Virtua Fighter Thread.

[The Big Daddy C-Master]

Nov 12, 2015 2:30:26 GMT -5 spliffybaz said:

No no no no it would result in you eating a counter hit for more damage and you'd be at more negative frames. Counter hits give more frame advantage and more damage just like in SF. So if you use the wrong sabaki you might pay big. Say I know or think you will abare from disadvantage with a sabaki because I would do it, and elbows and jabs are safe pokes so I guess your gonna punch sabaki me, if I do a kick launcher I get a CH and can do basically half of your life bar, or over 40% of your health for your incorrect guess. If I do a move like Aoi's double limbed 43P which is a specific sabkai beating move, you get put into a shakeable stagger state where you have to struggle the stagger (which is very hard on hitbox I heard) and I can get a launcher combo if you can't stagger it in time or are not ready for the stagger. I can go for a safer option and dash in for a throw if i expect you to successfully shake the stagger. So it is this type of midgames, but absolutely no DP type moves in VF that universally beat all attack options from disadvantage. Online mashing from disadvantage works because of lag eating frames, offline never happens though! So same as 2D games where frames and moves don't hold up where they would offline due to that online lag factor.

So for me learning 2D is quite hard cause i'm use to no DP's and no SPD's beating attacks etc and my 2D fundamentals aren't there yet. I am improving a bit, but lots of shenanigans in 2D so it's a fun challenge for me to try and improve, I enjoy the destructions I get regardless though haha.

2d tends to be more focused on execution and fast fingers and 3d has much more of a neutral/mental focus. That's why there was a debate about 2d vs 3d and I think someone summed it up well.

"I think VF is easy to learn. I suck at doing tight frame combos, and motion inputs. Sure Virtua Fighter is the hardest game to master, but I can pick it up and play it. 2d fighers are harder to get into if your execution is not great, but they are simpler and more linear to understand and master because you have fewer options."


Do you feel the damage off of punishes approaches Tekken level then?

[spliffybaz]

I don't play tekken enough to compare, but I can get 30% damage from a 14f punish and about 40 to 45% ish damage for an 18 frame punish in VF. VF5FS is basically a two mistake game if you're playing against high tiers and a 3 mistake game vs low tiers. Now that doesn't mean that a smaller mistake results in half your life being gone, it's entirely possibly to make many mistakes and still win, but if you eat a CH launcher you can basically count on losing about 50% of your health. The amount of mind games and all the frame counting and fast decision making after keep things interesting and end with various results. VF is tons of mind games and reading your opponents and even though standard combo execution is easy even top player from japan like fuudo, itazan etc do still drop combos. The movement system isn't easy and players that are now playing the game for over 3 years since release still can't use it, which is completely unacceptable, but that's how it is. So even if you really simplify your game players will still suck and be scrub, thus I don't see SF5 EZ mode exe really making people love that game much more than anything else they've played. They may be surprised to find that the FGC wants a challenge and that's why many of us enjoy fighters, SF5 could very well blow up on them with the quest for 12 year old COD players dollars.

[The Big Daddy C-Master]

Nov 12, 2015 11:37:26 GMT -5 spliffybaz said:

I don't play tekken enough to compare, but I can get 30% damage from a 14f punish and about 40 to 45% ish damage for an 18 frame punish in VF. VF5FS is basically a two mistake game if you're playing against high tiers and a 3 mistake game vs low tiers. Now that doesn't mean that a smaller mistake results in half your life being gone, it's entirely possibly to make many mistakes and still win, but if you eat a CH launcher you can basically count on losing about 50% of your health. The amount of mind games and all the frame counting and fast decision making after keep things interesting and end with various results. VF is tons of mind games and reading your opponents and even though standard combo execution is easy even top player from japan like fuudo, itazan etc do still drop combos. The movement system isn't easy and players that are now playing the game for over 3 years since release still can't use it, which is completely unacceptable, but that's how it is. So even if you really simplify your game players will still suck and be scrub, thus I don't see SF5 EZ mode exe really making people love that game much more than anything else they've played. They may be surprised to find that the FGC wants a challenge and that's why many of us enjoy fighters, SF5 could very well blow up on them with the quest for 12 year old COD players dollars.

This game emphasizes movement and reads more than 2d fighters. Kof has a high movement requirement but it's on a 2d plane. You can tell by Fuudo's style in SF4 he's used to a certain movement style, but they call him the "wet blanket" with his approach.

[spliffybaz]

fuudo is damn epic destroys all western VF players in europe and North America.

[The Big Daddy C-Master]

Nov 12, 2015 15:48:14 GMT -5 spliffybaz said:

fuudo is damn epic destroys all western VF players in europe and North America.

Would you say he's #1?

[spliffybaz]

In VF haha he's not even close to a top VF player in Japan in VF5FS, he's above average and strong, but isn't a top 10 or top 5 kind of VF player in Japan currently. The west doesn't play much offline only fraudulent online warriors mashing it out over the internet. So there isn't as consistent play from western players. Itoshun was the best Japanese FS player 9he retired but was over 80% win ratio with 20K+ games in tokyo area), Homestay and Buster are currently some of the top players, Gorgoues Goh too (he was an eileen main but dropped her cause Etier in FS). Fuudo can beat them but not more than they'll beat him and they are superior and win much more in VF. Megane is better than fuudo as well, Chibita is better etc. Fuudo mainly plays SF4 for the money now and isn't as active in VF cause no money in it, but if every western VF player all lived in a state the size of California the scene would be stronger, wouldn't be Japan level but would be vastly stronger than it is now. If the entire U.S. and EU SF scene was in NY or Cali then SF scene would be vastly stronger too. The large distances and infrequent offline against the strongest players makes for weaker players in America and EU. Online is good, but only to a certain extent/level, lag is real and there is no substitute for real offline gaming. Japan isn't a large Island and it has an enormous population and fighting games are part of their culture and they play them more and play offline much more often, with many more people. Being a fraudulent online warrior can only take you so far and that isn't to the heights of Japanese or East Asian offline gaming unfortunately.

[The Big Daddy C-Master]

Nov 12, 2015 16:58:59 GMT -5 spliffybaz said:

In VF haha he's not even close to a top VF player in Japan in VF5FS, he's above average and strong, but isn't a top 10 or top 5 kind of VF player in Japan currently. The west doesn't play much offline only fraudulent online warriors mashing it out over the internet. So there isn't as consistent play from western players. Itoshun was the best Japanese FS player 9he retired but was over 80% win ratio with 20K+ games in tokyo area), Homestay and Buster are currently some of the top players, Gorgoues Goh too (he was an eileen main but dropped her cause Etier in FS). Fuudo can beat them but not more than they'll beat him and they are superior and win much more in VF. Megane is better than fuudo as well, Chibita is better etc. Fuudo mainly plays SF4 for the money now and isn't as active in VF cause no money in it, but if every western VF player all lived in a state the size of California the scene would be stronger, wouldn't be Japan level but would be vastly stronger than it is now. If the entire U.S. and EU SF scene was in NY or Cali then SF scene would be vastly stronger too. The large distances and infrequent offline against the strongest players makes for weaker players in America and EU. Online is good, but only to a certain extent/level, lag is real and there is no substitute for real offline gaming. Japan isn't a large Island and it has an enormous population and fighting games are part of their culture and they play them more and play offline much more often, with many more people. Being a fraudulent online warrior can only take you so far and that isn't to the heights of Japanese or East Asian offline gaming unfortunately.

Well yea, if we played FG's in a condensed location with little travel America would definitely be much better. I heard Ryan Heart dropped the game. Is that true?

Online is also better in Japan than it is here, so it's a double whammy.

Who do you think the hardest character to use is? Akira?

[spliffybaz]

No characters are hard to use in FS compared to older VF's but Lion is probably the hardest character. He is the only truly well balanced top tier character as he takes large damage for his mistakes while the others do not. His max damage character specific combos have hard execution and foot stance checking requirements and you can't mash and win with him, his damage is not at that level. He has the most insane side turned game in FS however and amazing tools, tools so good that I can't stop from being overly aggressive and mashing them out when I should not be. It is hard not to abare with such great tools most do not posses in the game. So after learning the character I understand why local VF player Chanchai a Lion player has trouble controlling abare as I do with Lion myself. Akira is simplified down to very easy execution he isn't anything like his VF4 self from execution. Winning with low tier female characters will be the most challenging thing in the game as their tools and damage are pitiful compared to the male cast, that's just the reality of VF5FS.

Ryan Hart is FREE in VF5FS and also can't do the systems basic movement he is still playing it like older VF's and yes he and everyone else dropped it there is no money in it or players. SF5 wont be something he enjoys it's shit easy, he may start trying other franchises i'd imagine like dimenion is.

[The Big Daddy C-Master]

Nov 12, 2015 17:15:52 GMT -5 spliffybaz said:

No characters are hard to use in FS compared to older VF's but Lion is probably the hardest character. He is the only truly well balanced top tier character as he takes large damage for his mistakes while the others do not. His max damage character specific combos have hard execution and foot stance checking requirements and you can't mash and win with him, his damage is not at that level. He has the most insane side turned game in FS however and amazing tools, tools so good that I can't stop from being overly aggressive and mashing them out when I should not be. It is hard not to abare with such great tools most do not posses in the game. So after learning the character I understand why local VF player Chanchai a Lion player has trouble controlling abare as I do with Lion myself. Akira is simplified down to very easy execution he isn't anything like his VF4 self from execution. Winning with low tier female characters will be the most challenging thing in the game as their tools and damage are pitiful compared to the male cast, that's just the reality of VF5FS.

Ryan Hart is FREE in VF5FS and also can't do the systems basic movement he is still playing it like older VF's and yes he and everyone else dropped it there is no money in it or players. SF5 wont be something he enjoys it's shit easy, he may start trying other franchises i'd imagine like dimenion is.

I always hear about how Akira is just impossible to use because of the execution, but like you said they eased up on that. I always thought that was a lame excuse because people play SF no matter what the execution is. Just like they use the lag excuse and PSN has awful lag. It's an embarrassment to be forced to payf or it.


Yea Ryan Hart is good at Kof. Any other big name SF players play KoF?

[spliffybaz]

Dunno, need to try out KOF myself, SF5 wont require any time since it's a casual game, not for serious gamers, so KOF is worth looking into for sure.

[The Big Daddy C-Master]

Nov 12, 2015 17:46:29 GMT -5 spliffybaz said:

Dunno, need to try out KOF myself, SF5 wont require any time since it's a casual game, not for serious gamers, so KOF is worth looking into for sure.

Get it on Steam. Your PC can handle it. Small community like Vf but if you like a challenge you'll love it as there is a lot of stuff to try out. If you need help there are several players here that play it and I have a community page.

Get XIII, 02, and 98. Try them all out.

This SFV is making you upset, is it because VF toned itself down too and you see this game heading that way?

[spliffybaz]

I don't enjoy being treated like a child by developers and told I can't have fun with a game I buy. I'm free in Sf4 but who cares I didn't put any time into for it's entire run. Now i'm serious about it and and am doing more 1f links and other combos when I previously hated the game. FS tier imbalances really bug me, all my characters are really extremely weak, like some are SF Dan levels compared to SS tiers. They also removed many options and many attacks and strings from all characters to simplify things. I improved greatly over 3+ years and ultimately did stick with the game because it's deep enough and even now I can still greatly improve, dojo is valuable in VF. SF5 is just BORING and is not FUN at all. SF4 has hard combos, OS, comeback ultras, and gmmicks and I enjoy the challenge of learning more of this stuff and improving over being told I can never ever possibly achieve a satisfying combo or gaming experience from SF5, because that's not the direction of the game and the FGC and loyal SF audience isn't good enough for Capcom anymore. Landing Cammy 1f links is damn satisfying and the sound FX are great and SF5 sound effects are horrid and landing Cammy combos feels weak and i'm upset. Plus now they further nerf my Spiral >_<

SF5 is enraging because it's a game for no skill mashers and there is no possibility of depth or achievement within the system. Just space and work on boring punish combos. Link an EX move for your best combos and rinse repeat and be bored by simplicity for the uncoordinated randoms who will drop the game after a month.

[The Big Daddy C-Master]

Nov 12, 2015 18:05:10 GMT -5 spliffybaz said:

I don't enjoy being treated like a child by developers and told I can't have fun with a game I buy. I'm free in Sf4 but who cares I didn't put any time into for it's entire run. Now i'm serious about it and and am doing more 1f links and other combos when I previously hated the game. FS tier imbalances really bug me, all my characters are really extremely weak, like some are SF Dan levels compared to SS tiers. They also removed many options and many attacks and strings from all characters to simplify things. I improved greatly over 3+ years and ultimately did stick with the game because it's deep enough and even now I can still greatly improve, dojo is valuable in VF. SF5 is just BORING and is not FUN at all. SF4 has hard combos, OS, comeback ultras, and gmmicks and I enjoy the challenge of learning more of this stuff and improving over being told I can never ever possibly achieve a satisfying combo or gaming experience from SF5, because that's not the direction of the game and the FGC and loyal SF audience isn't good enough for Capcom anymore. Landing Cammy 1f links is damn satisfying and the sound FX are great and SF5 sound effects are horrid and landing Cammy combos feels weak and i'm upset. Plus now they further nerf my Spiral >_<

SF5 is enraging because it's a game for no skill mashers and there is no possibility of depth or achievement within the system. Just space and work on boring punish combos. Link an EX move for your best combos and rinse repeat and be bored by simplicity for the uncoordinated randoms who will drop the game after a month.

Well you have a point that when developers start trying to make the game too much a certain way they undermine the creativity of players to explore new things. That's what was fun about old games. You got to just find stuff out yourself.

VF was eased up a bit, but you still had options didn't you?

I felt that SF4 had shortcomings as well. Crouch tech, focus, reversal windows, etc. This game says it wants to get rid of bs, and it sounded promising but now they've gone back on so much.

[spliffybaz]

VF has many mind games and there are options abound for a VF game. It isn't the best VF game ever made though, but my appreciation of it grows as newer games are released that are much worse and full of reactionary patching and nerfs. No balance changes for 5 years.

[The Big Daddy C-Master]

How do you like VF2?

[spliffybaz]

Wasn't a fan of it, I enjoyed the most challenging VF, VF4. I later got into VF5 Vanilla, and VF5FS is really ok, it's getting better with age for sure but is a demanding game. From VF4 on the series is a technical beast that demands dedication and commitment from it's players so it isn't very popular. Not to make a blanket statement but VF is sort of the thinking mans fighting game because of all the frame data study needed, and the nitaku situations, and it mixes reactions and ring awareness because of ring outs, or walls in FS, walls are deadly in VF5FS. If FS ever dropped on PC I could have some players of various skill levels add you on STEAM. VF2 is very old school basic VF, it's VF for sure but isn't at as high of a technical level, just as Tekken 2 wasn't the most technical Tekken game, or SF2 isn't the most technical SF'er game and so on. PC needs to get some more games for sure, hopefully SEGA drops some on there. We get SF5 soon so we're good tho ^_^

[The Big Daddy C-Master]

Nov 12, 2015 23:55:23 GMT -5 spliffybaz said:

Wasn't a fan of it, I enjoyed the most challenging VF, VF4. I later got into VF5 Vanilla, and VF5FS is really ok, it's getting better with age for sure but is a demanding game. From VF4 on the series is a technical beast that demands dedication and commitment from it's players so it isn't very popular. Not to make a blanket statement but VF is sort of the thinking mans fighting game because of all the frame data study needed, and the nitaku situations, and it mixes reactions and ring awareness because of ring outs, or walls in FS, walls are deadly in VF5FS. If FS ever dropped on PC I could have some players of various skill levels add you on STEAM. VF2 is very old school basic VF, it's VF for sure but isn't at as high of a technical level, just as Tekken 2 wasn't the most technical Tekken game, or SF2 isn't the most technical SF'er game and so on. PC needs to get some more games for sure, hopefully SEGA drops some on there. We get SF5 soon so we're good tho ^_^

People like the more basic ones for a reasons because the games tend to have more of a neutral focus and get rid of the fluffery, much like KoF98 for instance. Some people like more gimmicky play and go for the newer and flashier version while some stay behind. 4 was definitely an excellent piece of work though.

[The Big Daddy C-Master]

Got a big one. How different is the throw evade system in terms of gameplay and why do so many people find the change controversial? I know some people hated the old throw system and some hate the new one.

[spliffybaz]

Oh you mean throw escape, I already explained that earlier, but I don't mind going over it again real fast. Old throw escape system rewarded high skill and you had to escape throws on reaction. Throws had directions of 5 4 1 2 3 and 6 that could all be escaped if you pressed the same direction that the throw ended in. So you use to be able to input multiple escapes into one throw window depending on your own personal skill levels of coarse. So I could do 3 escapes in one window, but it took me many years to get to that level, but man it was rewarding when you escaped throws. 4, 6, and nuetral (5) where the directions I could escape, some people could do 4 inputs on an escape and were really hard to throw. The new "Lazy Throw Escape" system 'LTE' is really lame and boring, you simply stand and hold guard then press the punch button after and pick a direction to hold. So you only have one chance to escape a throw in the new system, but there is zero skill involved in your escape and throws are now limited to 4, 5, and 6, directions. So it's a 33.3333% chance of escape on every throw, but most players use 4 or 6 throws as they do the most damage, nuetral throws are weak and I rarely ever bother to escape them. There are still diagonal throw directions but only for low throws and it's the same thing as LTE. So now you don't break throws on reaction you just hold block and then punch and a direction. Depending on the characters most damaging throw direction or your proximity to a wall or ring out situation you will just be sitting there holding 6P+G (usually the most damaging throws for any character) or 4P+G (usually the ring out or wall combo setup throw for all characters). Side throws are only one direction and you need to check the characters arm to see which input to hold, i'm usually over 90% on STE's (side trow escapes), but you can still eat side throws if you are caught off guard by them or accidentally pick the opposite direction as your escape input. No worries though after almost 4 years most VF5FS players can't escape side throws even though it's only 1 choice and 100% escapable and this is why dumbing down your game and over simplifying the mechanics ultimately doesn't do shit for your game or the players. Despite the game being insanely simplified with absurd damage from some of the worlds easiest combos (all SF5 combos are much easier than even VF5FS however) the players still are still bad and I can assure SF5 will have even worse players than SF4 ever did. Over simplifying your game in the quest of a new younger less talented audience of mashers ultimately doesn't work out, as bad players will always be bad no matter how simple you've made the game and good players may not enjoy spending more effort on less options to destroy inferior players and migrate to a more challenging and rewarding game.

[The Big Daddy C-Master]

I never understood that because you can just play people your own level.

I remember you saying something about throws before, but from what I was reading advanced players hated the dumbed down throw escapes because they felt it made the game feel more "guessey", but I heard people say that the old system favored players who could input tons of escapes and be almost impossible to throw. Had one friend say he hated the VF throw system because he felt it was "bs" yet he loves GG's system which is instant start up, untechable, and can combo into huge damage and only be beat by invincible moves. I think that's worse.

What are the methods of escape for special grabs (like some of Wolfs grabs)? Is it based on whatever the last button pressed is? Or is it just neutral?

[spliffybaz]

There are no special grabs its not a 2D game so no spd garbage. If wolfs throw ends in a 6 it's a 6 to break it. There are some catch throws, but its not many and not hard to defeat them, justcrouching/fuzzy beats a catch throw. You can normal throw them out of a catch throw, attack etc.

[The Big Daddy C-Master]

Nov 20, 2015 0:20:14 GMT -5 spliffybaz said:

There are no special grabs its not a 2D game so no spd garbage. If wolfs throw ends in a 6 it's a 6 to break it. There are some catch throws, but its not many and not hard to defeat them, justcrouching/fuzzy beats a catch throw. You can normal throw them out of a catch throw, attack etc.

So you don't like SPD style attacks?

How important is weight in this game compared to the other VF's? Is this what makes Taka so good?

[spliffybaz]

I think SPD's are garbage yes.

Weight is super important and the reason all women are garbage tier outside of Vane (well they also do inferior damage compared to men even on lightweights). Take is so good because he's basically broken. He has the most damaging and best throw game and does insane damage, while taking less damage from the cast then he dishes out. Taka has an 85 damage grab, Sarah gets about 55 to 60 damage from her grabs, Taka can do insane damage to Sarah, Eileen, Pai, etc, but they cannot do nearly as much damage to him for his same frame mistakes. Being heavier means you take less damage and being lighter means you take more. Jeff is trash in FS since his throw game is pitiful and his tools are pathetic, so him being a heavyweight is somewhat pointless in FS. The game has a ton of issues, but is far more complex and technical than SF5 and never receives any balance updates which is rare for fighters now. I already dropped the tier list, it's real with the exception that Jacky is also SS or S tier and does by far the most damage than anyone in the entire game. Taka is also beyond easy to use along with being over powered and is one of this EZ mode games easiest characters to use.

[The Big Daddy C-Master]

Nov 21, 2015 14:37:38 GMT -5 spliffybaz said:

I think SPD's are garbage yes.

Weight is super important and the reason all women are garbage tier outside of Vane (well they also do inferior damage compared to men even on lightweights). Take is so good because he's basically broken. He has the most damaging and best throw game and does insane damage, while taking less damage from the cast then he dishes out. Taka has an 85 damage grab, Sarah gets about 55 to 60 damage from her grabs, Taka can do insane damage to Sarah, Eileen, Pai, etc, but they cannot do nearly as much damage to him for his same frame mistakes. Being heavier means you take less damage and being lighter means you take more. Jeff is trash in FS since his throw game is pitiful and his tools are pathetic, so him being a heavyweight is somewhat pointless in FS. The game has a ton of issues, but is far more complex and technical than SF5 and never receives any balance updates which is rare for fighters now. I already dropped the tier list, it's real with the exception that Jacky is also SS or S tier and does by far the most damage than anyone in the entire game. Taka is also beyond easy to use along with being over powered and is one of this EZ mode games easiest characters to use.

Do you hate them because you think they're cheap?

Being large also makes you harder to juggle right? A light character floats more so they can be juggled more?

I'm shocked the Eventhubs tier list was decently accurate. I guess the non players don't bother ranking that game. What would you say is the most balanced VF?

Sf5 is getting worse. Look at the recent update.