More SF4 Idiocy

[gurpwnder]

LOL

Just remember guys, I think that SF4 is the best selling SF to date. We're going to have to expect that SF5 will resemble 4 more than it will resemble 3 or anything before.

[The Big Daddy C-Master]

Aug 20, 2014 19:04:15 GMT -5 gurpwnder said:

LOL

Just remember guys, I think that SF4 is the best selling SF to date. We're going to have to expect that SF5 will resemble 4 more than it will resemble 3 or anything before.

I thought that 2 was the best selling once you include all of the versions. The fighting game craze was huge when SF2 was out. It was the peak time for fighters.

[JACK-2]

Aug 20, 2014 19:04:15 GMT -5 gurpwnder said:

LOL

Just remember guys, I think that SF4 is the best selling SF to date. We're going to have to expect that SF5 will resemble 4 more than it will resemble 3 or anything before.

SF2 is still the highest I recall [Thank God]. But, yeah SF4 is number 2 so I expect it to get worst.

[gurpwnder]

To truly make a beginner friendly fighting game, Capcom should consider making OPTIONAL input shortcuts, a small buffer window for normals (seriously, even the most hardcore street fighter player will drop 1-frame links, how do they expect a new player to deal with them?!) and most importantly a tutorial mode. Perhaps viewable hit / hurtboxes in training mode.

For example, look at the Tekken movelist. You have moves like Paul's Demolition Man that require special timing to perform correctly (and more precise timing will give you more damage with the just-frame).
I ask for 5 second of your time to watch how the command list actually makes an audible sound when each button is meant to be pressed.



SF could use something like that. With the tutorial mode, actually take a player through SF step by step. Show them how to guard and what each gaurd is weak to. Show them how to cancel a normal into a special. Tell them that not every normal is special cancellable and that they should experiment to find out.

[The Big Daddy C-Master]

Aug 20, 2014 19:07:04 GMT -5 JACK-2 said:

Aug 20, 2014 19:04:15 GMT -5 gurpwnder said:

LOL

Just remember guys, I think that SF4 is the best selling SF to date. We're going to have to expect that SF5 will resemble 4 more than it will resemble 3 or anything before.

SF2 is still the highest I recall [Thank God]. But, yeah SF4 is number 2 so I expect it to get worst.

They'll decline in quality until they sink their own ship. I just hope people try out other quality games this time.

[The Big Daddy C-Master]

Aug 20, 2014 19:14:50 GMT -5 gurpwnder said:

To truly make a beginner friendly fighting game, Capcom should consider making OPTIONAL input shortcuts, a small buffer window for normals (seriously, even the most hardcore street fighter player will drop 1-frame links, how do they expect a new player to deal with them?!) and most importantly a tutorial mode. Perhaps viewable hit / hurtboxes in training mode.

For example, look at the Tekken movelist. You have moves like Paul's Demolition Man that require special timing to perform correctly (and more precise timing will give you more damage with the just-frame).
I ask for 5 second of your time to watch how the command list actually makes an audible sound when each button is meant to be pressed.



SF could use something like that. With the tutorial mode, actually take a player through SF step by step. Show them how to guard and what each gaurd is weak to. Show them how to cancel a normal into a special. Tell them that not every normal is special cancellable and that they should experiment to find out.

Virtua Fighter also has a very good tutorial mode. I found it amazing people were saying you should "hit the lab" more for 1f stuff, but somehow mashing nonstop[ is good.

I don't think SF has the interest in making a good tutorial, they just make trials.

Actually DoA has a decent tutorial mode as well where you try until you get it right. Many good examples.

[gurpwnder]

Yeah, and the trials aren't too helpful. There are probably trials like Cr.LK, Cr.LK, Cr.LP xx special somewhere in there, and players are given no indication that Cr.LK -> Cr.LK is chainable, but chaining the 2nd Cr.LK -> Cr.LP will ruin your combo. It's dumb.

When I started SF4, I did many trials by just mashing. I didn't learn anything. It took me about a year or more to actually start implementing basic combos. I spend the first year getting my behind handed to me only doing things like fishing for a focus crumple -> sweep or J.HK -> sweep.

[The Big Daddy C-Master]

Aug 20, 2014 19:55:40 GMT -5 gurpwnder said:

Yeah, and the trials aren't too helpful. There are probably trials like Cr.LK, Cr.LK, Cr.LP xx special somewhere in there, and players are given no indication that Cr.LK -> Cr.LK is chainable, but chaining the 2nd Cr.LK -> Cr.LP will ruin your combo. It's dumb.

Which is why it's artificial difficulty. Stuff that should be really easy ends up being harder than necessary for newer players due to the contrived linking system. They come up with phony difficulty for combos but they allow brainless mashing. It makes no sense.

[gurpwnder]

I think just putting the Tekken style movelist for the trials would help out SOOO much. Players could visually SEE and HEAR the difference between a link and a chain by how far apart the buttons are pressed. You could teach people how to cancel like that, it would be awesome.

[The Big Daddy C-Master]

Aug 20, 2014 20:18:41 GMT -5 gurpwnder said:

I think just putting the Tekken style movelist for the trials would help out SOOO much. Players could visually SEE and HEAR the difference between a link and a chain by how far apart the buttons are pressed. You could teach people how to cancel like that, it would be awesome.

Capcom has always had a lazy tutorial. Hell their training mode is lazier than it was in CvS2 where you had FAR more options. The whole game smacks of lazy.

[gurpwnder]

They added 'simulated lag' in USF4, but didn't add an option for the dummy to delayed wakeup. Goshdangit Capcom....

[The Big Daddy C-Master]

Aug 20, 2014 20:34:50 GMT -5 gurpwnder said:

They added 'simulated lag' in USF4, but didn't add an option for the dummy to delayed wakeup. Goshdangit Capcom....

Does anybody bother with simulated lag? Lag is almost never consistent unless it comes from a device.

Pretty pointless if you ask me.

[gurpwnder]

Yeah.

In all honesty, I feel pretty bad for Capcom's Combofiend because he's a community representative, but everyone just blames him when something goes wrong, like he programmed everything himself.

[The Big Daddy C-Master]

The same with any leadership position.

[gurpwnder]

Read the comment section here:
www.eventhubs.com/news/2014/aug/20/blocked-soul-spiral-hadouken-block-string-evil-ryus-kara-raging-demon-allows-him-punish-more-youd-think-usf4/#comments

Specifically 'bagel_bytez's comments. You agree with him? Disagree?

I like the fact that he wants the game to be more 'raw' (sorry for the lack of a better word). Enough of storing multiple inputs to automatically deal with multiple situations, I'd like to see an Ultra VS a backdash to be done as a READ, not as predetermined event.

Kara's I'm not so sure where to stand. You're cancelling a move that moves you forward into something else and if they stayed this long, perhaps they're intentional.

Street Fighter = chess? I would say that the most 'chess-like' game is Soul Calibur 2, but that's just me.

[The Big Daddy C-Master]

I thought I replied to this before, stupid internet.

I agree with his overall comment about option selects being brain dead. However I don't agree with his assessment that crouch teching is ok. It just makes defense braindead and ruins basic mixups in the game by forcing you to frame trap. Newer players like it because it allows defense to be more braindead.

Kara's aren't really a problem. You can do it in Kof to add to your mixup game.

SF4 is more like Rock-Paper-Scissors due to the limited options. Not very chess like. I'd say Virtua Fighter Chess Like though. Why do you think Soul Calibur 2 is chess like if I might ask?

[gurpwnder]

Yeah, crouch teching sucks. Characters like Sakura can start entire combos off a hit-confirmed cr.LK and entire mixups like Rufus' divekick or throw can be completely circumvented by Ryu's Cr.HP + LP + LK.
I'd prefer if throws could only be teched standing, it would definitely help a lot.

I like Soul Calibur the most because there's so much to consider, but you have a defense against ALL of it.
Highs? Duckable and punishable.
Lows? Jumpable and punishable.
Mids? If they're vertical, sidestep and punish. If unsafe, block and punish.
Safe mids? GI and punish.
GI'd? Predict and re-GI them.
Need to drain their entire lifebar with one hit? Ring them out.
Grabs are true 50/50's, but are duckable

Characters also have archetypes, which is awesome since they all work effectively at different ranges.
Astaroth, the grappler is quite effective since he has some of the best ring-out potential, has excellent range and damage, and his grabs are quite deadly.

[The Big Daddy C-Master]

Aug 22, 2014 17:19:51 GMT -5 gurpwnder said:

Yeah, crouch teching sucks. Characters like Sakura can start entire combos off a hit-confirmed cr.LK and entire mixups like Rufus' divekick or throw can be completely circumvented by Ryu's Cr.HP + LP + LK.
I'd prefer if throws could only be teched standing, it would definitely help a lot.

I like Soul Calibur the most because there's so much to consider, but you have a defense against ALL of it.
Highs? Duckable and punishable.
Lows? Jumpable and punishable.
Mids? If they're vertical, sidestep and punish. If unsafe, block and punish.
Safe mids? GI and punish.
GI'd? Predict and re-GI them.
Need to drain their entire lifebar with one hit? Ring them out.
Grabs are true 50/50's, but are duckable

Characters also have archetypes, which is awesome since they all work effectively at different ranges.
Astaroth, the grappler is quite effective since he has some of the best ring-out potential, has excellent range and damage, and his grabs are quite deadly.

Exactly, then every character would have a mixup through throw+low and you'd have more pacing in the game vs the time out fest that you have now (even at Evo). I wasn't sure if they had done anything about triple plinking, but I thought someone said that they did. It's silly that they still have it though.

Good fighters are chess like when they have options you can use and ways around it. One of the reasons I like KoF, is because it's really balanced and you have a lot of options offensive and defensive wise and there are always ways around them. There is no "one way move strategy". You have to know how to play the game properly to get the most out of it.

Virtua Fighter is like that too and GG is pretty deep as well, hence why I like them so much.

[gurpwnder]

To be fair to Capcom, they tried (somewhat) to fix the whole 1-frame link thing in X Tekken by offering players a 1 frame buffer after most normals, but this just created '0 frame links' instead. Even had it worked perfectly, a 1 frame buffer window isn't too helpful.

[The Big Daddy C-Master]

Aug 24, 2014 1:04:55 GMT -5 gurpwnder said:

To be fair to Capcom, they tried (somewhat) to fix the whole 1-frame link thing in X Tekken by offering players a 1 frame buffer after most normals, but this just created '0 frame links' instead. Even had it worked perfectly, a 1 frame buffer window isn't too helpful.

Outside of the auto stuff, combos felt about the same to me, with more juggling.

SFxT had the auto combos for less damage, so combos weren't an issue for bad players anyways.

[gurpwnder]

A lot of balance changes seem to be done in a vacuum, and I don't like it.

Why do both Ryu and Ken have stronger Hadokens than E.Ryu?
Why can Ryu and Gouken cancel j.MP into air tatsu, but not E.Ryu?

Isn't Evil Ryu supposed to be Ryu infused with the power of Satsui no Hado? What happened here? Why are his Hadokens WEAKER when they were stronger in CVS2?
Why are Ken's Hadokens doing as much as a Gadoken now?

[The Big Daddy C-Master]

Sept 24, 2014 0:10:48 GMT -5 gurpwnder said:

A lot of balance changes seem to be done in a vacuum, and I don't like it.

Why do both Ryu and Ken have stronger Hadokens than E.Ryu?
Why can Ryu and Gouken cancel j.MP into air tatsu, but not E.Ryu?

Isn't Evil Ryu supposed to be Ryu infused with the power of Satsui no Hado? What happened here? Why are his Hadokens WEAKER when they were stronger in CVS2?
Why are Ken's Hadokens doing as much as a Gadoken now?

I love CvS2 Evil Ryu and his fireballs. It would have been a lost cause bringing that up in regards to Evil Ryu, everyone was going on about how god mode he was, until very recently it seems. Some of the sentiment has died down now as finally people realized he was overhyped to oblivion.

I guess they were trying to balance it based on power and not "He's this character", etc. Then again they seemed to make Dee Jay still mediocre so who knows.

[gurpwnder]

Not in terms of frames, was just talking about the damage values alone.

Ken's historically had the weakest fireballs of any shoto, now he's tying with Ryu and Dan and beating both Gouki and E.Ryu

[The Big Daddy C-Master]

Sept 25, 2014 12:59:50 GMT -5 gurpwnder said:

Not in terms of frames, was just talking about the damage values alone.

Ken's historically had the weakest fireballs of any shoto, now he's tying with Ryu and Dan and beating both Gouki and E.Ryu

Hell at least Gouki has the air fireball and triple fireball.

What gets me though is that Ken isn't a fireball character, he's a mixup character.