Balancing characters by health.

[The Big Daddy C-Master]

How do you feel by this what seems like Capcom-exclusive approach to their fighting games? Do you feel like health is a valid way to balance characters?

I'm about to bang my head against the wall because people look at it as the most powerful thing you can give to a character, not realizing health is never been what made a character good and tools are far more important.

[JACK-2]

Akuma has historically had the least health yet has only been dominant. What are they arguing, though?

[The Big Daddy C-Master]

Jul 11, 2014 19:37:01 GMT -5 JACK-2 said:

Akuma has historically had the least health yet has only been dominant. What are they arguing, though?

Well people are arguing that characters are broken or useless based on health, they are also arguing that dominant characters aren't all that dominant because of their low health. Low health characters have the highest tendency to be top tier, because their options and damage and mobility more than make up for it.

[gurpwnder]

Jul 11, 2014 20:24:03 GMT -5 The Big Daddy C-Master said:

Jul 11, 2014 19:37:01 GMT -5 JACK-2 said:

Akuma has historically had the least health yet has only been dominant. What are they arguing, though?

Well people are arguing that characters are broken or useless based on health, they are also arguing that dominant characters aren't all that dominant because of their low health. Low health characters have the highest tendency to be top tier, because their options and damage and mobility more than make up for it.

I will say one thing, and it'll probably devolve into another rant, but it REALLY irritates me.

Look at Tekken. When a character runs a certain distance, the execute a tackle, where they bash the opponent with their shoulder and momentum. I just find it SO stupid that Marduk can only take as many tackles from Lili and Lili can take from Marduk. Marduk is a BEAST. He should be snapping schoolgirls like Lili like a twig.

Gosh, I hate the schoolgirl trope.

[The Big Daddy C-Master]

Well then you get into the gameplay and story segregation. Oni and Evil Ryu should be killing everybody with a hit. There would realistically be no female characters in any fighters, etc.

In gameplay though health balancing just leads to silliness, especially when a game gets more complex. Better just to balance the game properly in the first place by making everyone good.

Tekken has bears and kangaroos fighting. I can deal with schoolgirls lol.

[JACK-2]

Aug 17, 2014 20:43:10 GMT -5 The Big Daddy C-Master said:

There would realistically be no female characters in any fighters, etc.

Epic line lol.

[gurpwnder]

YEah, that's just my biggest pet peeve with fighting games. After I saw Lili's intro in Tekken 5, where she apparently beat Forest Law, I just stopped playing fighting games for a good year. I can't stand the idea of little kids fighting on remotely the same level as trained professionals, like Paul Phoenix, Marshall Law, King, Heihachi, etc. Especially Lili, who just flips around like a moron and has attacks where she literally flails her arms doing roughly the same damage as a hook from Paul to the face.

Sorry, that's just my biggest pet peeve and I'll try not to be so negative.

Back on topic, yeah, I agree with you. Essentially, most characters who have low life are harder to hit anyways (mostly referring to Gouki), so the life nerf isn't even as detrimental as we may think. Otherwise, low life characters have more mobility, safety and damage output than an average character, which doesn't really help much.

[The Big Daddy C-Master]

Aug 17, 2014 21:07:19 GMT -5 gurpwnder said:

YEah, that's just my biggest pet peeve with fighting games. After I saw Lili's intro in Tekken 5, where she apparently beat Forest Law, I just stopped playing fighting games for a good year. I can't stand the idea of little kids fighting on remotely the same level as trained professionals, like Paul Phoenix, Marshall Law, King, Heihachi, etc. Especially Lili, who just flips around like a moron and has attacks where she literally flails her arms doing roughly the same damage as a hook from Paul to the face.

Sorry, that's just my biggest pet peeve and I'll try not to be so negative.

Back on topic, yeah, I agree with you. Essentially, most characters who have low life are harder to hit anyways (mostly referring to Gouki), so the life nerf isn't even as detrimental as we may think. Otherwise, low life characters have more mobility, safety and damage output than an average character, which doesn't really help much.

Well I look at this stuff as fantasy. They shouldn't be shooting fireballs or anything either. So I can accept the suspension of disbelief.

Low health characters generally have much better defensive and offensive tools which go above and beyond the ability to take a few more hits. Especially in these games where the health difference is small at best.

Aug 17, 2014 20:59:01 GMT -5 JACK-2 said:

Aug 17, 2014 20:43:10 GMT -5 The Big Daddy C-Master said:

There would realistically be no female characters in any fighters, etc.

Epic line lol.

Well if you had the world's strongest male fighters in a tournament no way would any girls be doing it. Unless they're there to look hot, lol.

[gurpwnder]

Yeah, it's certainly an odd design choice for sure. However, I find that in just about any fighting game, the most mobile and safe characters are going to be the best anyways. What benefits can we give to the slower, unsafe brutes?

[The Big Daddy C-Master]

Aug 17, 2014 21:22:50 GMT -5 gurpwnder said:

Yeah, it's certainly an odd design choice for sure. However, I find that in just about any fighting game, the most mobile and safe characters are going to be the best anyways. What benefits can we give to the slower, unsafe brutes?

You can balance it by giving them moves that are better. Really SF holds on to the grappler archetype, where they have to be slow. Kof has Daimon who can rush down and has amazing normals, and Clark who is actually rather fast. Vice is also quick and has an overhead on her set of tools.

It's all about tools, SF denies characters tools and gives them to others with the justification of "health". Health has never made a character good though.


Read this:

shoryuken.com/2012/08/21/thinking-about-design-options-as-the-greatest-resource/

[gurpwnder]

Yeah, I've read this before and I definitely agree with it.

If a character has a hard time landing a hit at all and is given more health to compensate, they'll just take a bit longer to die, so nothing is really helped at all.
Likewise, taking life away from a character, but giving them everything else in return means that they'll get hit even less, and can land many more hits.

However, I haven't seen a large, bulky brute in a fighting game done right. Bowser in Smash 4 is being made better by just making him faster, and I think that's lazy. I want to see a successful brute in a fighting game, but I guess that's never going to happen when movement & safety are the best resources you can have.

[The Big Daddy C-Master]

Aug 17, 2014 21:39:45 GMT -5 gurpwnder said:

Yeah, I've read this before and I definitely agree with it.

If a character has a hard time landing a hit at all and is given more health to compensate, they'll just take a bit longer to die, so nothing is really helped at all.
Likewise, taking life away from a character, but giving them everything else in return means that they'll get hit even less, and can land many more hits.

However, I haven't seen a large, bulky brute in a fighting game done right. Bowser in Smash 4 is being made better by just making him faster, and I think that's lazy. I want to see a successful brute in a fighting game, but I guess that's never going to happen when movement & safety are the best resources you can have.

That's because health doesn't fix strategic problems in matchups. That's why trying to balance with it just leads to more of the same.

Like I said play Daimon and Clark in Kof, I used him in that highlight video I showed you. He has amazing normals and powerful oki. He was actually top tier in Kof 98 because of his air control, great ground footsies and command throw game. A sheer monter.


Grapplers in Kof do NOT feel weak. You might not even call them grapplers once you try them. They have a nice revision on how they work.

[gurpwnder]

Aug 17, 2014 21:47:30 GMT -5 The Big Daddy C-Master said:

Aug 17, 2014 21:39:45 GMT -5 gurpwnder said:

That's because health doesn't fix strategic problems in matchups. That's why trying to balance with it just leads to more of the same.

Like I said play Daimon and Clark in Kof, I used him in that highlight video I showed you. He has amazing normals and powerful oki. He was actually top tier in Kof 98 because of his air control, great ground footsies and command throw game. A sheer monter.


Grapplers in Kof do NOT feel weak. You might not even call them grapplers once you try them. They have a nice revision on how they work.

I've seen Clark, he's awesome. You can delay your backbreaker and are granted armor, which is pretty terrifying.

I'm going to go on a tangent, but I actually somewhat believe in balancing around damage. I believe this because of Ike in Super Smash Bros. Brawl. A well played Ike can REALLY have you scared of whiffing attacks because of how hard he hits. His punishment is severe, and I think this somewhat makes up for his slow movement and slow attacks. However, Smash is a bit different than the average fighter, so I cant't put too much stock in that.

[JACK-2]

Aug 17, 2014 21:22:50 GMT -5 gurpwnder said:

Yeah, it's certainly an odd design choice for sure. However, I find that in just about any fighting game, the most mobile and safe characters are going to be the best anyways. What benefits can we give to the slower, unsafe brutes?

Armor
High damage output

There are alternatives to augmented health.

[The Big Daddy C-Master]

Aug 17, 2014 21:58:19 GMT -5 gurpwnder said:

Aug 17, 2014 21:47:30 GMT -5 The Big Daddy C-Master said:

That's because health doesn't fix strategic problems in matchups. That's why trying to balance with it just leads to more of the same.

Like I said play Daimon and Clark in Kof, I used him in that highlight video I showed you. He has amazing normals and powerful oki. He was actually top tier in Kof 98 because of his air control, great ground footsies and command throw game. A sheer monter.


Grapplers in Kof do NOT feel weak. You might not even call them grapplers once you try them. They have a nice revision on how they work.

I've seen Clark, he's awesome. You can delay your backbreaker and are granted armor, which is pretty terrifying.

I'm going to go on a tangent, but I actually somewhat believe in balancing around damage. I believe this because of Ike in Super Smash Bros. Brawl. A well played Ike can REALLY have you scared of whiffing attacks because of how hard he hits. His punishment is severe, and I think this somewhat makes up for his slow movement and slow attacks. However, Smash is a bit different than the average fighter, so I cant't put too much stock in that.

Clark is also fast and has good normals.

Daimon has great normals that cover serious space and huge damage off of his grabs. He can also grab you out of the air AND off of the ground.

Yuri has a 1f command grab, running command grab, dp, fireball, and divekick.

Vice has a long range grab, a hit confirm off of anything, an overhead, and a lowhop with solid normals.

You can make any type of character good when you focus on it instead of making them superficially balanced and calling it depth.

[gurpwnder]

How do you feel about balancing by damage?

[The Big Daddy C-Master]

Aug 17, 2014 22:05:06 GMT -5 gurpwnder said:

How do you feel about balancing by damage?

That's fine since some characters open up opponents easier or have faster moves. For instance a fast/poking type character won't have as much damage as a power type character who might have weaker normals. Health doesn't have any strategy behind it, you just "have" it and can't apply it. That's the real problem.