - or whatever they were called - shift it more towards action).
Essentially, just because the world is more open-ended than Pitfall and you shoot at robots along the way, the point of the gameplay is still to reach the end of the level (??), like with Mario.
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rascaduanok
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Post by rascaduanok on Aug 2, 2008 11:37:46 GMT -5
Some other modern ones would include Planescape: Torment (which has one of the best storylines I've seen in a computer game) Hmmm, I clicked on reply specifically in order to mention this game as I consider it a true RPG. You can customise your character in whichever way you want, and I’d say it has one of the best style switching mechanics in RPGs. Having said that, I would cite games like Deus Ex and Thief as having huge RPG elements simply because you truly put yourself into the rôle assigned to you. In Thief, unlike say Baldur’s Gate, you don’t think about attacking someone because you have a +3 sword or other such nonsense, but you consider what it would mean to find yourself in that situation as the protagonist. So you think you need to get across that room with the guards present while sticking to shadows, or putting out lights with water arrows, etc.
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The Big Daddy C-Master
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Living life to the fullest, and it feels great.
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Post by The Big Daddy C-Master on Aug 2, 2008 16:28:32 GMT -5
I need to get into Planescape Torment it seems, perhaps one day I'll start playing games again.
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