Tom Brevoort on Versus or why DBZ sucks in Versus.

[JACK-2]

“Marvel Comics editor Tom Brevoort has an active web presence, and for years and years now he’s fielded questions from the denizens of various superhero “battle boards” where “who’d win in a fight” is the primary topic of debate. These dudes will get their dander up because, I dunno, let’s say Howard the Duck beat Batroc the Leaper in Issue #1, and Batroc the Leaper beat Unus the Untouchable in Issue #2, but Unus the Untouchable beat Howard the Duck in Issue #3. This, they claim, is basically impossible. Brevoort always replies that of course it’s not, because if it were, there’d be no professional sports. If the Yankees beat the Red Sox one day, and the Red Sox beat the Brewers the next day, no one bats an eyelash if the Brewers beat the Yankees on a third day. Stats and records can be predictive, but they’re not determinative of any given outcome.“

DBZ is the opposite of the bolded.

[The Big Daddy C-Master]

Feb 14, 2015 21:51:47 GMT -5 JACK-2 said:

“Marvel Comics editor Tom Brevoort has an active web presence, and for years and years now he’s fielded questions from the denizens of various superhero “battle boards” where “who’d win in a fight” is the primary topic of debate. These dudes will get their dander up because, I dunno, let’s say Howard the Duck beat Batroc the Leaper in Issue #1, and Batroc the Leaper beat Unus the Untouchable in Issue #2, but Unus the Untouchable beat Howard the Duck in Issue #3. This, they claim, is basically impossible. Brevoort always replies that of course it’s not, because if it were, there’d be no professional sports. If the Yankees beat the Red Sox one day, and the Red Sox beat the Brewers the next day, no one bats an eyelash if the Brewers beat the Yankees on a third day. Stats and records can be predictive, but they’re not determinative of any given outcome.“

DBZ is the opposite of the bolded.

DBZ often sucks withint itself, even thought it's very linear in terms of who can beat who.

[JACK-2]

I think most of the outcomes in versus matches in generally. Are oversimplified by tards overall. But, some series exacerbate this problem: DBZ especially. In Comics anyone can beat anyone given the right circumstances. Even if they have better stats, for example:



Vs




When compared to each other I'd say the stats are roughly the same. Batman is arguably older and therefore weaker in the first fight. But, his equipment and knowledge is much better than in the second [Since he's meeting Superman for the first time]. Therefore he "won" the first one despite losing the second.


Another example is that in the same animated movie. Batman got his butt whopped in a fist fight by the Mutant leader because he was still in his physical prime while Batman was way past his own. Fights are all about tipping the outcome to your favor in real life and in comics [Movies too]. While DBZ they just seem to be about "owning" the competition because they're "power-level's" are higher. DBZ is just a dumb series.

[The Big Daddy C-Master]

Well there are things like PIS and CIS we have to consider as well. Many characters get bumped up or down based on plot. Batman in the Justice League is notoriously bumped up to make him more useful while characters like the Flash and Martian Manhunter use very little of their powers 99% of the time for the sake of plot effectiveness.

The story also plays a role. One character could be weakened or distracted momentarily or something else.

Batman wouldn't beat Superman in a straight up forum fight without a severe power boost or some major prep work and we all realize that. The power gap is just too great. Now Superman vs Wonder Woman would be different because she could still beat him, even if the stat difference is in Superman's favor if you mildly changed the conditions.

DBZ fanboys will argue anything, even if in their own universe the character was clearly weaker. I've had people say that Cell was stronger than uninjured Gohan going all out. To me it's clear that Gohan was severely injured to make the story more dramatic. People don't get that the story comes first though and we don't debate story when we're doing these, just max character effectiveness.

[JACK-2]

Feb 15, 2015 3:42:41 GMT -5 The Big Daddy C-Master said:

Well there are things like PIS and CIS we have to consider as well. Many characters get bumped up or down based on plot. Batman in the Justice League is notoriously bumped up to make him more useful while characters like the Flash and Martian Manhunter use very little of their powers 99% of the time for the sake of plot effectiveness.

The story also plays a role. One character could be weakened or distracted momentarily or something else.

Batman wouldn't beat Superman in a straight up forum fight without a severe power boost or some major prep work and we all realize that. The power gap is just too great. Now Superman vs Wonder Woman would be different because she could still beat him, even if the stat difference is in Superman's favor if you mildly changed the conditions.

DBZ fanboys will argue anything, even if in their own universe the character was clearly weaker. I've had people say that Cell was stronger than uninjured Gohan going all out. To me it's clear that Gohan was severely injured to make the story more dramatic. People don't get that the story comes first though and we don't debate story when we're doing these, just max character effectiveness.

Well, CIS is that characters are in-character. So, Superman wouldn't just do a giant blast of heat vision and vaperize him. Technically, he could just do cold breath and immobilize him, but that would be boring. It's a case of plot determining the outcome. Brevoort mentions it as well:


There’s absolutely nothing wrong with Battle Boards. Talking about comics and arguing about the abilities of the various characters is one of the fun things that people enjoy about reading the books. I don’t have problem one with them.

What I have said, many times, is that I’m not going to get into any Battle Boards-style questions in this forum.

For one thing, they’re just not of great interest to me after all this time. (The real answer to any Battle Board conflict is “Whatever serves the story better.”)

But really, after all of this time, I know exactly how this goes. On Battle Boards forums, nobody is ever convinced of anything. It’s exceedingly rare for anybody to change their position.

So one person comes to me for a ruling on some scenario, and I give them my answer. If they dislike it, they then spend the next couple of days writing post after post disputing it. I’ve got a few of these in my stack of unanswered questions right now.

But if they do like it—if it agrees with their position—then they run back to the Battle Board and proudly convey it to the people they’re arguing with (typically with a bit of “suck it” attitude, because they’ve been proven right.) And then all of those people descend on this forum like locusts, also disputing it, but being even uglier and more insulting and more derogatory in how they use it.

Life is too short. That’s not why I have this forum.

So, by all means, engage in those conversations! Enjoy them and have all the fun in the world. Good on you!

Just not here.




Stan lee too:



Alot of times characters won't use their best abilities because the fight would be boring. Other times the characters use different equipment or Anti-superpower type equipment to win. Like Batman. I'm not sure if Batman is more useful then he could be because he's generally outsmarted his opponents. But, people tend to over exaggerate how useful his intelligence would be.

I think I made the right choice dropping versus tbh.

[The Big Daddy C-Master]

Feb 15, 2015 3:57:05 GMT -5 JACK-2 said:

Feb 15, 2015 3:42:41 GMT -5 The Big Daddy C-Master said:

Well there are things like PIS and CIS we have to consider as well. Many characters get bumped up or down based on plot. Batman in the Justice League is notoriously bumped up to make him more useful while characters like the Flash and Martian Manhunter use very little of their powers 99% of the time for the sake of plot effectiveness.

The story also plays a role. One character could be weakened or distracted momentarily or something else.

Batman wouldn't beat Superman in a straight up forum fight without a severe power boost or some major prep work and we all realize that. The power gap is just too great. Now Superman vs Wonder Woman would be different because she could still beat him, even if the stat difference is in Superman's favor if you mildly changed the conditions.

DBZ fanboys will argue anything, even if in their own universe the character was clearly weaker. I've had people say that Cell was stronger than uninjured Gohan going all out. To me it's clear that Gohan was severely injured to make the story more dramatic. People don't get that the story comes first though and we don't debate story when we're doing these, just max character effectiveness.

Well, CIS is that characters are in-character. So, Superman wouldn't just do a giant blast of heat vision and vaperize him. Technically, he could just do cold breath and immobilize him, but that would be boring. It's a case of plot determining the outcome. Brevoort mentions it as well:


There’s absolutely nothing wrong with Battle Boards. Talking about comics and arguing about the abilities of the various characters is one of the fun things that people enjoy about reading the books. I don’t have problem one with them.

What I have said, many times, is that I’m not going to get into any Battle Boards-style questions in this forum.

For one thing, they’re just not of great interest to me after all this time. (The real answer to any Battle Board conflict is “Whatever serves the story better.”)

But really, after all of this time, I know exactly how this goes. On Battle Boards forums, nobody is ever convinced of anything. It’s exceedingly rare for anybody to change their position.

So one person comes to me for a ruling on some scenario, and I give them my answer. If they dislike it, they then spend the next couple of days writing post after post disputing it. I’ve got a few of these in my stack of unanswered questions right now.

But if they do like it—if it agrees with their position—then they run back to the Battle Board and proudly convey it to the people they’re arguing with (typically with a bit of “suck it” attitude, because they’ve been proven right.) And then all of those people descend on this forum like locusts, also disputing it, but being even uglier and more insulting and more derogatory in how they use it.

Life is too short. That’s not why I have this forum.

So, by all means, engage in those conversations! Enjoy them and have all the fun in the world. Good on you!

Just not here.




Stan lee too:



Alot of times characters won't use their best abilities because the fight would be boring. Other times the characters use different equipment or Anti-superpower type equipment to win. Like Batman. I'm not sure if Batman is more useful then he could be because he's generally outsmarted his opponents. But, people tend to over exaggerate how useful his intelligence would be.

I think I made the right choice dropping versus tbh.

That's my point. Plot convenience. Flash for instance would still be tremendously overpowered even without killing. He could just stun or immobolize 99% of characters without ever killing them (which he could do if it were necessary).

People are biased and they just want to take their sides anyways. There's no debate there.

[JACK-2]

Let's not forget about bad physics. Like when people try to amp feats they like by using physics. I remember some people tried to claim Frieza could destroy a universe by scaling from the destruction of Planet Vegeta. These are the same people that will claim DBZ characters "compress" their explosions. So, basically they create implosions lol.

Glad I'm done.

[The Big Daddy C-Master]

Feb 15, 2015 4:12:56 GMT -5 JACK-2 said:

Let's not forget about bad physics. Like when people try to amp feats they like by using physics. I remember some people tried to claim Frieza could destroy a universe by scaling from the destruction of Planet Vegeta. These are the same people that will claim DBZ characters "compress" their explosions. So, basically they create implosions lol.

Glad I'm done.

DBZ is full of horrible scaling, but they don't want others to scale like YYH.

I'm guessing you had a bad experience? You always say you're done but you're like a beaten housewife, lol. You'll always go back.

[JACK-2]

No, I think I'm done for real. I can argue versus on my own since I know I'm not a fanboy and don't need a second opinion. I stuck around because I liked pitting fictional characters against each other. I can watch screw attack for that or just make up my own versus and argue with myself [lol]. Sick and tired of fanboys tbh and they eat up too much of my time. I'm ready to let go.

[The Big Daddy C-Master]

Feb 15, 2015 4:27:53 GMT -5 JACK-2 said:

No, I think I'm done for real. I can argue versus on my own since I know I'm not a fanboy and don't need a second opinion. I stuck around because I liked pitting fictional characters against each other. I can watch screw attack for that or just make up my own versus and argue with myself [lol]. Sick and tired of fanboys tbh and they eat up too much of my time. I'm ready to let go.

You just pointed out another reason why people like these large forum debates. It's all about groupthink. "I can get more people to agree with me, therefore I'm correct". People who can debate on their own don't need this. Not to mention people will agree with members because they're more liked and popular. It saddens me when otherwise smart people do this. That said you can be smart and weak minded.

I even talked to another guy who's smart. I show other people discussion threads here to get them interested. He always complains about Gamefaqs, but I showed him my site and discussions and he says "Well I don't post there because it isn't active enough, but I guess a tradeoff is dealing with morons."

I mean who cares if you get a response 5 minutes later if it's just stupid bullshit. I'd rather wait 3 hours and get a better thought out response. Even if I disagree.

Then you just get dragged into some long flamewar or "debate" and like you said, quoting that garbage takes forever and it's too time consuming. Hence why I avoid it.

[JACK-2]

Feb 15, 2015 4:41:17 GMT -5 The Big Daddy C-Master said:

You just pointed out another reason why people like these large forum debates. It's all about groupthink. "I can get more people to agree with me, therefore I'm correct". People who can debate on their own don't need this. Not to mention people will agree with members because they're more liked and popular. It saddens me when otherwise smart people do this. That said you can be smart and weak minded.

I even talked to another guy who's smart. I show other people discussion threads here to get them interested. He always complains about Gamefaqs, but I showed him my site and discussions and he says "Well I don't post there because it isn't active enough, but I guess a tradeoff is dealing with morons."

I mean who cares if you get a response 5 minutes later if it's just stupid bullshit. I'd rather wait 3 hours and get a better thought out response. Even if I disagree.

Then you just get dragged into some long flamewar or "debate" and like you said, quoting that garbage takes forever and it's too time consuming. Hence why I avoid it.

You know what you're right. The wanting to fit in thing is a big draw and also a big weakness. I think that's why I go to that shitty forum I post in instead of staying here. The popularity and hype got to me.

A deeper discussion even if it's slower is much better than one filled with idiots even if it is "hyped". I think an ivory tower approach is much better.

[The Big Daddy C-Master]

Feb 15, 2015 4:47:20 GMT -5 JACK-2 said:

Feb 15, 2015 4:41:17 GMT -5 The Big Daddy C-Master said:

You just pointed out another reason why people like these large forum debates. It's all about groupthink. "I can get more people to agree with me, therefore I'm correct". People who can debate on their own don't need this. Not to mention people will agree with members because they're more liked and popular. It saddens me when otherwise smart people do this. That said you can be smart and weak minded.

I even talked to another guy who's smart. I show other people discussion threads here to get them interested. He always complains about Gamefaqs, but I showed him my site and discussions and he says "Well I don't post there because it isn't active enough, but I guess a tradeoff is dealing with morons."

I mean who cares if you get a response 5 minutes later if it's just stupid bullshit. I'd rather wait 3 hours and get a better thought out response. Even if I disagree.

Then you just get dragged into some long flamewar or "debate" and like you said, quoting that garbage takes forever and it's too time consuming. Hence why I avoid it.

You know what you're right. The wanting to fit in thing is a big draw and also a big weakness. I think that's why I go to that shitty forum I post in instead of staying here. The popularity and hype got to me.

A deeper discussion even if it's slower is much better than one filled with idiots even if it is "hyped". I think an ivory tower approach is much better.

Cast away your sinful ways and see the truth!!!!

And yes I don't care if it's aloof and misanthropic, it's just the truth. It's the same logic with Capcom fighters. "Street Fighter 4 sucks but I play it because everyone else does."

Then they wonder why things don't progress. It's just sad.

Hype is often bad.

[JACK-2]

I don't think it's misanthropic rather it's the truth. I've never seen anything wrong with elitism. I don't hate people, but they are ignorant.

[The Big Daddy C-Master]

Feb 15, 2015 5:04:34 GMT -5 JACK-2 said:

I don't think it's misanthropic rather it's the truth. I've never seen anything wrong with elitism. I don't hate people, but they are ignorant.

Pretty much. But groupthink is so rewarded in this society that going against it is a sin. You can't even "be happy" unless you're out with the masses. Pretty sad.

No two people are equal. Another thing.

Speaking of which, have you seen Daria? I'm watching through it now and it's interesting. I need to do a review on it.

[JACK-2]

Feb 15, 2015 5:20:51 GMT -5 The Big Daddy C-Master said:

Pretty much. But groupthink is so rewarded in this society that going against it is a sin. You can't even "be happy" unless you're out with the masses. Pretty sad.

No two people are equal. Another thing.

Speaking of which, have you seen Daria? I'm watching through it now and it's interesting. I need to do a review on it.

Well, elites group together too. But, it's not "groupthink" since they tend to be more independent. Ironically, this country was funded by and fueled on individualism versus most nations in the world which is why it became so rich and powerful. No, I haven't seen daria, but I've heard of it.

[The Big Daddy C-Master]

Feb 15, 2015 5:26:14 GMT -5 JACK-2 said:

Feb 15, 2015 5:20:51 GMT -5 The Big Daddy C-Master said:

Pretty much. But groupthink is so rewarded in this society that going against it is a sin. You can't even "be happy" unless you're out with the masses. Pretty sad.

No two people are equal. Another thing.

Speaking of which, have you seen Daria? I'm watching through it now and it's interesting. I need to do a review on it.

Well, elites group together too. But, it's not "groupthink" since they tend to be more independent. Ironically, this country was funded by and fueled on individualism versus most nations in the world which is why it became so rich and powerful. No, I haven't seen daria, but I've heard of it.

Yea people tend to hang around others like themselves. It's nothing wrong and encouraged to be around others who are where you are or where you want to be. Most people want to hang around the dumb which just limits them.

This groupthink is why our country is failing. Just because a lot of people believe in something dumb doesn't make it smart.

I'll do a review on it. It talks about people who are on the outside looking in and explores it. You might want to check it out.

[JACK-2]

So, when did you quit versus?

[The Big Daddy C-Master]

Feb 15, 2015 17:21:11 GMT -5 JACK-2 said:

So, when did you quit versus?

I was most active in 05 and a bit in 06. I kind of came and went intermittently after that. It gets old and repetitive. I finished KMC years ago though after that dumb mangina incident with Ushgarak and the corrupt mods there.

[JACK-2]

Damn, I kept going on and on. I'm like an addict.

[The Big Daddy C-Master]

Feb 15, 2015 17:56:35 GMT -5 JACK-2 said:

Damn, I kept going on and on. I'm like an addict.

Just fill your time with something else besides forum posting if you feel that urge. You can post here. Play games. Work on something. Exercise. Watch a movie. Screw a chick. Anything but post at that site lol.

[JACK-2]

Right, now I'm working on becoming mathematician. So, I should focus on that.

[The Big Daddy C-Master]

Really? Didn't know you were a math nut. How long?

[JACK-2]

Just recently, Math has always been the only subject I ever had problems with. I always passed every other subject and never bothered to study. But, Math was always that one subject I sucked at. Because I had to actually try.

[The Big Daddy C-Master]

It can be fun once you learn it though right?

[JACK-2]

Feb 15, 2015 18:19:02 GMT -5 The Big Daddy C-Master said:

It can be fun once you learn it though right?

I love how hard it is. The challenge is what makes it fun.

[The Big Daddy C-Master]

Feb 15, 2015 18:21:22 GMT -5 JACK-2 said:

Feb 15, 2015 18:19:02 GMT -5 The Big Daddy C-Master said:

It can be fun once you learn it though right?

I love how hard it is. The challenge is what makes it fun.

What's your favorite kind of math?

[JACK-2]

I can do geometry pretty well

[The Big Daddy C-Master]

Feb 15, 2015 18:44:25 GMT -5 JACK-2 said:

I can do geometry pretty well

You'd be an amazing artist.

[JACK-2]

I should start drawing again. I used to draw anime back in High-school. These days though I've been following the work of Jack Kirby.

[The Big Daddy C-Master]

Feb 16, 2015 5:04:11 GMT -5 JACK-2 said:

I should start drawing again. I used to draw anime back in High-school. These days though I've been following the work of Jack Kirby.

I remember when I was big on drawing DBZ and you were the shit if you could do that. I had everybody copying me too.