Presentation of Powers in Anime/Manga

[The Big Daddy C-Master]

This is something that has been on my mind in a while. I've seen many vs debates with anime styled characters and it inevitably gets into scaling and whatnot. One thing that was on my mind was that the presentation of the powers in the series could have an affect on how we view them.

For instance people like to do Sensui vs DBZ debates. Sensui was strong and he had immense power going by his own universe but he didn't display it in nearly as destructive a manner as dbz characters do (aside from powering up at low power). They fought on Demon world which was much more durable than normal world. Is there any accurate way to really gauge him against a DBZ character who are more destructive overall? After all most shows don't have characters blowing up planets or anything close, it's usually listed or stated (they also don't have the convenient magic dragon that brings things back). Does that mean they really aren't that strong?

What are your thoughts?

[JACK-2]

This a big problem with versus and why I quit. Dbz and certain anime and manga series have their own internally consistent power system. For example, in DBZ everyone is using the same power set [Chi] and as they grow stronger all their base stats: Speed, strength, durability, combat skills, sense, etc all shoot up. This is why in DBZ you can infer someones stats by looking at one particular feat, for most DBZ fans it's Destructive Capacity. Because the system is completely hierarchical. If character X can blow up a larger planet than character y than character X not only has more DC. But, is stronger over all since his stats would be proportionate to everything else.

Comics don't do that. Superheroes specialize in specific sets of powers. You have your speedster who has speed, Bricks that have Super Strength and durability, Energy manipulators who have energy output, and Street Levelers that are great in close quarters combat. You can have high DC, but every other stat can be weaker. DBZ fans who only read DBZ don't get that.

[The Big Daddy C-Master]

Right, and comic logic dictates that if a character hasn't done something on panel we shouldn't automatically assume they can.

My problem specifically with DBZ is that their fans want to use planet busting at every turn even when characters haven't shown it, but dismiss characters of other entites of being able to do it. I mean most shows simply don't blow up the Earth because it would be bad for plot (unless they reverted it, or it was just a dream). Many uber characters never do it in DC, Marvel, or other anime. The author wanted S classes in Yu Yu to be a certain level, but based on DBZ logic if they aren't crapping out planet busting attacks they are like hill buster level.

At the same time DBZ has its own inconsistencies that get ignored in favor of planetary scaling. DBZ characters don't show as much lifting strength as other series do, and they have other issues like SS2 Maijin Vegeta not blowing up the planet when he self destructed. Which is always ignored.

We have to make some concessions in cross debates, but one side always wants to pick and choose. This I don't like.

[JACK-2]

Dec 12, 2014 19:57:49 GMT -5 The Big Daddy C-Master said:

Right, and comic logic dictates that if a character hasn't done something on panel we shouldn't automatically assume they can.

Exactly.

Dec 12, 2014 19:57:49 GMT -5 The Big Daddy C-Master said:

My problem specifically with DBZ is that their fans want to use planet busting at every turn even when characters haven't shown it, but dismiss characters of other entites of being able to do it. I mean most shows simply don't blow up the Earth because it would be bad for plot (unless they reverted it, or it was just a dream). Many uber characters never do it in DC, Marvel, or other anime. The author wanted S classes in Yu Yu to be a certain level, but based on DBZ logic if they aren't crapping out planet busting attacks they are like hill buster level.

At the same time DBZ has its own inconsistencies that get ignored in favor of planetary scaling. DBZ characters don't show as much lifting strength as other series do, and they have other issues like SS2 Maijin Vegeta not blowing up the planet when he self destructed. Which is always ignored.

We have to make some concessions in cross debates, but one side always wants to pick and choose. This I don't like.

DBZ fans never want to make concessions from what I've seen. Examples: They want to use the anime because of the high-ends like King Vegeta destroying planets. But, not low ends like Goku getting hurt by a rock. They refuse to read comics and always defer to respect threads, etc.

[The Big Daddy C-Master]

Dec 12, 2014 20:13:26 GMT -5 JACK-2 said:

Dec 12, 2014 19:57:49 GMT -5 The Big Daddy C-Master said:

Right, and comic logic dictates that if a character hasn't done something on panel we shouldn't automatically assume they can.

Exactly.

Dec 12, 2014 19:57:49 GMT -5 The Big Daddy C-Master said:

My problem specifically with DBZ is that their fans want to use planet busting at every turn even when characters haven't shown it, but dismiss characters of other entites of being able to do it. I mean most shows simply don't blow up the Earth because it would be bad for plot (unless they reverted it, or it was just a dream). Many uber characters never do it in DC, Marvel, or other anime. The author wanted S classes in Yu Yu to be a certain level, but based on DBZ logic if they aren't crapping out planet busting attacks they are like hill buster level.

At the same time DBZ has its own inconsistencies that get ignored in favor of planetary scaling. DBZ characters don't show as much lifting strength as other series do, and they have other issues like SS2 Maijin Vegeta not blowing up the planet when he self destructed. Which is always ignored.

We have to make some concessions in cross debates, but one side always wants to pick and choose. This I don't like.

DBZ fans never want to make concessions from what I've seen. Examples: They want to use the anime because of the high-ends like King Vegeta destroying planets. But, not low ends like Goku getting hurt by a rock. They refuse to read comics and always defer to respect threads, etc.

DBZ is one of the most frustrating mediums to argue against because of fanboys and inconsistencies. They use arguments like Kid Buu can only die by a spirit bomb and other nonsense.

Dragonball would be better, but they still have the moon busting attack. Still it's far more reasonable.

Android 18 broke Vegeta's arm who was far weaker than dead Goku. What lifting class does that make them? Just more ups and downs that they want to ignore.

[JACK-2]

They're argument now is Goku and Co can lift sextillion Billion tons. Because apparently since Frieza survived a planet explosion and Trunks sword sliced him up. Trunks sword slashes are above planetary and since Goku stopped them with one finger- You see where I'm going with this.

[The Big Daddy C-Master]

Dec 12, 2014 20:28:59 GMT -5 JACK-2 said:

They're argument now is Goku and Co can lift sextillion Billion tons. Because apparently since Frieza survived a planet explosion and Trunks sword sliced him up. Trunks sword slashes are above planetary and since Goku stopped them with one finger- You see where I'm going with this.

Lol they clearly don't understand that there are other types of durability out there. We also don't know exactly what Frieza survived in space when that happened, he's shown to be able to survive anywhere anyways.

[JACK-2]

The other thing is surviving off-panel isn't tanking. That's what makes it so dumb.

[The Big Daddy C-Master]

Dec 12, 2014 20:40:30 GMT -5 JACK-2 said:

The other thing is surviving off-panel isn't tanking. That's what makes it so dumb.

Well Frieza didn't *tank* anything, lol. He almost died.

[JACK-2]

They keep saying he had no Ki when he survived the blast and use an anime only scene where he's shown after the explosion.

[The Big Daddy C-Master]

Dec 12, 2014 21:06:36 GMT -5 JACK-2 said:

They keep saying he had no Ki when he survived the blast and use an anime only scene where he's shown after the explosion.

Anime is not canon. Vegeta was almost killed by a Krillin blast, does that mean's he's about Krillin level?

Just nonsense.

[JACK-2]

Oct 17, 2014 18:13:38 GMT -5 The Big Daddy C-Master said:

This is something that has been on my mind in a while. I've seen many vs debates with anime styled characters and it inevitably gets into scaling and whatnot. One thing that was on my mind was that the presentation of the powers in the series could have an affect on how we view them.

For instance people like to do Sensui vs DBZ debates. Sensui was strong and he had immense power going by his own universe but he didn't display it in nearly as destructive a manner as dbz characters do (aside from powering up at low power). They fought on Demon world which was much more durable than normal world. Is there any accurate way to really gauge him against a DBZ character who are more destructive overall? After all most shows don't have characters blowing up planets or anything close, it's usually listed or stated (they also don't have the convenient magic dragon that brings things back). Does that mean they really aren't that strong?

What are your thoughts?

I forgot to answer the question before we got side tracked into arguing DBZ lol. Sensui in the manga when he was fighting Yusuke had a great degree of environmental destruction. But, the demon world was more suitable to fight in because it was more durable and could take it. I find it funny that this is overlooked when S class demons can't even fight on earth because they're too strong. Even Gods in DBZ going all out can fight on earth in DBZ lol.

[The Big Daddy C-Master]

May 5, 2015 7:23:15 GMT -5 JACK-2 said:

Oct 17, 2014 18:13:38 GMT -5 The Big Daddy C-Master said:

This is something that has been on my mind in a while. I've seen many vs debates with anime styled characters and it inevitably gets into scaling and whatnot. One thing that was on my mind was that the presentation of the powers in the series could have an affect on how we view them.

For instance people like to do Sensui vs DBZ debates. Sensui was strong and he had immense power going by his own universe but he didn't display it in nearly as destructive a manner as dbz characters do (aside from powering up at low power). They fought on Demon world which was much more durable than normal world. Is there any accurate way to really gauge him against a DBZ character who are more destructive overall? After all most shows don't have characters blowing up planets or anything close, it's usually listed or stated (they also don't have the convenient magic dragon that brings things back). Does that mean they really aren't that strong?

What are your thoughts?

I forgot to answer the question before we got side tracked into arguing DBZ lol. Sensui in the manga when he was fighting Yusuke had a great degree of environmental destruction. But, the demon world was more suitable to fight in because it was more durable and could take it. I find it funny that this is overlooked when S class demons can't even fight on earth because they're too strong. Even Gods in DBZ going all out can fight on earth in DBZ lol.

People can't understand things like that because it doesn't have full blown in your face planet destruction. Many characters more powerful than DBZ don't blow up the Earth. DBZ has a custom tailored plot device to bring the Earth back anyways.

[JACK-2]

The most dangerous powers in fiction revolve around doing hax things like: Mind manipulation, time control, transmutation and so forth. But, then you have the dumb "DBZ characters can resist hax with power levels" ignoring that they rarely fight people with those abilities.

[The Big Daddy C-Master]

May 5, 2015 15:30:44 GMT -5 JACK-2 said:

The most dangerous powers in fiction revolve around doing hax things like: Mind manipulation, time control, transmutation and so forth. But, then you have the dumb "DBZ characters can resist hax with power levels" ignoring that they rarely fight people with those abilities.

It depends. Many top level characters tend to have everything but any power can be breaking if it's cranked up enough. That's why Flash is so dangerous. In most fights you'll do fine with very high stats ala Superman. If you get around the hax the hax is useless.

Superman can resist a lot of stuff but not everything.

[JACK-2]

Superman as a proven track record, though. People just assume Goku can resist X "Because he's Goku."

[The Big Daddy C-Master]

May 7, 2015 19:27:09 GMT -5 JACK-2 said:

Superman as a proven track record, though. People just assume Goku can resist X "Because he's Goku."

Well that also goes into how feats are done. It can be a pain arguing against Superman fanboys because someone can just take a feat out of his very long career to counter everything- which leads to skewing. I mean Superman has even resisted Kryptonite while fighting. If a person skews long enough they can make a character seem way out of their league. Feat wars can be really annoying and it makes arguing against fanboys a pain.

[JACK-2]

True, characters with long histories are very easy to skew. See Thor for example.

[The Big Daddy C-Master]

If you look at the good and ignore the bad you can make them Galactus level lol.