Meter Management in Fighting Games:

[The Big Daddy C-Master]

I was discussing a topic with doomfanatiq at another site, so we were carrying it on here.

I'll post it later when I'm on.

[The Big Daddy C-Master]

Ok, gonna clean this up and take out the junk:

my concept was that as above, not that fadc doesn't have better uses, it depends on situation... if you managed to land a cr mk >fb, go ahead and use fadc ! if you still cannot find a way past your opponents solid defense, then why not kara demon?

Because you have other options past their defense. You have to have solid fundamentals to land so many kara demons because you have to scare them into not doing anything. There is no way to put out a demon without either using a really telegraphed input (the classic way) or hiding it somehow which has other problems (you can be poked out of dash demon, kara demon, wakeup demon can be risky) so there's a huge cost attached to it. Why not use your other tools? Two overheads, hop kick to beat crouch tech, standing medium kick to be crouch tech, divekick, throw, and kara throw. Part of SF4 is that you *have* to frame trap to be good at this game because the defense is stupid strong. So if a person relies on Kara demon at a high cost whenever the opponent is guarding is not utilizing fundamentals properly. They should know how to frametrap first.

the super demon is invincible because of start up frame of 1, and invincibility frames of 1, have you never seen people landing super when opponent's jab's is clearly active ? you will never get stuffed within the first frame, and it is to be used up close, normal demon is not as much of a threat because it needs to be close range, but eryu kara demon is good because of the longer range.

Actually the flash is invincible, and no I haven't seen people eat up an active move, but I *have* seen it eat up the startup of a move (up close). The general knowledge in the past was that it didn't have it on the actual move, but it's been discovered that the startup flash of all supers have 1f of invincibility, regardless of the move. That's why Ryu's Shinkuu Hadoken would sometimes have him hit on startup, and sometimes it wouldn't but the move would come out. Never understood that weirdness until now though. Anyways you don't have to just kara demon, tick throw demon is another option. Kara demon increases the range, but it also increases the startup so you're more likely to be poked out.

's not easy to make her lose charge when she is seating on a life lead, especially with shotos... i already said it's my opinion that chunli/gen is better,

Yes charge characters are annoying on a life lead. Chun's super is defensive by nature. She's good at punishing approaches on meter. Ryu can punish far more things and can combo in far more ways and blow up fireballs, and it requires no charge and is + on block by a huge margin whereas Chun Li is open to a punish. I think Chun has one of the best supers in the game, but if you think hers is better than Evil Ryu's, I don't get why you don't think Ryu's is. They both limit options, but Ryu's also limits *movement*.

have you never seen ash doing a raw neomax after a short jump or running over?

Not too often because it's much better to confirm into combos vs just throwing out all of your meter on one attack. Which is my point.

and benimaru does need 1 hd meter to get it and it is only in the corner, unlike kara demon which can be used anywhere and especially more threatening after scoring a knockdown. the similar cost is the risk of it whiffing and costing eryu or benimaru the match...

Benimaru needs one STOCK for his ex grab which is invincible and 1f startup (bs move), and nothing if he does it off of meaty fireball, throw, knee, or jumps. You have to cancel it but you build meter the whole time and can confirm into it. You get meter like candy in Kof, so Beni can do infinites pretty much the whole match, especially if he's second or third. Evil Ryu does not just around able to do demons the whole match. Benimaru almost never gets his command grab punished. I'm sorry but that infinite is just retarded and very hard to deal with. Benimaru is just hard to punish period. His knee, his dp pushes him back, his projectile is hard to get around, his grab is fast. You can't just react and punish a command grab from beni like you can punish Evil Ryu's super since:

1. Supers freeze the screen which telegraphs is.
2. Evil Ryu's super keeps going if he misses.

That's a very big difference.

ultras is gotten by taking damage, kof13 gains alot of meters for taking damage in case you didn't know...

chars who does high damage without HD or meters is like eryu who does high damage without meters but that's not on topic

Ultras are not like HD, supers get meter by taking damage just like drive and stock does. They also cost meter to use hd and to use fadc from the same bar. You use up the meter you don't get supers/neomax.

Ultra has its own bar and requires no meter management and is nothing but a comeback mechanic you get every round. They make most supers obsolete as well since they do more damage and often have more invincibilty frames as well, and with red focus you can combo into it stupid easy.

They're not the same.

I was talking about characters who do high damage without HD, they still spend drive/stock, they just don't enter hd mode. It's just the same as Evil Ryu's damage conversion but it was just another example.

indeed i didn't know that kof have kara moves lol... but i am sure it's not as good as sf kara moves

Kof has much more leniency with kara cancelling. It's very easy to do and adds range to many moves, what's really good about it though is that you can use it to fake your opponent out during pressure and zoning. They play a much bigger part for every character unlike SF where only a few benefit from it like Ken and Vega.

pressuring in kof13 is much more easier it's harder to auto correct dp ... and opponents have safe jumps and other options which render wake up dp useful and a huge risks to take on wake up, which is why in kof you always see opponents trying to pressure even if the players have dp.

Pressuring in Kof is easier/better for a ton of reasons:

1. The damage reward is better.
2. There is more mobility and you have more frame advantage on block with your moves.
3. You can't crouch tech so low/throw mixups actually work.
4. You can run.
5. You can hop.
6. Grabs start up fast as well.
7. No invincible backdashes.
8. No focus absorb shenanigans.
9. No huge stages.
10. Overheads in this game lead to huge damage.
11. Kof XIII has insane corner carry.


Either way Dp is still extremely good, if it wasn't nobody would use it. Karate is top tier and one of the reason is his silly dp is fast and has huge reward. It's always better to have a dp than not to have one because it makes your opponent think twice when they pressure you on wakeup or not. It's a braindead way to get out of something, if you miss you get hit, but it's better than your opponent just not respecting you. Things like dp is what makes me want to play more 3d fighters. No braindead "get me out of this situation" moves.

Characters like Mai would love a dp. You should be punished for bad dp's, dp's could be punished in SF2, do you think they're bad in that game too?

i keep repeating the same stuffs over and over again... but fadc combos are not unblockable and it's much harder to open up opponents with cr mk than kara demon... you are hopeless because you just refuse to admit that opening up opponents is a much more valuable tool than you imagine.

No I'm arguing that there are much less expensive options to open them up and that you can manage your meter better and get more damage.

benimaru throw have no meters cost, but it costs meters to continue the combos and have you ever imagine if he miss the combos doing a air lighting fist later it whiff while opponents recover? it's doomsday ? it's much more riskier than you think landing the combos.

Benimaru builds meter AFTER he confirms into it and that's why it's an infinite. If he didn't build so much meter it wouldn't be. You'd only be punished if you did a dp or something and dropped during that part. Even with an easy lightning loop you can do 600+ damage off of a low cost from a 1f normal throw in the corner. It's too good reward for really no risk. Normal throws have no meter cost either. He's as bad as Chin is really.

i already said if super are only good for finishing a match, why would daigo keep using it? the fact that he landed enough of those demons already prove that it is perfectly viable and at times better than fadc combos.

Yes but Fadc is better 90% of the time. Why did Sako use it very infrequently? Because he trusted his fundamentals and got better damage, stun, and corner carry for his patience. Daigo was just having a bit of fun IMO. People will adapt. Do you recall people being hit by Gen's ex attack on purpose to avoid being hit by super-> ultra? That's because smaller damage was worth it. Better to be hit by a demon than multiple fadc combos and your opponent still builds meter and keeps his tools. If he uses super he gives up many of his options which is why I don't mind predominant reliance on it.

Simple.

[doomfanatiq]

Because you have other options past their defense. You have to have solid fundamentals to land so many kara demons because you have to scare them into not doing anything. There is no way to put out a demon without either using a really telegraphed input (the classic way) or hiding it somehow which has other problems (you can be poked out of dash demon, kara demon, wakeup demon can be risky) so there's a huge cost attached to it. Why not use your other tools? Two overheads, hop kick to beat crouch tech, standing medium kick to be crouch tech, divekick, throw, and kara throw. Part of SF4 is that you *have* to frame trap to be good at this game because the defense is stupid strong. So if a person relies on Kara demon at a high cost whenever the opponent is guarding is not utilizing fundamentals properly. They should know how to frametrap first.


i agree with your concept that the stronger the fundamentals, the higher the success rate of landing raw kara demon during footsies because opponents have a higher fear factor.  fundamentals, focus attacks, jump in, hop kicks, divekick, st mk, overheads are ways to open up opponents. think of it this way, before gaining 4 meters, fundamentals is the BEST way to open up opponents. but the situation changes when eryu have 4 meters, kara demon is very flexible when u analysed how daigo used it, over 50% of the kara demon he performs is after he managed to open up opponents with jump ins, or focus attacks, or opponents making mistakes and scoring a knockdown, which he attempt kara demon after instead of going back to the traditional way of fishing for cr mk fadc combos using fundamentals. 

so my point is this, during footsies kara demons should not be the main source of damage, but after scoring a knockdown, it can be a main source of damage instead of going back to fundamentals.

Actually the flash is invincible, and no I haven't seen people eat up an active move, but I *have* seen it eat up the startup of a move (up close). The general knowledge in the past was that it didn't have it on the actual move, but it's been discovered that the startup flash of all supers have 1f of invincibility, regardless of the move. That's why Ryu's Shinkuu Hadoken would sometimes have him hit on startup, and sometimes it wouldn't but the move would come out. Never understood that weirdness until now though. Anyways you don't have to just kara demon, tick throw demon is another option. Kara demon increases the range, but it also increases the startup so you're more likely to be poked out.



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i have personally seen it beating crouch tech LK when using kara demon on opponent's wake up. that was when i realised super demon have invincibility frames. but just 1 frame only so that if eryu players used it at the wrong distance, they would be getting poke out of it which makes sense why you saw pokes stuffing kara demon instead. throw have 2 frames start up as below link, so kara throw is actually longer, this essentially means opponents have longer time to decide teching it. and the reward is not as good anymore with dwu for after throws setups.

wiki.shoryuken.com/Super_Street_Fighter_IV/Universal_Abilities/Throws

Yes charge characters are annoying on a life lead. Chun's super is defensive by nature. She's good at punishing approaches on meter. Ryu can punish far more things and can combo in far more ways and blow up fireballs, and it requires no charge and is + on block by a huge margin whereas Chun Li is open to a punish. I think Chun has one of the best supers in the game, but if you think hers is better than Evil Ryu's, I don't get why you don't think Ryu's is. They both limit options, but Ryu's also limits *movement*.



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i understand your view that ryu's super is better based on 4 points.
1) because ryu can punish far more things requiring no charge.
2) additional combos
3) because ryu can use in more ways to blow up fireballs.
4) + frames on block

Mine however was because
1) chunli super is faster, and the travel range is instant. (example eryu cr mk is -3 can be punished by chunli super, but ryu 3 frame super cannot punish it because there is actually additional frames for ryu super to travel across the screen)
2) combos wise, chunli can use it too for additional damage and it is more damaging than ryu's super ending in combos.
3) chunli can hit confirm it from St MP whiff punish, no need for cancel while seating on charge, while ryu have a much harder time to hit confirm from cr mk because you have to cancel.
4) goes through fireballs too, but more importantly, punishes fireballs on BLOCK.

above points are why i think chunli super is the best, because of the practical uses, as for eryu is because.

1) damage, both eryu and chunli have higher raw damage than ryu's, (if you think eryu super is a waste of meters for 370, ryu's raw is only 300 lol, sometimes i don't even use it as anti fireball because i would get damaged 70 and only landing 300, and ryu really have no other reliable ways of getting damage with cr mk > fb been a untrue block string)
2) eryu's stronger pressure techs leads to more efficient utilisation of his super + kara = increased probability of landing super
3) unblockable, valuable way of opening up opponents.
4) only fireballs chars actually felt threatened by ryu's super. this is strictly my personal opinion, but have you experienced the pressure of chunli's super, the inability to even poke her ? and by eryu, the inability to properly read whether he would kara demon or cr mk when getting in or waking up? this is by my personal experience because i used a bunch of chars and the only time i fear getting hit by ryu's super is when i do a fireball. 

Not too often because it's much better to confirm into cjust throwing out all of your meter on one attack. Which is my point.

ombos vs 

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for kof13, yes and no answer on which is better, no because kof13 have short empty jumps to fake your opponents into blocking on wake up, yes because kof13 is a jumpy game so the risks are much higher, but if he actually tried to jump on wake up seeing ash jump in, ash players pressing something on their short jumps= doomsday. basically the nature of the game is too different and really hard for me to debate if raw unblockable neomax is better than HD combos most of the time.

for sf, you can almost be certain the opponents are going to do something on wake up, either by crouch tech, BD, DP, higher level plays = delay crouch tech or 4 buttons focus bd tech. so daigo was committing to a read that kara demon would most certainly hit because of the nature of the game. i think we call that an educated guess.

Benimaru needs one STOCK for his ex grab which is invincible and 1f startup (bs move), and nothing if he does it off of meaty fireball, throw, knee, or jumps. You have to cancel it but you build meter the whole time and can confirm into it. You get meter like candy in Kof, so Beni can do infinites pretty much the whole match, especially if he's second or third. Evil Ryu does not just around able to do demons the whole match. Benimaru almost never gets his command grab punished. I'm sorry but that infinite is just retarded and very hard to deal with. Benimaru is just hard to punish period. His knee, his dp pushes him back, his projectile is hard to get around, his grab is fast. You can't just react and punish a command grab from beni like you can punish Evil Ryu's super since:



1. Supers freeze the screen which telegraphs is.

2. Evil Ryu's super keeps going if he misses.



That's a very big difference.



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i agree it's a BS move but that's the nature of the game, everybody have BS lol. and throws are much harder to land in kof13 because of 2 points that can be reacted to unlike kara demon.
1) you have to be REALLY CLOSE to your opponents unlike sf have ridiculous throw range.
2) you have to take HUGE risks, by either running over and risk getting poked into HD combos, or jumping over (smaller risk except vs karate who can dp into huge damage), and commit to a read to throw/cmd grab ex, which is doomsday if it whiff.

the point is, you can react to benimaru player running or jumping over by jumping or poking in kof13, but it's impossible to see a canceling of hop kick into super and react with pokes. the best bet is to whiff pokes like xiaohai did hoping that daigo is indeed attempting kara demon to interrupt before the kara cancel. if you watched the video, you should know what daigo did, he whiff punishes xiaohai with sweep first before landing kara demon on his wake up. 

Ultras are not like HD, supers get meter by taking damage just like drive and stock does. They also cost meter to use hd and to use fadc from the same bar. You use up the meter you don't get supers/neomax.



Ultra has its own bar and requires no meter management and is nothing but a comeback mechanic you get every round. They make most supers obsolete as well since they do more damage and often have more invincibilty frames as well, and with red focus you can combo into it stupid easy.



They're not the same.



I was talking about characters who do high damage without HD, they still spend drive/stock, they just don't enter hd mode. It's just the same as Evil Ryu's damage conversion but it was just another example.





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agreed on the differences, but this is not on topic i think so i won't comment further lol

Kof has much more leniency with kara cancelling. It's very easy to do and adds range to many moves, what's really good about it though is that you can use it to fake your opponent out during pressure and zoning. They play a much bigger part for every character unlike SF where only a few benefit from it like Ken and Vega.



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cool, i'm a old school kof player but seriously i never heard of kara until sf lol, guess i'm out of touch maybe haha

Pressuring in Kof is easier/better for a ton of reasons:



1. The damage reward is better.

2. There is more mobility and you have more frame advantage on block with your moves.

3. You can't crouch tech so low/throw mixups actually work.

4. You can run.

5. You can hop.

6. Grabs start up fast as well.

7. No invincible backdashes.

8. No focus absorb shenanigans.

9. No huge stages.

10. Overheads in this game lead to huge damage.

11. Kof XIII has insane corner carry.





Either way Dp is still extremely good, if it wasn't nobody would use it. Karate is top tier and one of the reason is his silly dp is fast and has huge reward. It's always better to have a dp than not to have one because it makes your opponent think twice when they pressure you on wakeup or not. It's a braindead way to get out of something, if you miss you get hit, but it's better than your opponent just not respecting you. Things like dp is what makes me want to play more 3d fighters. No braindead "get me out of this situation" moves.



Characters like Mai would love a dp. You should be punished for bad dp's, dp's could be punished in SF2, do you think they're bad in that game too?



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Great analysis. nothing further on topic that i would add, the reason why i still prefered kof over sf is because offense is rewarded much more than sf. not that i don't appreciate footsies, but i enjoy kof more. 

if anything i should add that dp in sf works very differently, unlike in kof everybody have the same universal escape options and offense options. sf only rose, chunli have godlike bd, while only dp chars have 2 meters get out of jail. so even though i agree with the general games that dp should be punished, but because chars like ryu, ken, sagat simply do not possess the options to escape under pressure, so the -5 dp fadc was too harsh especially on my main sagat who have low mobility.... rant over lol...

No I'm arguing that there are much less expensive options to open them up and that you can manage your meter better and get more damage.



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agreed that fadc combos are less expensive options to open up opponents, you value inexpensive as been more important, while i consider the tool to open up opponents equally important if not better in some situations like scoring a knockdown.

Benimaru builds meter AFTER he confirms into it and that's why it's an infinite. If he didn't build so much meter it wouldn't be. You'd only be punished if you did a dp or something and dropped during that part. Even with an easy lightning loop you can do 600+ damage off of a low cost from a 1f normal throw in the corner. It's too good reward for really no risk. Normal throws have no meter cost either. He's as bad as Chin is really.



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the most common punish comes from not doing a air fireball loop fast enough, resulting in it whiffing and opponents recovering with roll and punishing benimaru on the way down. there's a reason why we don't get to see this combo at all in high level, too risky even for the veterans and they would rather used meters for a safer touch of death combos which is why if they drop the alternative combos that requires alot of meters, it is costly since they have none left.

Yes but Fadc is better 90% of the time. Why did Sako use it very infrequently? Because he trusted his fundamentals and got better damage, stun, and corner carry for his patience. Daigo was just having a bit of fun IMO. People will adapt. Do you recall people being hit by Gen's ex attack on purpose to avoid being hit by super-> ultra? That's because smaller damage was worth it. Better to be hit by a demon than multiple fadc combos and your opponent still builds meter and keeps his tools. If he uses super he gives up many of his options which is why I don't mind predominant reliance on it.



Simple.



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bear in mind bro that fadc is better 90% of the time because eryu players doesn't have 4 meters all the time. so the more fairer comparison is when there are 4 meters, should we still use fadc combos 90% of the time ?

[doomfanatiq]

on a side note, i absolutely love this site, the functions quotes and everything is so much clearer, can you suggest to EH to include such functions so that debates over there are not so messy ? haha thanks for the invite again =)

[The Big Daddy C-Master]

Jan 30, 2015 0:06:09 GMT -5 doomfanatiq said:

i agree with your concept that the stronger the fundamentals, the higher the success rate of landing raw kara demon during footsies because opponents have a higher fear factor.  fundamentals, focus attacks, jump in, hop kicks, divekick, st mk, overheads are ways to open up opponents. think of it this way, before gaining 4 meters, fundamentals is the BEST way to open up opponents. but the situation changes when eryu have 4 meters, kara demon is very flexible when u analysed how daigo used it, over 50% of the kara demon he performs is after he managed to open up opponents with jump ins, or focus attacks, or opponents making mistakes and scoring a knockdown, which he attempt kara demon after instead of going back to the traditional way of fishing for cr mk fadc combos using fundamentals. 

so my point is this, during footsies kara demons should not be the main source of damage, but after scoring a knockdown, it can be a main source of damage instead of going back to fundamentals.

Here's my problem with that assessment though; why would you ever abandon your fundamentals?  Imo you should always have them intact, that's the reason I call it a gimmick is because you're abandoning fundamentals.  I don't think this is ever a good idea.

Jan 30, 2015 0:06:09 GMT -5 doomfanatiq said:

i have personally seen it beating crouch tech LK when using kara demon on opponent's wake up. that was when i realised super demon have invincibility frames. but just 1 frame only so that if eryu players used it at the wrong distance, they would be getting poke out of it which makes sense why you saw pokes stuffing kara demon instead. throw have 2 frames start up as below link, so kara throw is actually longer, this essentially means opponents have longer time to decide teching it. and the reward is not as good anymore with dwu for after throws setups.

wiki.shoryuken.com/Super_Street_Fighter_IV/Universal_Abilities/Throws

The only time I've seen it override things is when you're breathing on them, but I assume whatever it's beating has very low active frames or you're right in their face (0 frame grab).

Kara anything always adds up startup time since you cancel in another move. This isn't bad for something like a normal throw because it can throw off their teching time, I'm not sure they'd decide to tech in that short of a span.  In a demon however when you kara cancel it you give up part of the advantage.  That's one of the weird things about that demon, or most raging demons.  You always have to hide the move because the input is so telegraphed, if it were a different motion you wouldn't have to go through this (unless it was that 720 motion).

All hard knockdowns have been weakened now, off of demon and throws.

Jan 30, 2015 0:06:09 GMT -5 doomfanatiq said:

i understand your view that ryu's super is better based on 4 points.
1) because ryu can punish far more things requiring no charge.
2) additional combos
3) because ryu can use in more ways to blow up fireballs.
4) + frames on block

Mine however was because
1) chunli super is faster, and the travel range is instant. (example eryu cr mk is -3 can be punished by chunli super, but ryu 3 frame super cannot punish it because there is actually additional frames for ryu super to travel across the screen)
2) combos wise, chunli can use it too for additional damage and it is more damaging than ryu's super ending in combos.
3) chunli can hit confirm it from St MP whiff punish, no need for cancel while seating on charge, while ryu have a much harder time to hit confirm from cr mk because you have to cancel.
4) goes through fireballs too, but more importantly, punishes fireballs on BLOCK.

above points are why i think chunli super is the best, because of the practical uses.

Well they both travel and Ryu's is quite fast, but Chun Li's has 1 frame startup time.  So Chun Li's is better for punishing stuff while waiting on defense.  It's not as strong when you need to be mobile though.

Ryu can combo his in more situations (while walking forward) and he can restrict not only moves, but actual movement i.e if an opponent tries to jump he can do a full punish where they'll bounce off of Chun.

Well only up  close will Chun punish a fireball on block, not from across the screen like Ryu can.  She  has a bit of invincibility, but I like her ultra for fireball punishes.

I think they're roughly the same, but Ryu's is just so darn easy and versatile compared to the demon and Chun's IMO.

Jan 30, 2015 0:06:09 GMT -5 doomfanatiq said:

for kof13, yes and no answer on which is better, no because kof13 have short empty jumps to fake your opponents into blocking on wake up, yes because kof13 is a jumpy game so the risks are much higher, but if he actually tried to jump on wake up seeing ash jump in, ash players pressing something on their short jumps= doomsday. basically the nature of the game is too different and really hard for me to debate if raw unblockable neomax is better than HD combos most of the time.

for sf, you can almost be certain the opponents are going to do something on wake up, either by crouch tech, BD, DP, higher level plays = delay crouch tech or 4 buttons focus bd tech. so daigo was committing to a read that kara demon would most certainly hit because of the nature of the game. i think we call that an educated guess.

Part of the fundamentals of Kof is to keep your opponent from jumping so you can land things on them.  Throws in SF are risky because of silly things like crouch teching and how much risk you take in opening up your opponent; it's easier in Kof.  That's why Clark lands several throws in a match while Zangief will get lucky if he lands two.  

My point wasn't even about the unblockable part, it's about the risk/reward of confirming vs raw neomax.  Kof XIII is so jumpy because ground normals are a lot weaker and the fishing game is so strong because of HD.  Which is why it is so good (and a bit silly).  It's not hard to land command grabs.  Look at Daimon and Clark.  You can run and grab, do tick grab setups, roll grab setups, etc.  Much more options and things to look out for when you're defending whereas in SF4 you have very limited options and you're much more predictable.

Jan 30, 2015 0:06:09 GMT -5 doomfanatiq said:

i agree it's a BS move but that's the nature of the game, everybody have BS lol. and throws are much harder to land in kof13 because of 2 points that can be reacted to unlike kara demon.
1) you have to be REALLY CLOSE to your opponents unlike sf have ridiculous throw range.
2) you have to take HUGE risks, by either running over and risk getting poked into HD combos, or jumping over (smaller risk except vs karate who can dp into huge damage), and commit to a read to throw/cmd grab ex, which is doomsday if it whiff.

the point is, you can react to benimaru player running or jumping over by jumping or poking in kof13, but it's impossible to see a canceling of hop kick into super and react with pokes. the best bet is to whiff pokes like xiaohai did hoping that daigo is indeed attempting kara demon to interrupt before the kara cancel. if you watched the video, you should know what daigo did, he whiff punishes xiaohai with sweep first before landing kara demon on his wake up. 

I think some characters have bs (Karate, Chin, Beni, Yuri, Kim, etc.) but I think the game is better balanced in SF4 where many characters are legitimately bad and you lose on character select more.

I don't think you're taking huge risks in implementing throws like you say man.  Beni's game is very safe and annoying.  He's a low risk character overall.  I mean look at Clark, Vice, and Daimon.  They have far more tools and options to implement their grab game, they have more mobility, and can scare you easier.  Zangief has far less options and can't make you fear his grab game the way they can.

Armor grabs, instant grabs, overheads, great normals, far ranged attacks.... these are things that Zangief doesn't have outside of the instant grabs.  His game is more limited and he's more crippled against many characters.

Benimaru has so many options he scares you into respecting his other options and *then* he can grab you.  His normal throw has no whiff animation and starts up in 1 frame and can be frame trapped.  Command grabs can't be teched and his ex grab is invincible.  What huge risks are there?  He even has a move that goes over lows that he can combo off of and a stupid crossup D.  Benimaru is FAR harder to deal with than Zangief *and* he gets more reward off of his throws.

Beni doesn't even have to run.  He can zone you, poke you out, walk at you, and use his stupid high priority kick to get in.  These all have low costs.

On the other hand his Neomax is amazing.  Fast, punishes everything across the screen, and he can even aim it.  It would be kind of similar to the demon (not blockable, but whatever it's still good like Chun Li's).  In this case I wouldn't use Beni's neomax very often even if it is amazing, because the damage is so low compared to his other options with meter.  

90% of the time he is better off doing other things.

Jan 30, 2015 0:06:09 GMT -5 doomfanatiq said:

Great analysis. nothing further on topic that i would add, the reason why i still prefered kof over sf is because offense is rewarded much more than sf. not that i don't appreciate footsies, but i enjoy kof more. 

Kof has a different approach to footsies.  I find Kof XIII more dynamic overall even if I think the reward for landing random pokes is way too high (lol I hit you now eat 90%).

Jan 30, 2015 0:06:09 GMT -5 doomfanatiq said:

if anything i should add that dp in sf works very differently, unlike in kof everybody have the same universal escape options and offense options. sf only rose, chunli have godlike bd, while only dp chars have 2 meters get out of jail. so even though i agree with the general games that dp should be punished, but because chars like ryu, ken, sagat simply do not possess the options to escape under pressure, so the -5 dp fadc was too harsh especially on my main sagat who have low mobility.... rant over lol...
agreed that fadc combos are less expensive options to open up opponents, you value inexpensive as been more important, while i consider the tool to open up opponents equally important if not better in some situations like scoring a knockdown.

Well dp's in SF tend to be stronger (at least amongst shotos who can't be safe jumped and are full invincible period) kof has more limitations with no escapes, but you also have more tools to deal with.

Dp's force your opponent to *guess* when he's pressuring you on your mistake (either you let him in or you got knocked down) I'm not too fond of it although I know it's "classic" and won't leave, but I especially don't like when you can bail out of it and confirm it.

That said with SF4's design I think it was a bit silly to take it away within the context of that game, it's also the reason I feel Evil Ryu got weaker in some areas compared to his unblockable j.hk, -3 on block dp fadc version.

I value the lower cost because I have more opportunities to use it.  I also build meter during the combo and I keep my options.  I can also confirm into it without having to blow meter on a bad guess.  You also get more damage, stun, and I can rest.  There's a multitude of reasons I prefer it and that it should be used most of the time.

Not that a demon doesn't have its uses, just that it should be more limited.

Jan 30, 2015 0:06:09 GMT -5 doomfanatiq said:

the most common punish comes from not doing a air fireball loop fast enough, resulting in it whiffing and opponents recovering with roll and punishing benimaru on the way down. there's a reason why we don't get to see this combo at all in high level, too risky even for the veterans and they would rather used meters for a safer touch of death combos which is why if they drop the alternative combos that requires alot of meters, it is costly since they have none left.

Many times he lands fast enough and nothing happens though, every once in a while he gets punished, but with the damage he got off of a low risk move it usually doesn't matter.  He lands as they get up to roll behind him where he still has a lot of options.  Infinites are just cheaper touch of death combos that are somewhat harder to do.  If you drop hd combos you can still be punished regardless.  I see people use Benimaru lightning loops quite often (if they know how to do it ), it's too good not too, even if he doesn't need to do it to be a good character.


Go to 01:39 in that video.

He does like 70% damage, drops it into a ground Raijenken (which is even slower recovery) and he's still safe!  So strong lol.  Way better than demon by far.  He only had one stock and one drive when he did it  no need to cancel again either.

You think the demon is that good?  Off of a normal throw?  C'mon man.

Jan 30, 2015 0:06:09 GMT -5 doomfanatiq said:

bear in mind bro that fadc is better 90% of the time because eryu players doesn't have 4 meters all the time. so the more fairer comparison is when there are 4 meters, should we still use fadc combos 90% of the time ?

Well the fact that I can do it more often is a reason, but even at 100% meter I can fadc and build 1 bar back, I'm always building meter and keeping options open.  Demon requires me to give up my options.  Let's say I hit you with a demon for 370, now what?  I have to play you the rest of the round or the next round without my options and primary threat.  If I fadc, I could build  a meter back and do more damage while having 3 bars.  I finish the round and I'll have one more bar for a super (if I want to) next round or two fadc combos.


I'd say 90% if not more.  What percentage do you think personally?

[The Big Daddy C-Master]

Jan 30, 2015 0:47:29 GMT -5 doomfanatiq said:

on a side note, i absolutely love this site, the functions quotes and everything is so much clearer, can you suggest to EH to include such functions so that debates over there are not so messy ? haha thanks for the invite again =)

I had my quote done earlier but the net was being weird and started to freeze me up so I had it sitting. No problem.

If you have anybody else cool you know, feel free to invite them (no trolls, spammers, or morons, lol). I don't need a massive site but having more people with cool opinions is great.

I guess I could, though I'm not sure news sites and things like eventhubs/youtube care. They cater to a different audience lol. For some reason my net isn't letting me post on my browser and I have to switch out. Even more of a reason for me to avoid that place lol.

[doomfanatiq]

Here's my problem with that assessment though; why would you ever abandon your fundamentals? Imo you should always have them intact, that's the reason I call it a gimmick is because you're abandoning fundamentals. I don't think this is ever a good idea.

Honestly, there's 3 possibilities into why daigo does it over the series.
1) daigo just want a faster way of confirming damage after taking into account the nature of the game, forgoing the opportunity cost of fishing for bigger damage through fadc combos.
2) daigo thrives on mind games for example umeshoryu on gamberbee and woolie, so he is trying to introduce new ways to mind play his opponents. go watch daigo vs woolie if you haven't it's hilarious lol...
3) daigo is just showing off as you mentioned. 

The only time I've seen it override things is when you're breathing on them, but I assume whatever it's beating has very low active frames or you're right in their face (0 frame grab).



Kara anything always adds up startup time since you cancel in another move. This isn't bad for something like a normal throw because it can throw off their teching time, I'm not sure they'd decide to tech in that short of a span. In a demon however when you kara cancel it you give up part of the advantage. That's one of the weird things about that demon, or most raging demons. You always have to hide the move because the input is so telegraphed, if it were a different motion you wouldn't have to go through this (unless it was that 720 motion).



All hard knockdowns have been weakened now, off of demon and throws.

watch 0:18 of the video


you can see clearly that xiaohai's jab is active but failed because of the invincibility frame i guess.

and if you analyse the video enough, you realised that daigo had a perfect timing and distance such that when opponents are just waking up he would kara cancel the demon, making it such that opponent's are unable to tech due to 2 reasons, because it's too near, and because crouch tech need 3-5 frames start up before active.

and because of the delayed kara, reversal dp should hit him before he kara cancel the hop kick which meant no wastage of meters. it's a new way of strategy to land damage due to how efficient he timed it.

Well they both travel and Ryu's is quite fast, but Chun Li's has 1 frame startup time. So Chun Li's is better for punishing stuff while waiting on defense. It's not as strong when you need to be mobile though.



Ryu can combo his in more situations (while walking forward) and he can restrict not only moves, but actual movement i.e if an opponent tries to jump he can do a full punish where they'll bounce off of Chun.



Well only up close will Chun punish a fireball on block, not from across the screen like Ryu can. She has a bit of invincibility, but I like her ultra for fireball punishes.



I think they're roughly the same, but Ryu's is just so darn easy and versatile compared to the demon and Chun's IMO.



Read more: thacmaster.proboards.com/thread/2149/meter-management-fighting-games#ixzz3QIjXi8bW

agreed on your analysis, chunli super is great on defense, while ryu is more mobile.

now let's think about it's application, alot of chars rely on footsies except divekicks or vortex chars, while ryu is more mobile, his is more limited to punishing fireballs chars and nothing on poking chars during footsies. which basically meant chunli have more uses because sf have at least 20 above chars who rely on footsies and most pokes are negative frames on block to prevent spamming which is a clever design by capcom. so the only advantage ryu have left over chunli is anti air and additional damage through combos, additional damage through combos as i mentioned, chunli is better since does more damage due to the raw damage of 340 over ryu 300.

ryu super is better anti air than chunli, but thanks to the ability to combo dp fadc> ultra, ryu is much better off doing dp fadc>ultra, or lp dp> ultra. which essentially limit the uses of ryu's super because he have alternative better anti air.

As a whiff punish, ryu's super advantage is only mobility, while chunli have 2 things better in terms of application.
1) damage
2) longer poke than ryu cr mk, and easier hit confirm than ryu's buffer because ryu have to cancel, while chunli can visually hit confirm it after seeing that st mp/st hp hits opponents.

it's easy to be mislead into thinking ryu super is better because of it's flexibility, however when you carefully list out the applications of each super, you should realise quickly how good chunli's super is. which explains the constant fear of getting hit by chunli when she have super.

Part of the fundamentals of Kof is to keep your opponent from jumping so you can land things on them. Throws in SF are risky because of silly things like crouch teching and how much risk you take in opening up your opponent; it's easier in Kof. That's why Clark lands several throws in a match while Zangief will get lucky if he lands two.



My point wasn't even about the unblockable part, it's about the risk/reward of confirming vs raw neomax. Kof XIII is so jumpy because ground normals are a lot weaker and the fishing game is so strong because of HD. Which is why it is so good (and a bit silly). It's not hard to land command grabs. Look at Daimon and Clark. You can run and grab, do tick grab setups, roll grab setups, etc. Much more options and things to look out for when you're defending whereas in SF4 you have very limited options and you're much more predictable.

ya it's important to limit your oppnent's jumps in kof to be able to pressure them more efficiently.

my opinions about throws is quite different from you though, throws in sf is less risky because of below.
1) max damage from a whiff throw is only 300-500 considering reversal ultra, unlike kof13 where whiffing throws = whiffing st hp = dead if opponent anticipate throws by neutral jumps. 
2) tech by opponents = resets situations. not much risks there.
3) delayed throws beat crouch tech before it's active frames, also beat reversal dp.

as for the risk rewards of HD combos confirming vs raw neomax. raw neomax is too rare because blockable neomax is useless except to punish some slow recovery special moves, and unblockable raw neomax are only used in desperation due to the low success rate because there are too many escape options. although it is not that hard to land cmd grab in kof13, but bear in mind the success rate is still much lower than compared to sf kara demon. i would say it is more comparable to sf throws because of crouch tech been a strong escape option though.

the predictability of sf on wake up is the best reason for why daigo attempted so many demons on opponent's wake up in my opinion, he knew the only escape option is to commit to jumping, but in high level play nobody would risk jumping on wake up.

I think some characters have bs (Karate, Chin, Beni, Yuri, Kim, etc.) but I think the game is better balanced in SF4 where many characters are legitimately bad and you lose on character select more.



I don't think you're taking huge risks in implementing throws like you say man. Beni's game is very safe and annoying. He's a low risk character overall. I mean look at Clark, Vice, and Daimon. They have far more tools and options to implement their grab game, they have more mobility, and can scare you easier. Zangief has far less options and can't make you fear his grab game the way they can.



Armor grabs, instant grabs, overheads, great normals, far ranged attacks.... these are things that Zangief doesn't have outside of the instant grabs. His game is more limited and he's more crippled against many characters.



Benimaru has so many options he scares you into respecting his other options and *then* he can grab you. His normal throw has no whiff animation and starts up in 1 frame and can be frame trapped. Command grabs can't be teched and his ex grab is invincible. What huge risks are there? He even has a move that goes over lows that he can combo off of and a stupid crossup D. Benimaru is FAR harder to deal with than Zangief *and* he gets more reward off of his throws.



Beni doesn't even have to run. He can zone you, poke you out, walk at you, and use his stupid high priority kick to get in. These all have low costs.



On the other hand his Neomax is amazing. Fast, punishes everything across the screen, and he can even aim it. It would be kind of similar to the demon (not blockable, but whatever it's still good like Chun Li's). In this case I wouldn't use Beni's neomax very often even if it is amazing, because the damage is so low compared to his other options with meter.



90% of the time he is better off doing other things.



Read more: thacmaster.proboards.com/thread/2149/meter-management-fighting-games#ixzz3QJ2DE4As

i'm not sure why u never seen it, but personally i have seen benimaru players dying due to whiffing throws/cmd grab when attempting after a jump or running over. 
1) when you run over, you expose yourself to pokes potentially leading to HD combos depending on chars. you cannot block when running over.
2) when you run over to whiff throw, whiff normals come out instead, and benimaru cl hp do not hit high targets, which meant that opponents most likely did a defensive high jump to whiff it, leading into huge dmg.
3) when you jump over, it's much safer, but benimaru have a more 'floaty' jumps than other chars like lori, which meant that it is easier to anti air. but the same risks apply if you attempt empty jump over throws/cmd grab.

honestly in kof13, you doesn't have to run if you are not attempting cmd grab/throw, the normal walkspeed is fast enough for normal zone/pokes. running is a playstyle catered for offensive minded people like myself to pressure opponents. 

benimaru neomax is amazing, can be used as anti air also LOL. but still 90% of the time you are right he should be doing other things because it's not unblockable and anti air is not as reliable because short jumps are insanely fast lol.

Kof has a different approach to footsies. I find Kof XIII more dynamic overall even if I think the reward for landing random pokes is way too high (lol I hit you now eat 90%).

LOL, that's a funny way of putting it 

Well dp's in SF tend to be stronger (at least amongst shotos who can't be safe jumped and are full invincible period) kof has more limitations with no escapes, but you also have more tools to deal with.



Dp's force your opponent to *guess* when he's pressuring you on your mistake (either you let him in or you got knocked down) I'm not too fond of it although I know it's "classic" and won't leave, but I especially don't like when you can bail out of it and confirm it.



That said with SF4's design I think it was a bit silly to take it away within the context of that game, it's also the reason I feel Evil Ryu got weaker in some areas compared to his unblockable j.hk, -3 on block dp fadc version.



I value the lower cost because I have more opportunities to use it. I also build meter during the combo and I keep my options. I can also confirm into it without having to blow meter on a bad guess. You also get more damage, stun, and I can rest. There's a multitude of reasons I prefer it and that it should be used most of the time.



Not that a demon doesn't have its uses, just that it should be more limited.

true dp that cannot be safe jump is strong, but the get out of jail card requires 2 meters, which i think is fair enough considering that's like the only reliable way to escape for ryu/ken/sagat/oni, chars with bad bd and there's no other escape options unlike kof rolls/counter. there's nothing op about it in my opinion because of the costs of 2 meters, other chars have bd costing 0, bison ex dr, ex pc, teleport costing 0-1 meters, of course it should be 2 meters> 1 meters> 0 meters. spending 2 meters to get punished on -5 is quite dumb in my opinion. 

ya eryu got weaker because of dp -5, but eryu have a viable bd, while others got hit harder because of the lack of alternatives.

i cannot argue with that because it's strictly your opinion of valuing lower costs over unblockable. i respect it honestly, but i think it's also hard to deny the fact that's it's abit more 'risky' to continue the game with landing fundamentals after scoring a knockdown. the way i see it, there's advantages in using the super.

1) early uses when both have equal health or full meters. no harm since opponents cannot gain any more meters and have not land any damage.
2) finishing the game off when opponents have low health
3) catching opponents unexpectedly. 
4) comeback ability 28:10 

look at 27:43, when daigo failed to cancel the hop kick, interrupting it result in eryu been flip over in the air. this made me realise kara demon is even safer because interupting the pre frames of kara demon only result eryu been air reset.

Go to 01:39 in that video.



He does like 70% damage, drops it into a ground Raijenken (which is even slower recovery) and he's still safe! So strong lol. Way better than demon by far. He only had one stock and one drive when he did it no need to cancel again either.



You think the demon is that good? Off of a normal throw? C'mon man.

1:53 below





u know if the opponent did quick recovery after benimaru made a mistake with the combos, hwa would have killed him off. that is the high risk i'm talking about, but the opponent have to be alert though to capitalise on the mistake.

the only advantage demon had over benimaru is the success rate honestly. however if you consider overall, there is just no doubt benimaru throw/cmd grab is better LOL ! it's too ridiculous even though there's high risks, because it's unblockable into touch of death haha.

Well the fact that I can do it more often is a reason, but even at 100% meter I can fadc and build 1 bar back, I'm always building meter and keeping options open. Demon requires me to give up my options. Let's say I hit you with a demon for 370, now what? I have to play you the rest of the round or the next round without my options and primary threat. If I fadc, I could build a meter back and do more damage while having 3 bars. I finish the round and I'll have one more bar for a super (if I want to) next round or two fadc combos.





I'd say 90% if not more. What percentage do you think personally?

honestly i think there is nothing wrong with your opinion, 90% is sound because you absolutely hate to take risks since 4 meters is too risky for you.

daigo land an impressive 26 supers while only missing one on xian in the compilation with an ridiculous success rate of 96% to be exact. and he landed more than 50% of it in neutral game instead of after a knockdown.

you can clearly see he is not overly obsessed in landing the super because he does alot of 'small things' before going for kara demon.

1) after a blocked hop kick, using the 1 frame invincibility to beat out opponents normals since opponents move first and it is close enough.
2) when he is chasing after his opponents after some blocked normals or st mk
3) after blocking rose fireball in corner, negative frames on block he knew opponents would be waiting since eryu move first.
4) against snakeye, out of 4 kara demon 3 was on landed on neutral game, he adapted to snakeye's habit of patient play for footsies/ whiff punishes.
5) after blocking dash punch -3, kara demon.
6) at 5:20, xian was jumping around in anticipation of kara demon, didn't work out.

above are great examples of frame data knowledge since he knew after which moves eryu would move first, and that opponents would not be mashing normals on negative frames. 

i have always thought kara demon was threatening in the past, just unsure how viable it would be in high level plays. watching how daigo lands those ridiculous reads, personally i think it should be 50% regardless of knockdown with full meters under 2 conditions.
1) knowing the exact frame data of your opponents chars.
2) knowing the tendency of your opponents.

 

[The Big Daddy C-Master]

Jan 30, 2015 8:27:34 GMT -5 doomfanatiq said:

Honestly, there's 3 possibilities into why daigo does it over the series.
1) daigo just want a faster way of confirming damage after taking into account the nature of the game, forgoing the opportunity cost of fishing for bigger damage through fadc combos.
2) daigo thrives on mind games for example umeshoryu on gamberbee and woolie, so he is trying to introduce new ways to mind play his opponents. go watch daigo vs woolie if you haven't it's hilarious lol...
3) daigo is just showing off as you mentioned. 

Most likely a mixture of the three. With a lot of #3 lol.

Jan 30, 2015 8:27:34 GMT -5 doomfanatiq said:

watch 0:18 of the video


you can see clearly that xiaohai's jab is active but failed because of the invincibility frame i guess.

and if you analyse the video enough, you realised that daigo had a perfect timing and distance such that when opponents are just waking up he would kara cancel the demon, making it such that opponent's are unable to tech due to 2 reasons, because it's too near, and because crouch tech need 3-5 frames start up before active.

and because of the delayed kara, reversal dp should hit him before he kara cancel the hop kick which meant no wastage of meters. it's a new way of strategy to land damage due to how efficient he timed it.

Either during the startup and he was close, or it was on the last active frames (jabs have short active frames, only 2). You can't tech command grabs anyways so that wouldn't be an issue, and you're right that if you get hit from the kara part you keep your meter. It's still an expensive piece of tech that a frametrap or something similar could have sufficed in but it is sure entertaining to watch.
Daigo was sure going ham in that video lol. In some situations they could have escaped but they tried to block (which was shown when they walked back like against Balrog).

Jan 30, 2015 8:27:34 GMT -5 doomfanatiq said:

agreed on your analysis, chunli super is great on defense, while ryu is more mobile.

now let's think about it's application, alot of chars rely on footsies except divekicks or vortex chars, while ryu is more mobile, his is more limited to punishing fireballs chars and nothing on poking chars during footsies. which basically meant chunli have more uses because sf have at least 20 above chars who rely on footsies and most pokes are negative frames on block to prevent spamming which is a clever design by capcom. so the only advantage ryu have left over chunli is anti air and additional damage through combos, additional damage through combos as i mentioned, chunli is better since does more damage due to the raw damage of 340 over ryu 300.
ryu super is better anti air than chunli, but thanks to the ability to combo dp fadc> ultra, ryu is much better off doing dp fadc>ultra, or lp dp> ultra. which essentially limit the uses of ryu's super because he have alternative better anti air.
As a whiff punish, ryu's super advantage is only mobility, while chunli have 2 things better in terms of application.
1) damage
2) longer poke than ryu cr mk, and easier hit confirm than ryu's buffer because ryu have to cancel, while chunli can visually hit confirm it after seeing that st mp/st hp hits opponents.
it's easy to be mislead into thinking ryu super is better because of it's flexibility, however when you carefully list out the applications of each super, you should realise quickly how good chunli's super is. which explains the constant fear of getting hit by chunli when she have super.

I'm not sure I agree there. Ryu can most certainly punish more moves than Chun, not just for blowing up fireballs and combos. He can blow up slower whiffed normals, whiffed specials from a distance (even some charge character moves), blow through focus, and be much safer. I don't like the weakening of zoning and footsies in this game and I think it was done for the casuals, but that's another discussion because I think it leads to a different type of spamming since you have no blockstun in this game.
Ryu has better damage output overall over Chun and he doesn't seem to need his meter as much, maybe for the occasional fireball, but Chun has to cover her bad wakeup. Also Ryu often out damages his ultra with his super since Ultras are scaled so hard. Also dp is more unsafe so it isn't used as much into ultra.
Some people prefer the motion vs the charge, but the motion can be used in more situations and it is safer on block by a huge margin and doesn't continue on whiff. I think Chun's U2 works for her, but I think many characters would be instantly far better if they had Ryu's super. Could you imagine Zangief, Sakura, Blanka, Viper, or a host of other characters with a 3 frame high damage projectile that punishes so much and limits so much movement? It simply has more potential.

Jan 30, 2015 8:27:34 GMT -5 doomfanatiq said:

my opinions about throws is quite different from you though, throws in sf is less risky because of below.
1) max damage from a whiff throw is only 300-500 considering reversal ultra, unlike kof13 where whiffing throws = whiffing st hp = dead if opponent anticipate throws by neutral jumps. 
2) tech by opponents = resets situations. not much risks there.
3) delayed throws beat crouch tech before it's active frames, also beat reversal dp.

Remember normal throws do not whiff in Kof XIII, they also beat crouchers because they cannot crouch tech. You also option select a standing C or D which in most cases is an anti air normal so it isn't even bad to begin with. Two button throws end up being weird in design for some reason.
Throws in Kof seldomly get punished. In SF both command and normal grabs have whiff animations so you can catch them. I even punished some in my video here:


Throws are even done to build meter in Kof, and you'd need to predict them in advance from a player who uses it recklessly. You can't punish them on reaction unless it's Clark's armor grab or something. There is simply more going on in Kof and characters with grabs have far more options so you have to be aware of much more. With Zangief his game is more linear and easier to react to.
Teching throws resets the situation in both games though. Also opening people in SF4 is a pain because crouch teching is dumb, you pretty much HAVE to frame trap in this game, which is just silly.

Jan 30, 2015 8:27:34 GMT -5 doomfanatiq said:

as for the risk rewards of HD combos confirming vs raw neomax. raw neomax is too rare because blockable neomax is useless except to punish some slow recovery special moves, and unblockable raw neomax are only used in desperation due to the low success rate because there are too many escape options. although it is not that hard to land cmd grab in kof13, but bear in mind the success rate is still much lower than compared to sf kara demon. i would say it is more comparable to sf throws because of crouch tech been a strong escape option though.

Nah, if you think Chun Li's super is amazing check out the neomaxes.
1. Vice has a great Neomax that's a 3frame punish and goes full screen.
2. Mature has a fast one that hits as an overhead.
3. Mai's is simply amazing and is a 2 *frame* punish and she covers the air and the ground. Easy to lock people down with that.
4. Saiki's covers the entire screen.
5. Maxima's covers the entire screen while starting up fast.
6. Ex Iori's is unblockable and leaps.
7. Ash's is a fast command grab.
8. Yuri is a fast air blast and can be done off of her f+A
9. Kings is also a fast air blast and can really hurt.
10. Kyo's is fast and is a full screen projectile.
11. Benimaru's is fast and he can aim his, it also covers a lot of space.
12.Daimon's is a counter that doesn't telegraphed.
13. Elizabeth's is a counter.
14. Duo Lon's is also a fast grab.
15. Takuma's is a dp/misogi move.
Etc, etc. There are many good ones, but why do it raw when you can combo it, outside of a few situations where you are going to checkmate the opponent.

Jan 30, 2015 8:27:34 GMT -5 doomfanatiq said:

the predictability of sf on wake up is the best reason for why daigo attempted so many demons on opponent's wake up in my opinion, he knew the only escape option is to commit to jumping, but in high level play nobody would risk jumping on wake up.

Predictability means there is less to react to, whereas in Kof you have more to look out for. Many opponents simply weren't prepared for that gameplan, just like people fell for Viper, Gen, and Seth gimmicks a lot when they were using new tech. This is the same thing. They still have their uses, but many of their shenanigans aren't that useful anymore against good players over and over.

Jan 30, 2015 8:27:34 GMT -5 doomfanatiq said:

i'm not sure why u never seen it, but personally i have seen benimaru players dying due to whiffing throws/cmd grab when attempting after a jump or running over. 
1) when you run over, you expose yourself to pokes potentially leading to HD combos depending on chars. you cannot block when running over.
2) when you run over to whiff throw, whiff normals come out instead, and benimaru cl hp do not hit high targets, which meant that opponents most likely did a defensive high jump to whiff it, leading into huge dmg.
3) when you jump over, it's much safer, but benimaru have a more 'floaty' jumps than other chars like lori, which meant that it is easier to anti air. but the same risks apply if you attempt empty jump over throws/cmd grab.

I've seen Iori's rekka infinite be punished more. Beni recovers fast from his moves, so usually he's pretty safe if he drops it. Basically the rewards far outweigh the risks.
You always take a risk with whatever you do (or else the game would be unbalanced), but it's hard for an opponent to deal with Beni's great normals, great speed, zoning, throw, dp, command grab, and his really *high* and fast jump (which is a good thing for him) combined with his stupid jumping d which allows him to go wild. Beni has no problem opening people up.
I think sometimes you can go slow and just zone them into the corner, but sometimes speed is much better.

Jan 30, 2015 8:27:34 GMT -5 doomfanatiq said:

honestly in kof13, you doesn't have to run if you are not attempting cmd grab/throw, the normal walkspeed is fast enough for normal zone/pokes. running is a playstyle catered for offensive minded people like myself to pressure opponents. 

benimaru neomax is amazing, can be used as anti air also LOL. but still 90% of the time you are right he should be doing other things because it's not unblockable and anti air is not as reliable because short jumps are insanely fast lol.

Beni is so amazing because he has a great combination of defense and offense with great reward for the risk he takes. He's an annoying turtler, with crazy mixups as well.

Jan 30, 2015 8:27:34 GMT -5 doomfanatiq said:

LOL, that's a funny way of putting it 
true dp that cannot be safe jump is strong, but the get out of jail card requires 2 meters, which i think is fair enough considering that's like the only reliable way to escape for ryu/ken/sagat/oni, chars with bad bd and there's no other escape options unlike kof rolls/counter. there's nothing op about it in my opinion because of the costs of 2 meters, other chars have bd costing 0, bison ex dr, ex pc, teleport costing 0-1 meters, of course it should be 2 meters> 1 meters> 0 meters. spending 2 meters to get punished on -5 is quite dumb in my opinion. 
ya eryu got weaker because of dp -5, but eryu have a viable bd, while others got hit harder because of the lack of alternatives.

Yea but you can still dp and backdash, being able to do an invincible reversal, stay safe, and keep pressure is just too much reward for no risk on a move like that, especially when you get ultra combos on it.
Shotos have solid mobility and tools so they'll live. Evil Ryu got hurt more from his unblockables being taken away. Those were just cheap.

Jan 30, 2015 8:27:34 GMT -5 doomfanatiq said:

i cannot argue with that because it's strictly your opinion of valuing lower costs over unblockable. i respect it honestly, but i think it's also hard to deny the fact that's it's abit more 'risky' to continue the game with landing fundamentals after scoring a knockdown. the way i see it, there's advantages in using the super.

1) early uses when both have equal health or full meters. no harm since opponents cannot gain any more meters and have not land any damage.
2) finishing the game off when opponents have low health
3) catching opponents unexpectedly. 
4) comeback ability 28:10 
look at 27:43, when daigo failed to cancel the hop kick, interrupting it result in eryu been flip over in the air. this made me realise kara demon is even safer because interupting the pre frames of kara demon only result eryu been air reset.

Depending on what version he uses too though. Overhead kara demon can be hit out in full, and if an opponent reads him with the right move he takes a lot of damage. Heaven forbid me make an execution error and end up in their face.
It's not just the lower cost. It's the lower risk (you're using a far poke with a blockstring), you get more damage, stun, and screen advantage, and you build more meter. Demon's are good because they can be unpredictable when you condition them. I prefer resets over hard knockdowns now because of the stun potential.

Jan 30, 2015 8:27:34 GMT -5 doomfanatiq said:

1:53 below


u know if the opponent did quick recovery after benimaru made a mistake with the combos, hwa would have killed him off. that is the high risk i'm talking about, but the opponent have to be alert though to capitalise on the mistake.

When I showed the vid I was highlighting the fact that he missed and survived and that was the ground version. Keep in mind that Beni is harder to punish is he uses the air version and his projectile has insane acive frames that Hwa was scared to challenge. Also it's a bad idea to roll in the corner off of a knockdown because you can be grabbed... right back into infinite. People almost never land a full infinite from almost full health, they usually drop it but they usually don't get punished because of his projectile's screen presence. It's a nuisance.

Jan 30, 2015 8:27:34 GMT -5 doomfanatiq said:

the only advantage demon had over benimaru is the success rate honestly. however if you consider overall, there is just no doubt benimaru throw/cmd grab is better LOL ! it's too ridiculous even though there's high risks, because it's unblockable into touch of death haha.

Well Beni just has so many ways to land it. I'd bet if a Benimaru was set on it he could land more grab setups than Evil Ryu would land demon because there is just no cost to it.
Takuma has a grab into death combo too, but his grab has no cost (unless he uses the invincible version) it's "guess wrong and die" which is far cheaper than demon.

Jan 30, 2015 8:27:34 GMT -5 doomfanatiq said:

honestly i think there is nothing wrong with your opinion, 90% is sound because you absolutely hate to take risks since 4 meters is too risky for you.

daigo land an impressive 26 supers while only missing one on xian in the compilation with an ridiculous success rate of 96% to be exact. and he landed more than 50% of it in neutral game instead of after a knockdown.

Yea people were caught off guard like they were caught off guard by Gen, Akuma, Seth, and Viper. They'll be adapting and I don't think he will go crazy with it as much.
Look at the success rate of FADC and what Sako has done with that. He pulled some insane victories using it. He did finish off Xian with Demon though.

Jan 30, 2015 8:27:34 GMT -5 doomfanatiq said:

you can clearly see he is not overly obsessed in landing the super because he does alot of 'small things' before going for kara demon.

1) after a blocked hop kick, using the 1 frame invincibility to beat out opponents normals since opponents move first and it is close enough.
2) when he is chasing after his opponents after some blocked normals or st mk
3) after blocking rose fireball in corner, negative frames on block he knew opponents would be waiting since eryu move first.
4) against snakeye, out of 4 kara demon 3 was on landed on neutral game, he adapted to snakeye's habit of patient play for footsies/ whiff punishes.
5) after blocking dash punch -3, kara demon.
6) at 5:20, xian was jumping around in anticipation of kara demon, didn't work out.

above are great examples of frame data knowledge since he knew after which moves eryu would move first, and that opponents would not be mashing normals on negative frames. 

i have always thought kara demon was threatening in the past, just unsure how viable it would be in high level plays. watching how daigo lands those ridiculous reads, personally i think it should be 50% regardless of knockdown with full meters under 2 conditions.
1) knowing the exact frame data of your opponents chars.
2) knowing the tendency of your opponents.

 

All part of having good fundamentals meaning you should condition them. I agree with the advantages of it, I just would not use it most of the time because of the cost/reward ratio.

[doomfanatiq]

sorry was busy the past few days, but here we go 

Either during the startup and he was close, or it was on the last active frames (jabs have short active frames, only 2). You can't tech command grabs anyways so that wouldn't be an issue, and you're right that if you get hit from the kara part you keep your meter. It's still an expensive piece of tech that a frametrap or something similar could have sufficed in but it is sure entertaining to watch.

Daigo was sure going ham in that video lol. In some situations they could have escaped but they tried to block (which was shown when they walked back like against Balrog).

ya cmd grabs cannot be tech but there's many versions of cmd grabs that are slower that makes it easier to be interrupt before been active.

frame trap loses delay crouch tech, and it's a mind game to depending on how long u delay your frame trap lol, which meant it's not that viable in high level because most pros do delay crouch tech on wake up to avoid 'normal' frame trap timing, and if daigo delay the frame trap timing any later he would be at risk to throws and jabs of 'normal timing' on opponent's wake up. basically it's a form of guess for frame traps, which severely limit the success rate

as for the situation to escape it is impossible to escape as long as daigo perform in range. 2 reasons below
wiki.shoryuken.com/Super_Street_Fighter_IV/Game_Systems/Prejump_Frames

1) after the flash, it is only 1 frame before active, see the link above, there are actually 4 pre jump frames, impossible for anyone to jump after seeing the 'flash'
2) because demon range is longer than eryu throw. this is very surprising to me but you can test it. try whiffing eryu throw on dummy, then perform a demon after, and set dummy to jump, dummy will get hit by demon even though the throw whiff.

daigo's new style is hype and so entertaining haha.

I'm not sure I agree there. Ryu can most certainly punish more moves than Chun, not just for blowing up fireballs and combos. He can blow up slower whiffed normals, whiffed specials from a distance (even some charge character moves), blow through focus, and be much safer. I don't like the weakening of zoning and footsies in this game and I think it was done for the casuals, but that's another discussion because I think it leads to a different type of spamming since you have no blockstun in this game.

Ryu has better damage output overall over Chun and he doesn't seem to need his meter as much, maybe for the occasional fireball, but Chun has to cover her bad wakeup. Also Ryu often out damages his ultra with his super since Ultras are scaled so hard. Also dp is more unsafe so it isn't used as much into ultra.

Some people prefer the motion vs the charge, but the motion can be used in more situations and it is safer on block by a huge margin and doesn't continue on whiff. I think Chun's U2 works for her, but I think many characters would be instantly far better if they had Ryu's super. Could you imagine Zangief, Sakura, Blanka, Viper, or a host of other characters with a 3 frame high damage projectile that punishes so much and limits so much movement? It simply has more potential.

you mean use it as random raw whiff punishing ? honestly i never seen anybody used it as raw whiff punish before, it's too risky. the most they do is whiff punish cr mk > super, but even cr mk > fadc > ultra is better in terms of meter management.

ryu does have better damage, but that comes from his normals and not super. i think you are refering to SP damage haha

i guess this is where we disagree, imagine zangief sakura blanka viper with chunli super lol, i would trade ryu's for chunli's super if given a choice, but that's just my personal opinion.

Remember normal throws do not whiff in Kof XIII, they also beat crouchers because they cannot crouch tech. You also option select a standing C or D which in most cases is an anti air normal so it isn't even bad to begin with. Two button throws end up being weird in design for some reason.

Throws in Kof seldomly get punished. In SF both command and normal grabs have whiff animations so you can catch them. I even punished some in my video here:

@1:18 of your video, punishing a whiff throw with nj have the same concept as kof, because not everybody's normals when whiffing throw have high hitbox, for example benimaru st C/D would whiff if opponents high NJ. that's the huge risks i'm talking about. but that's just the nature of the game, whiffing cmd grab or throws when running over if the char st C/D doesn't have a high hitbox like kyo/lori is gg. only benimaru risk reward of throw/cmd grab is better because he can combo into it, the rest of the casts have nothing like it which is why the risks are much higher in kof.

i finally get what you mean by throw having higher risks in sf, you are actually refering to throw on opponents wake up while i was refering to running over or jumps in neutral game in kof lol.

basically, we are both correct because, attempting throw on opponents wake up have little risks unless opponents have cmd grabs in kof, while sf have crouch tech.

as for the other situation i'm referring to in neutral game it's much more risky in kof than sf with the example i given above.

Throws are even done to build meter in Kof, and you'd need to predict them in advance from a player who uses it recklessly. You can't punish them on reaction unless it's Clark's armor grab or something. There is simply more going on in Kof and characters with grabs have far more options so you have to be aware of much more. With Zangief his game is more linear and easier to react to.

Teching throws resets the situation in both games though. Also opening people in SF4 is a pain because crouch teching is dumb, you pretty much HAVE to frame trap in this game, which is just silly.

ya, throws are unblockable and they have the same concept in sf and kof, to commit to a read. zangief is linear because he doesn't have jumps or run like kof so it's much easier to zone him out. but once he gets in it becomes another guessing game since spd cannot be tech. btw u know kof throws can be tech on reaction right ? unlike sf where throws cannot be tech once grabbed lol and you have to predict with crouch tech.

Nah, if you think Chun Li's super is amazing check out the neomaxes.

1. Vice has a great Neomax that's a 3frame punish and goes full screen.

2. Mature has a fast one that hits as an overhead.

3. Mai's is simply amazing and is a 2 *frame* punish and she covers the air and the ground. Easy to lock people down with that.

4. Saiki's covers the entire screen.

5. Maxima's covers the entire screen while starting up fast.

6. Ex Iori's is unblockable and leaps.

7. Ash's is a fast command grab.

8. Yuri is a fast air blast and can be done off of her f+A

9. Kings is also a fast air blast and can really hurt.

10. Kyo's is fast and is a full screen projectile.

11. Benimaru's is fast and he can aim his, it also covers a lot of space.

12.Daimon's is a counter that doesn't telegraphed.

13. Elizabeth's is a counter.

14. Duo Lon's is also a fast grab.

15. Takuma's is a dp/misogi move.

Etc, etc. There are many good ones, but why do it raw when you can combo it, outside of a few situations where you are going to checkmate the opponent.

lol chunli super would be useless in kof because of the pace of the game, the reason why her super is so amazing in sf though is because sf is a very slow game and the emphasis is on footsies.

there are still useful application for raw neomax with unique feature, but due to the risk reward of kof, it's highly unlikely to use outside of desperation because whiffing it = gg. sf doesn't have touch of death so in that sense it's safer to whiff super/ultra than kof13 whiffing supers/neomax.

Predictability means there is less to react to, whereas in Kof you have more to look out for. Many opponents simply weren't prepared for that gameplan, just like people fell for Viper, Gen, and Seth gimmicks a lot when they were using new tech. This is the same thing. They still have their uses, but many of their shenanigans aren't that useful anymore against good players over and over.



Read more: thacmaster.proboards.com/thread/2149/meter-management-fighting-games#ixzz3QZNBy6Jm

the thing about viper, gen and seth is, they have viable moves/ setups to force you into guessing, regardless of risks rewards, i don't think it's considered gimmicks as long as it is viable. daigo have so much exp with poongko seth already and yet poonkgo still did exceptionally well with the nerf seth, and he managed to beat daigo too with the weakest version of seth vs the strongest version of eryu i think. seth will never be low tier given the amount of options he have.

as for gen, honestly fake crossups/unblockables are not gimmicks lol, i have followed xian for a long time, he is godlike at footsies but the most godlike thing he have is, the undying spirit of going into training mode to find all the BS with gen he could find lol. it's really hard to block for fake crossups, because, with a little different timing, or depending on buttons pressed, it can be left or right. and let's not go into details for the BS that is unblockables LOL.

as for viper... no comments because she simply is not a sf char LOL, so i have no idea whether her's is gimmicks or viable techs.

I've seen Iori's rekka infinite be punished more. Beni recovers fast from his moves, so usually he's pretty safe if he drops it. Basically the rewards far outweigh the risks.

You always take a risk with whatever you do (or else the game would be unbalanced), but it's hard for an opponent to deal with Beni's great normals, great speed, zoning, throw, dp, command grab, and his really *high* and fast jump (which is a good thing for him) combined with his stupid jumping d which allows him to go wild. Beni has no problem opening people up.

I think sometimes you can go slow and just zone them into the corner, but sometimes speed is much better.

he does recover fast, but not fast enough to go unpunish if the opponents do a quick recovery. the reason why i think the risks rewards are even is because, u succeed and he die, u fail and die if he punish depending on which mistake. and the fact that there are 2 critical issues we have to considering when weighing it. first, the risks taken to land throws, secondly, the risks in event of dropping the loop. both are justified since landing it in an ideal situation = death for opponents

regardless of the risks, benimaru is top tier simply for the fact he had this unique tool which other chars are lacking. he was not top tier before the discovery of this loop.

Beni is so amazing because he has a great combination of defense and offense with great reward for the risk he takes. He's an annoying turtler, with crazy mixups as well.

agreed, benimaru is so good and well rounded that he can play in almost any positions, the discovery of the loop reinforce that too.

Yea but you can still dp and backdash, being able to do an invincible reversal, stay safe, and keep pressure is just too much reward for no risk on a move like that, especially when you get ultra combos on it.

Shotos have solid mobility and tools so they'll live. Evil Ryu got hurt more from his unblockables being taken away. Those were just cheap

i disagree honestly, look at how far ryu/sagat have fallen down the charts because of those nerfs according to the japanese. there are other key factors that result in that though, for ryu it was dwu, for sagat it was ts nerf. 

Depending on what version he uses too though. Overhead kara demon can be hit out in full, and if an opponent reads him with the right move he takes a lot of damage. Heaven forbid me make an execution error and end up in their face.

It's not just the lower cost. It's the lower risk (you're using a far poke with a blockstring), you get more damage, stun, and screen advantage, and you build more meter. Demon's are good because they can be unpredictable when you condition them. I prefer resets over hard knockdowns now because of the stun potential.

overhead kara demon sucks because it doesn't shorten the range between you and your opponents. normal demon is weak because of the range, the only reason why kara demon is good is if the char have a move that shorten the distance, oni step kick and eryu hop kick. 


as for the risks, i think i have mentioned before, but there's no guarantee of landing the cr mk fadc combos over the entire course of 1 round. the risks accumulated during this 'course' is far higher than if you were to use it unexpectedly. but granted, there's no way to conjure those % up, so it's impossible for us to know if your strategy vs daigo's is safer.

When I showed the vid I was highlighting the fact that he missed and survived and that was the ground version. Keep in mind that Beni is harder to punish is he uses the air version and his projectile has insane acive frames that Hwa was scared to challenge. Also it's a bad idea to roll in the corner off of a knockdown because you can be grabbed... right back into infinite. People almost never land a full infinite from almost full health, they usually drop it but they usually don't get punished because of his projectile's screen presence. It's a nuisance.

ya i understand your concept, but just pointing out he would have died if opponents quick recover. air version have more recovery but it lands further so opponent's only option is far poke into direct hd combos. quick recovery roll cannot be grab because of full invincibility, only normal roll can be grab.
dreamcancel.com/wiki/index.php?title=The_King_of_Fighters_XIII

the downside to quick recovery is that after you recover you are immediately throwable, unlike after rising normally which explains why we have to run for a longer time to attempt throw when opponents wake up.

Well Beni just has so many ways to land it. I'd bet if a Benimaru was set on it he could land more grab setups than Evil Ryu would land demon because there is just no cost to it.

Takuma has a grab into death combo too, but his grab has no cost (unless he uses the invincible version) it's "guess wrong and die" which is far cheaper than demon.

let's imagine you are correct, and since benimaru have a infinite combo why wouldn't we attempt throws then?

because it's practically impossible to have the kind of success rate comparable to kara demon, because there's too many escape options as i said in neutral situation, unlike kara demon which shortens the range almost instantly, running/jumping is so much slower than kara demon. this is the reason why the success rate for throws and cmd grabs are so much lower than super demon.

Yea people were caught off guard like they were caught off guard by Gen, Akuma, Seth, and Viper. They'll be adapting and I don't think he will go crazy with it as much.

Look at the success rate of FADC and what Sako has done with that. He pulled some insane victories using it. He did finish off Xian with Demon though

fadc starting point is cr mk, actually this is what i have emphasized the whole time, you can go and count the amount of cr mk thrown out and kara demon been thrown out by daigo and sako, even if sako's footsies is better than daigo, you quickly realise the low success rate of cr mk as compared to kara demon lol, mainly because cr mk can be blocked. that's the key difference between the success rate of cr mk vs kara demon.

fighting games are not as renowned as football, but in football matches you have absolute statistic and alot of analysis. unfortunately it is lacking of fighting games so we can only base on our assumption, for example, what is the stat of blocked fireballs, how many fireballs were thrown out by daigo in comparison to sako eryu?  those are what prompt me to count the actual stat of successful demon haha 

All part of having good fundamentals meaning you should condition them. I agree with the advantages of it, I just would not use it most of the time because of the cost/reward ratio.

good fundamentals is still the key to defeating opponents, fadc combos and kara demons are just bonus tools to expand the options. there are different styles a char can be used, for example itabashi is hated for his random ness in beating luffy while some EH posters respect snakeeye more for a more calculated risk rewards footsies game even when he lost luffy in evo. both are one of the best zangief players. 

so your opinion is not wrong just because you prefer to be safer than sorry haha. it's going to be very hype in the next topanga or long sets tournament, because we are going to find out if there are any answers to kara demon. and it's going to be crazy if we get a compliation next of daigo whiffing kara demon instead hahaha

[The Big Daddy C-Master]

Feb 2, 2015 3:26:34 GMT -5 doomfanatiq said:

sorry was busy the past few days, but here we go 

I'll forgive you.

Feb 2, 2015 3:26:34 GMT -5 doomfanatiq said:

ya cmd grabs cannot be tech but there's many versions of cmd grabs that are slower that makes it easier to be interrupt before been active.

frame trap loses delay crouch tech, and it's a mind game to depending on how long u delay your frame trap lol, which meant it's not that viable in high level because most pros do delay crouch tech on wake up to avoid 'normal' frame trap timing, and if daigo delay the frame trap timing any later he would be at risk to throws and jabs of 'normal timing' on opponent's wake up. basically it's a form of guess for frame traps, which severely limit the success rate

The only grab that has that kind of startup time is really just Clark's armor gab, but that has a butt ton of invincibility frames and if you couldn't punish that move it would be broken.

Yes, you have to deal with frametrap/throw, all part of SF. Evil Ryu also has his hop kick. The key is to read your opponent out and know how to beat his playstyle.

Feb 2, 2015 3:26:34 GMT -5 doomfanatiq said:

as for the situation to escape it is impossible to escape as long as daigo perform in range. 2 reasons below
wiki.shoryuken.com/Super_Street_Fighter_IV/Game_Systems/Prejump_Frames

1) after the flash, it is only 1 frame before active, see the link above, there are actually 4 pre jump frames, impossible for anyone to jump after seeing the 'flash'
2) because demon range is longer than eryu throw. this is very surprising to me but you can test it. try whiffing eryu throw on dummy, then perform a demon after, and set dummy to jump, dummy will get hit by demon even though the throw whiff.

daigo's new style is hype and so entertaining haha.

Right, after the flash you can't escape any throw like that worth its weight in salt (except Balrog's). That's why it's useful. You can poke them out of the kara part though. Same with DP.

Depends on Kara through, cr mk kara throw has some stupid range actually lol.

Feb 2, 2015 3:26:34 GMT -5 doomfanatiq said:

you mean use it as random raw whiff punishing ? honestly i never seen anybody used it as raw whiff punish before, it's too risky. the most they do is whiff punish cr mk > super, but even cr mk > fadc > ultra is better in terms of meter management.

ryu does have better damage, but that comes from his normals and not super. i think you are refering to SP damage haha

i guess this is where we disagree, imagine zangief sakura blanka viper with chunli super lol, i would trade ryu's for chunli's super if given a choice, but that's just my personal opinion.

It can be done on slow normal and whiffed focus attacks. I've seen people do full combos into super and that hurts. That way you keep the ultra. At the same times ultras are pretty much free, so yea if you can get damage you should usually use it. But his super scales better in many occasions.
Just like Chun's U1 is better for projectiles but not for other sues.
I don't think their super would add much. Zangief can already punish anything with 360. I guess some could get some use out of it. Shinku Hadoken would be broken on Zangief.

Feb 2, 2015 3:26:34 GMT -5 doomfanatiq said:

1:18 of your video, punishing a whiff throw with nj have the same concept as kof, because not everybody's normals when whiffing throw have high hitbox, for example benimaru st C/D would whiff if opponents high NJ. that's the huge risks i'm talking about. but that's just the nature of the game, whiffing cmd grab or throws when running over if the char st C/D doesn't have a high hitbox like kyo/lori is gg. only benimaru risk reward of throw/cmd grab is better because he can combo into it, the rest of the casts have nothing like it which is why the risks are much higher in kof.

I'm guessing you mean my Gouken punish.

They work differently in Kof though since throws don't whiff and your high jump won't usually punish a standing close since they are usually fast or have great speed. A hop might but the close C and D should *always* punish that. Thank goodness because anti air hitboxes in Kof XIII are kind of crappy to be honest.

Feb 2, 2015 3:26:34 GMT -5 doomfanatiq said:

i finally get what you mean by throw having higher risks in sf, you are actually refering to throw on opponents wake up while i was refering to running over or jumps in neutral game in kof lol.

basically, we are both correct because, attempting throw on opponents wake up have little risks unless opponents have cmd grabs in kof, while sf have crouch tech.

as for the other situation i'm referring to in neutral game it's much more risky in kof than sf with the example i given above.

Well in some ways Kof is more risky, but it's better in a way that everybody has more options on offense/defense so you're not just out of options because you didn't pick Akuma or something like you are in SF.

Feb 2, 2015 3:26:34 GMT -5 doomfanatiq said:

ya, throws are unblockable and they have the same concept in sf and kof, to commit to a read. zangief is linear because he doesn't have jumps or run like kof so it's much easier to zone him out. but once he gets in it becomes another guessing game since spd cannot be tech. btw u know kof throws can be tech on reaction right ? unlike sf where throws cannot be tech once grabbed lol and you have to predict with crouch tech.

Yea Zangief forces you to guess, but his throws start up the same speed and he doesn't have the great options that Clark or Daimon do. Meterless invincible grabs that can be super comboed into, hops, rolls, stronger pokes, way more mobility. If you gave those to Zangief he would be broken due to SF's design.
Also the only game I know where you can tech on reaction would be like Blazblue. If you could tech on reaction in Kof XIII throws would be almost useless. They're good because you *can't* crouch tech them. Mashing crouchtech is just bad design and it's a big reason the game is so slow in SF4.

Feb 2, 2015 3:26:34 GMT -5 doomfanatiq said:

lol chunli super would be useless in kof because of the pace of the game, the reason why her super is so amazing in sf though is because sf is a very slow game and the emphasis is on footsies.

there are still useful application for raw neomax with unique feature, but due to the risk reward of kof, it's highly unlikely to use outside of desperation because whiffing it = gg. sf doesn't have touch of death so in that sense it's safer to whiff super/ultra than kof13 whiffing supers/neomax.

Well my point is that there are moves that aren't unblockable that have a very high chance of landing. Chun Li's is an example like Ryu's super fireball. Same with Mai's 2f startup full screen move that punishes anything. Chun Li's isn't even safe on block at *all*, but many Neomaxes are hard to do anything about.
Ever seen anybody punish Saiki's full screen super? Maxima's, Beni's, and Kyo's are fast too. But you're still better off comboing into them.

Feb 2, 2015 3:26:34 GMT -5 doomfanatiq said:

the thing about viper, gen and seth is, they have viable moves/ setups to force you into guessing, regardless of risks rewards, i don't think it's considered gimmicks as long as it is viable. daigo have so much exp with poongko seth already and yet poonkgo still did exceptionally well with the nerf seth, and he managed to beat daigo too with the weakest version of seth vs the strongest version of eryu i think. seth will never be low tier given the amount of options he have.

as for gen, honestly fake crossups/unblockables are not gimmicks lol, i have followed xian for a long time, he is godlike at footsies but the most godlike thing he have is, the undying spirit of going into training mode to find all the BS with gen he could find lol. it's really hard to block for fake crossups, because, with a little different timing, or depending on buttons pressed, it can be left or right. and let's not go into details for the BS that is unblockables LOL.

as for viper... no comments because she simply is not a sf char LOL, so i have no idea whether her's is gimmicks or viable techs.

Those characters all have a lot of gimmicks, not saying that's all the pros rely on (they can't as they're gimmicks) but they all had things that at one time were "unbeatable" but later were discovered.
Seth will never be weak and I strongly disagree on this being the strongest version of Evil Ryu seeing as he lost his on bs unblockables and ambiguous jumpins, those are just outright broken. Gen got huge reward off of his too which was just broken.
Viper has gimmicks, but much of it doesn't work often anymore. She's still strong however.

Feb 2, 2015 3:26:34 GMT -5 doomfanatiq said:

he does recover fast, but not fast enough to go unpunish if the opponents do a quick recovery. the reason why i think the risks rewards are even is because, u succeed and he die, u fail and die if he punish depending on which mistake. and the fact that there are 2 critical issues we have to considering when weighing it. first, the risks taken to land throws, secondly, the risks in event of dropping the loop. both are justified since landing it in an ideal situation = death for opponents

I've pretty much seen Beni touch of death'ed from a missed infinite. It's a pain punishing his other moves. His fireball has a lot of active frames and you can still eat it getting up. It recovers fast enough for him to keep it going.

Feb 2, 2015 3:26:34 GMT -5 doomfanatiq said:

regardless of the risks, benimaru is top tier simply for the fact he had this unique tool which other chars are lacking. he was not top tier before the discovery of this loop.


agreed, benimaru is so good and well rounded that he can play in almost any positions, the discovery of the loop reinforce that too.

Well Benimaru went up in strength as the game went along. Remember how nobody thought Kim was good and that Hwa was god?
Benimaru without the inifnite is still top. He has no weaknesses at all and is flat out better than characters like Kensou and Athena who he has the tools off plus none of their real weaknesses either.

Feb 2, 2015 3:26:34 GMT -5 doomfanatiq said:

i disagree honestly, look at how far ryu/sagat have fallen down the charts because of those nerfs according to the japanese. there are other key factors that result in that though, for ryu it was dwu, for sagat it was ts nerf. 

Well Ryu along with Evil Ryu was the most unchanged character in the cast, which is another reason I'm calling BS (not to you, but just in general) on Evil Ryu magically rising to the top while he magically fell to the bottom. They're both pretty much the same minus a few insignificant tweaks, Evil Ryu lost all of his setups which were more powerful than Ryu's safe jumps. Akuma lost vortex and didn't drop that low.
Remember Sagat got hit a bit more because people thought vortex would make defensive characters god, which is why Guile got a health nerf.

Feb 2, 2015 3:26:34 GMT -5 doomfanatiq said:

overhead kara demon sucks because it doesn't shorten the range between you and your opponents. normal demon is weak because of the range, the only reason why kara demon is good is if the char have a move that shorten the distance, oni step kick and eryu hop kick. 

Well overhead can be good because people like to turtle against overheads, it's not just distance it's also yomi as well.

Feb 2, 2015 3:26:34 GMT -5 doomfanatiq said:

as for the risks, i think i have mentioned before, but there's no guarantee of landing the cr mk fadc combos over the entire course of 1 round. the risks accumulated during this 'course' is far higher than if you were to use it unexpectedly. but granted, there's no way to conjure those % up, so it's impossible for us to know if your strategy vs daigo's is safer.

There's no guarantee of landing anything, cr mk has no cost so you can do it indefinitely and raging demon doesn't. My issue isn't even so much the risk, but the cost. The reward on FADC from st mp, cr mk, clst hp or cr hp outweigh the demon's by far and you don't lose all of that meter.

Feb 2, 2015 3:26:34 GMT -5 doomfanatiq said:

ya i understand your concept, but just pointing out he would have died if opponents quick recover. air version have more recovery but it lands further so opponent's only option is far poke into direct hd combos. quick recovery roll cannot be grab because of full invincibility, only normal roll can be grab.
dreamcancel.com/wiki/index.php?title=The_King_of_Fighters_XIII

the downside to quick recovery is that after you recover you are immediately throwable, unlike after rising normally which explains why we have to run for a longer time to attempt throw when opponents wake up.

Right that's what I said earlier, if you recover you can be grabbed, which is why nobody does it in the corner. He wasn't sure Beni was going to drop it at the time and did what made most since on instinct. The ground rainjenken is still slow but has a lot of active frames. Which is why he gets to go unpunished. The air version is even worse because he's pretty much safe when he hits the ground and if he's in the air you'll only air reset him off of a hit. Now if Hwa was drunk and did his dp+D into a combo Beni would have been hurt badly. Too situational though.

Feb 2, 2015 3:26:34 GMT -5 doomfanatiq said:

let's imagine you are correct, and since benimaru have a infinite combo why wouldn't we attempt throws then?

because it's practically impossible to have the kind of success rate comparable to kara demon, because there's too many escape options as i said in neutral situation, unlike kara demon which shortens the range almost instantly, running/jumping is so much slower than kara demon. this is the reason why the success rate for throws and cmd grabs are so much lower than super demon.

Yes but you can complement Beni's grab with his hop, f+b, jump, crossup D, command throw ex, frame trap. Using all of his options means he'll land more per round and it costs him nothing to confirm unless he uses ex invincible grab, but that cost is small and he gets the meter back anyways.

Feb 2, 2015 3:26:34 GMT -5 doomfanatiq said:

fadc starting point is cr mk, actually this is what i have emphasized the whole time, you can go and count the amount of cr mk thrown out and kara demon been thrown out by daigo and sako, even if sako's footsies is better than daigo, you quickly realise the low success rate of cr mk as compared to kara demon lol, mainly because cr mk can be blocked. that's the key difference between the success rate of cr mk vs kara demon.

Well only in Daigo's instance this one night because nobody uses it. Now that people are aware of it he'll have to work harder to land it.
Also cr mk has no cost whereas demon requires 4 bars. Cr mk is also a basic pressure tool designed to keep them grounded and defensive while he implements his other options, kind of like Beni's grab. It doesn't need to hit every time as that's not the only purpose of the move.

Feb 2, 2015 3:26:34 GMT -5 doomfanatiq said:

fighting games are not as renowned as football, but in football matches you have absolute statistic and alot of analysis. unfortunately it is lacking of fighting games so we can only base on our assumption, for example, what is the stat of blocked fireballs, how many fireballs were thrown out by daigo in comparison to sako eryu?  those are what prompt me to count the actual stat of successful demon haha 

Well fireballs and pokes don't have to hit all of the time, they have other purposes like controlling space, pressure, and traps and are fundamental to being good at the game meaning you have to know how to use them. Demon is useful but more of something you use after your learn everything else and situationally, that's the main difference.

Feb 2, 2015 3:26:34 GMT -5 doomfanatiq said:

so your opinion is not wrong just because you prefer to be safer than sorry haha. it's going to be very hype in the next topanga or long sets tournament, because we are going to find out if there are any answers to kara demon. and it's going to be crazy if we get a compliation next of daigo whiffing kara demon instead hahaha

Well it's not the risk for me it's more of the cost.

I'm sure Daigo will still land them if he decides to go for it often. I don't believe it will be as often as he did the first night if he goes for it all of the time, people will just adapt. That's what pros do of course.

[doomfanatiq]

The only grab that has that kind of startup time is really just Clark's armor gab, but that has a butt ton of invincibility frames and if you couldn't punish that move it would be broken.



Yes, you have to deal with frametrap/throw, all part of SF. Evil Ryu also has his hop kick. The key is to read your opponent out and know how to beat his playstyle

it's actually fun when landing frame traps for a successful read. but gets depressing since it gets block more than landing it. 

Right, after the flash you can't escape any throw like that worth its weight in salt (except Balrog's). That's why it's useful. You can poke them out of the kara part though. Same with DP.



Depends on Kara through, cr mk kara throw has some stupid range actually lol

i never tested on balrog, so i'm not sure why balrog can jump after the flash, maybe balrog have 0 pre-jump frames lol. ya u can poke them during the pre-frames on neutral game, but impossible on wake up at the timing daigo does it.

agreed, i was really surprised to find out that eryu cr mk kara throw had the same range as kens, though it's harder to do also in my opinion.

It can be done on slow normal and whiffed focus attacks. I've seen people do full combos into super and that hurts. That way you keep the ultra. At the same times ultras are pretty much free, so yea if you can get damage you should usually use it. But his super scales better in many occasions.

Just like Chun's U1 is better for projectiles but not for other sues.

I don't think their super would add much. Zangief can already punish anything with 360. I guess some could get some use out of it. Shinku Hadoken would be broken on Zangief

i think u mean hugo slow recovery normals hahaha, i never seen anyone use it like that though, for me though personally the damage is not worth it, only 300 on raw super.

keeping the ultra is pointless unless you get to land it early on when both have max health, ryu is actually very reliant on the meters because of cr mk> fb untrue block string. daigo mentioned it in his interview, ex fb is the key to defeating infiltration's akuma.

honestly chunli super would be broken on zangief too, can you imagine him getting a lead and just seat back and wait to punish blocked poke lol... that's ridiculous, you cannot get in easily on zangief already and even pokes would be unsafe unlike as compared to zangief having ryu's super. nobody uses focus attacks on zangief anyway so ryu's super would also be much more limited. spd is 2 frames, but i believed they nerf the range in ultra which meant pokes that cannot be punished by spd would be punished by chunli's super.

I'm guessing you mean my Gouken punish.



They work differently in Kof though since throws don't whiff and your high jump won't usually punish a standing close since they are usually fast or have great speed. A hop might but the close C and D should *always* punish that. Thank goodness because anti air hitboxes in Kof XIII are kind of crappy to be honest.

ya exactly lol, that read on gouken throw is godlike too, i wonder why we don't get to see it in high level play, maybe because pros crouch tech 100% of the time.

Well in some ways Kof is more risky, but it's better in a way that everybody has more options on offense/defense so you're not just out of options because you didn't pick Akuma or something like you are in SF

that's the fun part about kof, because of universal mechanics that every char have, u don't feel too much of a handicap if you decide to pick up a lower tier char unlke in sf where you would be instantly limited when deciding to pick dan on char select screen lol.

Yea Zangief forces you to guess, but his throws start up the same speed and he doesn't have the great options that Clark or Daimon do. Meterless invincible grabs that can be super comboed into, hops, rolls, stronger pokes, way more mobility. If you gave those to Zangief he would be broken due to SF's design.

Also the only game I know where you can tech on reaction would be like Blazblue. If you could tech on reaction in Kof XIII throws would be almost useless. They're good because you *can't* crouch tech them. Mashing crouchtech is just bad design and it's a big reason the game is so slow in SF4.

there is a window for teching the throws when seeing your char been thrown. in older kof, throws can be tech on reaction by pressing C/D, regardless of which direction your opponents attempt the throw. 

however in kof13, they changed it to, you can only tech a C throw with C, and a D throw with D, so even if you are able to tech it on reaction, you need to guess which direction your opponent is throwing you. if i'm not wrong, they also decrease the amount of frames to tech the throw when seeing the animation of been thrown. so throws are still tech able on kof13, just harder and becomes a form of 50/50 guessing on directional input.

Well my point is that there are moves that aren't unblockable that have a very high chance of landing. Chun Li's is an example like Ryu's super fireball. Same with Mai's 2f startup full screen move that punishes anything. Chun Li's isn't even safe on block at *all*, but many Neomaxes are hard to do anything about.

Ever seen anybody punish Saiki's full screen super? Maxima's, Beni's, and Kyo's are fast too. But you're still better off comboing into them.

ermm, blockable supers/neomax are normally punished by rolling forward lol, but you are essentially correct that if you blocked the neomax, it is unpunishable for most of the chars unlike sf chunli. so ryu's super is safer in this situation when opponents block it. but honestly, how many super mistake have u seen by pros in high level play for ryu/chunli? i honestly never seen daigo mis use his super except when directional shortcut from cr mk > fb become super, which would never happen in chunli's case. 

I've pretty much seen Beni touch of death'ed from a missed infinite. It's a pain punishing his other moves. His fireball has a lot of active frames and you can still eat it getting up. It recovers fast enough for him to keep it going.

wiki.shoryuken.com/The_King_of_Fighters_XIII/Benimaru

air version, recovery frame 15
ground version, recovery frame 14 or 18 A/C

Most Standing C/D are far pokes and have start up of 5-10 depending on far or close, so there is enough time to punish with poke > HD after whiffed lightning fist after recovery roll.

Well Benimaru went up in strength as the game went along. Remember how nobody thought Kim was good and that Hwa was god?

Benimaru without the inifnite is still top. He has no weaknesses at all and is flat out better than characters like Kensou and Athena who he has the tools off plus none of their real weaknesses either.

agreed, as the game went on and more techs discovered and SNK actually nerf alot of chars in vanilla version while benimaru remained the same. which is why he's top tier now along with the ex chars. Kim was discovered by the koreans/madkof, while benimaru was by reynald when he won evo i think lol.

Well overhead can be good because people like to turtle against overheads, it's not just distance it's also yomi as well.

ya it's a high level yomi also, but a riskier one because at that range it is easy to get hit by reversal dp on opponents wake up, while opponents normally do not attempt dp when they see a short distance between oni and eryu. which makes it ideal to attempt kara demon.

 

There's no guarantee of landing anything, cr mk has no cost so you can do it indefinitely and raging demon doesn't. My issue isn't even so much the risk, but the cost. The reward on FADC from st mp, cr mk, clst hp or cr hp outweigh the demon's by far and you don't lose all of that meter

i see i see, it's the opportunity cost of fadc combos when using demon then that you have issues with.  mine are
1) slow start up of cr mk 7 frames and block-able.
2) st mp fast 4 frame, but situational and limited due to short range poke.
3) lower guarantee of conversion rate, kara demon is not 100% either, but it at least offer higher guarantee rates of 96% (for now) than cr mk/st mp (?%) 

i'm not considering cl hp and cr hp because daigo doesn't use meters for fadc combos when landing those through jump ins, or focus attacks. maybe because of the scaling, and the damage is high enough without meters.

Right that's what I said earlier, if you recover you can be grabbed, which is why nobody does it in the corner. He wasn't sure Beni was going to drop it at the time and did what made most since on instinct. The ground rainjenken is still slow but has a lot of active frames. Which is why he gets to go unpunished. The air version is even worse because he's pretty much safe when he hits the ground and if he's in the air you'll only air reset him off of a hit. Now if Hwa was drunk and did his dp+D into a combo Beni would have been hurt badly. Too situational though.

i thought u meant grabbing during the rolling animation of quick recovery lol... my point was that, you have to be prepared for benimaru players to drop the combos because it's not easy landing the infinite, same as ex lori loop. 

the proper way of counting frame data should be start up + active + recovery = total frames of the moves and i have listed the recovery frames in eariler reference, so benimaru players do not recover in time to block, if the active frames are as you meant active covering up for the landing recovery, there would be no recovery frames which meant the move would be broken lol.

i will test on this same situation though to see if quick recovery can punish benimaru ground fb and get back to u lol

Yes but you can complement Beni's grab with his hop, f+b, jump, crossup D, command throw ex, frame trap. Using all of his options means he'll land more per round and it costs him nothing to confirm unless he uses ex invincible grab, but that cost is small and he gets the meter back anyways.

ya the meters cost is small as compared to eryu lol

Well only in Daigo's instance this one night because nobody uses it. Now that people are aware of it he'll have to work harder to land it.

Also cr mk has no cost whereas demon requires 4 bars. Cr mk is also a basic pressure tool designed to keep them grounded and defensive while he implements his other options, kind of like Beni's grab. It doesn't need to hit every time as that's not the only purpose of the move.

true that, people are generally afraid to get hit by cr mk at that range which is why daigo opt for kara demon unblockable instead, taking into account when opponents are most likely to block under specific situations. 

pretty sure those pros would adapt but it will be interesting to see the solutions they have to offer under the same situation at the same range the next time they play lol.

Well fireballs and pokes don't have to hit all of the time, they have other purposes like controlling space, pressure, and traps and are fundamental to being good at the game meaning you have to know how to use them. Demon is useful but more of something you use after your learn everything else and situationally, that's the main difference.

well i am very curious about the stats after seeing the sako interview saying that daigo is a master at zoning with fireballs. because we have no stats to compare to, so it's more on the assumption instead. the only fact we have is that daigo zone better with kara demon than sako haha

Well it's not the risk for me it's more of the cost.



I'm sure Daigo will still land them if he decides to go for it often. I don't believe it will be as often as he did the first night if he goes for it all of the time, people will just adapt. That's what pros do of course.

ya it's accurate to say daigo would still be able to land them, maybe not as often when his opponents adapt, but i am positive he would still be going for them if fadc doesn't work, it's just the next best alternative thing to do with meters when cr mk fail on paper haha

[The Big Daddy C-Master]

Well we seem to be agreeing on most things at this point, so let's trim it down to the basics.

Feb 2, 2015 23:30:23 GMT -5 doomfanatiq said:

it's actually fun when landing frame traps for a successful read. but gets depressing since it gets block more than landing it. 

That's the SF4 game, all about rock, paper, scissors.

Feb 2, 2015 23:30:23 GMT -5 doomfanatiq said:

i never tested on balrog, so i'm not sure why balrog can jump after the flash, maybe balrog have 0 pre-jump frames lol. ya u can poke them during the pre-frames on neutral game, but impossible on wake up at the timing daigo does it.

What I mean is that you can jump out of his command grab, which is why nobody uses it.

Feb 2, 2015 23:30:23 GMT -5 doomfanatiq said:

i think u mean hugo slow recovery normals hahaha, i never seen anyone use it like that though, for me though personally the damage is not worth it, only 300 on raw super.

No, focus attacks, and good reads on fierce attacks are sufficient. Remember Daigo blowing through Dhalsim?
Most supers do under 400 damage, and 300 is a lot for the amount of versatility it has and for what it can do. Demon is far more limited use and Evil Ryu has much more damage using much less meter (which is my point).

Feb 2, 2015 23:30:23 GMT -5 doomfanatiq said:

keeping the ultra is pointless unless you get to land it early on when both have max health, ryu is actually very reliant on the meters because of cr mk> fb untrue block string. daigo mentioned it in his interview, ex fb is the key to defeating infiltration's akuma.

That depends on the match, but not having a blockstring isn't necessarily bad as you can bait the opponent and punish them because of how fast and good that cr mk is. Evil Ryu needs meter more to make up for his slower pokes. He pretty much has to use it or else he has to work much harder.

Feb 2, 2015 23:30:23 GMT -5 doomfanatiq said:

honestly chunli super would be broken on zangief too, can you imagine him getting a lead and just seat back and wait to punish blocked poke lol... that's ridiculous, you cannot get in easily on zangief already and even pokes would be unsafe unlike as compared to zangief having ryu's super. nobody uses focus attacks on zangief anyway so ryu's super would also be much more limited. spd is 2 frames, but i believed they nerf the range in ultra which meant pokes that cannot be punished by spd would be punished by chunli's super.

Just zone him out. He can't be zoned out across the screen with super fireball.

Feb 2, 2015 23:30:23 GMT -5 doomfanatiq said:

there is a window for teching the throws when seeing your char been thrown. in older kof, throws can be tech on reaction by pressing C/D, regardless of which direction your opponents attempt the throw. 

however in kof13, they changed it to, you can only tech a C throw with C, and a D throw with D, so even if you are able to tech it on reaction, you need to guess which direction your opponent is throwing you. if i'm not wrong, they also decrease the amount of frames to tech the throw when seeing the animation of been thrown. so throws are still tech able on kof13, just harder and becomes a form of 50/50 guessing on directional input.

No you can still tech either way and you have ~ 3 frames to do it, believe me you can't tech on reaction, it's just too fast. Gouken's throw can almost be done on reaction but the throws have different timings which is annoying.

Feb 2, 2015 23:30:23 GMT -5 doomfanatiq said:

ermm, blockable supers/neomax are normally punished by rolling forward lol, but you are essentially correct that if you blocked the neomax, it is unpunishable for most of the chars unlike sf chunli. so ryu's super is safer in this situation when opponents block it. but honestly, how many super mistake have u seen by pros in high level play for ryu/chunli? i honestly never seen daigo mis use his super except when directional shortcut from cr mk > fb become super, which would never happen in chunli's case. 

The supers I listed punish rolls and even whiffed normals. Look at Mai's, she covers the entire screen and she can just zone you until you move and get killed. You don't have to have an unblockable move for it to hit often.

Feb 2, 2015 23:30:23 GMT -5 doomfanatiq said:

wiki.shoryuken.com/The_King_of_Fighters_XIII/Benimaru

air version, recovery frame 15
ground version, recovery frame 14 or 18 A/C

Most Standing C/D are far pokes and have start up of 5-10 depending on far or close, so there is enough time to punish with poke > HD after whiffed lightning fist after recovery roll.

Dreamcancel is more up to date:
dreamcancel.com/wiki/index.php?title=Benimaru_Nikaido_(XIII)
A Raijin Ken: 19f startup, -3 on block (hard to punish at that range).
C Raijin Ken: 14f startup, -7 on block (easier to punish but still hard at that range).
Air Raijen Ken: 13f startup, *+6* if done low to the ground (like they are in infinite).
That's why they're hard to punish, air specials are usually very safe.

Feb 2, 2015 23:30:23 GMT -5 doomfanatiq said:

i see i see, it's the opportunity cost of fadc combos when using demon then that you have issues with.  mine are
1) slow start up of cr mk 7 frames and block-able.
2) st mp fast 4 frame, but situational and limited due to short range poke.
3) lower guarantee of conversion rate, kara demon is not 100% either, but it at least offer higher guarantee rates of 96% (for now) than cr mk/st mp (?%) 
i'm not considering cl hp and cr hp because daigo doesn't use meters for fadc combos when landing those through jump ins, or focus attacks. maybe because of the scaling, and the damage is high enough without meters.

Cl hp and cr hp lead to a ton more damage (452 and 442) but they are reserved for frame traps and punishes which are a great option if your opponent turtles and expects a throw. You also do 82 more damage and build a bar back with massive corner carry.
No cost gamble either, also 96% is extremely high given the limited sample size of seeing the movement done, I'd wait until there's more footage of it being done often.

Feb 2, 2015 23:30:23 GMT -5 doomfanatiq said:

i thought u meant grabbing during the rolling animation of quick recovery lol... my point was that, you have to be prepared for benimaru players to drop the combos because it's not easy landing the infinite, same as ex lori loop. 

Beni's is easier than Iori's and even if he didn't trust his ability to land it you can still finish early for huge damage. Also I meant that you could be grabbed if you quick recover.
Also air Raijin Ken is stupid safe lol.

Feb 2, 2015 23:30:23 GMT -5 doomfanatiq said:

well i am very curious about the stats after seeing the sako interview saying that daigo is a master at zoning with fireballs. because we have no stats to compare to, so it's more on the assumption instead. the only fact we have is that daigo zone better with kara demon than sako haha
ya it's accurate to say daigo would still be able to land them, maybe not as often when his opponents adapt, but i am positive he would still be going for them if fadc doesn't work, it's just the next best alternative thing to do with meters when cr mk fail on paper haha

Yea they can zone really well which is all about controlling your opponent.
Sako doesn't really use Kara demon, he goes for large combos more which pays off well for him. Much more reward at less cost. Both have great fundamentals.

[doomfanatiq]

No, focus attacks, and good reads on fierce attacks are sufficient. Remember Daigo blowing through Dhalsim?

Most supers do under 400 damage, and 300 is a lot for the amount of versatility it has and for what it can do. Demon is far more limited use and Evil Ryu has much more damage using much less meter (which is my point).

true that, that punish by daigo on dhalsim's limps was hype and godlike lol.

i agree ryu's super is much more versatile for less damage which was why it's one of the best super in my opinion (best for you though haha), demon and chunli's super are less versatile though but since i value the ability to open up opponents higher than versatility, eryu and chunli's super are more threatening in my opinion.

we have already listed all the advantages and disadvantages of those 3 supers, not much more that can be done so we simply disagree on this front 

That depends on the match, but not having a blockstring isn't necessarily bad as you can bait the opponent and punish them because of how fast and good that cr mk is. Evil Ryu needs meter more to make up for his slower pokes. He pretty much has to use it or else he has to work much harder

it's the same theory of making the best out of it, for example people were quick to complain about eryu ex fb not been on knockdown but in actual fact because of that ability he was able to land 500 fadc combo into ultra with ex fb, while ryu's was only 300. 

the good about it been untrue blockstring is the added layer of mind games to bait, the bad is that it's harder to increase meters since you cannot just do cr mk > fb anytime you like like eryu, and you have to spend meters on ex fb to blow through focus dash through techs as daigo mentioned depending on char's dash or bd. 

honestly i have the same opinion as daigo on this topic though, that ryu's cr mk > fb should be a true block string haha. and it's not like it would be op because his cr mk > fb fadc combos are not huge damage anyway because at max distance you can only land a sweep after fadc.

Just zone him out. He can't be zoned out across the screen with super fireball.

no problem with shotos zoning him out with fb, but have you thought about how many chars are without fb lol? imagine starting round 3 zangief with full meters and any pokes would be punished by chunli super lol. and even fb on block can be punish by zangief with chunli super unlike ryu's super lol. basically with chunli's super, zangief would become a ridiculous defensive wall that cannot be penetrated until he used up the super lol. while you can still poke zangief actively if he had ryu's super for chars without fb.

i need to test on ryu's super punishing fb on block though, because it's -6, but since the distance covered by the super is not instant, it may not be able to punish cr mk > fb on block unless in corner.

No you can still tech either way and you have ~ 3 frames to do it, believe me you can't tech on reaction, it's just too fast. Gouken's throw can almost be done on reaction but the throws have different timings which is annoying

wiki.shoryuken.com/The_King_of_Fighters_XIII/Systems/Attacking:_Throws_Throwteching

there is a 10-16 frame window for teching the throw animation. it's much better than sf where there's 0 frame window for tech ing the throw after seeing yourself been grabbed lol...

The supers I listed punish rolls and even whiffed normals. Look at Mai's, she covers the entire screen and she can just zone you until you move and get killed. You don't have to have an unblockable move for it to hit often

i meant those that are fast and blockable like kyo and beimaru, they can be punished by rolling forward. those that punished rolls are unblockables or grabs in close range. mai is unique because her neomax comes out so fast and freeze screen which was why it can punish special moves with slow recovery or after roll recovery when avoiding her fb.

Dreamcancel is more up to date:

dreamcancel.com/wiki/index.php?title=Benimaru_Nikaido_(XIII)

A Raijin Ken: 19f startup, -3 on block (hard to punish at that range).

C Raijin Ken: 14f startup, -7 on block (easier to punish but still hard at that range).

Air Raijen Ken: 13f startup, *+6* if done low to the ground (like they are in infinite).

That's why they're hard to punish, air specials are usually very safe

It's safe on block, what i need to test is when it whiff in the loop combos in 2 situations, ground/air fb whiff, and opponents quick recover, are the active frames still there for the opponents to block, if not then benimaru is very punishable lol. 

Cl hp and cr hp lead to a ton more damage (452 and 442) but they are reserved for frame traps and punishes which are a great option if your opponent turtles and expects a throw. You also do 82 more damage and build a bar back with massive corner carry.

No cost gamble either, also 96% is extremely high given the limited sample size of seeing the movement done, I'd wait until there's more footage of it being done often

this should be matter of preference since i noticed daigo doesn't extend the combos with 2 meters from cl hp/cr hp. 

actually even if you go compare the success rate of sako's super demon, or infiltration's super demon, i am very positive it will not fall below 90% success rate. i haven't seen any videos where super demon whiff and cost them the match, maybe it's because they go for it less often unlike daigo, which was my point originally because  daigo landed so many demons and yet possess the high 96% success rate for master series.

Beni's is easier than Iori's and even if he didn't trust his ability to land it you can still finish early for huge damage. Also I meant that you could be grabbed if you quick recover.

Also air Raijin Ken is stupid safe lol.

i agree also benimaru's loop is easier also haha. air fb is safe on block, not on whiff, there are neomax or supers that can punish whiff air fb in neutral game depending on chars though.

Yea they can zone really well which is all about controlling your opponent.

Sako doesn't really use Kara demon, he goes for large combos more which pays off well for him. Much more reward at less cost. Both have great fundamentals

sako is more dependent on setups and extended combos to kill his opponents while daigo is more on fb zoning and kara demons. those are the only noticeable differences between them in my opinion

[doomfanatiq]

btw the skins are awesome,  

too bad i cannot use the kof one though cause it was too sensual to browse during workng time lol

[The Big Daddy C-Master]

Feb 3, 2015 22:34:08 GMT -5 doomfanatiq said:

btw the skins are awesome,  

too bad i cannot use the kof one though cause it was too sensual to browse during workng time lol

Hehe the buttons or the skin itself?

Just use that one when you're at home. You'll notice it running faster soon as I fix them up. Glad you like them as I put a lot of time into them.

[The Big Daddy C-Master]

Feb 3, 2015 21:44:58 GMT -5 doomfanatiq said:

true that, that punish by daigo on dhalsim's limps was hype and godlike lol.

i agree ryu's super is much more versatile for less damage which was why it's one of the best super in my opinion (best for you though haha), demon and chunli's super are less versatile though but since i value the ability to open up opponents higher than versatility, eryu and chunli's super are more threatening in my opinion.

we have already listed all the advantages and disadvantages of those 3 supers, not much more that can be done so we simply disagree on this front 

I think it's one of the best, along with Chun's, Yun's, etc. Top notch for sure, Genei Jin might be the best all around though, not sure.

Feb 3, 2015 21:44:58 GMT -5 doomfanatiq said:

it's the same theory of making the best out of it, for example people were quick to complain about eryu ex fb not been on knockdown but in actual fact because of that ability he was able to land 500 fadc combo into ultra with ex fb, while ryu's was only 300. 

the good about it been untrue blockstring is the added layer of mind games to bait, the bad is that it's harder to increase meters since you cannot just do cr mk > fb anytime you like like eryu, and you have to spend meters on ex fb to blow through focus dash through techs as daigo mentioned depending on char's dash or bd. 

honestly i have the same opinion as daigo on this topic though, that ryu's cr mk > fb should be a true block string haha. and it's not like it would be op because his cr mk > fb fadc combos are not huge damage anyway because at max distance you can only land a sweep after fadc.

Well Evil Ryu's ex fireball isn't really a fireball in that sense but more of a combo tool, which is fine and all, just like you can trap people who go through the cr mk. If Ryu gets a full block string then Evil Ryu should get his cr mk reduced to 6f startup since Ryu has a faster and better cr mk all around. He still wouldn't be able to combo into it, but it wouldn't be so slow.

Feb 3, 2015 21:44:58 GMT -5 doomfanatiq said:

no problem with shotos zoning him out with fb, but have you thought about how many chars are without fb lol? imagine starting round 3 zangief with full meters and any pokes would be punished by chunli super lol. and even fb on block can be punish by zangief with chunli super unlike ryu's super lol. basically with chunli's super, zangief would become a ridiculous defensive wall that cannot be penetrated until he used up the super lol. while you can still poke zangief actively if he had ryu's super for chars without fb.

i need to test on ryu's super punishing fb on block though, because it's -6, but since the distance covered by the super is not instant, it may not be able to punish cr mk > fb on block unless in corner.

Zangief looses badly because Chun zones him out anyways, he'd just have a chance of landing a random dumb super. Zangief already punishes unsafe moves very well, don't see the gain as much as a fireball.

Feb 3, 2015 21:44:58 GMT -5 doomfanatiq said:

wiki.shoryuken.com/The_King_of_Fighters_XIII/Systems/Attacking:_Throws_Throwteching

there is a 10-16 frame window for teching the throw animation. it's much better than sf where there's 0 frame window for tech ing the throw after seeing yourself been grabbed lol...

I don't think that information is accurate because 16 frames would be enormous. I'll check dream cancel.
In SF you do have a few frames, I believe Gouken's is 7 frames and that's easier to tech (somewhat but the timing is different and you end up being grabbed anyways). Kof is also a much faster game with more to be aware of. Defending throws in SF is stupid because of crouch teching but 16 frame tech window is monstrous, pros get grabbed constantly (look at Woo vs Reynald). I see way more teching in SF4 by a large margin.

Feb 3, 2015 21:44:58 GMT -5 doomfanatiq said:

i meant those that are fast and blockable like kyo and beimaru, they can be punished by rolling forward. those that punished rolls are unblockables or grabs in close range. mai is unique because her neomax comes out so fast and freeze screen which was why it can punish special moves with slow recovery or after roll recovery when avoiding her fb.
It's safe on block, what i need to test is when it whiff in the loop combos in 2 situations, ground/air fb whiff, and opponents quick recover, are the active frames still there for the opponents to block, if not then benimaru is very punishable lol. 

Yes but those punish everything fast. Even if you did it and they rolled you'd be across the screen so it wouldn't matter. Mai's can be punished though as she's right in front of you. But if you use those Neomaxes smartly they're very strong on their own.

Feb 3, 2015 21:44:58 GMT -5 doomfanatiq said:

this should be matter of preference since i noticed daigo doesn't extend the combos with 2 meters from cl hp/cr hp. 

He doesn't seem to be a heavy punish player to the likes of Sako.

Feb 3, 2015 21:44:58 GMT -5 doomfanatiq said:

actually even if you go compare the success rate of sako's super demon, or infiltration's super demon, i am very positive it will not fall below 90% success rate. i haven't seen any videos where super demon whiff and cost them the match, maybe it's because they go for it less often unlike daigo, which was my point originally because  daigo landed so many demons and yet possess the high 96% success rate for master series.

They don't use it often outside of checkmate situations. Many players walked back and still got grabbed by that demon, which showed they just didn't know how to deal with it.

Feb 3, 2015 21:44:58 GMT -5 doomfanatiq said:

i agree also benimaru's loop is easier also haha. air fb is safe on block, not on whiff, there are neomax or supers that can punish whiff air fb in neutral game depending on chars though.

Well it recovers fast, which is why he can do the loop, he jumps right up again after the first one.

Feb 3, 2015 21:44:58 GMT -5 doomfanatiq said:

sako is more dependent on setups and extended combos to kill his opponents while daigo is more on fb zoning and kara demons. those are the only noticeable differences between them in my opinion

Yea though now setups are much weaker than before. This might be Diago's version (although his evo performance was shoddy) lol.

[doomfanatiq]

Well Evil Ryu's ex fireball isn't really a fireball in that sense but more of a combo tool, which is fine and all, just like you can trap people who go through the cr mk. If Ryu gets a full block string then Evil Ryu should get his cr mk reduced to 6f startup since Ryu has a faster and better cr mk all around. He still wouldn't be able to combo into it, but it wouldn't be so slow.

actually i think even if eryu ex fb was knockdown, eryu players wouldn't use it because they already have a true block string for cr mk> fb, and it's much better if they used it for fadc combos instead for more damage. unlike in ryu's case, where he had to spend meters after cr mk so that opponents doesn't exploit the weakness of cr mk > fb been a untrue blockstring by focus dashing through the hadoken on reaction.

i don't mind eryu getting a 5/6 frame cr mk as long as they reduce the range to be same as ryu/ken hahaha. speaking of which, ken got the fastest cr mk in the game 4 frame only, but i thought they really balance it well since ken's ability to combo from cr mk > fb fadc is much more limited than ryu/eryu.

Zangief looses badly because Chun zones him out anyways, he'd just have a chance of landing a random dumb super. Zangief already punishes unsafe moves very well, don't see the gain as much as a fireball.

this topic is beaten to death already and pointless because we basically disagree on whose super is better lol.

I don't think that information is accurate because 16 frames would be enormous. I'll check dream cancel.

In SF you do have a few frames, I believe Gouken's is 7 frames and that's easier to tech (somewhat but the timing is different and you end up being grabbed anyways). Kof is also a much faster game with more to be aware of. Defending throws in SF is stupid because of crouch teching but 16 frame tech window is monstrous, pros get grabbed constantly (look at Woo vs Reynald). I see way more teching in SF4 by a large margin.

i checked dream cancel, they only stated 'In general, normal throws can be broken by pressing C or D during a brief window of time after the throw has been started' 

well you can think of it in 2 ways

for sf it's easier because there is crouch tech but ultimately a read.

for kof it's easier because there is a window for teching on reaction 10-16 frames accordingly to SRK, brief in dream cancel (but no idea how many frames window)

in my opinion, it is definitely the hardest to tech throw in kof13 as compared to older kof where i had no problems teching throws on reaction and much easier to braindead crouch tech in sf in comparison. which leads me to believe they decrease the window frames for teching the throw in kof13. but honestly, throws still can be tech on reaction in kof13 as compared to sf where it's over once i see the animation of myself been thrown for me personally. 

Yes but those punish everything fast. Even if you did it and they rolled you'd be across the screen so it wouldn't matter. Mai's can be punished though as she's right in front of you. But if you use those Neomaxes smartly they're very strong on their own.

for kyo and benimaru neomax, it's a free punish everytime with roll forward unless they are full screen, but it's highly unlike they would be baited to use neomax at full screen except vs fb chars. because of the pace of the game, there are times where i anticipate and reacted wrongly to a opponent short jump or jabs with neomax lol and it's very costly  =(

neomax is very similar to ultra moves in sf where it's strong if you used it as anti air properly, or as a all or nothing move desperately on wake up for those with invincibility frames. 

He doesn't seem to be a heavy punish player to the likes of Sako

maybe he think it's unworthy of meters due to scaling damage, but that's the fun about fighting games, every char can be played differently. there's no fixed route as long as you win at the end of the day lol.

They don't use it often outside of checkmate situations. Many players walked back and still got grabbed by that demon, which showed they just didn't know how to deal with it.

i am pretty sure they were anticipating eryu's cr mk at the kara range demon lol, that's more likely than they didn't know how to deal with it, it's because they were unsure of 'when' to commit to a read of jumping away from kara demon. 


you can check out the part when xian got hit by kara demon, he was jumping back and neutral jumping to avoid kara demon range, but there's a time when u eventually have to commit to footsies and that's when daigo landed the kara demon on him lol.

Yea though now setups are much weaker than before. This might be Diago's version (although his evo performance was shoddy) lol

apart from his shabby performance at evo, i think there are also the factors of picking up eryu for only months, and that usf is actually very balance right now, even though eryu is top tier, it doesn't mean he dominate every char in the game since he was unchanged, it just meant that after the update, he 'seems' to be having more advantageous matchups than other top tier chars on paper haha.

if you look at the sets in canada series, many sets have very close scores, which meant that out of 2/3 sets in a evo tournament format, they would be able to beat daigo at a different day.

[The Big Daddy C-Master]

Feb 4, 2015 20:47:49 GMT -5 doomfanatiq said:

actually i think even if eryu ex fb was knockdown, eryu players wouldn't use it because they already have a true block string for cr mk> fb, and it's much better if they used it for fadc combos instead for more damage. unlike in ryu's case, where he had to spend meters after cr mk so that opponents doesn't exploit the weakness of cr mk > fb been a untrue blockstring by focus dashing through the hadoken on reaction.

i don't mind eryu getting a 5/6 frame cr mk as long as they reduce the range to be same as ryu/ken hahaha. speaking of which, ken got the fastest cr mk in the game 4 frame only, but i thought they really balance it well since ken's ability to combo from cr mk > fb fadc is much more limited than ryu/eryu.

Evil Ryu's fireball being knockdown would make it a better fireball but a worse combo tool. His red fireball is pretty crap.
Ryu's cr mk isn't weak right now, it's arguably the best in the game. Fast, great hitbox, strong active frames and recovery. It's better than Evil Ryu's in every way but the range. Giving him a blockstring on top of it is too much. He doesn't need it. Why should he get Evil Ryu's advantage when Evil Ryu can't get anything on his cr mk. 5 frames on Evil Ryu's cr mk would be too much. 6 would be fine if there was still a gap there. Ken's starts up in 4 frames but it's not as good as Ryu's. Best to leave it as is than do that.

Feb 4, 2015 20:47:49 GMT -5 doomfanatiq said:

this topic is beaten to death already and pointless because we basically disagree on whose super is better lol.

I'm arguing in comparison to Evil Ryu's super since you think Chun's is better and Ryu's is worse when Chun, Ryu, and Yun all have better "use anytime" supers while Evil Ryu's is more situational.

Feb 4, 2015 20:47:49 GMT -5 doomfanatiq said:

checked dream cancel, they only stated 'In general, normal throws can be broken by pressing C or D during a brief window of time after the throw has been started' 

well you can think of it in 2 ways

for sf it's easier because there is crouch tech but ultimately a read.

for kof it's easier because there is a window for teching on reaction 10-16 frames accordingly to SRK, brief in dream cancel (but no idea how many frames window)

in my opinion, it is definitely the hardest to tech throw in kof13 as compared to older kof where i had no problems teching throws on reaction and much easier to braindead crouch tech in sf in comparison. which leads me to believe they decrease the window frames for teching the throw in kof13. but honestly, throws still can be tech on reaction in kof13 as compared to sf where it's over once i see the animation of myself been thrown for me personally. 

16 frames is just way too long. That's pushing Blazblue throws where the exclamation point comes out, I'm positive it isn't that.
On top of that throws in Kof are instant startup, whereas they're 3 frames in SF which also makes them deadly. Even if there is a larger tech window it isn't by that much. Not to mention in Kof you have way more to look out for. I've never "seen myself being thrown", it's instant so when I'm thrown I'm thrown. Reaction teching makes throws useless, and you can see people be thrown multiple times in a row, hell I've even done it myself. Throwing people in SF is harder to do because crouch tech greatly diminishes mixups.

Feb 4, 2015 20:47:49 GMT -5 doomfanatiq said:

for kyo and benimaru neomax, it's a free punish everytime with roll forward unless they are full screen, but it's highly unlike they would be baited to use neomax at full screen except vs fb chars. because of the pace of the game, there are times where i anticipate and reacted wrongly to a opponent short jump or jabs with neomax lol and it's very costly  =(
neomax is very similar to ultra moves in sf where it's strong if you used it as anti air properly, or as a all or nothing move desperately on wake up for those with invincibility frames. 

Where else would you be using their neomax other than full screen? You can punish their hops, jumps, and rolls with it. I've never seen them use neomax up close outside of combos.
It's similar maybe in power to an ultra, but not in the way the meter is gained. It's more similar to super there.

Feb 4, 2015 20:47:49 GMT -5 doomfanatiq said:

maybe he think it's unworthy of meters due to scaling damage, but that's the fun about fighting games, every char can be played differently. there's no fixed route as long as you win at the end of the day lol.

But if doing 452 damage and 600 stun for 2 meters and getting one meter back is a bad investment why spend 4 to do 370 damage and no stun? Maybe he just doesn't like combos with 3 one frame links in them.

Feb 4, 2015 20:47:49 GMT -5 doomfanatiq said:

i am pretty sure they were anticipating eryu's cr mk at the kara range demon lol, that's more likely than they didn't know how to deal with it, it's because they were unsure of 'when' to commit to a read of jumping away from kara demon. 
you can check out the part when xian got hit by kara demon, he was jumping back and neutral jumping to avoid kara demon range, but there's a time when u eventually have to commit to footsies and that's when daigo landed the kara demon on him lol.

Most likely because many of them walked back after the flash which m eans they could have escaped.
Better to eat the 370 than the 400 and 600 stun and get pushed to the corner I guess.

Feb 4, 2015 20:47:49 GMT -5 doomfanatiq said:

apart from his shabby performance at evo, i think there are also the factors of picking up eryu for only months, and that usf is actually very balance right now, even though eryu is top tier, it doesn't mean he dominate every char in the game since he was unchanged, it just meant that after the update, he 'seems' to be having more advantageous matchups than other top tier chars on paper haha.
if you look at the sets in canada series, many sets have very close scores, which meant that out of 2/3 sets in a evo tournament format, they would be able to beat daigo at a different day.

Well it had more to do with the game being new, and Evil Ryu just being overrated. He even lost to his own main character because he lost the neutral game. If Evil Ryu is top tier now he would have been better off than in AE2012 where he was mid tier. I'm still not getting how Evil Ryu and Ryu are the two least changed characters (Ryu has better buffs now by far) and yet somehow Evil Ryu magically went top tier and Ryu went bottom tier when Evil Ryu lost his unblockable setups against the cast which were cheaper than legit safe jumps. Nobody ever says anything other than "Evil Ryu top tier!" This game is still newer to give a full judgment tier wise especially since they did yet another adjustment when the game was barely out 6 months.

Honestly top tier in SF4 is like mid tier in other games. The characters in this game just go from decent to weak instead of being legitimately strong.

[doomfanatiq]

shadowloo was a blast did you watch it ? momochi dominated the tournament lol, only eita came very close to beating him, and gackt did very well placing 3rd for my country and dominated sako hahaha, sako was absolutely mind blown by gackt's play lol

[doomfanatiq]

Evil Ryu's fireball being knockdown would make it a better fireball but a worse combo tool. His red fireball is pretty crap.

Ryu's cr mk isn't weak right now, it's arguably the best in the game. Fast, great hitbox, strong active frames and recovery. It's better than Evil Ryu's in every way but the range. Giving him a blockstring on top of it is too much. He doesn't need it. Why should he get Evil Ryu's advantage when Evil Ryu can't get anything on his cr mk. 5 frames on Evil Ryu's cr mk would be too much. 6 would be fine if there was still a gap there. Ken's starts up in 4 frames but it's not as good as Ryu's. Best to leave it as is than do that.

that's the pros and cons for fb on knockdown lol. both have their strengths and it depends on which one we would value higher and that's strictly opinions.

i agree eryu red fireballs is quite crappy, but it does have it's uses in blowing up focus attempts for example the sako vs gackt match, used very well by sako to blow up gackt's fa attempts.

i never said ryu's cr mk is weak, just that ryu needed some buffs to compensate for his weaken state because of dwu. and that cr mk > fb true blockstring could potentially be one of the buff that ryu need, which was why i agreed with daigo that ryu should have true blockstring for that. anyway the potential ryu buffs is off topic we should leave it for discussion for another time like listing our opinions of complete buffs/nerfs for yours and my main ryu sagat viper haha.

I'm arguing in comparison to Evil Ryu's super since you think Chun's is better and Ryu's is worse when Chun, Ryu, and Yun all have better "use anytime" supers while Evil Ryu's is more situational.

hrmm i thought i have listed why chun's is better ? just repeating in case u missed it, i value the ability to open up opponents higher than ryu's flexible uses, chunli is a blockable super used in opening up opponent after a blocked poke, while eryu is a unblockable to break opponent's defense when they are not making any mistakes. 

16 frames is just way too long. That's pushing Blazblue throws where the exclamation point comes out, I'm positive it isn't that.

On top of that throws in Kof are instant startup, whereas they're 3 frames in SF which also makes them deadly. Even if there is a larger tech window it isn't by that much. Not to mention in Kof you have way more to look out for. I've never "seen myself being thrown", it's instant so when I'm thrown I'm thrown. Reaction teching makes throws useless, and you can see people be thrown multiple times in a row, hell I've even done it myself. Throwing people in SF is harder to do because crouch tech greatly diminishes mixups

honestly that's just the frame data, maybe they are wrong in calculation and i already told you i suspected that they reduced the window for teching throw in kof13 because in my personal exp, i have a much harder time teching throw on reaction in kof13 as compared to older kof games. 

as for sf, throws work differently because there is no window for teching the throw after animation started, however, there is crouch tech, which is ultimately is a read as compared to kof13. please note i'm not arguing on which throws are easier in either game, just that there's 2 ways to think about why it's easier lol.

Where else would you be using their neomax other than full screen? You can punish their hops, jumps, and rolls with it. I've never seen them use neomax up close outside of combos.

It's similar maybe in power to an ultra, but not in the way the meter is gained. It's more similar to super there

because of the ability to anti air, you can use it anywhere, you cannot get that damage through other anti airs in kof13 unless you are mr karate lol. 

But if doing 452 damage and 600 stun for 2 meters and getting one meter back is a bad investment why spend 4 to do 370 damage and no stun? Maybe he just doesn't like combos with 3 one frame links in them

eryu can get close to 300-400 damage without any meters from landing a jump in, there is no point in extending it to 450-500 with 2 meters. the meters are much better off been use on cr mk fadc combos and kara demon. 

one good example of meter management is sako vs momochi match in shadowloo, i remember sako landed a jump in and he expanded his meters to style on momochi, which is a bad choice when momochi comeback with ken's offensive measures and sako had no answer, if he hasn't used the meters, dp fadc would be a threat and maybe momochi wouldn't have been able to comeback. i need to rewatch the video though and will link you with the exact time frames.

Most likely because many of them walked back after the flash which m eans they could have escaped.

Better to eat the 370 than the 400 and 600 stun and get pushed to the corner I guess

i really don't understand your reference here, u mean they should be walking back and risk getting crouch mk by eryu instead so as to avoid kara demon? walking back is good to avoid kara demon, but there's a certain range where you need to crouch because eryu forward walkspeed is not a joke, top 5 or top 10 in sf if i remember correctly.

Well it had more to do with the game being new, and Evil Ryu just being overrated. He even lost to his own main character because he lost the neutral game. If Evil Ryu is top tier now he would have been better off than in AE2012 where he was mid tier. I'm still not getting how Evil Ryu and Ryu are the two least changed characters (Ryu has better buffs now by far) and yet somehow Evil Ryu magically went top tier and Ryu went bottom tier when Evil Ryu lost his unblockable setups against the cast which were cheaper than legit safe jumps. Nobody ever says anything other than "Evil Ryu top tier!" This game is still newer to give a full judgment tier wise especially since they did yet another adjustment when the game was barely out 6 months.



Honestly top tier in SF4 is like mid tier in other games. The characters in this game just go from decent to weak instead of being legitimately strong

eryu is only overrated by scrubs, most pros would know he is top tier, but unsure of how much better he is as compared to the rest of the casts which they can only speculate. he is better in ae2012 because of UB, just that during that version vortex was a much greater threat than eryu's damage.

the thing about ryu is, his 3 main strength lies in whiff punishing with sweep and safe jump pressure tool after it for potential damage and adding OS. he lost his auto pilot safe jump set up as his only pressure tool because of dwu, OS became much more risky and the rewards is not even justified. just imagine doing a OS dp and it whiff due to dwu, and opponents punish with ultra or whatever combos you insert.

unblockables and fake crossups are far more situational because most of it only happens in corner and eryu had to expand 2 meters ending with axe kick to do it. sweep does little damage for ryu, but it is fast and is a hard knockdown. his potential damage from landing sweep is gone due to dwu and it's much more serious than just losing corner unblockables and fake crossups setups with 2 meters. add to that his cr mk >fb is not a true blockstring, so basically he had very limited firepower as daigo put it in his interview. that was one of the main reason he jumped to eryu, because ryu's firepower is limited.

i don't know how you could fail to see this lol, are you only overrating the loss of ub for eryu due to dwu and yet at the same time, underestimating the impacts dwu had on ryu ? cannot blame u though maybe because you never watched and analysed daigo's ryu since you main viper haha. basically, for ryu, OS, safe jump pressure and whiff punishing with sweep is essential to win at high level.

it's much harder to win with sagat/ryu than eryu since ultra dropped from my personal experience.
anyway regardless of what capcom did right or wrong, ultra is the most balanced version to date in my opinion, and i have no issues with eryu because even though he had strong tools and is one of the many top tier char, most matches against eryu are winnable in my opinion and eryu had nothing that is straight up BS such as vortex. 

[The Big Daddy C-Master]

Feb 8, 2015 20:59:49 GMT -5 doomfanatiq said:

shadowloo was a blast did you watch it ? momochi dominated the tournament lol, only eita came very close to beating him, and gackt did very well placing 3rd for my country and dominated sako hahaha, sako was absolutely mind blown by gackt's play lol

Nope, I'll have to catch the replays. Sounds like fun though.

[doomfanatiq]

Nope, I'll have to catch the replays. Sounds like fun though.

haha you should when u have the time, poongko vs eita should be first on your list and it was absolute hype. 

[The Big Daddy C-Master]

Feb 9, 2015 0:35:15 GMT -5 doomfanatiq said:

Nope, I'll have to catch the replays. Sounds like fun though.

haha you should when u have the time, poongko vs eita should be first on your list and it was absolute hype. 

Definitely will do. I've read something on it, but I haven't seen it.

[The Big Daddy C-Master]

Feb 8, 2015 22:40:01 GMT -5 doomfanatiq said:

that's the pros and cons for fb on knockdown lol. both have their strengths and it depends on which one we would value higher and that's strictly opinions.

i agree eryu red fireballs is quite crappy, but it does have it's uses in blowing up focus attempts for example the sako vs gackt match, used very well by sako to blow up gackt's fa attempts.

i never said ryu's cr mk is weak, just that ryu needed some buffs to compensate for his weaken state because of dwu. and that cr mk > fb true blockstring could potentially be one of the buff that ryu need, which was why i agreed with daigo that ryu should have true blockstring for that. anyway the potential ryu buffs is off topic we should leave it for discussion for another time like listing our opinions of complete buffs/nerfs for yours and my main ryu sagat viper haha.

Evil Ryu didn't really get compensated for how DWU affected his game though, that's my point. He already got a stronger cr mk -> fireball and he has a stronger fireball game too. He's far from bad. Plus his cr mk fireball can trap focus happy people.

Feb 8, 2015 22:40:01 GMT -5 doomfanatiq said:

hrmm i thought i have listed why chun's is better ? just repeating in case u missed it, i value the ability to open up opponents higher than ryu's flexible uses, chunli is a blockable super used in opening up opponent after a blocked poke, while eryu is a unblockable to break opponent's defense when they are not making any mistakes. 

What I'm saying id you're saying Evil Ryu's is better than Ryu's when honestly his is very close than Chun Li's and arguably better. Since when did Ryu have a hard time opening people up with a 3 frame super that combos off of everything.

Feb 8, 2015 22:40:01 GMT -5 doomfanatiq said:

honestly that's just the frame data, maybe they are wrong in calculation and i already told you i suspected that they reduced the window for teching throw in kof13 because in my personal exp, i have a much harder time teching throw on reaction in kof13 as compared to older kof games. 

as for sf, throws work differently because there is no window for teching the throw after animation started, however, there is crouch tech, which is ultimately is a read as compared to kof13. please note i'm not arguing on which throws are easier in either game, just that there's 2 ways to think about why it's easier lol.

Well my overall point was that it's easier to grab more often in Kof XIII even regardless of stats because of the extra options to pressure the opponent. Honestly there's a lot of block stun in Kof when it comes to throwing but all of your pressure options make it so they have to look out for so much more than in SF. Plus one poke=death due to hd.

Feb 8, 2015 22:40:01 GMT -5 doomfanatiq said:

because of the ability to anti air, you can use it anywhere, you cannot get that damage through other anti airs in kof13 unless you are mr karate lol. 

What I mean is that you do it from far away, not in their face lol.

You can combo from other dp's. Karate's is just so easy and braindead.

Feb 8, 2015 22:40:01 GMT -5 doomfanatiq said:

eryu can get close to 300-400 damage without any meters from landing a jump in, there is no point in extending it to 450-500 with 2 meters. the meters are much better off been use on cr mk fadc combos and kara demon. 

Here's where we part company.
He gets a lot more damage off of a full punish with 2 bars than other characters and his damage approaches an ultra, so if you have the opportunity and the execution why wouldn't you do 450-500 damage for 2 bars and get one bar back while doing 600-700 stun at the same time. I mean there' s no reason not to. Of course you'll be using it for FADC since you're going to be mid screen more than up close, but it's obviously a tremendously better damage per cost investment than demon in the situations where you hit it.

Feb 8, 2015 22:40:01 GMT -5 doomfanatiq said:

one good example of meter management is sako vs momochi match in shadowloo, i remember sako landed a jump in and he expanded his meters to style on momochi, which is a bad choice when momochi comeback with ken's offensive measures and sako had no answer, if he hasn't used the meters, dp fadc would be a threat and maybe momochi wouldn't have been able to comeback. i need to rewatch the video though and will link you with the exact time frames.

Haven't seen it yet, so I can't comment on this. Sako doesn't seem to be as sharp with Evil Ryu last I checked.

Feb 8, 2015 22:40:01 GMT -5 doomfanatiq said:

i really don't understand your reference here, u mean they should be walking back and risk getting crouch mk by eryu instead so as to avoid kara demon? walking back is good to avoid kara demon, but there's a certain range where you need to crouch because eryu forward walkspeed is not a joke, top 5 or top 10 in sf if i remember correctly.

No I mean some of them walked back after the super flash when they should have jumped.

Feb 8, 2015 22:40:01 GMT -5 doomfanatiq said:

eryu is only overrated by scrubs, most pros would know he is top tier, but unsure of how much better he is as compared to the rest of the casts which they can only speculate. he is better in ae2012 because of UB, just that during that version vortex was a much greater threat than eryu's damage.

the thing about ryu is, his 3 main strength lies in whiff punishing with sweep and safe jump pressure tool after it for potential damage and adding OS. he lost his auto pilot safe jump set up as his only pressure tool because of dwu, OS became much more risky and the rewards is not even justified. just imagine doing a OS dp and it whiff due to dwu, and opponents punish with ultra or whatever combos you insert.

unblockables and fake crossups are far more situational because most of it only happens in corner and eryu had to expand 2 meters ending with axe kick to do it. sweep does little damage for ryu, but it is fast and is a hard knockdown. his potential damage from landing sweep is gone due to dwu and it's much more serious than just losing corner unblockables and fake crossups setups with 2 meters. add to that his cr mk >fb is not a true blockstring, so basically he had very limited firepower as daigo put it in his interview. that was one of the main reason he jumped to eryu, because ryu's firepower is limited.

i don't know how you could fail to see this lol, are you only overrating the loss of ub for eryu due to dwu and yet at the same time, underestimating the impacts dwu had on ryu ? cannot blame u though maybe because you never watched and analysed daigo's ryu since you main viper haha. basically, for ryu, OS, safe jump pressure and whiff punishing with sweep is essential to win at high level.

it's much harder to win with sagat/ryu than eryu since ultra dropped from my personal experience.
anyway regardless of what capcom did right or wrong, ultra is the most balanced version to date in my opinion, and i have no issues with eryu because even though he had strong tools and is one of the many top tier char, most matches against eryu are winnable in my opinion and eryu had nothing that is straight up BS such as vortex. 

He's hyped up by scrubs because many of the pros hyped him up first. Mainly because of a pointless health buff that he doesn't have anymore. It's all speculation really.
Yes he has unblockables and vortex was better, but again, only a handful of characters in the cast had that sort of advantage that gave him any trouble: Ibuki, Akuma, and Seth (Viper and Cammy still play mostly the same) so not enough characters lost that advantage to bump him from mid tier then (below Ryu and around Juri/Ken level) to top tier when he got no real buffs and pretty much the entire cast got buffed even the ones who lost vortex. 90% of Evil Ryu's matchups did not involve vortexes anyways and those characters have strong mid range tools all the same. Every character lost knockdown pressure because of DWU not just Ryu and vortex characters, and believe me unblockables were simply cheap and far more powerful than safe jump setups especially with his damage output. Do you remember the nightmare that was Cammy?

Many of his setups involved a whiffed heavy axe kick which they actually "nerfed" by making it start up faster so he couldn't run those setups. Watch the vids they are sick.

Even on top of that Ryu is still a far more solid character and has much better tools than most of the cast, just like many other shotos. He even has many things better than Evil Ryu. He got more ways to combo into ultra like Evil Ryu, a safer cr mk fireball, and better fireball pressure. He has stronger zoning, normals, and a stronger dp, with an insane super. Akuma even has a better fireball game than Evil Ryu. What about Ken? Is he considered weak too?
I mean I just don't buy it. Ultra might be the most balanced though, but that's because they keep weakening the characters.
Evil Ryu didn't need his unblockables to be good (they were cheap) but the unblockables were simply far more powerful than basic safejump setups. Guess wrong and then lose a round? Pretty insane.

Btw. Who do you consider top tier right now?

[doomfanatiq]

Evil Ryu didn't really get compensated for how DWU affected his game though, that's my point. He already got a stronger cr mk -> fireball and he has a stronger fireball game too. He's far from bad. Plus his cr mk fireball can trap focus happy people.

i agree eryu never got compensated for how dwu affected his game, but honestly eryu is less reliant on UB/fake crossups than for example akuma on vortex, and ryu on OS safe jumps. that's my point. further explaination as below in the last point on the messy topic 

What I'm saying id you're saying Evil Ryu's is better than Ryu's when honestly his is very close than Chun Li's and arguably better. Since when did Ryu have a hard time opening people up with a 3 frame super that combos off of everything

it's because i value the ability to open up opponents higher than the ability to combo off everything, taking everything into consideration, the uses, the damage, the speed of the 3 supers, though i respect your opinion that ryu have more flexible uses which is why u thought his is better. this debate is done because we cannot convince each other on why which super is the best since all 3 of them are unique.

Well my overall point was that it's easier to grab more often in Kof XIII even regardless of stats because of the extra options to pressure the opponent. Honestly there's a lot of block stun in Kof when it comes to throwing but all of your pressure options make it so they have to look out for so much more than in SF. Plus one poke=death due to hd.

that's just one way of putting it, not forgetting that throw range in sf have a longer range than kof also. it's hard to compare honestly unless somebody compile the success rate of throws in kof13 and sf. the throw system basically is too different to pinpoint which throws are easier, the 2 examples are the 2 possible different viewpoints. and i'm not going to debate which is better since for me both are hard

From my personal experience, i thought throws was ridiculous when i first started sf4 because it cannot be tech on reaction, i get thrown to death alot learning the game ... it was only until much later after learning crouch tech that i thought throws are more balance in sf. 

What I mean is that you do it from far away, not in their face lol.



You can combo from other dp's. Karate's is just so easy and braindead.

hahaha i certainly didn't mean in their face either, basically a poke's length to full screen u can use it like seth ultra lol. ya, that's 1 of the reason karate is top tier lol

Here's where we part company.

He gets a lot more damage off of a full punish with 2 bars than other characters and his damage approaches an ultra, so if you have the opportunity and the execution why wouldn't you do 450-500 damage for 2 bars and get one bar back while doing 600-700 stun at the same time. I mean there' s no reason not to. Of course you'll be using it for FADC since you're going to be mid screen more than up close, but it's obviously a tremendously better damage per cost investment than demon in the situations where you hit it.

at 4:50, when momochi whiffed the dp, sako did max damage combo using 2 meters, after which he was left with no meters to deter momochi from his offensive maneuver and got stunt, losing both the meters and the round. that was a very good example of poor meter management because sako like to style on his opponents.

sako could have gotten super if he did a normal combos 300-350 dmg after the dp whiff, which would result in limiting of momochi's movement more as eryu with full meters are even more threatening.

honestly, i don't think daigo would have risked the 2 meters for that hard combo just to style on his opponents, because of the damage scaling. 

i certainly respect your opinion that you should deal full damage anytime anywhere, but think of it this way for example gen, xian would most likely have gone for a normal damage combo to gain full super meters instead of fadc combos for gen so that opponents would be more limited in their options psychologically. sometimes, there's always a grey area in which things could have gone either way and you would reconsider the situations and options and i thought that was the defining moment in sako's match vs momochi.

No I mean some of them walked back after the super flash when they should have jumped.

can you link the video? because i am positive they cannot walk back or jump because of the 4 pre-frames in jumping, after super activated, there is only 1 frame for you to run, which makes it impossible to jump after the flash. that is the theory of frame data. the only possible scenario where it is possible to jump or walk back is, the super was activated beyond the throw range demon offers, so it takes more than 1 frame to reach his opponents which result in the walkback, or jump. and i have already mentioned in the previous example with dummy in training mode, demon throw range have more range than a normal eryu throw, which could have misled you into thinking they could have jumped or walk back.

He's hyped up by scrubs because many of the pros hyped him up first. Mainly because of a pointless health buff that he doesn't have anymore. It's all speculation really.

Yes he has unblockables and vortex was better, but again, only a handful of characters in the cast had that sort of advantage that gave him any trouble: Ibuki, Akuma, and Seth (Viper and Cammy still play mostly the same) so not enough characters lost that advantage to bump him from mid tier then (below Ryu and around Juri/Ken level) to top tier when he got no real buffs and pretty much the entire cast got buffed even the ones who lost vortex. 90% of Evil Ryu's matchups did not involve vortexes anyways and those characters have strong mid range tools all the same. Every character lost knockdown pressure because of DWU not just Ryu and vortex characters, and believe me unblockables were simply cheap and far more powerful than safe jump setups especially with his damage output. Do you remember the nightmare that was Cammy?



Many of his setups involved a whiffed heavy axe kick which they actually "nerfed" by making it start up faster so he couldn't run those setups. Watch the vids they are sick.



Even on top of that Ryu is still a far more solid character and has much better tools than most of the cast, just like many other shotos. He even has many things better than Evil Ryu. He got more ways to combo into ultra like Evil Ryu, a safer cr mk fireball, and better fireball pressure. He has stronger zoning, normals, and a stronger dp, with an insane super. Akuma even has a better fireball game than Evil Ryu. What about Ken? Is he considered weak too?

I mean I just don't buy it. Ultra might be the most balanced though, but that's because they keep weakening the characters.

Evil Ryu didn't need his unblockables to be good (they were cheap) but the unblockables were simply far more powerful than basic safejump setups. Guess wrong and then lose a round? Pretty insane.



Btw. Who do you consider top tier right now?

i agree, because many people who just started the game would blindly follow pros' opinions, or some haters who just hate eryu overrate him haha, which is why i tend to ignore those comments in EH saying straight up BS such as, op this or that, unless they offer logical explainations and there's room for debate like yours haha and it's the char that i play.

this is a long topic there's so many points and it's going to get messy lol... u know ryu got some insignificant buffs prior to 1.04 right, alot of the casts had either insignificant buffs, or that there were buffs and nerfs at the same time like guile and deejay. those were part of the reasons why eryu became top tier even though he remained unchanged, for example, ibuki was top 10 in ae2012, and the top tiers above her got nerf and it made sense she became stronger now. something like that, so if eryu was mid tier in ae2012 hovering around 10-20 spots, eryu should be top 10 now because top 3 got nerf hard. i cannot comment on the rest of the top tiers because our opinions would be different other than the obvious top 3 of akuma cammy and fei long lol.

hrmm, the reasons why it hit ryu so bad is because he already had low firepower, and those setups OS safe jumps stuffs were his bread and butter POTENTIAL damage, it's not even high success rate if opponents just choose to block instead. so what dwu does is it further diminishes ryu's potential firepower. end result should be obvious, he have a hard time landing damage now.

the reasons why i think eryu is less reliant on his UB/fake crossups than ryu is on sweep is because it is far more situational than ryu's. for example, the 2 criteria for UB/fake crossups lies on having 2 meters, and scoring axe kick hard knockdown in corner since it's much easier to time the setups in corner. this is as compared to ryu's whiff punishing with sweep, which have a higher occurrence rate because of it fast speed. eryu can often win without using UB/fake crossup since the 2 bars would have been used for fadc from landing cr mk, 2 more meters if you attempt to go for the kill with corner carry combos into UB/fake crossups.

cammy's UB were far more simple, because he can do it on combo ending with soft knockdown and backthrow, unlike eryu's who potentially requires 2-4 meters depending on how he scores the hard knockdown or with throws, cammy can do it just from 1 meter ex cannon strike. end of the day it's much safer and easier to time the air cannon strike to land in front or behind, than eryu were to time it anywhere except corner where he can whiff a normal.

they actually nerf cammy alot, frame data wise and damage output, even though cammy thrives on soft knock down which was not impacted by dwu, she got many nerfs.

on the comparison of ryu and eryu, both are footsies chars, eryu have greater outburst of damage from neutral game but lower atk speed cr mk, ryu have faster atk speed of sweep, but lower firepower. dwu affect both of the potential damage after landing those for ryu and eryu, but from eryu standpoint, he win in firepower. makes sense now why daigo switched to eryu?  as the game system changes, from vortex power to neutral game power, it should make sense why eryu is a hot char now?


if you look at daigo, he is so much less reliant on setups than if you were to compare sako, who would almost attempt ambiguous jumps after a knockdown, while daigo simply reset the situation with a chip fb or back to neutral game. so what changes if you were to compare daigo ryu and daigo eryu? the obvious answer would be setups.

in case you didn't know, daigo ryu is a OS KING, and he is one of the best footsies player in sf4, along with sako, xian, infiltration and luffy. there is no other players that are even comparable to those in terms of footsies in my opinion. daigo's ryu 3 strong point was, fireball zoning, whiff punishing sweep in footsies and anti air shoryu. simple gameplan, but if you notice those gameplan doesn't land much damage isn't it ? so how does daigo win, he win by limiting opponent's options with safe jump setup into OS, so he can pressure his opponents safely and better, and at the same time, forcing his opponents into defensive 50/50 with frame traps or kara throw if they decide to block on wake up but ultimately, those are only potential damage which was nerf by dwu for ryu. 

so what changes, from ryu to eryu, the obvious would be, because of dwu, daigo no longer attempt as many of those setups as eryu doesn't even need those to land damage. 

i agree ryu is a much more solid char, since he have high hp and solid normals. while he got more ways to combo into ultra, eryu scores a higher damage, just comparing cr mk > ex fb > ultra and you would notice eryu have more damage. his cr mk > fb is not safer, in fact it is on the contrary because it is not a true blockstring. he does have a better fireball games though, especially with the new recent buffs. though daigo said it is not as good as he thought because it's not a true blockstring, i'm grateful of the buff personally haha.

on the topic of ken, i never thought he was weak, he is in ae2012 mid tier but in the shadows of ryu/eryu. but with so many useful buffs for example walkspeed, he is no doubt a top 10 char now in my opinion, add to the fact he is the only char who can hit confirm his dp fadc because of 2 hits, he was never hit as hard as ryu/sagat/eryu/akuma in regards to the dp fadc nerf.

glad you asked, cause i'm curious about yours too hahaha . in no particular order, my top tiers are all candidates for number 1 since they all have some very strong tools and yet not op. 

eryu, ken, akuma, cammy, fei long, yun, posion, ibuki, rose, viper, el furete, dudley, juri.

all those are up for debate on who is the actual number 1, because i firmly believe there is no number 1 char since ultra is very very balance. because even if people thought eryu and yun are number 1, you cannot say at all that eryu/yun dominate the chars i listed above at all 
so end of the day the determining factor for who is number 1 would depends on the numbers of advantageous matchups each char have, which would forever be up for debate since there is so many chars in usf and that zero player have a complete understanding of how all chars are played. 

[The Big Daddy C-Master]

Feb 9, 2015 22:00:26 GMT -5 doomfanatiq said:

i agree eryu never got compensated for how dwu affected his game, but honestly eryu is less reliant on UB/fake crossups than for example akuma on vortex, and ryu on OS safe jumps. that's my point. further explaination as below in the last point on the messy topic 

Well Akuma and Ryu don't need them and Akuma was good way before vortex was discovered; he was top tier every game. Unblockables were cheap as hell and while they weren't as braindead as Akuma's votex they were better than simple safe jumps.

Feb 9, 2015 22:00:26 GMT -5 doomfanatiq said:

it's because i value the ability to open up opponents higher than the ability to combo off everything, taking everything into consideration, the uses, the damage, the speed of the 3 supers, though i respect your opinion that ryu have more flexible uses which is why u thought his is better. this debate is done because we cannot convince each other on why which super is the best since all 3 of them are unique.

Ryu's super opens people up just fine though, but yea let's move on.

Feb 9, 2015 22:00:26 GMT -5 doomfanatiq said:

that's just one way of putting it, not forgetting that throw range in sf have a longer range than kof also. it's hard to compare honestly unless somebody compile the success rate of throws in kof13 and sf. the throw system basically is too different to pinpoint which throws are easier, the 2 examples are the 2 possible different viewpoints. and i'm not going to debate which is better since for me both are hard

From my personal experience, i thought throws was ridiculous when i first started sf4 because it cannot be tech on reaction, i get thrown to death alot learning the game ... it was only until much later after learning crouch tech that i thought throws are more balance in sf. 

I don't see on reaction techs in kof. In SF you have Gouken's back throw, but that's about it and the window for that is small.

Feb 9, 2015 22:00:26 GMT -5 doomfanatiq said:

at 4:50, when momochi whiffed the dp, sako did max damage combo using 2 meters, after which he was left with no meters to deter momochi from his offensive maneuver and got stunt, losing both the meters and the round. that was a very good example of poor meter management because sako like to style on his opponents.
sako could have gotten super if he did a normal combos 300-350 dmg after the dp whiff, which would result in limiting of momochi's movement more as eryu with full meters are even more threatening.
honestly, i don't think daigo would have risked the 2 meters for that hard combo just to style on his opponents, because of the damage scaling. 
i certainly respect your opinion that you should deal full damage anytime anywhere, but think of it this way for example gen, xian would most likely have gone for a normal damage combo to gain full super meters instead of fadc combos for gen so that opponents would be more limited in their options psychologically. sometimes, there's always a grey area in which things could have gone either way and you would reconsider the situations and options and i thought that was the defining moment in sako's match vs momochi.
can you link the video? because i am positive they cannot walk back or jump because of the 4 pre-frames in jumping, after super activated, there is only 1 frame for you to run, which makes it impossible to jump after the flash. that is the theory of frame data. the only possible scenario where it is possible to jump or walk back is, the super was activated beyond the throw range demon offers, so it takes more than 1 frame to reach his opponents which result in the walkback, or jump. and i have already mentioned in the previous example with dummy in training mode, demon throw range have more range than a normal eryu throw, which could have misled you into thinking they could have jumped or walk back.

I found Sako's play to be a lot weaker and sloppy based on his later play, might be the kid he has now but he was outfootsied and could have hop kicked a lot of those pokes.
If he had landed his hopkicks he would have had much more momentum. Not only that but he dropped that combo which hurt his positioning. Sako dropped way too much and lost too much momentum which helps with Evil Ryu. Not sure how spending more meter for less damage would have helped him out in this set. He was just outfootsied.
It's in video you showed. Many players were walking backwards and then got grabbed which means they could have jumped but they didn't. Not being used to it is likely the reason.

Feb 9, 2015 22:00:26 GMT -5 doomfanatiq said:

i agree, because many people who just started the game would blindly follow pros' opinions, or some haters who just hate eryu overrate him haha, which is why i tend to ignore those comments in EH saying straight up BS such as, op this or that, unless they offer logical explainations and there's room for debate like yours haha and it's the char that i play.

Exactly what I mean. Hence all the hype after Capcom Cup despite inconsistent performance and Evil Ryu using to plain Ryu at Evo last year.

Feb 9, 2015 22:00:26 GMT -5 doomfanatiq said:

this is a long topic there's so many points and it's going to get messy lol... u know ryu got some insignificant buffs prior to 1.04 right, alot of the casts had either insignificant buffs, or that there were buffs and nerfs at the same time like guile and deejay. those were part of the reasons why eryu became top tier even though he remained unchanged, for example, ibuki was top 10 in ae2012, and the top tiers above her got nerf and it made sense she became stronger now. something like that, so if eryu was mid tier in ae2012 hovering around 10-20 spots, eryu should be top 10 now because top 3 got nerf hard. i cannot comment on the rest of the top tiers because our opinions would be different other than the obvious top 3 of akuma cammy and fei long lol.
hrmm, the reasons why it hit ryu so bad is because he already had low firepower, and those setups OS safe jumps stuffs were his bread and butter POTENTIAL damage, it's not even high success rate if opponents just choose to block instead. so what dwu does is it further diminishes ryu's potential firepower. end result should be obvious, he have a hard time landing damage now.
the reasons why i think eryu is less reliant on his UB/fake crossups than ryu is on sweep is because it is far more situational than ryu's. for example, the 2 criteria for UB/fake crossups lies on having 2 meters, and scoring axe kick hard knockdown in corner since it's much easier to time the setups in corner. this is as compared to ryu's whiff punishing with sweep, which have a higher occurrence rate because of it fast speed. eryu can often win without using UB/fake crossup since the 2 bars would have been used for fadc from landing cr mk, 2 more meters if you attempt to go for the kill with corner carry combos into UB/fake crossups.

I don't think Evil Ryu being top ten is actually that unreasonable, I just don't agree with this Super Sayian Top Tier S++++ nonsense. Ibuki was more vortex reliant than Akuma and Seth who had much better tools but she was good, she got buffed in normals. Seth got hit a lot harder and Akuma has never been bad in an SF game. His tools were always good and got some *more* buffs in mid range. Evil Ryu is the least changed in the game and other characters at his level got buffed quite a bit. Makoto, Juri, Ken, etc.
Ryu's firepower isn't low. He can surpass 300 damage with no meter. That's better than most. He has better tools than most. DP, fireball, tatsu. He's never going to be bad in SF just like Akuma. Evil Ryu didn't need meters to do unblockable setups. He had cheap ones off of throws and everything. Fei Long is just too solid and Cammy only needs a soft knockdown.

The cast overall got buffed a lot in comparison to him and matches like Evil Ryu vs Chun, Rose, Blanka, etc had little to do with vortex anyways only a handful of matches.

Feb 9, 2015 22:00:26 GMT -5 doomfanatiq said:

cammy's UB were far more simple, because he can do it on combo ending with soft knockdown and backthrow, unlike eryu's who potentially requires 2-4 meters depending on how he scores the hard knockdown or with throws, cammy can do it just from 1 meter ex cannon strike. end of the day it's much safer and easier to time the air cannon strike to land in front or behind, than eryu were to time it anywhere except corner where he can whiff a normal.

they actually nerf cammy alot, frame data wise and damage output, even though cammy thrives on soft knock down which was not impacted by dwu, she got many nerfs.

That's why Cammy is still good. Her nerfs didn't change her gameplan and she always had good mobility, good normals, great frame advantage, with a stupid divekick. Evil Ryu had so many sick unblockables though.


That's just a sample.

Feb 9, 2015 22:00:26 GMT -5 doomfanatiq said:

on the comparison of ryu and eryu, both are footsies chars, eryu have greater outburst of damage from neutral game but lower atk speed cr mk, ryu have faster atk speed of sweep, but lower firepower. dwu affect both of the potential damage after landing those for ryu and eryu, but from eryu standpoint, he win in firepower. makes sense now why daigo switched to eryu?  as the game system changes, from vortex power to neutral game power, it should make sense why eryu is a hot char now?


if you look at daigo, he is so much less reliant on setups than if you were to compare sako, who would almost attempt ambiguous jumps after a knockdown, while daigo simply reset the situation with a chip fb or back to neutral game. so what changes if you were to compare daigo ryu and daigo eryu? the obvious answer would be setups.

I know why Daigo chose to use him. I understand that, but it doesn't make Ryu a bad character either. He also said Yun had a lot to do wth why he uses him. Ryu never relied on Vortex and he didn't pick Akuma and go far with him when it did (I think he tried to use Yun and Akuma some but meh).
Evil Ryu is hot because of Capcom Cup with Sako having that good night plus that pointless buff list that people overrated because of 50 health. -_-

Feb 9, 2015 22:00:26 GMT -5 doomfanatiq said:

in case you didn't know, daigo ryu is a OS KING, and he is one of the best footsies player in sf4, along with sako, xian, infiltration and luffy. there is no other players that are even comparable to those in terms of footsies in my opinion. daigo's ryu 3 strong point was, fireball zoning, whiff punishing sweep in footsies and anti air shoryu. simple gameplan, but if you notice those gameplan doesn't land much damage isn't it ? so how does daigo win, he win by limiting opponent's options with safe jump setup into OS, so he can pressure his opponents safely and better, and at the same time, forcing his opponents into defensive 50/50 with frame traps or kara throw if they decide to block on wake up but ultimately, those are only potential damage which was nerf by dwu for ryu. 

so what changes, from ryu to eryu, the obvious would be, because of dwu, daigo no longer attempt as many of those setups as eryu doesn't even need those to land damage. 

Right the setup game is weakened which is why Sako doesn't do it as much either. More than Daigo, but not quite as much. They just have a different approach.

Feb 9, 2015 22:00:26 GMT -5 doomfanatiq said:

i agree ryu is a much more solid char, since he have high hp and solid normals. while he got more ways to combo into ultra, eryu scores a higher damage, just comparing cr mk > ex fb > ultra and you would notice eryu have more damage. his cr mk > fb is not safer, in fact it is on the contrary because it is not a true blockstring. he does have a better fireball games though, especially with the new recent buffs. though daigo said it is not as good as he thought because it's not a true blockstring, i'm grateful of the buff personally haha.

on the topic of ken, i never thought he was weak, he is in ae2012 mid tier but in the shadows of ryu/eryu. but with so many useful buffs for example walkspeed, he is no doubt a top 10 char now in my opinion, add to the fact he is the only char who can hit confirm his dp fadc because of 2 hits, he was never hit as hard as ryu/sagat/eryu/akuma in regards to the dp fadc nerf.

Ryu has a better:
fireball
ex fireball
dp
tatsu for fireball wars
more flexible super
can combo into ultra more (similar to Evil Ryu)
his cr mk ->fireball is safer than before (not more safe than Evil Ryu)
better normals
can combo into cr mk or sweep.
etc.
The main thing that Evil Ryu does better is mobility and damage. Which is why Daigo lost to a Ryu in Evo because Ryu just handles that neutral better. This is really evident against Rose, Balrog, Fei Long, and strong footsie characters. I just wish people would stop saying Ryu has nothing good compared to Evil Ryu (not saying you say that but others do).
Don't get me started on people saying Akuma is a crappy Evil Ryu? Give me a break. Evil Ryu was a crappy Akuma/Ryu hybrid for years until that Capcom Cup. People annoy me with that crap.

Feb 9, 2015 22:00:26 GMT -5 doomfanatiq said:

glad you asked, cause i'm curious about yours too hahaha . in no particular order, my top tiers are all candidates for number 1 since they all have some very strong tools and yet not op. 

eryu, ken, akuma, cammy, fei long, yun, posion, ibuki, rose, viper, el furete, dudley, juri.

all those are up for debate on who is the actual number 1, because i firmly believe there is no number 1 char since ultra is very very balance. because even if people thought eryu and yun are number 1, you cannot say at all that eryu/yun dominate the chars i listed above at all 
so end of the day the determining factor for who is number 1 would depends on the numbers of advantageous matchups each char have, which would forever be up for debate since there is so many chars in usf and that zero player have a complete understanding of how all chars are played. 

That list actually isn't that bad. I'd change the order around from most but that's solid.
How do you feel about Makoto. I know people are giving El Fuerte some hype to. Do you think it might be overhype?

[doomfanatiq]

I don't see on reaction techs in kof. In SF you have Gouken's back throw, but that's about it and the window for that is small.

haha i see them alot more in older versions, in kof13 it's much more rare though. gouken is the only char with the slowest back throw i think, but even then it cannot be reacted in my opinion lol.

I found Sako's play to be a lot weaker and sloppy based on his later play, might be the kid he has now but he was outfootsied and could have hop kicked a lot of those pokes.

If he had landed his hopkicks he would have had much more momentum. Not only that but he dropped that combo which hurt his positioning. Sako dropped way too much and lost too much momentum which helps with Evil Ryu. Not sure how spending more meter for less damage would have helped him out in this set. He was just outfootsied.

It's in video you showed. Many players were walking backwards and then got grabbed which means they could have jumped but they didn't. Not being used to it is likely the reason.

hop kicks involve reading your opponents, you cannot do it on reaction of seeing the pokes whiff, which might be why he hardly attempt it because he couldn't get a good read on momochi lol.

btw i tested, the sako combo he did only gave 428 damage with 2 meters if he never dropped it (he already deal 405 damage when he dropped it), eryu can deal 373 damage without 2 meters with a normal axe kick combo ending with dp lol... below are what cost him that round in my opinion

1) if he saved the meters instead of just styling on his opponents and did a eryu basic combo ending with 373. he would have about 3-4 meters to dp on wake up and fadc if blocked and momochi may not have gotten so offensive instead, which would not result in him dizzy and losing the round in a matter of 18 seconds only.

2) it's also a fact that he did a much harder combo for only 428 dmg as compared to the usual combo. there's less risk of him dropping if he had done the basic 373 damage combo

3) he got outfootsies 3 times in a round after dropping the combo, getting hit by ken cr mk.

4) he opt for bd instead of just blocking and got hit by ken os st hk on wake up. that's 200 stun damage. 

those 4 points above are what cost him that round, if any of the above changes, there would be a high chance of sako winning the round and getting 2-0 due to him landing 500 damage already in opening 10 seconds.

I don't think Evil Ryu being top ten is actually that unreasonable, I just don't agree with this Super Sayian Top Tier S++++ nonsense. Ibuki was more vortex reliant than Akuma and Seth who had much better tools but she was good, she got buffed in normals. Seth got hit a lot harder and Akuma has never been bad in an SF game. His tools were always good and got some *more* buffs in mid range. Evil Ryu is the least changed in the game and other characters at his level got buffed quite a bit. Makoto, Juri, Ken, etc.

Ryu's firepower isn't low. He can surpass 300 damage with no meter. That's better than most. He has better tools than most. DP, fireball, tatsu. He's never going to be bad in SF just like Akuma. Evil Ryu didn't need meters to do unblockable setups. He had cheap ones off of throws and everything. Fei Long is just too solid and Cammy only needs a soft knockdown.



The cast overall got buffed a lot in comparison to him and matches like Evil Ryu vs Chun, Rose, Blanka, etc had little to do with vortex anyways only a handful of matches

haha like i said, those who overrate him as absolute number 1 are either haters or blindly just following daigo opinion without thinking critically, daigo was wrong before in ae2012 where he said ryu was top tier, thinking back it was hilarious... though he was correct about akuma and cammy haha.

as for ibuki, her vortex was not nerf because she can change her setups accordingly after a whiff normal while watching the screen if there's dwu, unlike akuma who have to immediately do a demon flip after a sweep which makes it impossible to change akuma's setup, impacting the usefulness of his vortex.

ryu's firepower is only low if you are considering the neutral game, daigo was thinking from that perspective, if you were talking about combo wise ryu was never a low damage char, he have one of the hardest hitting combo. but the point is, it's hard to land a jump in, focus attack, Solar Plexus in a neutral game. if u didn't understand why it's hard to land SP, it's because it is slow and can be avoided on reaction after absorbing the first hit with BD after performing focus attack. that's the reason why u rarely see daigo ryu doing any of those 3 in high level. 

That's why Cammy is still good. Her nerfs didn't change her gameplan and she always had good mobility, good normals, great frame advantage, with a stupid divekick. Evil Ryu had so many sick unblockables though.

hahaha i am well aware of those UB, i was abusing them when this video came out online. but in case you never noticed, most of those stuffs are in corner lol. it's less 'practical' than ryu's sweep or cammy's back throw or combo ending into UB/fake crossups anywhere on screen. even though i understand your argument that it's much more powerful than ryu's sweep, but it doesn't change the fact that ryu is still much more reliant on sweep due to the high recurring rate in neutral game as compared to eryu's UB which mostly only happen in corner and requires 2-4 meters to perform depending on how you land your first hit.

i am just purely comparing the recurring rate/success rate of both options, sweep and UB/fake crossups, to determine who is more reliant on which options. 

ryu Sweep is 5 frame fast and requires 0 meter, combo ender 0 meters and can happen anywhere on screen = more likely to happen

eryu UB/fake crossups mostly happen in corner, it's much harder to time it elsewhere on screen unless you are sako. and it requies a throw at close range, or 7 frame cr mk with 2-4 meters to perform a combo ending with axe kick = situational and less likely to happen as compared to sweep 

End of the day, ryu/eryu still can win without it albeit harder, but the argument here is who suffers more because of dwu. the obvious answer in my opinion is ryu because of the difference in success rate of both options.

I know why Daigo chose to use him. I understand that, but it doesn't make Ryu a bad character either. He also said Yun had a lot to do wth why he uses him. Ryu never relied on Vortex and he didn't pick Akuma and go far with him when it did (I think he tried to use Yun and Akuma some but meh).

Evil Ryu is hot because of Capcom Cup with Sako having that good night plus that pointless buff list that people overrated because of 50 health. -_-

ryu is not a bad char in ae2012, solid mid tier as daigo said after winning topanga his greatest achievement is winning with a mid tier char. but he was bump down in ultra because of dwu, which nerf his gameplan alot and capcom never gave him any significant buffs. let's review the 1.01 changelog 

Crouch MK advantage on block increased by 1 frame (-3F → -2F on block)

Jump MP 1st hit now cancellable into L, M, H and EX Airborne Tatsumaki Senpukyaku

EX Hadoken start-up reduced by 1 frame (12F → 11F)

L, M, and H Airborne Tatsumaki Senpukyaku can now be used in air combos

EX Airborne Tatsumaki Senpukyaku hitbox expanded and vacuum effect on hit increased, easier to land all hits

L and M Shoryuken → EX Focus Cancel → Forward Dash is now -5F on block

EX Shoryuken (1 hit) → EX Focus Cancel → Forward Dash can be followed by all strikes except throws

Metsu Shoryuken (UC2) invincibility time increased by 1 frame (1-8F → 1-9F)

there's some good buffs but can you honestly tell me ryu was buff more than nerf ? the dp fadc -5 was a big deal and add to that dwu greatly reduce his offensive/potential capabilities. 

anyway, eryu was discovered quite late in ae2012 the same way gen was discovered late, so it's not surprising if their tiers change because of unfamiliarity but i would maintain my stance that there is nothing op about gen and eryu, even though i seriously hate gen's super > ultra combo, but i perfectly understand it's strong only because gen had no other reliable way of landing his ultra. as for eryu, it's very possible he is overrated just because sako won, the same way ryu/gen was overrated because daigo and xian win alot, which resulted in people were quick to jump on the eryu bandwagon because  of 50 hp buff LOL.

Right the setup game is weakened which is why Sako doesn't do it as much either. More than Daigo, but not quite as much. They just have a different approach.

at 4:40 vs momochi, he did it again causing momochi wake up dp to whiff hahaha, i am pretty sure sako would go for it even with dwu every single time he get the chance =p, that's how reliant or confident he is on setups lol, i remember xiaohai was bitching (cannot remember the details) about sako's unblockables on cammy after losing in topanga to sako eryu lol. but you are right daigo and sako have very very different approach lol, or maybe it could be just that sako is rusty since he used too many chars and taking care of baby 

Ryu has a better:

fireball

ex fireball

dp

tatsu for fireball wars

more flexible super

can combo into ultra more (similar to Evil Ryu)

his cr mk ->fireball is safer than before (not more safe than Evil Ryu)

better normals

can combo into cr mk or sweep.

etc.

The main thing that Evil Ryu does better is mobility and damage. Which is why Daigo lost to a Ryu in Evo because Ryu just handles that neutral better. This is really evident against Rose, Balrog, Fei Long, and strong footsie characters. I just wish people would stop saying Ryu has nothing good compared to Evil Ryu (not saying you say that but others do).

Don't get me started on people saying Akuma is a crappy Evil Ryu? Give me a break. Evil Ryu was a crappy Akuma/Ryu hybrid for years until that Capcom Cup. People annoy me with that crap

Eryu have a better:
escape options BD or teleport
mobility
more ambiguous setups (a read base on dwu now, unblockables still exist)
higher damage all round
better cr mk > fb true blockstring most of the time
good uses for both ultras
alternative better function with super in opening up opponents (mention alternative in case we end up debating which super is better again  )
better st mk in whiffing good normals
hop kick to blow up crouch tech (highest damage anti crouch tech tool with 1 meter)
etc

Bingo, you are correct on ryu's stuffs that are better than eryu haha, nothing i could disagree on. as for the rose mu, i really thought it had gotten much worse now because i cannot pressure rose as ryu on knockdown with os, and that fb could be gotten over with ex spiral  . this is really an example of good matchup in ae2012 which turned for the worse in ultra because ryu cannot lock down rose anymore with dwu... 

as for daigo eryu losing john choi ryu, that was because daigo played worse than his opponents, dropping more obvious combos than john too in the matches, and besides, that is only ft2 where both players actually did very badly in my opinion, with john edging out daigo with slightly better play. so it's not very accurate to say ryu beats eryu in my opinion, i need longer sets where both players are at their best (at least not dropping obvious combos haha) to be better able to analyse accurately.

well, akuma have never been weak lol, but think of it this way, gen/eryu was low tier until xian and sako came along with their discovered techs and showing how effective they can be, so it's very unwise to continue to underrate them in this situation. we shouldn't follow the pros opinions blindly, just like i disagreed when daigo thought ryu was top tier in ae2012 because of the lack of tools as compared to the top tiers, and i disagree now with daigo again that he thought eryu was number 1 because i thought there are other strong contenders. but i still respect him since that's his opinion.

the point is you shouldn't be annoyed with people's opinions unless they are blatantly obvious in downplaying their chars hahaha. if they are, just ignore them like i do since they are trolls who are incapable of critical thinking of why the char is good/bad.

That list actually isn't that bad. I'd change the order around from most but that's solid.

How do you feel about Makoto. I know people are giving El Fuerte some hype to. Do you think it might be overhype?

honestly, i analysed and debate about el furete in EH before, because bonchan lost to pepeday 

long story cut short, what i noticed from the matches were that, tortilla and Q-bomb have one of the most ridiculous risk rewards in the game for a special move with 0-1 meters. 

1) tortilla is hard to punish on reaction and when it whiff when opponnets jump, furete players can punish with ultra or Guacamole Leg Throw. this is something like even when furete players made a bad read on tortilla, yet they are able to punish their opponents.

2) Q-bomb ex push back on block is too much (hard to punish), and the invincibility frames was buff too much, the risk is really low when blocked, and yet very rewarding when hit especially on counter hits.

but still, maybe those are what furete needs to be viable and as long as it's not OP, i'm fine with it.

as for makoto, i thought she was overhyped. her bad walkspeed really force her to go all out or die trying, just watch xian vs hatani and u should get my example. she's mid-high tier material and will never be low tier because of her ridiculous damage, but she cannot ever be top tier because of her lack of tools in getting over fb, getting in, and defending herself on wake up. her gameplan is just so one sided... 

[The Big Daddy C-Master]

Feb 10, 2015 9:36:45 GMT -5 doomfanatiq said:

haha i see them alot more in older versions, in kof13 it's much more rare though. gouken is the only char with the slowest back throw i think, but even then it cannot be reacted in my opinion lol.
hop kicks involve reading your opponents, you cannot do it on reaction of seeing the pokes whiff, which might be why he hardly attempt it because he couldn't get a good read on momochi lol.

Yea I haven't seen it in Kof XIII at all. Plus Kof has a lot more to look out for.
Yes but Momochi was spamming that cr mk. He had many opportunities to capitalize off of it, but he didn't. He was just outfootsied like I said.

Feb 10, 2015 9:36:45 GMT -5 doomfanatiq said:

btw i tested, the sako combo he did only gave 428 damage with 2 meters if he never dropped it (he already deal 405 damage when he dropped it), eryu can deal 373 damage without 2 meters with a normal axe kick combo ending with dp lol... below are what cost him that round in my opinion
1) if he saved the meters instead of just styling on his opponents and did a eryu basic combo ending with 373. he would have about 3-4 meters to dp on wake up and fadc if blocked and momochi may not have gotten so offensive instead, which would not result in him dizzy and losing the round in a matter of 18 seconds only.
2) it's also a fact that he did a much harder combo for only 428 dmg as compared to the usual combo. there's less risk of him dropping if he had done the basic 373 damage combo
3) he got outfootsies 3 times in a round after dropping the combo, getting hit by ken cr mk.
4) he opt for bd instead of just blocking and got hit by ken os st hk on wake up. that's 200 stun damage. 
those 4 points above are what cost him that round, if any of the above changes, there would be a high chance of sako winning the round and getting 2-0 due to him landing 500 damage already in opening 10 seconds.

Yea, not sure why people use the less damaging combos that require weird linking. Maybe he's styling but I would never be less practical.
If he had used the optimal 452 damage combo he would have gotten over a bar back and he would have done almost 50% damage and even closed out the round so there's no reason for him not to do it if he had the chance. If he had done the 373 damage combo he would have built less meter, not to mention less corner carry and on top of that I don't see how doing 370 at four bars and fishing for it would have helped because he was just getting destroyed in footsies.

Feb 10, 2015 9:36:45 GMT -5 doomfanatiq said:

haha like i said, those who overrate him as absolute number 1 are either haters or blindly just following daigo opinion without thinking critically, daigo was wrong before in ae2012 where he said ryu was top tier, thinking back it was hilarious... though he was correct about akuma and cammy haha.
as for ibuki, her vortex was not nerf because she can change her setups accordingly after a whiff normal while watching the screen if there's dwu, unlike akuma who have to immediately do a demon flip after a sweep which makes it impossible to change akuma's setup, impacting the usefulness of his vortex.
ryu's firepower is only low if you are considering the neutral game, daigo was thinking from that perspective, if you were talking about combo wise ryu was never a low damage char, he have one of the hardest hitting combo. but the point is, it's hard to land a jump in, focus attack, Solar Plexus in a neutral game. if u didn't understand why it's hard to land SP, it's because it is slow and can be avoided on reaction after absorbing the first hit with BD after performing focus attack. that's the reason why u rarely see daigo ryu doing any of those 3 in high level. 

Problem is pros jump on the bandwagon too.
Ibuki didn't lose everything but it is harder to do than before. Akuma still has setups but he's not braindead.
Ryu's damage in mid screen is lower like everybody else, but he still outdamages most in that range too and his normals are just flat out better than most and he has better tools to.

Feb 10, 2015 9:36:45 GMT -5 doomfanatiq said:

hahaha i am well aware of those UB, i was abusing them when this video came out online. but in case you never noticed, most of those stuffs are in corner lol. it's less 'practical' than ryu's sweep or cammy's back throw or combo ending into UB/fake crossups anywhere on screen. even though i understand your argument that it's much more powerful than ryu's sweep, but it doesn't change the fact that ryu is still much more reliant on sweep due to the high recurring rate in neutral game as compared to eryu's UB which mostly only happen in corner and requires 2-4 meters to perform depending on how you land your first hit.
i am just purely comparing the recurring rate/success rate of both options, sweep and UB/fake crossups, to determine who is more reliant on which options. 
ryu Sweep is 5 frame fast and requires 0 meter, combo ender 0 meters and can happen anywhere on screen = more likely to happen
eryu UB/fake crossups mostly happen in corner, it's much harder to time it elsewhere on screen unless you are sako. and it requies a throw at close range, or 7 frame cr mk with 2-4 meters to perform a combo ending with axe kick = situational and less likely to happen as compared to sweep 
End of the day, ryu/eryu still can win without it albeit harder, but the argument here is who suffers more because of dwu. the obvious answer in my opinion is ryu because of the difference in success rate of both options.

You also have to keep in mind that Evil Ryu has ambiguous setups on midscreen from his divekick and those are also killed. Ryu has a more consistent mid range game that doesn't really have any flaws and even without hard knockdown shenanigans wouldn't be hurt as bad. His neutral game is still top notch (not Vega good mind you but still really good).
Evil Ryu's mid range game is more inconsistent but more damaging, some matchups he just has a hard time (like he did in Evo). I think Akuma's vortex and unblockables are far more potent and cheap than safejumps which are just honest ways around dp's. You can't even safe jump 3f moves anyways.

Feb 10, 2015 9:36:45 GMT -5 doomfanatiq said:

ryu is not a bad char in ae2012, solid mid tier as daigo said after winning topanga his greatest achievement is winning with a mid tier char. but he was bump down in ultra because of dwu, which nerf his gameplan alot and capcom never gave him any significant buffs. let's review the 1.01 changelog 
Crouch MK advantage on block increased by 1 frame (-3F → -2F on block)
Jump MP 1st hit now cancellable into L, M, H and EX Airborne Tatsumaki Senpukyaku
EX Hadoken start-up reduced by 1 frame (12F → 11F)
L, M, and H Airborne Tatsumaki Senpukyaku can now be used in air combos
EX Airborne Tatsumaki Senpukyaku hitbox expanded and vacuum effect on hit increased, easier to land all hits
L and M Shoryuken → EX Focus Cancel → Forward Dash is now -5F on block
EX Shoryuken (1 hit) → EX Focus Cancel → Forward Dash can be followed by all strikes except throws
Metsu Shoryuken (UC2) invincibility time increased by 1 frame (1-8F → 1-9F)
there's some good buffs but can you honestly tell me ryu was buff more than nerf ? the dp fadc -5 was a big deal and add to that dwu greatly reduce his offensive/potential capabilities. 

He got more ways to combo into ultra, a harder to deal with mid range game (which makes him more like Evil Ryu), and he got a better fireball game on top of that. DWU hurt him some but it also hurt a lot of characters who needed it more than he did. The DP was definitely harsh.
Evil Ryu got the worse "buffs" in the game and many were really fixes and not even fully fixed. He lost his unblockables and ambiguous jumpins and he lost his health that he got because that was overhyped. He is without a doubt weaker but people just jump him up to the very top.

Feb 10, 2015 9:36:45 GMT -5 doomfanatiq said:

anyway, eryu was discovered quite late in ae2012 the same way gen was discovered late, so it's not surprising if their tiers change because of unfamiliarity but i would maintain my stance that there is nothing op about gen and eryu, even though i seriously hate gen's super > ultra combo, but i perfectly understand it's strong only because gen had no other reliable way of landing his ultra. as for eryu, it's very possible he is overrated just because sako won, the same way ryu/gen was overrated because daigo and xian win alot, which resulted in people were quick to jump on the eryu bandwagon because  of 50 hp buff LOL.

Well that's Capcom logic. Let's nerf whoever does well (except Rose apparently). Evil Ryu was already shown to have potential when Naruo, Naga, Kok, and others used him. People just ignored me and others saying it and looked at Sako do well when he has a lot of bad days with Evil Ryu (like now). Gen's super into ultra was a bit crazy though.

Feb 10, 2015 9:36:45 GMT -5 doomfanatiq said:

at 4:40 vs momochi, he did it again causing momochi wake up dp to whiff hahaha, i am pretty sure sako would go for it even with dwu every single time he get the chance =p, that's how reliant or confident he is on setups lol, i remember xiaohai was bitching (cannot remember the details) about sako's unblockables on cammy after losing in topanga to sako eryu lol. but you are right daigo and sako have very very different approach lol, or maybe it could be just that sako is rusty since he used too many chars and taking care of baby 

Sako still uses them but he definitely used them much more when DWU wasn't there. I'm not a fan of how Capcom "balances" stuff to say the least.

Feb 10, 2015 9:36:45 GMT -5 doomfanatiq said:

Eryu have a better:
escape options BD or teleport
mobility
more ambiguous setups (a read base on dwu now, unblockables still exist)
higher damage all round
better cr mk > fb true blockstring most of the time
good uses for both ultras
alternative better function with super in opening up opponents (mention alternative in case we end up debating which super is better again  )
better st mk in whiffing good normals
hop kick to blow up crouch tech (highest damage anti crouch tech tool with 1 meter)
etc
Bingo, you are correct on ryu's stuffs that are better than eryu haha, nothing i could disagree on. as for the rose mu, i really thought it had gotten much worse now because i cannot pressure rose as ryu on knockdown with os, and that fb could be gotten over with ex spiral  . this is really an example of good matchup in ae2012 which turned for the worse in ultra because ryu cannot lock down rose anymore with dwu... 

Evil Ryu's mobility is definitely better but at teleport is utter garbage. It's almost never used in top level play and for a good reason. Ryu also is better at maintaining plus frames or advantage with solar plexus.
His normals are pretty much all better except for standing mk. His cr mk has more active frames, a better hitbox, and is faster. His sweep is faster too. His cr hp is 4 frames (compared to Evil Ryu's 6) etc. More health, more stun much easier combos. Just a more solid character and definitely better for beginners.
Evil Ryu is more risk more reward, which makes the most sense.

Feb 10, 2015 9:36:45 GMT -5 doomfanatiq said:

as for daigo eryu losing john choi ryu, that was because daigo played worse than his opponents, dropping more obvious combos than john too in the matches, and besides, that is only ft2 where both players actually did very badly in my opinion, with john edging out daigo with slightly better play. so it's not very accurate to say ryu beats eryu in my opinion, i need longer sets where both players are at their best (at least not dropping obvious combos haha) to be better able to analyse accurately.

Well they deeply analyzed that and they said the same thing about Ryu simply controlling the neutral game better. Ryu definitely beat Evil Ryu in the past neutral game as his normals were just faster and you couldn't hop kick his low pokes effectively. Evil Ryu has to be more precise in midscreen to reap the reward. Just like Momochi, if your opponent uses smart pokes you're in trouble.

Feb 10, 2015 9:36:45 GMT -5 doomfanatiq said:

well, akuma have never been weak lol, but think of it this way, gen/eryu was low tier until xian and sako came along with their discovered techs and showing how effective they can be, so it's very unwise to continue to underrate them in this situation. we shouldn't follow the pros opinions blindly, just like i disagreed when daigo thought ryu was top tier in ae2012 because of the lack of tools as compared to the top tiers, and i disagree now with daigo again that he thought eryu was number 1 because i thought there are other strong contenders. but i still respect him since that's his opinion.

Well Evil Ryu was considered low tier in 2011AE or low mid. He was slowly bumped up to about mid tier (around 20 or so on the list). Sako and those "buffs" (worthless) was when he went to #1 for no real reason. Nobody cares about Gen.

Feb 10, 2015 9:36:45 GMT -5 doomfanatiq said:

the point is you shouldn't be annoyed with people's opinions unless they are blatantly obvious in downplaying their chars hahaha. if they are, just ignore them like i do since they are trolls who are incapable of critical thinking of why the char is good/bad.

My irritation is with people's bad logic and Capcom's balancing situations where they just randomly buff/nerf any character for no real reason based on ignorant opinion, even Combofiend admitted they did it.
Kof does a much better job balancing their game as does Virtua Fighter and I find their communities to be much better and less fanboy biased. These people are saying Akuma's bad for goodness sake. Akuma! Bleh.

Feb 10, 2015 9:36:45 GMT -5 doomfanatiq said:

honestly, i analysed and debate about el furete in EH before, because bonchan lost to pepeday  ;-
long story cut short, what i noticed from the matches were that, tortilla and Q-bomb have one of the most ridiculous risk rewards in the game for a special move with 0-1 meters. 
1) tortilla is hard to punish on reaction and when it whiff when opponnets jump, furete players can punish with ultra or Guacamole Leg Throw. this is something like even when furete players made a bad read on tortilla, yet they are able to punish their opponents.
2) Q-bomb ex push back on block is too much (hard to punish), and the invincibility frames was buff too much, the risk is really low when blocked, and yet very rewarding when hit especially on counter hits.
but still, maybe those are what furete needs to be viable and as long as it's not OP, i'm fine with it.
as for makoto, i thought she was overhyped. her bad walkspeed really force her to go all out or die trying, just watch xian vs hatani and u should get my example. she's mid-high tier material and will never be low tier because of her ridiculous damage, but she cannot ever be top tier because of her lack of tools in getting over fb, getting in, and defending herself on wake up. her gameplan is just so one sided... 

Makoto was considered better than Evil Ryu and people liked her "guess wrong" and die approach with a stronger mid range but people are hyping Evil Ryu and she vanished. To be honest most haven't said much about Juri or Ken, nobody cares about Viper and Sakura is gone too. Nobody even cares about Akuma. I think Fuerte has that gimmick and that powerful Ex move. I'd like to see him in more play though to be sure.

[doomfanatiq]

Yea, not sure why people use the less damaging combos that require weird linking. Maybe he's styling but I would never be less practical.

If he had used the optimal 452 damage combo he would have gotten over a bar back and he would have done almost 50% damage and even closed out the round so there's no reason for him not to do it if he had the chance. If he had done the 373 damage combo he would have built less meter, not to mention less corner carry and on top of that I don't see how doing 370 at four bars and fishing for it would have helped because he was just getting destroyed in footsies.

there's 3 reasons for less damaging combos in that situation when ken whiff dp on wake up.

1) the meters are better off using from cr mk > fb fadc combo to net 300+ damage, instead of 100+ only with cr mk > fb.

2) because of damage scaling, it is not worth doing 50 more damage for 428 damage with 2 meters when you can already land 373 meterless combo damage.

3) he would have saved the meters for defensive and offensive measures of dp fadc, or cr mk > fb, or even super since he would have had 3 meters and close to 4 from the 373 damage combos.

btw, i am curious what is the 452 damage combos with 2 meters as u mentioned ? i thought eryu can only go above 450 damage with 2 meters if he landed a jump in, in that specific situation when ken whiffed dp, eryu can do 452 damage starting with Cl hp ? 

If he had done the 373 damage combo he would have built less meter, not to mention less corner carry and on top of that I don't see how doing 370 at four bars and fishing for it would have helped because he was just getting destroyed in footsies

i disagree, it is ok to get out footsies twice by ken cr mk> fb because at max range ken cannot net much damage, it is evident when you see momochi cr mk > fb fadc and cr mk again, doing nothing.


the defining moment was when sako woke up and bd under pressure after been thrown (BD was one of the best option in escaping the pressure without meters), and got hit by ken os St HK with 200 stun damage, which was my point, if he have not extended the meters to style on momochi and went for the practical 373 damage instead, he would have had meters to dp fadc on wake up on momochi's unsafe jump after been thrown. 

Problem is pros jump on the bandwagon too.

Ibuki didn't lose everything but it is harder to do than before. Akuma still has setups but he's not braindead.

Ryu's damage in mid screen is lower like everybody else, but he still outdamages most in that range too and his normals are just flat out better than most and he has better tools to.

luffy likes to underrate rose, some pros like to jump on the bandwagon, daigo overrate his own chars. all those are just opinions at the end of the day. 

ibuki's vortex is harder, but it's much more viable than akuma's setups who require read now for dwu since it can be done on reaction.

well, daigo was comparing ryu to eryu firepower, basically daigo's opinion is that there's no point using ryu when u have a better version in eryu since eryu get much more damage from neutral game, and he have more threatening setups (divekicks) to get potential damage off a knockdown than ryu. 

of course, ryu have areas where he does better than eryu, such as the zoning game because of the buff in his fireballs speed. but end of the day, eryu have more tools and the end result is it is easier to win with eryu than ryu, though not by a large margin in my opinion.

You also have to keep in mind that Evil Ryu has ambiguous setups on midscreen from his divekick and those are also killed. Ryu has a more consistent mid range game that doesn't really have any flaws and even without hard knockdown shenanigans wouldn't be hurt as bad. His neutral game is still top notch (not Vega good mind you but still really good).

Evil Ryu's mid range game is more inconsistent but more damaging, some matchups he just has a hard time (like he did in Evo). I think Akuma's vortex and unblockables are far more potent and cheap than safejumps which are just honest ways around dp's. You can't even safe jump 3f moves anyways

now that you mention divekicks, u know that divekicks can be done on reaction to counter dwu right lol. that's also the reason why dwu never impact eryu as much as ryu now that i think about it.

it is very unfair in my opinion to say that ryu doesn't have much flaw in mid range game.

1) that cr mk > fb is not a true blockstring,
2) sweep is one of the slowest recovery in game, and it doesn't net much damage, and dwu affect the potential damage after sweep, which impact the effectiveness of ryu's sweep by alot, unlike eryu who can throw out fb brainlessly on cr mk hit, ryu players actually have to think before cancelling.

there's no doubt his neutral game is good, that was why he was a solid char, but to say that he doesn't have any flaws is just pure bias because i believe there are flaws in everything, the debate should be whether the good outweigh the bad.

as for akuma vortex, i agree it is still potent, but because of dwu, akuma players really have to commit to a read on whether their opponents does dwu or not, which half the effectiveness of vortex by half 50/50, and on top of the 50% akuma have to choose his 3-4 options, which again decrease the probability of landing his read... just by simple math terms, u know that his vortex was impact alot....

the impact is comparable to eryu loss of UB/fakecrossups, but bearing in mind that akuma is more reliant on sweep to get his vortex going than eryu is on his corner setups...

i realised it's very hard to debate over the impact of dwu on ryu/eryu/akuma because we have been comparing the wrong things lol

let's try to compare apple to apple, ryu's sweep/neutral game to eryu and akumas sweep/neutral game, and let's compare eryu UB setups off throws and combos to ryu/akuma setups/vortex off throws and combos. that way you get the bigger picture of why ryu and akuma is impact more by dwu.

He got more ways to combo into ultra, a harder to deal with mid range game (which makes him more like Evil Ryu), and he got a better fireball game on top of that. DWU hurt him some but it also hurt a lot of characters who needed it more than he did. The DP was definitely harsh.

Evil Ryu got the worse "buffs" in the game and many were really fixes and not even fully fixed. He lost his unblockables and ambiguous jumpins and he lost his health that he got because that was overhyped. He is without a doubt weaker but people just jump him up to the very top

instead of assuming, let's list the more 'ways' of combo into ultra.
ryu ultra 1
cr mk>ex fb> fadc ultra
dp fadc> ultra
corner ex tatsu> ultra
corner ex fb > ultra
jump MP > ultra
lp dp anti air> ultra

eryu ultra 2
cr mk>ex fb fadc > ultra

cr mk> fb fadc > ultra (sako did it with 2 meters, never seen from daigo i think)
dp fadc> ultra

corner ex tatsu> ultra

jump MP > ultra

lp dp anti air> ultra
raw anti air ultra


so did i miss any?

harder to deal with mid range game, what does that mean? and for ryu or eryu ?

eryu never got much buffs except the health buff, and even that was reverted which was harsh in my opinion. he is without a doubt weaker, but the real question is, how much stronger are the rest of the chars in comparison to eryu? you can list a few examples in your opinions which i will analyse the changelog to see if there are any effective buffs or nerfs overall.

Well that's Capcom logic. Let's nerf whoever does well (except Rose apparently). Evil Ryu was already shown to have potential when Naruo, Naga, Kok, and others used him. People just ignored me and others saying it and looked at Sako do well when he has a lot of bad days with Evil Ryu (like now). Gen's super into ultra was a bit crazy though.

agreed on the nerf part and even daigo mentioned he thought capcom was harsh always nerfing chars whenever players did well (think he was mentioning bonchan sagat in that interview but cannot remember the details), but still i appreciate what capcom does because ultimately this is more balance than ae2012 

as for eryu, it takes a player of sako's level to truely shine with him, same as what luffy, daigo, xian, pr rog, justin wong, did with their respective mains. 

Evil Ryu's mobility is definitely better but at teleport is utter garbage. It's almost never used in top level play and for a good reason. Ryu also is better at maintaining plus frames or advantage with solar plexus.

His normals are pretty much all better except for standing mk. His cr mk has more active frames, a better hitbox, and is faster. His sweep is faster too. His cr hp is 4 frames (compared to Evil Ryu's 6) etc. More health, more stun much easier combos. Just a more solid character and definitely better for beginners.

Evil Ryu is more risk more reward, which makes the most sense.

his teleport is more situational than akuma's, sako used it 2 times vs momochi and he only got punished once, daigo used it more in the series but even then it's much more rare than akuma's. so i am uncertain if it's completely useless since there are times when sako and daigo did it under pressure. the possibility could be that it's only useful in certain matchups and that it's very risky for the rest.

as for ryu SP, it is 0 on block, neither plus nor minus frames. and it is very slow, can be hit out it from low pokes unlike ibuki's overhead and eryu hop kick. the trade off is bigger damage and good for combos when landing focus attacks, but ryu doesn't have a particular good range on his focus attacks too, just average.

cr mk, ryu is faster and better hurtbox(am pretty sure you meant hurtbox and not hitbox lol), eryu is better hitbox(longer), higher damage with meters and true blockstring. up for debate but ultimately depends on which you value higher, ease of use or damage.

st mk, no debate eryu is better cause faster

cr hp, no debate ryu is better

sweep, no debate ryu is better

health points, ryu better more solid

mobility, eryu better

potential damage combos, eryu higher damage, since ryu cannot do fadc combos into SP for higher damage.

there's more to add on but feel free to add in if i missed any for now. 

ya i agree ryu is a easier to use char, but it doesn't mean eryu is high risk at all, from a neutral game perspective, eryu cr mk > fb is alot safer than ryu's. but ryu's cr mk is safer than eryu(faster startup, less risks to get interrupt), and eryu's sweep is also safer than ryu's (less risk to get punished on block). 

in terms of combos, eryu is high risks, because his combos are harder to do than ryu's, but this make sense because he have a better reward as u mention lol. 

Well they deeply analyzed that and they said the same thing about Ryu simply controlling the neutral game better. Ryu definitely beat Evil Ryu in the past neutral game as his normals were just faster and you couldn't hop kick his low pokes effectively. Evil Ryu has to be more precise in midscreen to reap the reward. Just like Momochi, if your opponent uses smart pokes you're in trouble.

my point was, the match is inaccurate because of 2 points below.

1) short sets are not good indicator of matchups
2) it's a match that are filled with mistakes from both players dropping combos.

when you argued that demon is not as effective as i thought u said daigo only did it on 1 night(even though it was ft7 on 2 days lol and against top players), why would you not use that same logic on such a short set ? there's not much for us to go on a high level ryu vs eryu game to give a accurate assessment of who have the advantage on neutral game in my opinion. right now i am even uncertain of the matchup cause capcom keep changing the chars.

Well Evil Ryu was considered low tier in 2011AE or low mid. He was slowly bumped up to about mid tier (around 20 or so on the list). Sako and those "buffs" (worthless) was when he went to #1 for no real reason. Nobody cares about Gen

the thing is, no pros in the right mind would continue to underrate their own chars if they managed to continue winning, xian said gen was high tier in ae2012 even though everyone thought he was a low tier hero. because there must be something in the char that allows them to win at high level. it would be unwise to rate eryu lowly in my opinion especially when they are doing well with the char. the only person who blatantly underrate their own char when winning is luffy lol

My irritation is with people's bad logic and Capcom's balancing situations where they just randomly buff/nerf any character for no real reason based on ignorant opinion, even Combofiend admitted they did it.

Kof does a much better job balancing their game as does Virtua Fighter and I find their communities to be much better and less fanboy biased. These people are saying Akuma's bad for goodness sake. Akuma! Bleh.

there's no char loyalist in kof lol, people just jump to whatever char they feel fits the matchup and play them whatever, which is why there's less debate in kof13 because winning at all cost is justified. however in sf, u have char loyalist vs counter picks debate and generally more people concern with sf than kof which is why there's alot of biased fanboys i think 

Makoto was considered better than Evil Ryu and people liked her "guess wrong" and die approach with a stronger mid range but people are hyping Evil Ryu and she vanished. To be honest most haven't said much about Juri or Ken, nobody cares about Viper and Sakura is gone too. Nobody even cares about Akuma. I think Fuerte has that gimmick and that powerful Ex move. I'd like to see him in more play though to be sure.

makoto have a stronger mid range game ? i actually thought her mid range game sucks cause of her low mobility lol. her approach is exciting and hype like furete because she forces opponents to commit to a read, and she will die trying unlike furete vortex which is much safer, and her ridiculous damage output is much easier than eryu to do, and have a better corner carry combo where she can excel in her rush down game even more. ya at one point she was considered better than eryu but that's only because of unfamiliarity of matchups since sako doesn't stick to one char.

people forget about ken mostly because they still thought of ken as mid tier in ae2012 without analyzing  the buffs he gotten in ultra and what the system changes did to previous top tiers, viper is cause she is too technical to perform consistently at high level, sakura though i am uncertain of where she is on the tier list, since there's not much information to go on unlike ken and viper lol. akuma players are just taking tokido's words blindly, i think tokido bitched about how weak he is in this version. personally he is still good, but not braindead anymore because of dwu. furete is the  next low tier hero haha for now in this version 

[The Big Daddy C-Master]

Feb 10, 2015 22:28:28 GMT -5 doomfanatiq said:

there's 3 reasons for less damaging combos in that situation when ken whiff dp on wake up.

1) the meters are better off using from cr mk > fb fadc combo to net 300+ damage, instead of 100+ only with cr mk > fb.

2) because of damage scaling, it is not worth doing 50 more damage for 428 damage with 2 meters when you can already land 373 meterless combo damage.

3) he would have saved the meters for defensive and offensive measures of dp fadc, or cr mk > fb, or even super since he would have had 3 meters and close to 4 from the 373 damage combos.

btw, i am curious what is the 452 damage combos with 2 meters as u mentioned ? i thought eryu can only go above 450 damage with 2 meters if he landed a jump in, in that specific situation when ken whiffed dp, eryu can do 452 damage starting with Cl hp ? 

I did the combo in my video:
Cl hp x mk axe x fadc cl hp x mk axe >cr mp xlk tatsu > dp.
He has an easier one which does 448.
I'm not getting your logic here that the meter is better served for other uses over the 452 damage in a *punish* situation where the damage is guaranteed, yet 4 bars on a guess for 370 is ok. I mean if they're open and obviously punishable why not do an extra 80-100 damage and extra stun and build one bar back. If I'm not mistaken he had more than 2 bars anyways.

Feb 10, 2015 22:28:28 GMT -5 doomfanatiq said:

i disagree, it is ok to get out footsies twice by ken cr mk> fb because at max range ken cannot net much damage, it is evident when you see momochi cr mk > fb fadc and cr mk again, doing nothing.
the defining moment was when sako woke up and bd under pressure after been thrown (BD was one of the best option in escaping the pressure without meters), and got hit by ken os St HK with 200 stun damage, which was my point, if he have not extended the meters to style on momochi and went for the practical 373 damage instead, he would have had meters to dp fadc on wake up on momochi's unsafe jump after been thrown. 

He was out footsied a lot.
He had more meter and he would have built one back. What's impractical about doing almost 50% damage vs about 37% damage. You're talking about 2 combos practically killing many characters vs 1 combo. I mean 3 bars and an ultra gives you 476 or 516, so why is 2 bars for 452 bad when you get one back?
He just gambled on the last part.

Feb 10, 2015 22:28:28 GMT -5 doomfanatiq said:

luffy likes to underrate rose, some pros like to jump on the bandwagon, daigo overrate his own chars. all those are just opinions at the end of the day. 

ibuki's vortex is harder, but it's much more viable than akuma's setups who require read now for dwu since it can be done on reaction.

well, daigo was comparing ryu to eryu firepower, basically daigo's opinion is that there's no point using ryu when u have a better version in eryu since eryu get much more damage from neutral game, and he have more threatening setups (divekicks) to get potential damage off a knockdown than ryu. 

of course, ryu have areas where he does better than eryu, such as the zoning game because of the buff in his fireballs speed. but end of the day, eryu have more tools and the end result is it is easier to win with eryu than ryu, though not by a large margin in my opinion.

They underrate because they don't want their character nerfed. They want to be more competitive. Ibuki doesn't have Akuma's tools. Ryu already did less damage than Evil Ryu in the past. He wasn't obsolete in 2011 and 2012 AE. I mean I could have used the argument why play Evil Ryu when you could play Akuma or Ryu then and I would have had a stronger case when Evil Ryu had 850 health and stun and just sucked, lol.

Feb 10, 2015 22:28:28 GMT -5 doomfanatiq said:

now that you mention divekicks, u know that divekicks can be done on reaction to counter dwu right lol. that's also the reason why dwu never impact eryu as much as ryu now that i think about it.

it is very unfair in my opinion to say that ryu doesn't have much flaw in mid range game.

1) that cr mk > fb is not a true blockstring,
2) sweep is one of the slowest recovery in game, and it doesn't net much damage, and dwu affect the potential damage after sweep, which impact the effectiveness of ryu's sweep by alot, unlike eryu who can throw out fb brainlessly on cr mk hit, ryu players actually have to think before cancelling.

there's no doubt his neutral game is good, that was why he was a solid char, but to say that he doesn't have any flaws is just pure bias because i believe there are flaws in everything, the debate should be whether the good outweigh the bad.

Evil Ryu's divekick doesn't have much height restriction so that's dodgy at best.
My point is that Ryu's game is super solid with no real holes in it, he's just the all around balanced character in SF4. No other shoto has cr mk >fireball. Ken doesn't and his cr mk starts up in 4 frames. Would you like if Evil Ryu had a 4 frame cr mk? That's not a specific weakness it's more of something that Evil Ryu has. That's like saying not having an air fireball is a weakness.

Feb 10, 2015 22:28:28 GMT -5 doomfanatiq said:

as for akuma vortex, i agree it is still potent, but because of dwu, akuma players really have to commit to a read on whether their opponents does dwu or not, which half the effectiveness of vortex by half 50/50, and on top of the 50% akuma have to choose his 3-4 options, which again decrease the probability of landing his read... just by simple math terms, u know that his vortex was impact alot....

the impact is comparable to eryu loss of UB/fakecrossups, but bearing in mind that akuma is more reliant on sweep to get his vortex going than eryu is on his corner setups...

i realised it's very hard to debate over the impact of dwu on ryu/eryu/akuma because we have been comparing the wrong things lol

let's try to compare apple to apple, ryu's sweep/neutral game to eryu and akumas sweep/neutral game, and let's compare eryu UB setups off throws and combos to ryu/akuma setups/vortex off throws and combos. that way you get the bigger picture of why ryu and akuma is impact more by dwu.

Akuma definitely got more mileage out of vortex than Evil Ryu or Ryu on ambiguous setups, but he's not bad without it and his sweep was low risk/high reward. I mean Akuma has the best set of tools in the game plus high mobility, damage, and easy combos. That's why I hate health balancing.
Evil Ryu had unblockables that lead into high damage and stun. 2 wrong guesses was death, that's why it was so strong.

Feb 10, 2015 22:28:28 GMT -5 doomfanatiq said:

instead of assuming, let's list the more 'ways' of combo into ultra.
ryu ultra 1
cr mk>ex fb> fadc ultra
dp fadc> ultra
corner ex tatsu> ultra
corner ex fb > ultra
jump MP > ultra
lp dp anti air> ultra

eryu ultra 2
cr mk>ex fb fadc > ultra

cr mk> fb fadc > ultra (sako did it with 2 meters, never seen from daigo i think)
dp fadc> ultra

corner ex tatsu> ultra

jump MP > ultra

lp dp anti air> ultra
raw anti air ultra


so did i miss any?

harder to deal with mid range game, what does that mean? and for ryu or eryu ?

I meant he got more ways to combo into ultra because of his buff, not more than Evil Ryu. I mean U1 is pretty much the same. But U2 they both have multiple ways to do it, but I like Evil Ryu's better.
Ryu's mid range game is more solid, but Evil Ryu's is more rewarding.

Feb 10, 2015 22:28:28 GMT -5 doomfanatiq said:

eryu never got much buffs except the health buff, and even that was reverted which was harsh in my opinion. he is without a doubt weaker, but the real question is, how much stronger are the rest of the chars in comparison to eryu? you can list a few examples in your opinions which i will analyse the changelog to see if there are any effective buffs or nerfs overall.


agreed on the nerf part and even daigo mentioned he thought capcom was harsh always nerfing chars whenever players did well (think he was mentioning bonchan sagat in that interview but cannot remember the details), but still i appreciate what capcom does because ultimately this is more balance than ae2012 

as for eryu, it takes a player of sako's level to truely shine with him, same as what luffy, daigo, xian, pr rog, justin wong, did with their respective mains. 

Agreed here. I mean I can post changelog stuff, but I'll do that a bit later. These posts are long enough.
The other characters were overall buffed in Ultra though, nobody outside of a few were nerfed so I'm still not seeing this meteoric rise.

Feb 10, 2015 22:28:28 GMT -5 doomfanatiq said:

his teleport is more situational than akuma's, sako used it 2 times vs momochi and he only got punished once, daigo used it more in the series but even then it's much more rare than akuma's. so i am uncertain if it's completely useless since there are times when sako and daigo did it under pressure. the possibility could be that it's only useful in certain matchups and that it's very risky for the rest.

as for ryu SP, it is 0 on block, neither plus nor minus frames. and it is very slow, can be hit out it from low pokes unlike ibuki's overhead and eryu hop kick. the trade off is bigger damage and good for combos when landing focus attacks, but ryu doesn't have a particular good range on his focus attacks too, just average.

cr mk, ryu is faster and better hurtbox(am pretty sure you meant hurtbox and not hitbox lol), eryu is better hitbox(longer), higher damage with meters and true blockstring. up for debate but ultimately depends on which you value higher, ease of use or damage.

st mk, no debate eryu is better cause faster

cr hp, no debate ryu is better

sweep, no debate ryu is better

health points, ryu better more solid

mobility, eryu better

potential damage combos, eryu higher damage, since ryu cannot do fadc combos into SP for higher damage.

there's more to add on but feel free to add in if i missed any for now. 

Teleport is used rarely so sometimes opponents just don't expect it and they won't punish it, but you can on reaction. Backdash is better. Solar plexus strike is great when you scare your opponent into blocking.
No doubt that Ryu has more solid normals. If Evil Ryu had them you'd see a real monster top tier then.

Feb 10, 2015 22:28:28 GMT -5 doomfanatiq said:

ya i agree ryu is a easier to use char, but it doesn't mean eryu is high risk at all, from a neutral game perspective, eryu cr mk > fb is alot safer than ryu's. but ryu's cr mk is safer than eryu(faster startup, less risks to get interrupt), and eryu's sweep is also safer than ryu's (less risk to get punished on block). 

in terms of combos, eryu is high risks, because his combos are harder to do than ryu's, but this make sense because he have a better reward as u mention lol. 

He's higher risk because he dies and gets stunned faster and he has slower pokes so he has to be more precise with his poking than Ryu. Evil Ryu has a certain range where characters just poke him out and he doesn't have a "go to" button he can just use to cover that space like Ryu can.
His sweep was horrible. It's decent now but still too slow to combo into. Ryu can combo into cr mk and sweep which is great for hit confirms. Evil Ryu has to have a counter hit to do that.

Feb 10, 2015 22:28:28 GMT -5 doomfanatiq said:

my point was, the match is inaccurate because of 2 points below.

1) short sets are not good indicator of matchups
2) it's a match that are filled with mistakes from both players dropping combos.

when you argued that demon is not as effective as i thought u said daigo only did it on 1 night(even though it was ft7 on 2 days lol and against top players), why would you not use that same logic on such a short set ? there's not much for us to go on a high level ryu vs eryu game to give a accurate assessment of who have the advantage on neutral game in my opinion. right now i am even uncertain of the matchup cause capcom keep changing the chars.

Wait which matchups was a bad set to use?

Feb 10, 2015 22:28:28 GMT -5 doomfanatiq said:

]the thing is, no pros in the right mind would continue to underrate their own chars if they managed to continue winning, xian said gen was high tier in ae2012 even though everyone thought he was a low tier hero. because there must be something in the char that allows them to win at high level. it would be unwise to rate eryu lowly in my opinion especially when they are doing well with the char. the only person who blatantly underrate their own char when winning is luffy lol

They do because they don't want Capcom nerfing them. Can't say I blame them.

Feb 10, 2015 22:28:28 GMT -5 doomfanatiq said:

there's no char loyalist in kof lol, people just jump to whatever char they feel fits the matchup and play them whatever, which is why there's less debate in kof13 because winning at all cost is justified. however in sf, u have char loyalist vs counter picks debate and generally more people concern with sf than kof which is why there's alot of biased fanboys i think 

Yea that and people just love the characters in SF and Marvel it's like they identify with them better or see themselves as those characters. I mean even Virtua Fighter or Doa, I just don't see this character hype "My character isn't the worst but not the best and he takes the most skill please don't nerf him!" mindset. Meh.

Feb 10, 2015 22:28:28 GMT -5 doomfanatiq said:

makoto have a stronger mid range game ? i actually thought her mid range game sucks cause of her low mobility lol. her approach is exciting and hype like furete because she forces opponents to commit to a read, and she will die trying unlike furete vortex which is much safer, and her ridiculous damage output is much easier than eryu to do, and have a better corner carry combo where she can excel in her rush down game even more. ya at one point she was considered better than eryu but that's only because of unfamiliarity of matchups since sako doesn't stick to one char.

I mean she can do more damage mid screen now and isn't corner dependent.
Makoto isn't a neutral monster. She's a "make you guess wrong and die" character, kind of like Takuma in Kof. That can be more dangerous than a neutral monster, but it depends on the game. Dudley is this way to. Less neutral but more mixup. Evil Ryu gets his damage from neutral and then resets the situation.

Feb 10, 2015 22:28:28 GMT -5 doomfanatiq said:

people forget about ken mostly because they still thought of ken as mid tier in ae2012 without analyzing  the buffs he gotten in ultra and what the system changes did to previous top tiers, viper is cause she is too technical to perform consistently at high level, sakura though i am uncertain of where she is on the tier list, since there's not much information to go on unlike ken and viper lol. akuma players are just taking tokido's words blindly, i think tokido bitched about how weak he is in this version. personally he is still good, but not braindead anymore because of dwu. furete is the  next low tier hero haha for now in this version 

Honestly I think it's just bandwagon hype and people all over the flavor of the month. Tier lists are ultimately just bandwagon jumping and popularity contests and I think matchup charts are much better.