The Individual vs the Collective

[The Big Daddy C-Master]

Where do you fall on this matter? Do you believe in individual sovereignty or the collective at the expense of him.

[Ragnar Danneskjöld]

Individualism all the way. Give me liberty or give me death! The advancement of civilization is the process of setting men free from other men toward a society of privacy. Collectivism leads to a dead end and will one day wind up on the ash heap of history along with all of the other failed morally corrupt political and philosophical ideas. Won't be in our lifetime though unfortunately.

[The Big Daddy C-Master]

May 19, 2013 20:07:37 GMT -5 Ragnar Danneskjöld said:

Individualism all the way. Give me liberty or give me death! The advancement of civilization is the process of setting men free from other men toward a society of privacy. Collectivism leads to a dead end and will one day wind up on the ash heap of history along with all of the other failed morally corrupt political and philosophical ideas. Won't be in our lifetime though unfortunately.

Funny how it fails time and time again and people still vote for it.

[JACK-2]

I'm an individualist insofar as Rule of law, Private property, and free market are concerned. But I also value family and community. But, here in the west we've gone a bit crazy. Individualism manifest as egoism while collectivism manifest as marxism. Basically, they bad versions of both individualism and collectivism respectively. I don't like this dichotomy anyway. To me it's Good ideas vs Bad ideas. Not, individualism vs collectivism.

[The Big Daddy C-Master]

Dec 18, 2013 15:23:56 GMT -5 JACK-2 said:

I'm an individualist insofar as Rule of law, Private property, and free market are concerned. But I also value family and community. But, here in the west we've gone a bit crazy. Individualism manifest as egoism while collectivism manifest as marxism. Basically, they bad versions of both individualism and collectivism respectively. I don't like this dichotomy anyway. To me it's Good ideas vs Bad ideas. Not, individualism vs collectivism.

Being an individual doesn't mean you have to hate or neglect your family and community. It just means you believe and freedom to yourself and to associate with others how you and they wish. Not by force of gun or wealth transfers no matter the cause. I'd say the community and family were stronger in the past since people dealt with each other instead of some third party who just stole things and gave it to someone else.

[JACK-2]

Dec 18, 2013 15:56:15 GMT -5 The Big Daddy C-Master said:

Being an individual doesn't mean you have to hate or neglect your family and community.

Of course not, what I'm saying is that there are people who use the term individualism in a self-serving and narrow way. When I think of individualism, I think of actually ideas attached to it like: Personal responsibility, Private property and what not. It's the specific ideas that count and how they work in society that matter. It's not always this vs that. But, what do I know?

[JACK-2]

I think that in an individualist society talented people rise up quickly while the stupid sink like a rock. So, there's a sort of hyper polarization that doesn't exsist in collectivist societies, with it's safety net for the weak and caps for the strong.

[The Big Daddy C-Master]

Jan 16, 2014 16:09:54 GMT -5 JACK-2 said:

I think that in an individualist society talented people rise up quickly while the stupid sink like a rock. So, there's a sort of hyper polarization that doesn't exsist in collectivist societies, with it's safety net for the weak and caps for the strong.

I think in an individual society the living standards of everyone rises. Which is why a poor person in America in the past was better off than the average person somewhere else, and middle class here was like the rich. Extra productivity makes the lives of everyone easier. That was a major part of the link I sent you in the PM about the alpha males. He was saying people can rise to the top in two ways. A socialist style society where they screw over everyone with government, or an individual society where you benefit everyone. Communism makes everyone equal. Equally poor. People aren't equal anyways and the sad part is most would cut off their hand to see you lose a finger. This is how envy works.