Does execution ruin fighting games?

[The Big Daddy C-Master]

There's been this new age sentiment going around that execution is bad for fighting games because it "dumbs it down". I feel that execution is inherent to fighting games like athleticism to sports.

Any thoughts on this?

[JACK-2]

You must be talking about snk games. Yeah, I think it does. The meat of a game is the meta games. Execution is just a barrier between you and that meta game. I don't think you should have to do a pretzel twist button inputs in order to learn a move. Because what makes fighting games deep is the metagame. Most fighters have easy inputs minus snk, though.

[The Big Daddy C-Master]

Dec 31, 2013 16:29:46 GMT -5 JACK-2 said:

You must be talking about snk games. Yeah, I think it does. The meat of a game is the meta games. Execution is just a barrier between you and that meta game. I don't think you should have to do a pretzel twist button inputs in order to learn a move. Because what makes fighting games deep is the metagame. Most fighters have easy inputs minus snk, though.

I'm talking about games regardless. Many people defend SF4's watered down system by saying execution isn't necessary. I think execution is very necessary. Good execution is part of fighting games and has been for a long time. There's a reason you have dp's and command grabs as more complex motions compared to normal attacks. If you had them come out in a single button press they'd be broken. There's a reason that Sonic boom requires a charge. It's part of the intrinsic game balance. To see this done wrong we just have to look at that SF4 game they made for the handheld where you could do your moves instantly. The game was immediately broken.

It's the same thing with combos. What if you could do auto macro kill combos? There's meant to be a risk when you go for better moves.

Now the problem is arbitrary execution, like SF4 one frame links. There's no reason for them to be in there and they were simply put there to be "hard". No human will get 1/60th of a second every time and even players like Sako drop Evil Ryu combos with plinking. Was there any reason to have that? Not at all.

SNK I think is overall reasonable. The pretzel motion was for the raging storm which was fast, invincible, did huge damage, and had a monster hitbox. That motion does take some practice though.

Execution only gets in the way when it is arbitrary or near impossible for humans to do. Execution also lets you discover things not intended by the game and lets you take it to the next level. So there's that too.

I think this complaint has spawned from the newer generation of 09 gamers who simply don't want to put in the work. It's much like a person wanting to get a 3 point shot with no practice.

[JACK-2]

Dec 31, 2013 17:12:27 GMT -5 The Big Daddy C-Master said:

I'm talking about games regardless. Many people defend SF4's watered down system by saying execution isn't necessary. I think execution is very necessary. Good execution is part of fighting games and has been for a long time. There's a reason you have dp's and command grabs as more complex motions compared to normal attacks. If you had them come out in a single button press they'd be broken. There's a reason that Sonic boom requires a charge. It's part of the intrinsic game balance. To see this done wrong we just have to look at that SF4 game they made for the handheld where you could do your moves instantly. The game was immediately broken.

Guiles projectile has quick recovery time. So, it's a special case. I don't think complex button inputs makes a game good. Supers have complex button inputs, but they're essentially a dumbed down mechanic from the onset. Things like controlling space don't rely on button inputs [minus charge characters], it requires knowledge of what your character can do at certain ranges. Most people when they talk about execution focus on combos which is just he surface area. SF4 is a bit boring because the mechanics and playstyles are too tepid. But, people will deny this. Capcom has always had weak execution anyway, the timing for attacks isn't strict at all.

Dec 31, 2013 17:12:27 GMT -5 The Big Daddy C-Master said:

It's the same thing with combos. What if you could do auto macro kill combos? There's meant to be a risk when you go for better moves.

I've never been into combos as a the center point of any meta-game. But, in response to your example. Just nerf the damage or make it scale faster.

Dec 31, 2013 17:12:27 GMT -5 The Big Daddy C-Master said:

SNK I think is overall reasonable. The pretzel motion was for the raging storm which was fast, invincible, did huge damage, and had a monster hitbox. That motion does take some practice though.

I mean't execution for their older console ports. Like kof 2k1-2k3. It was ridiculous.

Dec 31, 2013 17:12:27 GMT -5 The Big Daddy C-Master said:

Execution only gets in the way when it is arbitrary or near impossible for humans to do. Execution also lets you discover things not intended by the game and lets you take it to the next level. So there's that too.

I think this complaint has spawned from the newer generation of 09 gamers who simply don't want to put in the work. It's much like a person wanting to get a 3 point shot with no practice.

I've been fighting games for years. Execution isn't a problem for me anymore. I can even do them on my keyboard. IMO, if they want easy execution then they should make games were spacing and footsies gets you killed and combos scale to shit. I doubt they would like that, though. 09 players is why I left the english speaking sf scene. Way too many poseurs.

Now the problem is arbitrary execution, like SF4 one frame links. There's no reason for them to be in there and they were simply put there to be "hard". No human will get 1/60th of a second every time and even players like Sako drop Evil Ryu combos with plinking. Was there any reason to have that? Not at all.

IIRC, Ken from 3s had some 1 frame link into his jinrai. cr.jab ->jinrai. It wasn't too hard.

[Blaze72]

Are we talking about Fatalities or something along those lines?

[The Big Daddy C-Master]

Dec 31, 2013 18:55:12 GMT -5 JACK-2 said:

Guiles projectile has quick recovery time. So, it's a special case. I don't think complex button inputs makes a game good. Supers have complex button inputs, but they're essentially a dumbed down mechanic from the onset. Things like controlling space don't rely on button inputs [minus charge characters], it requires knowledge of what your character can do at certain ranges. Most people when they talk about execution focus on combos which is just he surface area. SF4 is a bit boring because the mechanics and playstyles are too tepid. But, people will deny this. Capcom has always had weak execution anyway, the timing for attacks isn't strict at all.

No it's not a special case at all. Why would you want a dp to come out one frame or a 50% damage command grab? How are supers dumbed down mechanics? They're just stronger moves that require meter. If that's the case then specials are dumbed down mechanics as well.

Street Fighter 4 has bad game design, but one of the large reasons it's bad is because it slops up the execution. Why should you be able to easily mash out of a reversal because you don't want to work on the timing? There's a reason those are meant to be harder to do. Too easy and it kills offense.

Dec 31, 2013 18:55:12 GMT -5 JACK-2 said:

I've never been into combos as a the center point of any meta-game. But, in response to your example. Just nerf the damage or make it scale faster.

That's your own play preference. Attacks that do more damage should still take more risk, combos are not. Combos are just a reward for more work and better timing into the game. If you want to take a safer route and do an easier combo, why should you get equal damage to someone who took more risk?

I like higher damage too over lower damage like SF4, but combos aren't bad. Every fighter has them and they don't dumb down the game.

Dec 31, 2013 18:55:12 GMT -5 JACK-2 said:

I mean't execution for their older console ports. Like kof 2k1-2k3. It was ridiculous.

The inputs then are the same now. Older games were just tighter and you to be faster. SF isn't different in that regard. Many modern players would not be able to execute at all in the old games.

Dec 31, 2013 18:55:12 GMT -5 JACK-2 said:

I've been fighting games for years. Execution isn't a problem for me anymore. I can even do them on my keyboard. IMO, if they want easy execution then they should make games were spacing and footsies gets you killed and combos scale to shit. I doubt they would like that, though. 09 players is why I left the english speaking sf scene. Way too many poseurs.

It's not a problem for me at all, but even the best players drop them. But anybody who says execution isn't a part of fighting games doesn't want to play fighting games. Would you say controlling a basketball dumbs down basketball because it takes away from the strategy? Or would you conclude that having good control over the ball is essential?

Dec 31, 2013 18:55:12 GMT -5 JACK-2 said:

IIRC, Ken from 3s had some 1 frame link into his jinrai. cr.jab ->jinrai. It wasn't too hard.

1 frame links are 1/60th of a second. No way will a human even hit them 95-99% of the time like you would hit a combo in Kof with practice. That's poorly designed execution difficulty.


Execution is only bad when it is poorly implemented and designed like anything. Saying all execution is bad is nonsense to me since it is an inherent part of fighting games.

Many things you see nowadays were discovered by players who had great execution. Would you say Sako is a dumb player simply because he has better execution? Good execution is part of his strategy.

If you want easy execution, pick an easy execution character. Dumbing down games for everybody just makes it scrubby and if you removed all execution barriers you would essentially have a "brawler" aka Naruto and DBZ.

[The Big Daddy C-Master]

Dec 31, 2013 21:31:32 GMT -5 Blaze72 said:

Are we talking about Fatalities or something along those lines?

Fatalities are easy, if you can't do those... well.

[JACK-2]

Dec 31, 2013 23:44:00 GMT -5 The Big Daddy C-Master said:

No it's not a special case at all. Why would you want a dp to come out one frame or a 50% damage command grab? How are supers dumbed down mechanics? They're just stronger moves that require meter. If that's the case then specials are dumbed down mechanics as well.

We might be talking about something different now. When you say easy execution. Do you mean just button inputs like hadouken motion or more?

I forgot to specify I was talking about when supers first came out. My bad. When supers first came out they were is just an automatic combo with huge damage and invincibility frames. They added nothing to the meta game outside of auto-combo. You could do a damaging combo manually in the older SF. You really did not need supers. It was only in SF3 they started to effect play styles. With the one super select system. Specials back then were different because they affect the play styles, supers did not until much later.

Dec 31, 2013 23:44:00 GMT -5 The Big Daddy C-Master said:

Street Fighter 4 has bad game design, but one of the large reasons it's bad is because it slops up the execution. Why should you be able to easily mash out of a reversal because you don't want to work on the timing? There's a reason those are meant to be harder to do. Too easy and it kills offense.


That's your own play preference. Attacks that do more damage should still take more risk, combos are not. Combos are just a reward for more work and better timing into the game. If you want to take a safer route and do an easier combo, why should you get equal damage to someone who took more risk?

Like I said before, you have to specify what you mean by easy execution. Because we might have a mix up.


Are combos really risky, though? A combo opener puts you in hit stun and you're essentially safe while your opponent is free. Unless the game has a combo breaker most of the time it's big easy damage. I'm not saying they're bad, just not as important compared to positioning games.

Dec 31, 2013 23:44:00 GMT -5 The Big Daddy C-Master said:

It's not a problem for me at all, but even the best players drop them. But anybody who says execution isn't a part of fighting games doesn't want to play fighting games. Would you say controlling a basketball dumbs down basketball because it takes away from the strategy? Or would you conclude that having good control over the ball is essential?

It's an entry barrier. If you could lower that entry barrier where everyone had the same ball control. What would determine who's a better player? The answer is strategy. That's the meat of every meta-game. Just like the entry barrier for chess is being able to pick up the pieces. But, is that really a "meaningful" thing. Not to me, it's just a prerequisite. Then again, you have to elaborate on what you mean by execution. I don't wanna make a mistake again like last time.

Dec 31, 2013 18:55:12 GMT -5 JACK-2 said:

Execution is only bad when it is poorly implemented and designed like anything. Saying all execution is bad is nonsense to me since it is an inherent part of fighting games.

Many things you see nowadays were discovered by players who had great execution. Would you say Sako is a dumb player simply because he has better execution? Good execution is part of his strategy.

If you want easy execution, pick an easy execution character. Dumbing down games for everybody just makes it scrubby and if you removed all execution barriers you would essentially have a "brawler" aka Naruto and DBZ

You think if you had the same execution as Daigo you would be able to beat him? A game like chess has very easy execution. You just have to pick up the pieces. But, it's a much deeper game than any fighter. Things like: Yomi, Spacing, footsies and so forth are much more important than button inputs. That's what I mean.

[The Big Daddy C-Master]

When I say execution I mean all execution. Combos are only one part of execution, not the entire part. Speaking of combos SF2 had death combos with every character and redizzy's. So even it had absurd combo damage.

Execution done poorly is when it takes away from a fighter.

Chess is really a different type of strategy than playing fighting games and requires fast reflexes on the fly. If you don't like physical execution you're better off playing those games.

Things like racing a car or playing golf require a different type of strategy than chess. It doesn't make it less deep, just different. Would you say that good execution dumbs down golf? I'd say the execution aspect is inseparable from the strategy and directly affects gameplay.

Diago of course has good execution, but even he drops moves, and there's a reason that special moves have an inherent risk to them. If Diago had no execution he wouldn't be a pro. You can't be a professional at anything if you can't execute. Sako has great execution and strategy like Diago, but I wouldn't say his play style is dumber it's magnificent.

Removing execution barriers entirely just dumbs down the game to being some cinematic.


Personally myself I love execution and challenging myself, I've done roll cancelling, paint the fence, shosho, kof trials, Viper and Evil Ryu combos etc. So (although I have competed in the past for fun) if I were to want to compete I'd have to sharpen up several factors of my game but I wouldn't want bad execution. Not to mention good execution carries over to different games, like fundamentals. Learning how to hit confirm is fundamentals and execution.


Here's one of my fun vids here. Paint the fence!


Happy New Years!

[Blaze72]

Dec 31, 2013 23:47:27 GMT -5 The Big Daddy C-Master said:

Dec 31, 2013 21:31:32 GMT -5 Blaze72 said:

Are we talking about Fatalities or something along those lines?

Fatalities are easy, if you can't do those... well.

But is that what were talking about here?.

[JACK-2]

Happy new Years.

Hmm, I never really thought of it that way. I mean for things like CC combos: shoshosho, ptf, and so fourth. It's probably more physically rewarding to master the timing and stuff for them. I just spent so much time in love with spacing, I tend to overlok other things.

[The Big Daddy C-Master]

Jan 1, 2014 0:53:18 GMT -5 Blaze72 said:

Dec 31, 2013 23:47:27 GMT -5 The Big Daddy C-Master said:

Fatalities are easy, if you can't do those... well.

But is that what were talking about here?.

I just mean execution in general. Do you think execution hurts fighting games. Being able to implement your strategy, do moves properly, etc.

[JACK-2]

Jan 1, 2014 0:59:49 GMT -5 The Big Daddy C-Master said:

I just mean execution in general. Do you think execution hurts fighting games. Being able to implement your strategy, do moves properly, etc.

Can you give me an example of a game with the type of easy execution you're referring too.

[The Big Daddy C-Master]

Jan 1, 2014 0:59:35 GMT -5 JACK-2 said:

Happy new Years.

Hmm, I never really thought of it that way. I mean for things like CC combos: shoshosho, ptf, and so fourth. It's probably more physically rewarding to master the timing and stuff for them. I just spent so much time in love with spacing, I tend to overlok other things.

So you like more of a game like ST. Which is fine because it's a fantastic game.

Many of those things were discovered by players with good execution and weren't even put in their purposefully by the developers.

Even ST had higher execution than SF4 in many ways. Reversals and inputs were much tighter, same with CvS2. SF4 teaches many bad habits in this regard because if you try to swap games you will have to sharpen up. I was convincing people to get Kof XIII over at Eventhubs and he loved the way it played, but the first thing he said was "man this is hard". Many of the mechanics that carry you in SF4 just aren't there in older games or Kofxiii, but it will help him in the long run if he chooses to branch out more.

SF4 is execution done poorly. Watered down inputs and 1f link arbitrary difficulty inputs at the same time.

[JACK-2]

My favorite SF is HF and Hyper SF2. Yeah, those games require more fundamentals.

[The Big Daddy C-Master]

Every game has fundamentals, the fundamentals are just tweaked for that game, but the generals like spacing properly and hit confirming are there. Virtua Fighter has different fundamentals than Kof but they both have them.

But yea older games definitely rewarded fundamentals more, now in some games you can just do some 50/50 crap and spam certain moves with no thought, shame.

[Blaze72]

Still not following it

i guess you need to be a fighting game fanatic.

[JACK-2]

Jan 1, 2014 1:37:17 GMT -5 The Big Daddy C-Master said:

But yea older games definitely rewarded fundamentals more, now in some games you can just do some 50/50 crap and spam certain moves with no thought, shame.

And flowcharts. Don't forgot glow charts.

[The Big Daddy C-Master]

Flow Chart Ken. Also here's an interview with Sako on some things I found interesting.

shoryuken.com/2013/12/31/team-horis-sako-talks-capcom-cup-2013-and-ultra-street-fighter-iv-with-famitsu/#_=_

Jan 1, 2014 2:00:10 GMT -5 Blaze72 said:

Still not following it

i guess you need to be a fighting game fanatic.

In simplest terms as possible. Does inputting moves properly take away from fighting games?

[JACK-2]

Is Sako top 5 in AE?

[The Big Daddy C-Master]

Jan 2, 2014 4:42:49 GMT -5 JACK-2 said:

Is Sako top 5 in AE?

Well people have a different definition of top. But he is considered one of the very best and he just won the last tournament. Excellent player. He beat Evo winner Xian for the title.
Here are some matches.

[The Big Daddy C-Master]

With SFV around the corner, what are your thoughts on this now?