Street Fighter 4: Who does it really appeal to?

[gurpwnder]

Aug 16, 2014 16:05:58 GMT -5 The Big Daddy C-Master said:

Aug 16, 2014 15:18:58 GMT -5 gurpwnder said:

Not to mention some sick resets.

Kind of sad how the face of SF3 is completely shafted by a little girl who's at chest height to Alex or stomach height for Hugo, yet can  grab them and choke the shit out of them. She does EVERYTHING he was designed to do, but better. That kind of balance is why I like SF3, but am not in love with it.

[JACK-2]

Like I said, the balance isn't as bad as people make it out to be. 3s is a more player vs player game anyway since universal mechanics [parry] have homogenized the game to a degree. The best 3s player in the world uses a bottom tier character.

[gurpwnder]

You can't say Sean has nearly the same amount of tools as Chun, Yun, Ken, or anyone in the top 10. Sure, he can win, but it's a REALLY uphill battle. When you get down to it, if your character can block and can attack for at least a pixel of damage, they can win. Theoretically, you'd have to never get hit and always hit them and you'd win.

[JACK-2]

Yes, but Sean is the exception to the rule. He's the absolute worst character bare none. He doesn't even get play in low tier domination matches the Japanese do. 99% of the cast is viable and gets play. It's not theory fighter where I'm claiming sean can win because he can take damage. I mean in high level play.

[The Big Daddy C-Master]

Aug 16, 2014 16:23:57 GMT -5 gurpwnder said:

Aug 16, 2014 16:05:58 GMT -5 The Big Daddy C-Master said:

Not to mention some sick resets.

Kind of sad how the face of SF3 is completely shafted by a little girl who's at chest height to Alex or stomach height for Hugo, yet can  grab them and choke the shit out of them. She does EVERYTHING he was designed to do, but better. That kind of balance is why I like SF3, but am not in love with it.

Well I was never a die hard "SF3 is the best ever!" kind of person either, I think it was still a good game, but I don't know how they got the balance so, so wrong.

Did you ever play the Alpha games?

[gurpwnder]

Well, my opinion is DEFINITELY biased, since I main Sean exclusively.

I also main Dan exclusively in SF4, and I feel that he 5-5's a huge chunk of the cast, along with beating Makoto, Sakura, Cody, Dhalsim and some others. Much more than I can say for poor Sean.

[The Big Daddy C-Master]

Aug 16, 2014 16:44:59 GMT -5 gurpwnder said:

Well, my opinion is DEFINITELY biased, since I main Sean exclusively.

I also main Dan exclusively in SF4, and I feel that he 5-5's a huge chunk of the cast, along with beating Makoto, Sakura, Cody, Dhalsim and some others. Much more than I can say for poor Sean.

If Dan 5-5's them, what do you say Ryu does to most of the cast, or Akuma?

[gurpwnder]

Aug 16, 2014 16:44:52 GMT -5 The Big Daddy C-Master said:

Aug 16, 2014 16:23:57 GMT -5 gurpwnder said:

Well I was never a die hard "SF3 is the best ever!" kind of person either, I think it was still a good game, but I don't know how they got the balance so, so wrong.

Did you ever play the Alpha games?

I didn't really play them much at all. I don't really like what little I've played, though. The changes to fireballs really bugs me. Fireballs are a long ranged tool. Why in blue blazes do they do less damage from further away? Characters like Sakura clearly take advantage of the system much better than characters like R.Mika. Not a big fan of the game being shifted to emphasize huge combos. Stuff like Cr.MK xx fireball do almost nothing now. Those, along with other quirks really pushed me away from those games.

[JACK-2]

Aug 16, 2014 16:44:59 GMT -5 gurpwnder said:

Well, my opinion is DEFINITELY biased, since I main Sean exclusively.

I also main Dan exclusively in SF4, and I feel that he 5-5's a huge chunk of the cast, along with beating Makoto, Sakura, Cody, Dhalsim and some others. Much more than I can say for poor Sean.

My cousin mained sean for years. But, I agree. He stands no chance.

[The Big Daddy C-Master]

Aug 16, 2014 16:27:32 GMT -5 JACK-2 said:

Like I said, the balance isn't as bad as people make it out to be. 3s is a more player vs player game anyway since universal mechanics [parry] have homogenized the game to a degree. The best 3s player in the world uses a bottom tier character.

Well people like to use the argument about the universal mechanics making games balanced, ala Kof XIII. The problem is that the characters have to be able to play "their game". If they can't do that then it won't be balanced.

Lots of games have universal mechanics and aren't balanced. Alpha 3 had them, some of the less balanced Kof's had them, etc. But the problem in the less balanced games is that the universal systems tend to favor certain characters over others, characters who are usually better anyways.

Parrying might have shifted the metagame even more since Chun Li for instance loves it with her defensive play. Good players can use bad characters and it doesn't affect their skill, SF3 isn't played widespread anymore so the sample size will be different. If players were playing this game on a large scale they'd be more likely to choose better characters more often.

[The Big Daddy C-Master]

Aug 16, 2014 16:54:57 GMT -5 gurpwnder said:

Aug 16, 2014 16:44:52 GMT -5 The Big Daddy C-Master said:

Well I was never a die hard "SF3 is the best ever!" kind of person either, I think it was still a good game, but I don't know how they got the balance so, so wrong.

Did you ever play the Alpha games?

I didn't really play them much at all. I don't really like what little I've played, though. The changes to fireballs really bugs me. Fireballs are a long ranged tool. Why the blue blazes do they do less damage from further away? Characters like Sakura clearly take advantage of the system much better than characters like R.Mika. Not a big fan of the agme being shifted to emphasize huge combos. Stuff like Cr.MK xx fireball do almost nothing now. Those, along with other quirks really pushed me away from those games.

Yea Alpha was far more momentum based than the other SF games, though people like Alpha 2 if they want to play a more "traditional" game.

[JACK-2]

Aug 16, 2014 16:54:57 GMT -5 gurpwnder said:

I didn't really play them much at all. I don't really like what little I've played, though. The changes to fireballs really bugs me. Fireballs are a long ranged tool. Why the blue blazes do they do less damage from further away? Characters like Sakura clearly take advantage of the system much better than characters like R.Mika. Not a big fan of the agme being shifted to emphasize huge combos. Stuff like Cr.MK xx fireball do almost nothing now. Those, along with other quirks really pushed me away from those games.

I was on usenet once and I remember reading the complaints on how fireballs in SF have become watered down. They're weaker and don't stun anymore. So, as a zoning tool they're become worthless.

[gurpwnder]

Aug 16, 2014 16:50:50 GMT -5 The Big Daddy C-Master said:

Aug 16, 2014 16:44:59 GMT -5 gurpwnder said:

Well, my opinion is DEFINITELY biased, since I main Sean exclusively.

I also main Dan exclusively in SF4, and I feel that he 5-5's a huge chunk of the cast, along with beating Makoto, Sakura, Cody, Dhalsim and some others. Much more than I can say for poor Sean.

If Dan 5-5's them, what do you say Ryu does to most of the cast, or Akuma?

Well, Ryu can't say 'fuck your anti-airs' like Dan can with his air knee. He also doesn't have variable pressure moves like Dan does with the godly Dan kicks. You know that I'm a huge Dan up-player.

[JACK-2]

Aug 16, 2014 16:57:55 GMT -5 The Big Daddy C-Master said:

Well people like to use the argument about the universal mechanics making games balanced, ala Kof XIII. The problem is that the characters have to be able to play "their game". If they can't do that then it won't be balanced.

Lots of games have universal mechanics and aren't balanced. Alpha 3 had them, some of the less balanced Kof's had them, etc. But the problem in the less balanced games is that the universal systems tend to favor certain characters over others, characters who are usually better anyways.

Parrying might have shifted the metagame even more since Chun Li for instance loves it with her defensive play. Good players can use bad characters and it doesn't affect their skill, SF3 isn't played widespread anymore so the sample size will be different. If players were playing this game on a large scale they'd be more likely to choose better characters more often.

I tend to agree, I'm not a fan of universal mechanics being used to balance a game. But, it sorta works for 3s as for chun. You're right about her being defensive is too her advantage. But, I was worried about Ken with his Rush downs. Without parry lower tier characters would be screwed.



Also, 3S isn't as wide spread as it was, but then again the scene outside Japan was crap anyway.

[The Big Daddy C-Master]

Aug 16, 2014 16:59:23 GMT -5 JACK-2 said:

Aug 16, 2014 16:54:57 GMT -5 gurpwnder said:

I didn't really play them much at all. I don't really like what little I've played, though. The changes to fireballs really bugs me. Fireballs are a long ranged tool. Why the blue blazes do they do less damage from further away? Characters like Sakura clearly take advantage of the system much better than characters like R.Mika. Not a big fan of the agme being shifted to emphasize huge combos. Stuff like Cr.MK xx fireball do almost nothing now. Those, along with other quirks really pushed me away from those games.

I was on usenet once and I remember reading the complaints on how fireballs in SF have become watered down. They're weaker and don't stun anymore. So, as a zoning tool they're become worthless.

Zoning in SF4 is weak for a lot of reasons due to the concessions they made to help bad players not to mention the fact that like 1/2 the moves are projectile invincible.

[The Big Daddy C-Master]

Aug 16, 2014 17:00:29 GMT -5 gurpwnder said:

Aug 16, 2014 16:50:50 GMT -5 The Big Daddy C-Master said:

If Dan 5-5's them, what do you say Ryu does to most of the cast, or Akuma?

Well, Ryu can't say 'fuck your anti-airs' like Dan can with his air knee. He also doesn't have variable pressure moves like Dan does with the godly Dan kicks. You know that I'm a huge Dan up-player.

I have to admire you for supporting him though, most wouldn't.

[The Big Daddy C-Master]

Aug 16, 2014 17:01:55 GMT -5 JACK-2 said:

Aug 16, 2014 16:57:55 GMT -5 The Big Daddy C-Master said:

Well people like to use the argument about the universal mechanics making games balanced, ala Kof XIII. The problem is that the characters have to be able to play "their game". If they can't do that then it won't be balanced.

Lots of games have universal mechanics and aren't balanced. Alpha 3 had them, some of the less balanced Kof's had them, etc. But the problem in the less balanced games is that the universal systems tend to favor certain characters over others, characters who are usually better anyways.

Parrying might have shifted the metagame even more since Chun Li for instance loves it with her defensive play. Good players can use bad characters and it doesn't affect their skill, SF3 isn't played widespread anymore so the sample size will be different. If players were playing this game on a large scale they'd be more likely to choose better characters more often.

I tend to agree, I'm not a fan of universal mechanics being used to balance a game. But, it sorta works for 3s as for chun. You're right about her being defensive is too her advantage. But, I was worried about Ken with his Rush downs. Without parry lower tier characters would be screwed.



Also, 3S isn't as wide spread as it was, but then again the scene outside Japan was crap anyway.

Well I don't mind universal mechanics per se, I just think it takes more than that to balance a game. Nowadays every game has at least a decent amount of universal mechanics. In Kof XIII Mai can play her game just like Karate can, even if Karate is all around better. In badly balanced games some characters just can't do what they're meant to do because the top characters are just so much better.

[JACK-2]

Aug 16, 2014 17:02:13 GMT -5 The Big Daddy C-Master said:

Zoning in SF4 is weak for a lot of reasons due to the concessions they made to help bad players not to mention the fact that like 1/2 the moves are projectile invincible.

That's really bad game design. Who made this game lol?


I remember arguing some moron claiming SF3 doesn't have zoning and SF4 is one of the games that has true zoning or whatever.

[gurpwnder]

Aug 16, 2014 17:03:18 GMT -5 The Big Daddy C-Master said:

Aug 16, 2014 17:00:29 GMT -5 gurpwnder said:

Well, Ryu can't say 'fuck your anti-airs' like Dan can with his air knee. He also doesn't have variable pressure moves like Dan does with the godly Dan kicks. You know that I'm a huge Dan up-player.

I have to admire you for supporting him though, most wouldn't.

Thanks. I upplay him because everyone else downplays the character to hell. "Oh, Sakura beats Dan because it's Dan lolz". Sakura's amazing anti-air in cr.HP is absolutely worthless against Dan because of air knee, which means I get free jump ins that knock down. If I knee her on her wakeup, she either has to accept it, or spend a bar to ex. shouken me for 10 damage (assuming I'm airbourne). The only reason I wouldn't say Dan tears her to shreds is because I think she's a bullshit character, so if she gets her game going VS Dan, his 900 stun is going to get him wrecked. Dan has an invincible KRK though, and she has to respect it.

Basically, Dan's a bully. If you have shoddy defensive tools, Dan will go to town on you. That's definitely something I can say that Ryu can't do, Ken can't do (poor SF4 Ken, the worst version of Ken I've ever seen) and something that makes Dan very viable.

[The Big Daddy C-Master]

Aug 16, 2014 17:06:20 GMT -5 JACK-2 said:

Aug 16, 2014 17:02:13 GMT -5 The Big Daddy C-Master said:

Zoning in SF4 is weak for a lot of reasons due to the concessions they made to help bad players not to mention the fact that like 1/2 the moves are projectile invincible.

That's really bad game design. Who made this game lol?


I remember arguing some moron claiming SF3 doesn't have zoning and SF4 is one of the games that has true zoning or whatever.

Lol like every other ex move, super, or ultra goes through fireballs. Daigo was even talking about it. The "stop throwing fireballs" bro crowed is very vocal it seems.

If people don't want to be bothered with zoning they'll smply do their anti-zoning ultra and hit you for 500 damage. Gotta love that depth and those "amazing mechanics".

[The Big Daddy C-Master]

Aug 16, 2014 17:23:36 GMT -5 gurpwnder said:

Aug 16, 2014 17:03:18 GMT -5 The Big Daddy C-Master said:

I have to admire you for supporting him though, most wouldn't.

Thanks. I upplay him because everyone else downplays the character to hell. "Oh, Sakura beats Dan because it's Dan lolz". Sakura's amazing anti-air in cr.HP is absolutely worthless against Dan because of air knee, which means I get free jump ins that knock down. If I knee her on her wakeup, she either has to accept it, or spend a bar to ex. shouken me for 10 damage (assuming I'm airbourne). The only reason I wouldn't say Dan tears her to shreds is because I think she's a bullshit character, so if she gets her game going VS Dan, his 900 stun is going to get him wrecked. Dan has an invincible KRK though, and she has to respect it.

Basically, Dan's a bully. If you have shoddy defensive tools, Dan will go to town on you. That's definitely something I can say that Ryu can't do, Ken can't do (poor SF4 Ken, the worst version of Ken I've ever seen) and something that makes Dan very viable.

Dan kicks are pretty awesome, they're almost like a charge move that doesn't need charging.

People do that with tier lists which is why they're dumb. " Cammy wins because she's Cammy, Evil Ryu has 950 health so he wins herp derp."

The eventhubs tier list will stay bad as the game changes because the sheer amount of people who voted early will make it hard for the game to shift because of the numbers stacking so much early on making the average hard to change later and most won't go back and change theirs.

[gurpwnder]

Aug 16, 2014 17:26:20 GMT -5 The Big Daddy C-Master said:

Aug 16, 2014 17:06:20 GMT -5 JACK-2 said:

That's really bad game design. Who made this game lol?


I remember arguing some moron claiming SF3 doesn't have zoning and SF4 is one of the games that has true zoning or whatever.

Lol like every other ex move, super, or ultra goes through fireballs. Daigo was even talking about it. The "stop throwing fireballs" bro crowed is very vocal it seems.

If people don't want to be bothered with zoning they'll smply do their anti-zoning ultra and hit you for 500 damage. Gotta love that depth and those "amazing mechanics".

Yeah, focusing through fireballs was already a pretty good tool for characters who had trouble getting in, since they move forward AND take zero 'true' damage without leaving themselves open to an anti-air SRK.

I think the reason Ultras are so invincible is because they are meant to be done raw. Since you can't cancel into Ultras (no idea why, cancelling into level 3 supers was always fine in Street Fighter, but whatever), they had to give the players more ways to get them to connect.

[JACK-2]

Aug 16, 2014 17:26:20 GMT -5 The Big Daddy C-Master said:

Lol like every other ex move, super, or ultra goes through fireballs. Daigo was even talking about it. The "stop throwing fireballs" bro crowed is very vocal it seems.

If people don't want to be bothered with zoning they'll smply do their anti-zoning ultra and hit you for 500 damage. Gotta love that depth and those "amazing mechanics".

It would be one thing for projectiles to be watered down. But, most moves go through projectiles and that a-hole had the nerve to claim SF3 has no zoning because of parry? This is why I dislike SF4 fans. It's like a religion.

[The Big Daddy C-Master]

Aug 16, 2014 17:30:53 GMT -5 gurpwnder said:

Aug 16, 2014 17:26:20 GMT -5 The Big Daddy C-Master said:

Lol like every other ex move, super, or ultra goes through fireballs. Daigo was even talking about it. The "stop throwing fireballs" bro crowed is very vocal it seems.

If people don't want to be bothered with zoning they'll smply do their anti-zoning ultra and hit you for 500 damage. Gotta love that depth and those "amazing mechanics".

Yeah, focusing through fireballs was already a pretty good tool for characters who had trouble getting in, since they move forward AND take zero 'true' damage without leaving themselves open to an anti-air SRK.

I think the reason Ultras are so invincible is because they are meant to be done raw. Since you can't cancel into Ultras (no idea why, cancelling into level 3 supers was always fine in Street Fighter, but whatever), they had to give the players more ways to get them to connect.

Well some characters were much better at comboing into ultra compared to others. Rufus and Viper are good examples. Now you have red focus which makes it even easier now. The invincibilty is expected but moves just blazing through projectiles and leading to huge reward is just nonsense.

[gurpwnder]

Aug 16, 2014 17:34:47 GMT -5 The Big Daddy C-Master said:

Aug 16, 2014 17:30:53 GMT -5 gurpwnder said:

Yeah, focusing through fireballs was already a pretty good tool for characters who had trouble getting in, since they move forward AND take zero 'true' damage without leaving themselves open to an anti-air SRK.

I think the reason Ultras are so invincible is because they are meant to be done raw. Since you can't cancel into Ultras (no idea why, cancelling into level 3 supers was always fine in Street Fighter, but whatever), they had to give the players more ways to get them to connect.

Well some characters were much better at comboing into ultra compared to others. Rufus and Viper are good examples. Now you have red focus which makes it even easier now. The invincibilty is expected but moves just blazing through projectiles and leading to huge reward is just nonsense.

Absolutely. Look at Rolento, Elena, Hugo and Poison. Several 1 bar launchers that perfectly juggle / link into a full damage Ultra, while Honda has to burn 3 to combo into Ultra (might as well just save up another bar to combo hands into super for more damage). Newcomer Poison gets a 0f command grab, but Honda - who actually DID have a zero frame orochi breaker in CVS2 - has a 2f U2. Lots of questionable balancing going on here.

To be fair, characters like Sean could SA3 (Hyper Tornade) through fireballs in 3rd strike, or Ken with SA3 (Shippu Jinraikyaku)

[The Big Daddy C-Master]

Aug 16, 2014 17:40:58 GMT -5 gurpwnder said:

Aug 16, 2014 17:34:47 GMT -5 The Big Daddy C-Master said:

Well some characters were much better at comboing into ultra compared to others. Rufus and Viper are good examples. Now you have red focus which makes it even easier now. The invincibilty is expected but moves just blazing through projectiles and leading to huge reward is just nonsense.

Absolutely. Look at Rolento, Elena, Hugo and Poison. Several 1 bar launchers that perfectly juggle / link into a full damage Ultra, while Honda has to burn 3 to combo into Ultra (might as well just save up another bar to combo hands into super for more damage). Newcomer Poison gets a 0f command grab, but Honda - who actually DID have a zero frame orochi breaker in CVS2 - has a 2f U2. Lots of questionable balancing going on here.

To be fair, characters like Sean could SA3 (Hyper Tornade) through fireballs in 3rd strike, or Ken with SA3 (Shippu Jinraikyaku)

Having specific moves go through fireballs properly timed isn't bad, but these are so easy to land and do high damage.


I thought Poison's command grab was 2 frames of start up, but I could be wrong. You can jump out of it but it keeps you from safe jumping her.

Everyone can combo into ultra now, though some are still better. Honda is better at sitting on his ass with a health lead and SF is defensive enough lol.

[JACK-2]

Aug 16, 2014 17:40:58 GMT -5 gurpwnder said:

To be fair, characters like Sean could SA3 (Hyper Tornade) through fireballs in 3rd strike, or Ken with SA3 (Shippu Jinraikyaku)

Only on start up and at a specific range. I don't remember ken being able to SA through projectiles, do you mean Chun with Houyoku sen?

[gurpwnder]

Aug 16, 2014 17:44:51 GMT -5 The Big Daddy C-Master said:

Aug 16, 2014 17:40:58 GMT -5 gurpwnder said:

Absolutely. Look at Rolento, Elena, Hugo and Poison. Several 1 bar launchers that perfectly juggle / link into a full damage Ultra, while Honda has to burn 3 to combo into Ultra (might as well just save up another bar to combo hands into super for more damage). Newcomer Poison gets a 0f command grab, but Honda - who actually DID have a zero frame orochi breaker in CVS2 - has a 2f U2. Lots of questionable balancing going on here.

To be fair, characters like Sean could SA3 (Hyper Tornade) through fireballs in 3rd strike, or Ken with SA3 (Shippu Jinraikyaku)

Having specific moves go through fireballs properly timed isn't bad, but these are so easy to land and do high damage.


I thought Poison's command grab was 2 frames of start up, but I could be wrong. You can jump out of it but it keeps you from safe jumping her.

Everyone can combo into ultra now, though some are still better. Honda is better at sitting on his ass with a health lead and SF is defensive enough lol.

Yeah, I think I'm wrong about her U2 being 0 frames.

Also don't like to see that Ultra freeze EVERY time. 5 years in, and seeing Ryu say 'Metsu..." and zooming into his face isn't really hype. Old super freezes took half a second, but the hype was still there. If a player has 0% life, but manages to combo something like Cl.HP xx level 3 super, the crowd will still get hype.

[The Big Daddy C-Master]

Aug 16, 2014 17:49:27 GMT -5 gurpwnder said:

Aug 16, 2014 17:44:51 GMT -5 The Big Daddy C-Master said:

Having specific moves go through fireballs properly timed isn't bad, but these are so easy to land and do high damage.


I thought Poison's command grab was 2 frames of start up, but I could be wrong. You can jump out of it but it keeps you from safe jumping her.

Everyone can combo into ultra now, though some are still better. Honda is better at sitting on his ass with a health lead and SF is defensive enough lol.

Yeah, I think I'm wrong about her U2 being 0 frames.

Also don't like to see that Ultra freeze EVERY time. 5 years in, and seeing Ryu say 'Metsu..." and zooming into his face isn't really hype. Old super freezes took half a second, but the hype was still there. If a player has 0% life, but manages to combo something like Cl.HP xx level 3 super, the crowd will still get hype.

Yes, the long cinematic ultras are there to attract casuals but it takes too long. I like them nice and fast like this:



Go to 1:06.

[JACK-2]

Aug 16, 2014 17:56:14 GMT -5 The Big Daddy C-Master said:

Yes, the long cinematic ultras are there to attract casuals but it takes too long. I like them nice and fast like this:



Go to 1:06.

Quick, but dramatic. Modern games should learn a thing or two.