Is Altruism Good or Bad?

[The Big Daddy C-Master]

aynrandlexicon.com/lexicon/altruism.html

I've had many discussions lately about the downsides to altruism, which is a turn from the norm because altruism is seen as inherently good and virtuous. I'd have to say that altruism is ultimately a form of oppression in the ultimate form and is preached by our churches and government alike, as well as families to program others to be used to the benefit of others.

[Ragnar Danneskjöld]

Most people in today's culture call you a monster for even suggesting that Altruism is anything but good. Well, mainly they will try shame and guilt you into thinking that yourself.

There is no way I could have said it any better than Ayn Rand did in the link you provided. One thing I can contribute is a video that further demonstrates this point, by Yaron Brook.

[The Big Daddy C-Master]

Dec 18, 2012 21:39:23 GMT -5 Ragnar Danneskjöld said:

Most people in today's culture call you a monster for even suggesting that Altruism is anything but good. Well, mainly they will try shame and guilt you into thinking that yourself.

There is no way I could have said it any better than Ayn Rand did in the link you provided. One thing I can contribute is a video that further demonstrates this point, by Yaron Brook.

When people can't argue with facts they'll use shaming language and ad hominem attacks.

Most people don't know what altruism really is. They simply see it as "helping others and being a good person". A person can help others and still retain his individual sovereignty. You don't have to be a slave to be a "good person". Altruism is about enslaving others, which is why the government, family, and religion love to use it.

[The Big Daddy C-Master]

I found a good landmine of information.

www.robdiego.com/fourworstch3.htm

aynrandlexicon.com/lexicon/altruism.html

[Ragnar Danneskjöld]

Those are great. I think the best examples of showing the perils of Altruism would be Ayn Rands novels. They demonstrate using a narrative exactly the points your links are making. The Fountainhead is more of a demonstration on how it effects someones personal life, and Atlas Shrugged is more how it effects an entire society. Both are highly recommended reads.

[The Big Daddy C-Master]

Dec 19, 2012 16:24:55 GMT -5 Ragnar Danneskjöld said:

Those are great. I think the best examples of showing the perils of Altruism would be Ayn Rands novels. They demonstrate using a narrative exactly the points your links are making. The Fountainhead is more of a demonstration on how it effects someones personal life, and Atlas Shrugged is more how it effects an entire society. Both are highly recommended reads.

I had one novel come in today. The free market solutions. I am waiting on Atlas Shrugged. Those websites made some very good arguments and laid it out in very practical and day to day terms. Very good.

[JACK-2]

It can be used for bad. I guess from Ayn Rands perspective it's bad because historically it's been used to demand things from people. I think things have to change before some people can have faith in alturism again.

[The Big Daddy C-Master]

Because that's exactly what it's there for. For some to use the guise of "goodness" to get free stuff. I mean why else would you believe in it? You can benefit society much more by being productive.

The real reason it fails is that "someone else first" isn't logical or practical. You have to look after yourself first and everyone does what's in their own self interest no matter how much they try to convince people otherwise. In fact the people who talk the most about giving and sharing tend to be the most selfish. "Altrusim" is used for controlling others. The invisible hand has proven that people following their own self interest leads to a more productive society than a collectivist ideal where people are equal, but poor. I'd rather have inequality where everyone is better off than equality in failure. That's for the losers who want to drag others down.

And most people do have faith in it. That alone shows it's not a good idea. What the majority believes in is generally bad.

[JACK-2]

Well, it's an easily abusable system. Things like class warfare and all the marxist propaganda makes it unreliable. At the end of the day free market, voluntary exchange and private property are what work.

[The Big Daddy C-Master]

Exactly.

Capital forces dictate that the resources are allocated in the most efficient way possible, which brings down costs and ensures that everyone gets the best living possible.

The "everything for free and shared" mentality doesn't work because labor and resources are limited. When I provide a good or service to someone, they are voluntarily spending their money on what they value which means they value the service more than the money and that resources are being used in the most efficient way possible. If everyone could have "free" stuff, you'd be wasting resources producing things that people don't need otherwise. Which lowers the standard of living for everyone. Look at Obamacare. A young person really only needs catastrophic plans, yet under the guise of "free healthcare" they're forced to pay for things they don't need in order to subsidize others which is a waste of resources.

Look at it another way. If I offer you an apple and you offer me an orange and we both agree and trade; we both benefit. If I just give you an apple, you benefit at my loss.

If I provide a service to you for money and you voluntarily pay for it, it's because you valued it more than the money you spent otherwise you wouldn't have paid for it. I valued the money more than the service which is why I aim to make a profit. A business that is losing money is a way of the market telling him that his business is not running as productively as it could be and is wasting resources. A business that does this over an extended period goes out of business. Governments waste a tremendous amount of money because they can't "fail" therefore they can waste all the resources they want as you well see.

[JACK-2]

"everything for free and shared"

I don't understand this mentality to be honest. I mean even in supposed collectivist countries I don't see this mentality. Remember when I brought up copyright online? Well, in the west people are radically anti-copyright online and spout the usually marxist rhetoric. Artist who try to protect their work are mocked and made fun of in forums. In Japan on the other hand, a supposed "collectivist" country. People are over-zealous in protecting copyright. It's completely different than the so called free west. Despite all the traditionalism there, the people are constantly making concessions to capitalism same with China.

Look at it another way. If offer you an apple and you offer me an orange and we both agree and trade; we both benefit. If I just give you an apple, you benefit at my loss.

But, I also lose too because if you lose then eventually I'll run out of someone to sell me apples.

People in the west don't get it. The free market gives you ANYTHING YOU WANT. As long as it can finance it. Another anime example, in japan anime depends on dvd prices which are much more expensive then normal dvds. They range to 80-100 for Bluray that at best feature 2 episodes. The reason why their so expensive is because the market is small niche market. But, fans don't care and will pay the price. Hell, there are people called vippers who buy these dvds in bulk just to show support. Because they know the market needs money to survive. Fast forward to the u.s. Average anime sells for the typical dvd price. You can get entire seasons on Japanese prices. But, western fans refuse to pay, they instead pirate and rationalize.

[The Big Daddy C-Master]

Jan 16, 2014 2:21:53 GMT -5 JACK-2 said:

"everything for free and shared"

I don't understand this mentality to be honest. I mean even in supposed collectivist countries I don't see this mentality. Remember when I brought up copyright online? Well, in the west people are radically anti-copyright online and spout the usually marxist rhetoric. Artist who try to protect their work are mocked and made fun of in forums. In Japan on the other hand, a supposed "collectivist" country. People are over-zealous in protecting copyright. It's completely different than the so called free west. Despite all the traditionalism there, the people are constantly making concessions to capitalism same with China.

Look at it another way. If offer you an apple and you offer me an orange and we both agree and trade; we both benefit. If I just give you an apple, you benefit at my loss.

But, I also lose too because if you lose then eventually I'll run out of someone to sell me apples.

People in the west don't get it. The free market gives you ANYTHING YOU WANT. As long as it can finance it. Another anime example, in japan anime depends on dvd prices which are much more expensive then normal dvds. They range to 80-100 for Bluray that at best feature 2 episodes. The reason why their so expensive is because the market is small niche market. But, fans don't care and will pay the price. Hell, there are people called vippers who buy these dvds in bulk just to show support. Because they know the market needs money to survive. Fast forward to the u.s. Average anime sells for the typical dvd price. You can get entire seasons on Japanese prices. But, western fans refuse to pay, they instead pirate and rationalize.

Well like Peter Schiff and I say, America is more communist than China. We give capitalism a bad name.


And yes, that's the ultimate point. Eventually you run out of a host. So the people who support this "everyone gets everything they want" mentality end up actually getting less because there is no incentive to produce. Marxists see wealth as a zero sum game; there is a hidden treasure chest somewhere and successful people have "extracted" it from the society for themselves. When wealth is obviously created. I mean animals in the nature have no wealth. They live the same as always, they have to depend on basic survival. Humans have wealth because it was created.

Markets dictate price. People will pay a high price for something if they see the value in it, but the good part about a free market is that when it is productive enough you can provide more and more to people for less and less. Look at electronics.

Speaking of rationalization:

forums.shoryuken.com/discussion/187080/sony-has-a-79-chance-to-go-bankrupt-within-the-next-two-years/p5

Read and weep.

[JACK-2]

"Piracy promotes sales
"

"There is a certain amount of piracy that is needed for advertisement and to generate a buzz. "[/]

"I don't think piracy has as much of an impact on sales nowadays"


Gotta love how ubiquitous this mentality is. I remember in Japan otaku declaring they'll buy hundreds of copies of one game before the game was even out. Gotta love the contrast.

[The Big Daddy C-Master]

Jan 16, 2014 2:44:59 GMT -5 JACK-2 said:

"Piracy promotes sales
"

"There is a certain amount of piracy that is needed for advertisement and to generate a buzz. "[/]

"I don't think piracy has as much of an impact on sales nowadays"


Gotta love how ubiquitous this mentality is. I remember in Japan otaku declaring they'll buy hundreds of copies of one game before the game was even out. Gotta love the contrast.

Lol. If everyone pirates how could companies make money? I love how they try to blame PC gamers, when many console games have EVEN MORE pirating.

To top it off people who game on pc primarily or exclusively generally pay because they know the games don't cost much. It's the people who play on console and get games on PC that like to pirate.

I was talking to this guy on youtube and telling him to get Kof xiii on PC because it was light on the system and a great game for only $10.

Do you know what he told me?

"You see that $10, isn't going to happen lol."

I mean seriously. He then pirates SF4Ae, when it was on sale for only $11 dollars.

Why? These people pay like $60 for console games so it makes no sense to me.