It appears some people do have brains

[The Big Daddy C-Master]

www.gamefaqs.com/boards/895976-street-fighter-v/70796618

This should be mandatory.

[JACK-2]

I especially love how certain elitist communities try so hard to make the entry level so hard for the sake of elitism.

[The Big Daddy C-Master]

Dec 20, 2014 6:49:09 GMT -5 JACK-2 said:

I especially love how certain elitist communities try so hard to make the entry level so hard for the sake of elitism.

Yep Jelfish just wanted to feel good about himself I guess. What's wrong with a well made tutorial? How is it hurting him? Better to have that than a bunch of dumbed down mechanics.

[JACK-2]

The FGC is notoriously retarded. So, glad I don't bother hanging around their anymore.

[The Big Daddy C-Master]

Dec 20, 2014 9:02:30 GMT -5 JACK-2 said:

The FGC is notoriously retarded. So, glad I don't bother hanging around their anymore.

I can see that from that Killer Instinct thread, now people are saying that the idea that games are cheaper on PC is a myth.

Bull.

[JACK-2]

That's like saying the idea of the sky being blue is a myth. Good God, these people.

[The Big Daddy C-Master]

Dec 20, 2014 9:51:52 GMT -5 JACK-2 said:

That's like saying the idea of the sky being blue is a myth. Good God, these people.

They're now saying that pirating makes the games cheaper? Wouldn't stolen goods mean the company has to drive up the price? Why pirate PC games when they're so cheap? Consoles and handhelds have their pirates too.

On top of that if everyone was pirating so much nobody would bother making games on PC.

[JACK-2]

I can't even begin to. . .Just, wow.

[The Big Daddy C-Master]

Dec 20, 2014 10:11:02 GMT -5 JACK-2 said:

I can't even begin to. . .Just, wow.

Modding is a form of pirating:

www.ultra-combo.com/forums/index.php?topic=299.msg94838#new

[JACK-2]

I knew console fanboys were retarded. But, this takes the cake.

[The Big Daddy C-Master]

Lol developers even have modding contests and reward people for winning. Modding makes games which are old and outdated playable again.

Now you know why I try to avoid forum "debates". Religion, politics, gaming, it's all the same crap.

[JACK-2]

Well, debates in general are problematic because people get like this. Like, I'm a Nintendo console fan. But, I accept that PC is a much cheaper platform despite liking Nintendo. I'm willing to compromise for the sake of fairness even if I don't agree. At least I try. But, that debate is ridiculous. People were literally making shit up in the defense of consoles. It's crazy.

[gurpwnder]

Jeez, this sort of shit could have saved me from my first year of SF4.

The entirety of my first year was just to be a punching bag for my friends.
Not exactly the smoothest of introductions to fighting games, eh?
Especially when you vow to main Dan exclusively.

For the first several months, I did nothing but jump HK to sweep, sweep and Lv 2 or 3 Focus crumples to sweep.
SF4 does a horrible job in teaching the players ANYTHING about the game.

Dan's Cl.HP is cancellable, but not his Cl.HK. That confused me. His Cl.HK is super cancellable, but not special cancellable. Dan's n.j.MK goes through juggled opponents, but n.j.MP hits juggled opponents. A lot of arbitrage that a beginner would have no idea about just all confused me.

How am I supposed to know that LP xx Hadoken works with Ryu, but LP xx LP XX Hadoken doesn't?
Oh man, I've already ranted about all this shit before, so I'll cut myself short here.

[The Big Daddy C-Master]

Dec 21, 2014 1:42:36 GMT -5 JACK-2 said:

Well, debates in general are problematic because people get like this. Like, I'm a Nintendo console fan. But, I accept that PC is a much cheaper platform despite liking Nintendo. I'm willing to compromise for the sake of fairness even if I don't agree. At least I try. But, that debate is ridiculous. People were literally making shit up in the defense of consoles. It's crazy.

It's just fanatics trying to sink with their ship instead of being logical. Being ignorant and stupid is bad enough, outright lying is worse. I suspect many were kids. I just like my PC because I get more for less and it's more efficient.

[The Big Daddy C-Master]

Dec 21, 2014 2:39:31 GMT -5 gurpwnder said:

Jeez, this sort of shit could have saved me from my first year of SF4.

The entirety of my first year was just to be a punching bag for my friends.
Not exactly the smoothest of introductions to fighting games, eh?
Especially when you vow to main Dan exclusively.

For the first several months, I did nothing but jump HK to sweep, sweep and Lv 2 or 3 Focus crumples to sweep.
SF4 does a horrible job in teaching the players ANYTHING about the game.

Dan's Cl.HP is cancellable, but not his Cl.HK. That confused me. His Cl.HK is super cancellable, but not special cancellable. Dan's n.j.MK goes through juggled opponents, but n.j.MP hits juggled opponents. A lot of arbitrage that a beginner would have no idea about just all confused me.

How am I supposed to know that LP xx Hadoken works with Ryu, but LP xx LP XX Hadoken doesn't?
Oh man, I've already ranted about all this shit before, so I'll cut myself short here.

Rant away. This is the kind of stuff that should be pointed out in the FGC. I mean would you rather have a good tutorial or have more dumbed down mechanics. Why wouldn't you just make a good tutorial mode? There's no reason not to.

[gurpwnder]

It makes me sick that people would be AGAINST a tutorial mode being added to a fighting game. What a bunch of elitist snobs.

SF4 seems to be a game that tried to pick up the casual market, but their decisions just leave me wondering "What were they thinking?"

It doesn't teach new players how to juggle or what juggles an airbourne jugged opponent, it expects players to know when to chain and when to link just by looking at a series of moves in Trial mode, it balances characters around 1 frame links (like E.Ryu, Ken's 1F far LP or Cl.MK ~ U2, Sakura's tatsu loop extensions, etc.), it doesn't give players an idea about frame data (if I went into training mode and just did Dan's Cl.HK, I would have no idea that it would open up combos to Cr.MP just by looking at the move hit Ryu. I'd need the internet for that).

For Pete's sake, it doesn't even tell a brand new player how to cancel into a special attack.

Instead, we get input shortcuts that can screw up with inputs and a grossly extended reversal window. Neither of these are beneficial to new players because neither of them will help them out in the long run. It's the equivalent of being the teacher of a failing kid at school. You could either help the kid out by continuing to practice with them and offering them extra advice, or you can just inflate their marks and get them off your back. Capcom chose the latter strategy.

An extended reversal window / input shortcuts won't build long term fundamentals that a new player needs. It gives them crutches to get a couple of wins, enjoy the thrill of the win and keep playing.

[The Big Daddy C-Master]

Dec 21, 2014 15:42:24 GMT -5 gurpwnder said:

It makes me sick that people would be AGAINST a tutorial mode being added to a fighting game. What a bunch of elitist snobs.

SF4 seems to be a game that tried to pick up the casual market, but their decisions just leave me wondering "What were they thinking?"

It doesn't teach new players how to juggle or what juggles an airbourne jugged opponent, it expects players to know when to chain and when to link just by looking at a series of moves in Trial mode, it balances characters around 1 frame links (like E.Ryu, Ken's 1F far LP or Cl.MK ~ U2, Sakura's tatsu loop extensions, etc.), it doesn't give players an idea about frame data (if I went into training mode and just did Dan's Cl.HK, I would have no idea that it would open up combos to Cr.MP just by looking at the move hit Ryu. I'd need the internet for that).

For Pete's sake, it doesn't even tell a brand new player how to cancel into a special attack.

Instead, we get input shortcuts that can screw up with inputs and a grossly extended reversal window. Neither of these are beneficial to new players because neither of them will help them out in the long run. It's the equivalent of being the teacher of a failing kid at school. You could either help the kid out by continuing to practice with them and offering them extra advice, or you can just inflate their marks and get them off your back. Capcom chose the latter strategy.

An extended reversal window / input shortcuts won't build long term fundamentals that a new player needs. It gives them crutches to get a couple of wins, enjoy the thrill of the win and keep playing.

Yea pseudo elitist. Those players don't even tend to be good, then they whine about the "easy mode mechanics". I think in his case he advocated them lol. You think tutorials are noobish and then you want silly comeback mechanics.

Yea those trials were bs. There wasn't even a demo, Street Fighter revolves around artificial difficulty with dumbed down mechanics. It makes the game feel very confusing. It's like what do they want to cater to? They want to make it user friendly but leave silly links in for the "hardcore" players so you can waste time in practice grinding for no reason as you'll always have a good chance of missing.

A good tutorial is very effective and will go a long way into making the community better. Which is what we need. Not fake elitists trying to pat themselves on the back.

[gurpwnder]

Something like Skullgirls' tutorial was fantastic. It not only taught you how to play the game, it taught you some strategies you could use, like tick throws, hitconfirms, applications of various moves, etc.

Stuff that would not only help a new player with the game, but actually help them build a foundation and properly learn how to play the game.

Major props to Mike Z.

[The Big Daddy C-Master]

Dec 21, 2014 17:02:44 GMT -5 gurpwnder said:

Something like Skullgirls' tutorial was fantastic. It not only taught you how to play the game, it taught you some strategies you could use, like tick throws, hitconfirms, applications of various moves, etc.

Stuff that would not only help a new player with the game, but actually help them build a foundation and properly learn how to play the game.

Major props to Mike Z.

The games that do the right thing but don't get any attention. Just things like SF4.

I like Virtua Fighter's tutorial. It even had frame advantage on it. Shame nobody plays it.

[gurpwnder]

Yeah. In this day and age, people are going to get the frame data and post them up onto the internet regardless. Might as well help the playerbase out and post frame data on character moves in the game itself like Virtua Fighter and Injustice.

SF4's Trial Mode was complete ass, but it at least is a foundation to something. I think they could expand on it by first separating the trials into sections. Stuff like 'Special moves', 'Links', 'Bread and butters', 'Links into bigger damage' 'Style'. Each one should have a brief blurb about the link or the combo. Stuff like a trial being Dan Cl.MP xx HK Dan kicks with a blurb that says "This combo can be used should you need a quick punish on the opponent." and something like "Cr.HP xx HP Koryuken" could say "The most damaging bread and butter punish that Dan has without using links."

A lot of the later trials in SSF4 were very impractical, but new players wouldn't know that because there's no distinction.

[The Big Daddy C-Master]

Dec 21, 2014 22:34:38 GMT -5 gurpwnder said:

Yeah. In this day and age, people are going to get the frame data and post them up onto the internet regardless. Might as well help the playerbase out and post frame data on character moves in the game itself like Virtua Fighter and Injustice.

SF4's Trial Mode was complete ass, but it at least is a foundation to something. I think they could expand on it by first separating the trials into sections. Stuff like 'Special moves', 'Links', 'Bread and butters', 'Links into bigger damage' 'Style'. Each one should have a brief blurb about the link or the combo. Stuff like a trial being Dan Cl.MP xx HK Dan kicks with a blurb that says "This combo can be used should you need a quick punish on the opponent." and something like "Cr.HP xx HP Koryuken" could say "The most damaging bread and butter punish that Dan has without using links."

A lot of the later trials in SSF4 were very impractical, but new players wouldn't know that because there's no distinction.

They need to expand on it a lot more. Kof had a trial mode but it was never meant to be practical. Trials are just challenges. SF4 really had no information whatsoever. Just dumbed down mechanics.

[gurpwnder]

Lose-lose.

[The Big Daddy C-Master]

Dec 22, 2014 23:53:45 GMT -5 gurpwnder said:

Lose-lose.

How would you implement a tutorial system?

[gurpwnder]

By imagining that the player is playing a fighting game for the first time.

Walk them through the game step by step. For example, you could first teach them about movement, then move onto defense, then move onto special moves, then move onto cancelling, etc.

Each step should come with some exercises. For example, the dummy could just walk up to you and hit HP a few times, and you need to block 5 in a row. Then the dummy could Cr.MK and you need to block low 5 times in a row. Then something like a Jump-in to Cr.MK blockstring 5 times in a row. Then Jump-in to overhead mixup and some other tricky exercises to make sure they get it.

With cancelling, you could first have them do any cancellable normal into a hadoken. Then have them cancel into a shoryuken. Then have them cancel into a sonic boom. Then have them cancel into a flash kick. Then cancel specials into supers, etc.

This stuff has all been done in Skullgirls. The tutorial really is something. It teaches you stuff like how to defend against tick throws and asks you to try your own too.

[The Big Daddy C-Master]

Yea, Dead or Alive had the same thing. They walk you through all of it and then have you try it out and you have to complete it 5-10 times to pass.