Virtua Fighter Thread.

[The Big Daddy C-Master]

Making this thread to discuss Virtua Fighter. We have loosely in other threads but lets put it here.

I want to pick Spiffy's brain on this.

[spliffybaz]

Haha would you like to know how imbalanced the tiers are in Final Showdown, or why after almost 4 years most players still can't use the games basic movement system (evade dash cancels, evade crouch dash cancels)? I should be able to cover the basics like tiers and bad match ups and despite what some people claim there are bad mu's in VF just like any other fighter. Some characters get much more damage from the same frame class moves as others, while taking less damage for their mistakes at the same disadvantage, so the risk reward for high tiers is better than "E tier" characters for example. SF5 is taking the VF5FS approach but has went even further overboard with the simplifying and has made things even easier than the current VF, which outside of DOA I never thought was possible. Many technical things still exist in VF, but many things have been removed and others simplified "in a quest to gain a new younger audience". Sadly for SEGA that didn't work out as the new players didn't stick and the few that did aren't on the same level as series veterans. It did alienate a lot of the veterans and they dropped the game and moved onto others, while the newer players that previously weren't interested in the franchise also dropped the game. The game itself is fairly easy to pick up and you can do massive damage very easily, but it's been out over 3 years and strong VF players would likely demoralize new comers despite the easier mechanics, just like SF4 vets vs someone who just started playing USF4 a few months ago. VF5FS has some similarities to what they are doing to SF5 and VF5FS isn't considered to be one of the better VF games, many don't like the massive damage, simpler execution, removal of many moves and tech, like there was a large reduction in moves form the entire cast, while execution and damage were both made easier and higher. That might sound familiar now right *cough SF5*.

I am not sure how familiar you are with all the of the Japanese terms like nitaku, reverse nitaku, abare, okizeme, and the like, but all of those are critical to VF. Learning frame data is a must and it absolutely holds up offline (online frame data does not hold up and changes the experience into a fraudulent one and can build bad habits). There are no invincible moves in VF so if you are +5 and use a 14f mid nothing can beat it out except a sabaki and only a few characters posses them. Sabaki's counter linear single limbed attacks from disadvantage and work from up to -9. Double limbed attacks and circulars beat sabaki's, so do moves like headbutts, bodychecks (like Yun or Karins shoulder moves in SF) and kickflips also beat sabakis. At -10 you are in a guaranteed throw attempt situation, at -12 and up you are in a guaranteed punish situation, although most players punish skills are absolute trash (because of online play). It is a really fast paced high damage game where you're gonna need to be very good at active and advanced defense as one mistake can cost you half your life bar from even an unskilled player. Some characters have very hard to do combos that require stance checking and 1 frame kills, or evade dash cancels to work. But most of those combos only offer slightly more damage for their difficulty and become a higher skill thing and somewhat impractical in serious play unless your skills are really high level. Just about anyone can do 40% to 50% life bar combos from a counter hit launcher, that's how simplified the game is. Strong players are counting frames always and measuring whether or not someone will abare with a launcher or simply use one in nitaku situations to score massive damage. The level of mind games in VF is very high and Fuudo and Itazan beast the west in VF much like the do in SF, although they are VF players first and now SF players cause $$$.

[The Big Daddy C-Master]

Nov 10, 2015 2:41:02 GMT -5 spliffybaz said:

Haha would you like to know how imbalanced the tiers are in Final Showdown, or why after almost 4 years most players still can't use the games basic movement system (evade dash cancels, evade crouch dash cancels)? I should be able to cover the basics like tiers and bad match ups and despite what some people claim there are bad mu's in VF just like any other fighter. Some characters get much more damage from the same frame class moves as others, while taking less damage for their mistakes at the same disadvantage, so the risk reward for high tiers is better than "E tier" characters for example. SF5 is taking the VF5FS approach but has went even further overboard with the simplifying and has made things even easier than the current VF, which outside of DOA I never thought was possible. Many technical things still exist in VF, but many things have been removed and others simplified "in a quest to gain a new younger audience". Sadly for SEGA that didn't work out as the new players didn't stick and the few that did aren't on the same level as series veterans. It did alienate a lot of the veterans and they dropped the game and moved onto others, while the newer players that previously weren't interested in the franchise also dropped the game. The game itself is fairly easy to pick up and you can do massive damage very easily, but it's been out over 3 years and strong VF players would likely demoralize new comers despite the easier mechanics, just like SF4 vets vs someone who just started playing USF4 a few months ago. VF5FS has some similarities to what they are doing to SF5 and VF5FS isn't considered to be one of the better VF games, many don't like the massive damage, simpler execution, removal of many moves and tech, like there was a large reduction in moves form the entire cast, while execution and damage were both made easier and higher. That might sound familiar now right *cough SF5*.

I am not sure how familiar you are with all the of the Japanese terms like nitaku, reverse nitaku, abare, okizeme, and the like, but all of those are critical to VF. Learning frame data is a must and it absolutely holds up offline (online frame data does not hold up and changes the experience into a fraudulent one and can build bad habits). There are no invincible moves in VF so if you are +5 and use a 14f mid nothing can beat it out except a sabaki and only a few characters posses them. Sabaki's counter linear single limbed attacks from disadvantage and work from up to -9. Double limbed attacks and circulars beat sabaki's, so do moves like headbutts, bodychecks (like Yun or Karins shoulder moves in SF) and kickflips also beat sabakis. At -10 you are in a guaranteed throw attempt situation, at -12 and up you are in a guaranteed punish situation, although most players punish skills are absolute trash (because of online play). It is a really fast paced high damage game where you're gonna need to be very good at active and advanced defense as one mistake can cost you half your life bar from even an unskilled player. Some characters have very hard to do combos that require stance checking and 1 frame kills, or evade dash cancels to work. But most of those combos only offer slightly more damage for their difficulty and become a higher skill thing and somewhat impractical in serious play unless your skills are really high level. Just about anyone can do 40% to 50% life bar combos from a counter hit launcher, that's how simplified the game is. Strong players are counting frames always and measuring whether or not someone will abare with a launcher or simply use one in nitaku situations to score massive damage. The level of mind games in VF is very high and Fuudo and Itazan beast the west in VF much like the do in SF, although they are VF players first and now SF players cause $$$.

Well every game has tiers, but VF is generally known for being well balanced.  How is the tier disparity compared to something like Marvel vs Capcom 3?  There are no Virgils right?

Could you start with the movement system.  I want to learn about that first.

[spliffybaz]

It is a dash based movement system so you need to get your timing down to step. Evade cancels are advanced movement and are basically the hardest thing to learn from an execution stand point. So evade dash cancel is 866G or 266G (guard) which cancels your evade into a blocking state, ECDC or evade crouch dash cancel is done by hitting 833G or 233G. It cancels your evade into a crouching guard hat can go under highs or crouch delayed throws. A throw will always beat every evade option whether its cancelled or not, you can buffer in a throw escape into your evade cancels too if your skills are high enough to allow it. There is also forward and back dashing into cancels, either crouch cancel or normal evade cancels which level you standing on guard, no crouch. I personally only ever use evade crouch cancels and in my replays with Pai for example I use the Japanese standard dash cancel setups, only myself and Kamais a friend and somewhat local tournament player, play Pai in VF5FS at that level in North America (not japanese pai levels, but we can do the combos and cancel setups etc, jp's still have about 3 years of having the game before us along with fuudo tier players everywhere and he isn't even one of the strongest VF players in Japan). So like I do 668336P+G to do a 6 input throw with Pai which is common in japan, but i'm the only one in america doing it -_- ... I do a forward dash immediately cancelled into an ECDC (evade crouch dash cancel) into Pai's while rising throw. You can do 8336P+G if you're close and don't need to dash in first, or 2336P+G for the down evade cancel. also 8334P+G or 2334P+G gives her a stagger throw in case they sit and hold lazy throw escape forward. LTE or Lazy Throw Escape is new to FS and was added in at VF5R but that was never released in the west. Instead of SF or older VF throw escapes where you need to time your throw escape to beat an opponents throw, you simply stand and hold Block & Guard + a Direction and if you are holding a direction like forward and the opponent tries to throw you with a forward throw then u escape it. You can do 44233G or 44833G or sub in normal 66 cancels that aren't the crouch dash version like 66866G etc for movement and it applies to back dashes as well. You can also attack from evade crouch cancels or dash cancels depending on your characters attack options. Like with Pai japanese players and I do 833P+K so i've got a counter hit launcher coming out of my evade cancel. I sacrifice the guard option making it an offensive move instead, I can get CH for this but it's a gamble you take based on reads etc. So many things can be done with the movement system but 98% of western VF players cannot cancel their evades after 3+ years of only playing VF, it's really pitiful. Of coarse those guys think they don't need to cancel but they also dodge money matches and aren't the top players either so whatever with the failed evade spammers.

Maybe in year one or so it's fine not to cancel your evades ( I didn't for a while), but the game has been out too long for dedicated players not to be doing the basic movement, it's even in the in game tutorial.

[The Big Daddy C-Master]

Nov 10, 2015 4:08:54 GMT -5 spliffybaz said:

It is a dash based movement system so you need to get your timing down to step. Evade cancels are advanced movement and are basically the hardest thing to learn from an execution stand point. So evade dash cancel is 866G or 266G (guard) which cancels your evade into a blocking state, ECDC or evade crouch dash cancel is done by hitting 833G or 233G. It cancels your evade into a crouching guard hat can go under highs or crouch delayed throws. A throw will always beat every evade option whether its cancelled or not, you can buffer in a throw escape into your evade cancels too if your skills are high enough to allow it. There is also forward and back dashing into cancels, either crouch cancel or normal evade cancels which level you standing on guard, no crouch. I personally only ever use evade crouch cancels and in my replays with Pai for example I use the Japanese standard dash cancel setups, only myself and Kamais a friend and somewhat local tournament player, play Pai in VF5FS at that level in North America (not japanese pai levels, but we can do the combos and cancel setups etc, jp's still have about 3 years of having the game before us along with fuudo tier players everywhere and he isn't even one of the strongest VF players in Japan). So like I do 668336P+G to do a 6 input throw with Pai which is common in japan, but i'm the only one in america doing it -_- ... I do a forward dash immediately cancelled into an ECDC (evade crouch dash cancel) into Pai's while rising throw. You can do 8336P+G if you're close and don't need to dash in first, or 2336P+G for the down evade cancel. also 8334P+G or 2334P+G gives her a stagger throw in case they sit and hold lazy throw escape forward. LTE or Lazy Throw Escape is new to FS and was added in at VF5R but that was never released in the west. Instead of SF or older VF throw escapes where you need to time your throw escape to beat an opponents throw, you simply stand and hold Block & Guard + a Direction and if you are holding a direction like forward and the opponent tries to throw you with a forward throw then u escape it. You can do 44233G or 44833G or sub in normal 66 cancels that aren't the crouch dash version like 66866G etc for movement and it applies to back dashes as well. You can also attack from evade crouch cancels or dash cancels depending on your characters attack options. Like with Pai japanese players and I do 833P+K so i've got a counter hit launcher coming out of my evade cancel. I sacrifice the guard option making it an offensive move instead, I can get CH for this but it's a gamble you take based on reads etc. So many things can be done with the movement system but 98% of western VF players cannot cancel their evades after 3+ years of only playing VF, it's really pitiful. Of coarse those guys think they don't need to cancel but they also dodge money matches and aren't the top players either so whatever with the failed evade spammers.

Maybe in year one or so it's fine not to cancel your evades ( I didn't for a while), but the game has been out too long for dedicated players not to be doing the basic movement, it's even in the in game tutorial.

Hey could you make your newer points in bullets or numbers with a space between them. I want to keep it for note taking.

Kind of like:

1.

2.

3.

etc.

Thanks bro.


With evades are you saying it's 866. Is that (facing right) up back, forward, forward? Or am I wrong?

[spliffybaz]

Sure after this post I can number and space them out.
So evade dash cancels are preferable to evade cancels imho, but both are useful. It is just tapping up or down which evades and then tapping down forward, down forward + guard quickly to cancel the evade. Generally all inputs are assumed to be from 1P side as doing 2P side inputs is odd an not the standard for VF when describing moves on forums. So up or down to evade + forward forward guard is a standard evade dash cancel, without the crouch (I rarely ever use non crouch cancels myself).

or Player one side

1. EDC 866 or 266 + Guard

2. ECDC 833 or 233 + Guard


You can forward dash (66) or backdash (44) into the above cancels as well for spacing or closing the gap more safely.

[The Big Daddy C-Master]

Nov 10, 2015 14:01:22 GMT -5 spliffybaz said:

Sure after this post I can number and space them out.
So evade dash cancels are preferable to evade cancels imho, but both are useful. It is just tapping up or down which evades and then tapping down forward, down forward + guard quickly to cancel the evade. Generally all inputs are assumed to be from 1P side as doing 2P side inputs is odd an not the standard for VF when describing moves on forums. So up or down to evade + forward forward guard is a standard evade dash cancel, without the crouch (I rarely ever use non crouch cancels myself).

Right because 8 is *up* on the numpad, doi.

Now does cancelling this way give you better recovery, positioning, or both? What makes the crouch cancel better?

[spliffybaz]

You can actually debate with VF players which is better but the standard that is more used by the Japanese is the crouch cancels, different moves can be used from the a buffered cancel. So while rising throws is an option some characters get and wont work from an evade cancel because there is no crouch and thus no rising animation. There are many while rising attacks in the game that can be buffered into ECDC. 866 can have 66K or 66P type moves easily buffered from it, just use a Kick or punch instead of the guard button, but you sacrifice defense making it an offensive attack based cancel. Crouch Cancels go under high circulars if done at certain levels of minor disadvantage or will go under all high circulars from nuetral situations and many of the games attacks are high (mids are the best attacks but often come with more serious disadvantage on block). So crouching under attacks causing them to whiff and leaving an opponent in recovery frames or dead frame situations for a small time is useful for obvious reasons. If you evade cancel with 866 it doesn't crouch and will merely block the high circular or mid attack given the situation it's used in and leave you at advantage from defending the move, unless it's a string or a + on block move. But then we're getting into strings which are character specific and so are frames & disadvantage on certain moves etc. Both cancels are very good though and should be used as you see fit and can have attacks or throws buffered into them sacrificing the guard if you choose to make it an offensive move instead of a defensive tech. I could just show you various replays on youtube where it's used in matches if you are wondering how it works out in gameplay.

and yeah as for the numbers and how they correspond to a Dpad or arcade stick directions it's as follows.

8 (up)

2 (down)

6 (forward)

4 (back)

3 (down forward)

1 (down back)

9 (up forward)

7 (up back)

[The Big Daddy C-Master]

Nov 10, 2015 14:15:12 GMT -5 spliffybaz said:

You can actually debate with VF players which is better but the standard that is more used by the Japanese is the crouch cancels, different moves can be used from the a buffered cancel. So while rising throws is an option some characters get and wont work from an evade cancel because there is no crouch and thus no rising animation. There are many while rising attacks in the game that can be buffered into ECDC. 866 can have 66K or 66P type moves easily buffered from it, just use a Kick or punch instead of the guard button, but you sacrifice defense making it an offensive attack based cancel. Crouch Cancels go under high circulars if done at certain levels of minor disadvantage or will go under all high circulars from nuetral situations and many of the games attacks are high (mids are the best attacks but often come with more serious disadvantage on block). So crouching under attacks causing them to whiff and leaving an opponent in recovery frames or dead frame situations for a small time is useful for obvious reasons. If you evade cancel with 866 it doesn't crouch and will merely block the high circular or mid attack given the situation it's used in and leave you at advantage from defending the move, unless it's a string or a + on block move. But then we're getting into strings which are character specific and so are frames & disadvantage on certain moves etc. Both cancels are very good though and should be used as you see fit and can have attacks or throws buffered into them sacrificing the guard if you choose to make it an offensive move instead of a defensive tech. I could just show you various replays on youtube where it's used in matches if you are wondering how it works out in gameplay.

and yeah as for the numbers and how they correspond to a Dpad or arcade stick directions it's as follows.

8 (up)

2 (down)

6 (forward)

4 (back)

3 (down forward)

1 (down back)

9 (up forward)

7 (up back)

I'm familiar from the notation with Kof, I was just thinking of it wrong.

So the advantage of a crouch cancel is that they can get under highs? Do people use highs the most then?

[spliffybaz]

So mids are the best attacks but not many mids are + on block, highs are what start most strings in VF5FS and most of the games attacks are highs. Sarah in VF5FS is like 90% linear high attacks and sabaki's destroy her because of this, she is really terrible and a nerfed down shell of her former VF4 self. High Jab is + on block and is a standard tool to play VF, gain your plus frame advantage from a single stand jab then try a tick throw, or a mid attack for a CH. You want to be careful with high attacks because fuzzy guarding and ECDC beat them (so do lows), but they are the most numerous tool in VF and basically all strings contain high attacks in them. EX highs counter hit lows, or low crush if you prefer that term and serve as a pseudo mid attack as it's a high but beats lows because EX properties. Lows like 2P get under highs from disadvantage, but EX highs will beat them out if used from advantage or in strings where a player tries to mash 2P to stuff your stings. Sarah of coarse has like no EX highs and is free to Aoi and Taka, also struggles vs Vane and every high tier.

[The Big Daddy C-Master]

Nov 10, 2015 15:08:57 GMT -5 spliffybaz said:

So mids are the best attacks but not many mids are + on block, highs are what start most strings in VF5FS and most of the games attacks are highs. Sarah in VF5FS is like 90% linear high attacks and sabaki's destroy her because of this, she is really terrible and a nerfed down shell of her former VF4 self. High Jab is + on block and is a standard tool to play VF, gain your plus frame advantage from a single stand jab then try a tick throw, or a mid attack for a CH. You want to be careful with high attacks because fuzzy guarding and ECDC beat them (so do lows), but they are the most numerous tool in VF and basically all strings contain high attacks in them. EX highs counter hit lows, or low crush if you prefer that term and serve as a pseudo mid attack as it's a high but beats lows because EX properties. Lows like 2P get under highs from disadvantage, but EX highs will beat them out if used from advantage or in strings where a player tries to mash 2P to stuff your stings. Sarah of coarse has like no EX highs and is free to Aoi and Taka, also struggles vs Vane and every high tier.

So what is the tier list as of now in this game?

[spliffybaz]

A Japanese Blaze player released his own tier list which isn't very accurate imho as he demoted Jacky from SS tier to A tier and Jacky can do over 220 damage from a safe -2 on block 14f poke given a wall is nearby and 220 is full life bar.

SS tier: Akira Jacky
S Tier: Taka, Brad Lion

This was the original tier list from Japan and the game itself is unchanged and Jacky is still insane and SS tier despite the blaze players Arcadia rankings, but I will link you his tier list which is basically the same outside of Jacky being demoted which is not accurate and nobody in the west agrees with that guy about absurd FS Jacky. Current list is below.


SS: Akira
S: Taka, Lion, Brad
A: Jacky, Jean, Vanessa
B: Goh, Shun, Wolf

(Large Gap)

C: Sarah, Kage, Lau
D: El Blaze, Jeffry
E: Aoi, Pai, Lei-Fei, Eileen

[The Big Daddy C-Master]

Nov 10, 2015 16:48:15 GMT -5 spliffybaz said:

A Japanese Blaze player released his own tier list which isn't very accurate imho as he demoted Jacky from SS tier to A tier and Jacky can do over 220 damage from a safe -2 on block 14f poke given a wall is nearby and 220 is full life bar.

SS tier: Akira Jacky
S Tier: Taka, Brad Lion

This was the original tier list from Japan and the game itself is unchanged and Jacky is still insane and SS tier despite the blaze players Arcadia rankings, but I will link you his tier list which is basically the same outside of Jacky being demoted which is not accurate and nobody in the west agrees with that guy about absurd FS Jacky. Current list is below.


SS: Akira
S: Taka, Lion, Brad
A: Jacky, Jean, Vanessa
B: Goh, Shun, Wolf

(Large Gap)

C: Sarah, Kage, Lau
D: El Blaze, Jeffry
E: Aoi, Pai, Lei-Fei, Eileen

That's insane and I heard about Jacky. I remember that tier list but I hate how most tier lists have SS to E, too much exaggeration for my tastes. SS to me is super broken, and E/F would be unplayable.

I see what they mean by the list though, but VF doesn't have any 9/1's in the game does it?

[spliffybaz]

The reality is Akira and Jacky are broken and Etier characters need to outplay the SS characters at a 3 to 1 minimum and with less tools and damage. Akira has a 13f guard break that punishes you with a large EZ to execute combo for blocking, it's faster than an elbow which is 14f. Jacky gets unfair damage and phantom half screen hitboxes along with insane safety on his attacks. Jacky has a high circular with an unblockable low followup on block or hit. So If you block Jacky's extremely fast high circular his low is guaranteed, if you don't block jacky you lose 45% of your health from one input 7K. Etier characters have nothing like this as i'm an Etier specialist and don't use high tiers in FS since it's release. I play Lion a bit for Stier but he takes insane damage like Etiers so he is the only balanced high Tier.

[The Big Daddy C-Master]

Nov 10, 2015 22:13:33 GMT -5 spliffybaz said:

The reality is Akira and Jacky are broken and Etier characters need to outplay the SS characters at a 3 to 1 minimum and with less tools and damage. Akira has a 13f guard break that punishes you with a large EZ to execute combo for blocking, it's faster than an elbow which is 14f. Jacky gets unfair damage and phantom half screen hitboxes along with insane safety on his attacks. Jacky has a high circular with an unblockable low followup on block or hit. So If you block Jacky's extremely fast high circular his low is guaranteed, if you don't block jacky you lose 45% of your health from one input 7K. Etier characters have nothing like this as i'm an Etier specialist and don't use high tiers in FS since it's release. I play Lion a bit for Stier but he takes insane damage like Etiers so he is the only balanced high Tier.

Everyone does insane damage in this version so is the tier disparity based on just ease of landing the damage, or am I missing something?

[spliffybaz]

No damage is not even close to equal. Sarah gets 50 damage for her 14f 7k and its more negative than Jacky's, Jacky gets 87 damage for his 14f 7k and it has pushback and block stun along with being less negative and harder to punish. High tiers except lion all do more damage than they can possibly take from low tiers, in any situation basically. Sarah needs to clear over 90 frames to access a high poke that gives less frame advantage and damage than Jacky's who's poke is only 14 frames and gives more frame advantage is less negative on block, and can lead to full lifebar combos. Some characters get 50 damage for a 14f punish while stronger characters get 70 or more damage for their 14f punish. Also low tiers like eileen take specialized high damage combos from the entire cast and ofc high tiers do even more damage and eileen cannot possibly ever score close to the same damage in any situation. She also does not even have a 14f punish at all.

When the Japanese say (Large Gap) it's just that, it's a massive difference between the characters power levels and tiers. Sure you can win, but it's like E.Ryu vs Dan in USF4 or even worse in some match ups, like Taka vs Sarah is extremely horrid for Sarah, she can't really knock him down and he gets insane damage on her at will, while taking way less.

[The Big Daddy C-Master]

Nov 11, 2015 1:58:05 GMT -5 spliffybaz said:

No damage is not even close to equal. Sarah gets 50 damage for her 14f 7k and its more negative than Jacky's, Jacky gets 87 damage for his 14f 7k and it has pushback and block stun along with being less negative and harder to punish. High tiers except lion all do more damage than they can possibly take from low tiers, in any situation basically. Sarah needs to clear over 90 frames to access a high poke that gives less frame advantage and damage than Jacky's who's poke is only 14 frames and gives more frame advantage is less negative on block, and can lead to full lifebar combos. Some characters get 50 damage for a 14f punish while stronger characters get 70 or more damage for their 14f punish. Also low tiers like eileen take specialized high damage combos from the entire cast and ofc high tiers do even more damage and eileen cannot possibly ever score close to the same damage in any situation. She also does not even have a 14f punish at all.

When the Japanese say (Large Gap) it's just that, it's a massive difference between the characters power levels and tiers. Sure you can win, but it's like E.Ryu vs Dan in USF4 or even worse in some match ups, like Taka vs Sarah is extremely horrid for Sarah, she can't really knock him down and he gets insane damage on her at will, while taking way less.

That's pretty bad then. So would you say it's MvC3 like?

USF4 was one of the better versions. SF is an archetype game so you have bad matchups like Hawk vs Blanka, Guile vs Bison, and Makoto vs Dhalsim since some characters are limited. Evil Ryu was legimitately good without having anything crazy like the Twins are having every tool imaginable like Akuma. He was the most overhyped character ever and would have never had that problem if Daigo didn't jump on board. He performed better as a character in 2012 with Sako anyways, but even he had his up and down matches.

Anyways I'll save that for the balance thread.

I definitely know the damage absurdly high in this game, but do the characters who have lower damage compensate with better speed or better tools, or is it all about punish and damage amount?

[spliffybaz]

No it isn't marvel levels bad because if you have insanely good defense you can punish things you just get less damage and reward for your correct guesses and need to outplay the opponent 2 or 3-1. Do the lower tiers have faster moves with better properties to offset the damage and frame disparities NO. Like I said the "LARGE GAP" is not a lie. 2 girls have an 11f jab, but one of them does not posses a 14f punisher which high tiers all have and can do insane damage on her with their 14f safe on block normal. Lion has a 11f jab too and is S tier. So it isn't Marvel bad, but there is a large gap between strong characters and the low tier characters, all the female characters in the game are worse than the males. Vanessa is the strongest female character but ironically is also the most manly or masculine. She looked like a straight up sterioded out man in her debut game VF4.

[The Big Daddy C-Master]

Nov 11, 2015 13:34:55 GMT -5 spliffybaz said:

No it isn't marvel levels bad because if you have insanely good defense you can punish things you just get less damage and reward for your correct guesses and need to outplay the opponent 2 or 3-1. Do the lower tiers have faster moves with better properties to offset the damage and frame disparities NO. Like I said the "LARGE GAP" is not a lie. 2 girls have an 11f jab, but one of them does not posses a 14f punisher which high tiers all have and can do insane damage on her with their 14f safe on block normal. Lion has a 11f jab too and is S tier. So it isn't Marvel bad, but there is a large gap between strong characters and the low tier characters, all the male characters in the game are worse than the males. Vanessa is the strongest female character but ironically is also the most manly or masculine. She looked like a straight up sterioded out man in her debut game VF4.

That and she was darker at first too.

Is it worth picking a heavy grappler in Vf:fs? Like Wolf?

[spliffybaz]

Wolf is ok, if you enjoy that play style then go for it. I like Pai, Aoi, Eileen, Sarah, Vanessa, Jean, and Lion probably in that order, I tried Wolf but didn't enjoy his gameplay personally. There are some dedicated Wolf players who really love him though.

[The Big Daddy C-Master]

Nov 11, 2015 18:43:43 GMT -5 spliffybaz said:

Wolf is ok, if you enjoy that play style then go for it. I like Pai, Aoi, Eileen, Sarah, Vanessa, Jean, and Lion probably in that order, I tried Wolf but didn't enjoy his gameplay personally. There are some dedicated Wolf players who really love him though.

Is it because you don't like having to wait and you want to be aggressive?

[spliffybaz]

I don't play grapplers in any games really, I like Paul in Tekken for example and characters that are either fun to play or are just really cool looking. It's a game so I want an entertaining fun time and big lumbering grapplers aren't that for me. I prefer faster more offensive characters with cool and rewarding combos and fun gameplay. Defensive characters are enjoyable too but large grapplers so far aren't for me.

[The Big Daddy C-Master]

Nov 11, 2015 19:10:23 GMT -5 spliffybaz said:

I don't play grapplers in any games really, I like Paul in Tekken for example and characters that are either fun to play or are just really cool looking. It's a game so I want an entertaining fun time and big lumbering grapplers aren't that for me. I prefer faster more offensive characters with cool and rewarding combos and fun gameplay. Defensive characters are enjoyable too but large grapplers so far aren't for me.

It depends on the game for me. I like King and Wolf, but I'll play Ryu as well, and I'm playing Mika.

You really should try Kof. The styles in that game are far different. Grapplers in Kof are fast and can run, dash, and roll, and they have 1f command grabs.

Which character is your hardest matchup?

[spliffybaz]

That is character dependent.

Sarah Bad Mu's: Taka Brad, Aoi, Goh, Vanessa (are terrible MU's), Jacky, Akira, Kage, Lei Fei, Lion (all quite bad as well)

Pai: none (Brad is challenging to fight against currently tho)

Aoi: none

Jean: all characters because i'm not good with him

Lion: Vanessa (as Chibita the JP Lion player who is > Fuudo says Vanessa is his hardest MU)

Eileen: None as she is the absolute lowest tier and takes the most damage of all characters by far, most match ups feel the same for her. If you make any mistake you've probably lost most of your life bar, GG's.

Vanessa: None

[The Big Daddy C-Master]

Nov 11, 2015 20:06:49 GMT -5 spliffybaz said:

That is character dependent.

Sarah Bad Mu's: Taka Brad, Aoi, Goh, Vanessa (are terrible MU's), Jacky, Akira, Kage, Lei Fei, Lion (all quite bad as well)

Pai: none (Brad is challenging to fight against currently tho)

Aoi: none

Jean: all characters because i'm not good with him

Lion: Vanessa (as Chibita the JP Lion player who is > Fuudo says Vanessa is his hardest MU)

Eileen: None as she is the absolute lowest tier and takes the most damage of all characters by far, most match ups feel the same for her. If you make any mistake you've probably lost most of your life bar, GG's.

Vanessa: None

Interesting.

How important are resets to the metagame considering the high damage?

[spliffybaz]

There aren't really resets persay, meaties and okizeme are what you generally have for knockdowns in FS. Plus frames are how you push advantage on block, strings have tracking and more noob friendly properties if you evade and hit a button at the wrong time a string tracks and hits you despite being linear. You are in nitaku in positive situations of +7 type of range typically and the reverse is true in negative situations around -7 range that put you into reverse nitaku situations. Nitaku basically means "2 choice" so at positive frame situations around +7 you can choose to attack your opponent with a mid attack or attempt a throw (you can of coarse choose a high or low attack at +7 but might not be an optimal choice of your frame advantage in nitaku), at -6 to -9 you can choose to defend and hold a throw escape, or to attack to destroy the throw (with a launcher presumably). Attacks beat throws, unless you are at -10 or above as throws are 10 frames in VF. So at +10 you get a guaranteed throw attempt, you can still escape the throw if you guess the right direction, but obviously attacking wont work unless they are terrible players and don't know what to do at +10 etc. +12 basically starts guaranteed punishment situations because most jabs are 12f and PK is the punish, p then k after lands at +12. At +15 a 14f combo starter will punish them etc. But online frames don't hold up so at +15 I can do a 14f punish and it gets blocked cause lag etc.

So frame data study and knowing your frames for moves on hit, counter hit, and block is crucial, this determines which moves are safe, unsafe, which are good, which are useless etc. You need to know other characters frame data to know when to punish them or when it's your turn to attack, otherwise you eat counter hits and massive FS combo damage. Certain universal frame data exists all single standing jabs are +2 on block iirc, all 17f launcher are -15 on block, all low circular sweeps are at least -18 and thus 17f launcher punishable. So that is your basics, So fundamentals, frame data, choosing when to attack at disadvantage if you think a throw is coming. Punishing moves is super important but doesn't work well online and makes everything fraudulent, recovery frames from whiffed moves are real and get you punished offline online you can basically whiff freely without fear of being properly punished for it. Online VF is so bad man.

In VF the frame data is on in dojo because that's how the game is played, so you go into dojo and test moves and it shows you there frame data. If you set the cpu to block it shows block data of the move, if u set it to counter hit it shows you that etc.

[The Big Daddy C-Master]

Nov 11, 2015 22:56:40 GMT -5 spliffybaz said:

There aren't really resets persay, meaties and okizeme are what you generally have for knockdowns in FS. Plus frames are how you push advantage on block, strings have tracking and more noob friendly properties if you evade and hit a button at the wrong time a string tracks and hits you despite being linear. You are in nitaku in positive situations of +7 type of range typically and the reverse is true in negative situations around -7 range that put you into reverse nitaku situations. Nitaku basically means "2 choice" so at positive frame situations around +7 you can choose to attack your opponent with a mid attack or attempt a throw (you can of coarse choose a high or low attack at +7 but might not be an optimal choice of your frame advantage in nitaku), at -6 to -9 you can choose to defend and hold a throw escape, or to attack to destroy the throw (with a launcher presumably). Attacks beat throws, unless you are at -10 or above as throws are 10 frames in VF. So at +10 you get a guaranteed throw attempt, you can still escape the throw if you guess the right direction, but obviously attacking wont work unless they are terrible players and don't know what to do at +10 etc. +12 basically starts guaranteed punishment situations because most jabs are 12f and PK is the punish, p then k after lands at +12. At +15 a 14f combo starter will punish them etc. But online frames don't hold up so at +15 I can do a 14f punish and it gets blocked cause lag etc.

So frame data study and knowing your frames for moves on hit, counter hit, and block is crucial, this determines which moves are safe, unsafe, which are good, which are useless etc. You need to know other characters frame data to know when to punish them or when it's your turn to attack, otherwise you eat counter hits and massive FS combo damage. Certain universal frame data exists all single standing jabs are +2 on block iirc, all 17f launcher are -15 on block, all low circular sweeps are at least -18 and thus 17f launcher punishable. So that is your basics, So fundamentals, frame data, choosing when to attack at disadvantage if you think a throw is coming. Punishing moves is super important but doesn't work well online and makes everything fraudulent, recovery frames from whiffed moves are real and get you punished offline online you can basically whiff freely without fear of being properly punished for it. Online VF is so bad man.

In VF the frame data is on in dojo because that's how the game is played, so you go into dojo and test moves and it shows you there frame data. If you set the cpu to block it shows block data of the move, if u set it to counter hit it shows you that etc.

Thought I posted just a second ago. So frame data in this game is far more important than in other fighters it seems, especially games like Street Fighter. I've used the dojo and it was very thorough. What do the fastest attacks start with in this game? 7 frames or so then? Would that be a typical jab?

Also can only characters like Wolf grab crouching characters while standing?

[spliffybaz]

Ok so frame data in VF is absolute and more important than in any other game. There is no invincible moves like DP, but a Sabaki can work like a reversal attack, but a Sabaki is a guess or hard read that works only from disadvantage. It will either cover a kick or a punch attack and can't beat circular attacks or double limbed attacks, and lows beat them unless it's a low sabaki and any move that isn't a low beats low sabaki's. It isn't a tool everyone has and it doesn't cover every attack option like a DP, so it's more like a specific reversal in DOA sorta. You need a to use punch sabaki to beat hand strikes and a seperate kick sabaki to beat kicks, so P attack beats kick sabaki, and kick will beat a punch sabaki. Low sabaki's lose to mids, so if you guess wrong with your reversal sabaki you eat a CH.

Pai, Vanessa, Aoi, Blaze, Goh,, Jeff and Wolf have low throws where you can grab a crouching opponent. Fastest attack is a 10f hook with no range, Vanessa has it, Sarah has a 10f jab but needs a 44 input that adds 1f to it via execution. Eileen, Lion, Pai have 11f jabs that is second faster attack in VF, 12f jab is standard for all others, 11f not a huge advantage no high damage characters have 11f jab and therr may be no -11 situations in the game at all, pretty sure there are none. 14f is an elbow 6P = elbows and that is the fasted mid attack and VF revolves around elbow and jab as they are fast safe pokes, some elbows have easily hit confirmable follows ups, some do not have follow ups. All elbows are + on hit, negative on block. Aoi has 43P which is 13f double limbed mid that high crushes from disadvantage upto -9, and it beats all Sabaki's. Pai has a 12f mid fastest mid in the game, aoi's is 2nd fastest mid attack in VF and high crushes. Pai's double limb 12f mid beats all sabaki's too, but doesn't high crush and wont land unless the frames allow it. So a lot of mind games are needed for VF along with good execution and reactions to punish and frame data knowledge. It is vastly more technical and complicated than say DOA with false frame data based on stuns. Also VF has no patching in Japan or America since version A dropped on console, VF5FS is a finished stable game. A version B was released in Japan but it has no system or frame data changes, it just removed online capability from the japanese arcade machines.

[The Big Daddy C-Master]

Nov 12, 2015 2:09:54 GMT -5 spliffybaz said:

Ok so frame data in VF is absolute and more important than in any other game. There is no invincible moves like DP, but a Sabaki can work like a reversal attack, but a Sabaki is a guess or hard read that works only from disadvantage. It will either cover a kick or a punch attack and can't beat circular attacks or double limbed attacks, and lows beat them unless it's a low sabaki and any move that isn't a low beats low sabaki's. It isn't a tool everyone has and it doesn't cover every attack option like a DP, so it's more like a specific reversal in DOA sorta. You need a to use punch sabaki to beat hand strikes and a seperate kick sabaki to beat kicks, so P attack beats kick sabaki, and kick will beat a punch sabaki. Low sabaki's lose to mids, so if you guess wrong with your reversal sabaki you eat a CH.

Pai, Vanessa, Aoi, Blaze, Goh,, Jeff and Wolf have low throws where you can grab a crouching opponent. Fastest attack is a 10f hook with no range, Vanessa has it, Sarah has a 10f jab but needs a 44 input that adds 1f to it via execution. Eileen, Lion, Pai have 11f jabs that is second faster attack in VF, 12f jab is standard for all others, 11f not a huge advantage no high damage characters have 11f jab and ther may be no -11 situations in the game at all, pretty sure there are non. 14f is an elbow 6P = elbows and that is the fasted mid attack and VF revolves around elbow and jab as they are fast safe pokes, some elbows have easily hit confirmable follows ups, some do not have follow ups. All elbows are + on hit, negative on block. Aoi has 43P which is 13f double limbed mid that high crushes from disadvantage upto -9, and it beats all Sabaki's. Pai has a 12f mid fastest mid in the game, aoi's is 2nd fastest mid attack in VF and high crushes. Pai's double limb 12f mid beats all sabaki's too, but doesn't high crush and wont land unless the frames allow it. So a lot of mind games are needed for VF along with good execution and reactions to punish and frame data knowledge. It is vastly more technical and complicated than say DOA with false frame data based on stuns. Also VF has no patching in Japan or America since version A dropped on console, VF5FS is a finished stable game. A version B was released in Japan but it has no system or frame data changes, it just removed online capability from the japanese arcade machines.

I can tell by the way you talk about it that frame data knowledge is a must. I really do like that you don't have scrub mechanics like dp's to fall back on and put your opponent in that situation when you made a mistake. You should have to work harder to get out of it. I get that it is a classic move in 2d fighters, but still...

So if you were to use a punch sabaki to beat a kick or vice versa, would it simply w hiff?

[spliffybaz]

No no no no it would result in you eating a counter hit for more damage and you'd be at more negative frames. Counter hits give more frame advantage and more damage just like in SF. So if you use the wrong sabaki you might pay big. Say I know or think you will abare from disadvantage with a sabaki because I would do it, and elbows and jabs are safe pokes so I guess your gonna punch sabaki me, if I do a kick launcher I get a CH and can do basically half of your life bar, or over 40% of your health for your incorrect guess. If I do a move like Aoi's double limbed 43P which is a specific sabkai beating move, you get put into a shakeable stagger state where you have to struggle the stagger (which is very hard on hitbox I heard) and I can get a launcher combo if you can't stagger it in time or are not ready for the stagger. I can go for a safer option and dash in for a throw if i expect you to successfully shake the stagger. So it is this type of midgames, but absolutely no DP type moves in VF that universally beat all attack options from disadvantage. Online mashing from disadvantage works because of lag eating frames, offline never happens though! So same as 2D games where frames and moves don't hold up where they would offline due to that online lag factor.

So for me learning 2D is quite hard cause i'm use to no DP's and no SPD's beating attacks etc and my 2D fundamentals aren't there yet. I am improving a bit, but lots of shenanigans in 2D so it's a fun challenge for me to try and improve, I enjoy the destructions I get regardless though haha.