Suicide

[pinstrike]

As Albert Camus once said, "there is only one really serious
philosophical problem: suicide. When one decides whether life is worth living or not, one answers the fundamental question of philosophy."
So lets make philosophers out of us. What are your views on suicide? Religious, philosphical, practical or absurd, all opinions and defenses thereof are allowed here.

[The Big Daddy C-Master]

It is such a broad topic, I'd advise against killing yourself for selfish reasons. That differs from self sacrifice.

I'm throwing this on the table to get this ball rolling in a certain direction.

[Psyquis52]

I'm against suicide as well partially due to the hoplessness of it.

[pinstrike]

I advocate suicide in any and all situations. I look at it as a logical decision in most cases, and even in others where it is a matter of temporary mental instability, it usually has the same amount of impact on the planet and on mankind.

The only suicide that should be mourned is the suicide of a genius, or an artist. Ironically, these suicides should also be regarded as points for suicide. The brilliant and even highly-cognizant have a higher suicide rate. I attribute this to the fact that they know more about the world and life and made the right decision in regards to it as it related to them.

In short, I believe that life really has no inherent meaning or purpose, and therefore nothing to be neglected by checking out of it, but take it as a point that the list of geniuses and artists we remember hasa fairly high suicide percentage.

And of course suicide is selfish. But what difference does that make to the dead?

[The Big Daddy C-Master]

What is the general logic behind it though, in most cases like here the reasons for suicide are generally less catastrophic. It is the perception of a person's own life who is most likely viewing it for the worst at that particular time. We all have struggles, but the truly strong overcome them. Many of the "geniuses" so to speak were also unstable to a degree.

We affect others while we are alive, that is strength in itself.

[Dja Majista]

May 21, 2008 17:45:22 GMT -5 pinstrike said:

I advocate suicide in any and all situations. I look at it as a logical decision in most cases, and even in others where it is a matter of temporary mental instability, it usually has the same amount of impact on the planet and on mankind.

The only suicide that should be mourned is the suicide of a genius, or an artist. Ironically, these suicides should also be regarded as points for suicide. The brilliant and even highly-cognizant have a higher suicide rate. I attribute this to the fact that they know more about the world and life and made the right decision in regards to it as it related to them.

In short, I believe that life really has no inherent meaning or purpose, and therefore nothing to be neglected by checking out of it, but take it as a point that the list of geniuses and artists we remember hasa fairly high suicide percentage.

And of course suicide is selfish. But what difference does that make to the dead?

The brilliant and even highly-cognizant have a higher suicide rate. I attribute this to the fact that they know more about the world and life and made the right decision in regards to it as it related to them.

I'd attribute that to their susceptibility to philosophy. Not a bad thing, but even the greatest of thinkers can get caught up in a single school of thought. One philosophy, if agreed with wholeheartedly, can rule a person's life, or cause the person to end it.

It's a very simple philosophy:

Right now the universe is expanding, but one of these days it's all going to collapse into itself.
Everything, everyone will have done, will be rendered for naught.

While it is littered with debatable assumptions, it's still very convincing. It uses science as evidence, as we can pretty much say for sure that the universe is expanding and based on the laws of energy, is likely to retract again. And it's apparently true: Even if mankind survives the aeons of life among the stars, we will all once again return to the chaos known as the center of the universe in due time. And once dispersed again we will leave no trace whatsoever, and life may take billions upon billions of years to return. Yes it's convincing, but...

By your logic, in saying that life has no meaning, I don't see how suicide is really much more logical than staying alive. They seem about the same. See, if you choose to die because life has no meaning, what are you accomplishing really? Death would have no meaning either. Is there some kind of negative meaning in prolonging your life (that would be meaningful to an extent so probably not)? What makes killing oneself the right thing to do if it's done because life has no meaning? It follows that death would have no meaning either right? So if "meaning" is the only standard for the right decision, there is no right decision. So would I be correct in anticipating a new standard, the more popular one?: "Life sucks, it's not worth your time."

Now regarding the term "meaning". It's one thing to say that there is inherent meaning in something. It's another thing to say that meaning can be placed in something. Now honestly, how could anything have this abstraction we call meaning without an intelligence to define meaning in the first place? Humans say things have meaning, but usually they don't just say it has meaning in... "oh nothing in particular." Meaning is usually defined in regards to something else. Person A is important to person B. Screw complements screw driver. So your statement

I believe that life really has no inherent meaning or purpose

is fair in saying that meaning is not necessarily inherent. However regarding meaning and purpose, it lies with intelligences such as ourselves to assign these things. So we can give ourselves meaning, and that's what we do. I haven't mentioned God yet, but if He exists, then He, the transcendent intelligence, can assign meaning to us before we're even born. And that would allow some sort of inherent meaning.

Finally, I believe that if suicide is made as a choice for logical reasons, it would simply be rash. The person would be acting in ignorance, something he could at least attempt to resolve if he merely opts to prolong his life. Now why do I say it's rash? Statements like "Life has no meaning/purpose" are bold because they imply some kind of absoluteness or perfectness of our view of the world. However, this simply is very unlikely to be the case. Epistemology, or the philosophy of knowledge, regardless of what school it is, tends to find human knowledge incredibly restricted. Rationalists believe that some knowledge can be obtained without the senses. And empiricists believe that all knowledge starts with the senses. Now, wouldn't it be peculiar if flesh creatures such as ourselves, spawned through the process of evolution, would come out having a full scope world view, capable of sensing everything that exists? After all, evolution sees no need to develop capabilities that the life form has no need of. Our senses tell us only what our bodies need to see in order to enhance our ability to survive.

So to recap, I'm saying with your logic, the more acceptable conclusion would be that neither death nor the prolongation of life are the right decisions. They both have the same amount of meaning. That is, zero equals zero.
Next, meaning and purpose are assigned by intelligences such as ourselves. So is value. So to say life has no meaning whatsoever, would be unacceptable because we give it to ourselves.
And lastly, the decision to take one's own life is rash. Because the reasoning behind it usually does not suffice as adequate grounds for the conclusion. There is a huge lack of knowledge involved here. That much is clear thanks to epistemology.

[The Big Daddy C-Master]

If we were going to be logical we could just ask how the world would work if everyone killed themselves.

[Dja Majista]

Who cares if the world works or not?

[The Big Daddy C-Master]

May 27, 2008 18:40:06 GMT -5 Dja Majista said:

Who cares if the world works or not?

You should, you live in it.

[Dja Majista]

Well if I'm gonna be dying, I don't think I'll be living anywhere.

[The Big Daddy C-Master]

The ones who live will... live.

[Dja Majista]

...Thank you for playing!

Next!

[Psyquis52]

I'm next! ;D

You die because you not worth much not worth too play can't do well. So die to live in death when dying means no life for you can't live well dead.

[Dja Majista]

whoa. I guess that might be a valid point...

[The Big Daddy C-Master]

Jun 2, 2008 22:17:32 GMT -5 Psyquis52 said:

I'm next! ;D

You die because you not worth much not worth too play can't do well. So die to live in death when dying means no life for you can't live well dead.

True...

[Psyquis52]

Thanks guys! ;D

*Sets clothes on fire*

[Dja Majista]

Oh no. What have we done?

[Psyquis52]

What?

Oh that?

Nah. I took off my clothes first.

[Dja Majista]

...oh ok...
...


You should leave them on next time.

[Psyquis52]

Leave them on and burn them?

That's suicide!

[Dja Majista]

not if your a robot. Wait a minute... Are you one of those flesh types?

[warmunger]

Hmmmm...suicide. I don't know what to say, I was raised to think it's a bad thing and an "easy way out", but I don't think so....sometimes.

It might sound strange but life and death are really the same thing to me, if you got no real reason to do it, then why do it?

[The Big Daddy C-Master]

Jun 25, 2008 12:52:51 GMT -5 @warmunger said:

Hmmmm...suicide. I don't know what to say, I was raised to think it's a bad thing and an "easy way out", but I don't think so....sometimes.

It might sound strange but life and death are really the same thing to me, if you got no real reason to do it, then why do it?

Why are they the same to you?