What is "honest" in a fighting game?

[The Big Daddy C-Master]

I've been reading some... interesting comments in a forum that shall not be named and I saw some arguments about SFV being made more "honest" than other fighters, particularly SF4.

What does this mean? What makes one game more honest than another? What makes one character more honest than another?

Is a top tier character who has vortex mixups more "dishonest" than a character with super strong zoning over god like normals that shut everything down?

What do you think?

[The Big Daddy C-Master]

Nov 20, 2015 20:50:02 GMT -5 MGNoxa said:

I'm not a pro player or anything but I need more context on what the person meant by honest. If I heard someone describe something as honest I would guess they meant clean/clear? I don't know.

What people usually mean when they say "honest" is they mean an absence of "gimmick" play.

They are saying they want a game or character that emphasizes fundamentals like good spacing over 50/50 gimmicks.

The problem is, if a character is overpowered is it really honest? When you have characters with overpowered moves like Kim's Far st.D is it really fair? It's like saying I fought you like a man since I didn't use a gun but I called 10 of my friends to gang up on you. Both are suspect.

[The Big Daddy C-Master]

Nov 20, 2015 21:12:43 GMT -5 MGNoxa said:

Nov 20, 2015 21:01:58 GMT -5 The Big Daddy C-Master said:

What people usually mean when they say "honest" is they mean an absence of "gimmick" play.

They are saying they want a game or character that emphasizes fundamentals like good spacing over 50/50 gimmicks.

The problem is, if a character is overpowered is it really honest? When you have characters with overpowered moves like Kim's Far st.D is it really fair? It's like saying I fought you like a man since I didn't use a gun but I called 10 of my friends to gang up on you. Both are suspect.

Ah so I was close when I said clean/clear. I'm not the type of person who Capcom should listen to when making a fighting game or any developer but my opinion on "honest" is play Divekick???

It comes down to the individual game and player, I'm sure other people probably have different opinions on honest and so on but shouldn't the main concern be balance? If something is truly overpowered then it should be altered. Surely the most honest fighting game would be the most balanced? Even if some characters have gimmicks. Would Injustice be considered "honest" If I remember correctly almost every character in that has some sort of gimmick.

Balance can play a role since you want every character to be viable. What most people define as "honest" is whatever they feel is the "right" way to play. Hell people were calling throws "dishonest" for a long time. I think that mixups are fine as long as there's a reasonable way out of them.

In an FPS game people might say "The machine gun is weak and the shotgun is overpowered", kind of the same thing here almost.

[JACK-2]

I wouldn't say a game with no universal mechanics is honest. Just more barebones and character dominated. I've seen people say that for games that are too defensive too.

[The Big Daddy C-Master]

Nov 20, 2015 21:35:15 GMT -5 JACK-2 said:

I wouldn't say a game with no universal mechanics is honest. Just more barebones and character dominated. I've seen people say that for games that are too defensive too.

Some argue that universal mechanics are good and can enhance balance. Like Kof XIII has universal mechanics that make it so that no character is too archetyped into lopsided matchups ala Dhalsim vs Zangief.

Then again SF4 had universal mechanics and they benefitted some characters far more than others.

I remember Remulous or whatever his name was arguing that defensive turtling was somehow "smarter". Like just because you held down+back you were engaging in "deep" gameplay. I strongly disagree because BS defense (SF4) is as bad as BS offense (Marvel).

[JACK-2]

Right, loopsided matches like Guile vs O.Sagat was insane. But, even without universal mechanics sf2 was a smarter game than SF4. Which had universal pro scrub mechanics. SF5 looked like it was going to be a good offensive game until they did all those crappy reactive nerfs.

[The Big Daddy C-Master]

Nov 20, 2015 21:57:18 GMT -5 MGNoxa said:

Nov 20, 2015 21:19:03 GMT -5 The Big Daddy C-Master said:

Balance can play a role since you want every character to be viable. What most people define as "honest" is whatever they feel is the "right" way to play. Hell people were calling throws "dishonest" for a long time. I think that mixups are fine as long as there's a reasonable way out of them.

In an FPS game people might say "The machine gun is weak and the shotgun is overpowered", kind of the same thing here almost.

In MKX Netherealm put a disclaimer on the lobby search page that said "Throwing is a valid tactic, you are encouraged to use it." because idiots will say "stop throwing" and if you kept throwing you would be kicked from a lobby.

Typical scrub behavior from people who probably use every gimmick in the book. Do they also complain about "spamming"?

[The Big Daddy C-Master]

Nov 20, 2015 22:23:16 GMT -5 MGNoxa said:

Nov 20, 2015 22:21:31 GMT -5 The Big Daddy C-Master said:

Typical scrub behavior from people who probably use every gimmick in the book. Do they also complain about "spamming"?

And trapping in corners but the most damaging combos are corner combos so you just sorta do it and hope you don't get kicked.

People would call MKX "dishonest" since it has a strong element of 50/50 games, meaning your opponent makes you do coin toss guesses until you die instead of you having much of a part in it. They'd say it removes the opposing player from the equation once you learn the setups.