The DBZ Phase We All Went Through.

[The Big Daddy C-Master]

www.comicvine.com/profile/texasdeathmatch/blog/the-dbz-phase-most-of-us-went-through-it-while-oth/54219/

As we all know, DBZ has a HUGE influence over many of the comic vine users. You can see this in the battle forums, with constant threads of SSJ4 Goku versus Kal Kent or Perfect Cell versus Thor. However, when I browse through these threads, I notice the same pattern among them. Lets face it, the scope of power for the DBZ characters is absolutely ridiculous. I think when Goku fought Piccolo, they were already shaking the Earth from "powering" up (which is always my favorite time filler for this show). Considering how powerful they get in each arch, I'm not going to debate who'd win in a Comic versus Manga battle. Instead, I want to protest against the sincerity and quality. Frankly, DBZ is just awful, and simply a kids' show. And I know, many DBZ fans state that there is a lot of sexuality with characters like Bulma and Master Roshi, but honestly, that is just from the creepiness of Japanese writers and their strange sense of sexuality. If we really dissect the show, the combination of its linear, repetitive story arcs and simplistic heroes really makes for a terrible 22 minutes (without considering all the fun time fillers).

Don't get me wrong, I loved Dragon Ball Z growing up. The character art, action sequences, and progression of characters' power levels has always been appealing to me. Although I could criticized the reuse of fight sequences and animations (which is blatant at times), I honestly didn't mind watching repeated frames of Goku and Vegeta throwing punches and kicks. What irked me at first was the time wasted on nothing. The amount of time it took Namek to actually blow up when Freiza and Goku fought was simply painful. And did everyone forget when Krillin, Gohan, and Bulma land on a "Namek" the first time, only to find out it was fake and run by aliens who could create illusions. How many episodes were wasted on these clowns trying to find fake Dragon Balls? I'm sorry, but to me that is the epitome of time wasting. But writers can get away with that, because after all, their target audience are 9-12 year old boys. And this is only based on the Namek arc; I could go on about each one.

Now something I really appreciated in this Dragon Ball Kai series (haha, which they market as a "brand new" show...get real), they actually recognized those fake Namek episodes as superfluous and completely removed them. However, nothing can save the show from its absolutely repetitious storyline. Let me break the show down for you: threat comes down to Earth (or Namek), Goku (often interchangeable with Gohan, Vegeta, or Trunks) is either on his way or healing or training, the "Z Warriors" fight the threat off until the villain "upgrades" himself miraculously and demolishes them, and then the awaited hero arrives. After a brutal fight (for both the characters and viewers) and hundreds of thousands of power levels later, the hero wins (jumping himself to an even more powerful level). And what if the bad guy is too strong? A classic deus ex machina in its purest form: the spirit bomb, which is another brilliant use of wasting time without children suspecting the slightest thing. Also, death is never a big deal in the show. When someone dies, no one seemed to be too concerned since they would able to wish them back to life. This makes out to be a trait for kids' shows, since we don't want to scare kids into thinking death is inevitable, at least not yet.

To add to these blatantly linear story lines, lets look at the main character. Son Goku. The saiyan destined to destory Earth who, instead, bumped his head and forgot his violent nature. So we get a happy-go-lucky dude ("Hi! I'm Goku!" ) who always fights for good and always looks for a bigger challenge to face. BORING. For all the asinine development in his power levels, you'd think his character would evolve somewhat as well. Nope, Goku always stays the same (okay, so he changes into a kid in GT), never struggling with emotional vices and simply looking to beat the bad guy and eat a giant bowl of noodles. While that might sell for kids, as an adult, I like see a character who has layers to him/herself, with internal issues like an alcoholic dad that used to put out cigarettes on Goku's chest. Okay, maybe not that harsh, but still, something that would draw my interest. See, if they made Vegeta the main character and focused on his life, we would see so much more character development. I remember when Vegeta gets shot by Freiza, and he actually cries as he lays there dying, reflecting on his life (even though he'd be resurrected shortly after ). That by far was the most emotionally genuine moments of the show. Vegeta becomes the classic anti-hero (bad guy turned good), and although cliche, he made out to be one of the most interesting characters, always determined to outpower Kakarrot.

I could go on and further dissect the show, but I don't think its necessary. I just keep seeing these threads and people valiantly defending DBZ and all its greatness, yet all I remember is recycled fight sequences and people screaming for 10 minutes while Goku tries to draw energy from everyone on the planet.

[The Big Daddy C-Master]

Some comments:"I agree on everything in the OP.

I watched the entire series on Toonami back when it was first airing, and by the end of the series I was seriously wondering why I kept watching, I guess it was only to kind of complete the series, but I wasn't enjoying it. Allow me to summarize the story arcs even further:

Threat appears, it's the most badass threat in the galaxy!
Goku isn't here! It's up to the Z fighters to take this guy on!
15 minutes spent using the same 2 frames of animation as the heroes and villians stand in a line having internal monologues.
Finally they fight! Well, one of the heroes fights, while the others stand in the line watching their friend get slaughtered.
When one guy goes down in an unconscious heap, it's time for the next to take his thrashing. Apparently teaming up against a villian is unthinkable
When all hope seems lost, Goku appears! He and the bad guys power up dozens of times until Goku finally overcomes the villain and the day is saved!
It turns out that wasn't the most badass threat in the galaxy at all, and someone even more powerful is out there!
Repeat"

[The Big Daddy C-Master]

It doesn't make DBZ *good* but yes it did get a lot of Americans into anime and helped jumpstart the culture here.

[The Big Daddy C-Master]

Other shows did it much better. I think the iconic aspect is from nostalgia goggles.

[The Big Daddy C-Master]

Jan 7, 2016 15:01:48 GMT -5 MGNoxa said:

Jan 7, 2016 14:50:28 GMT -5 The Big Daddy C-Master said:

Other shows did it much better. I think the iconic aspect is from nostalgia goggles.

Yeah but Goku going Super Saiyan for the first time? Or the (forgot what it's called) the big Spirit Ball Bomb thing? Vegetal going Super Saiyan? Future Trunks killing that guy after he gave him his sword? Frieza (Freeza) is a pretty iconic villain and so is Cell. What about Cell killing Android 16 and 18? Or Gohan killing Cell? Then you've got the Kamehameha being one of the most recognisable attacks in Anime and Super Saiyan is now a common nerd/geek thing to describe something as.

I wanted to add a gif to this so I looked for some DBZ gifs and found the one below. I haven't watched an episode of DBZ for at least 10 years and I can remember this bit and losing my shit. Nostalgia is a powerful thing, just looking at this gif makes me feel excited again.

Fist of The North Star for instance had a lot of stuff that was copied and is quite old, but it's actually good.

DBZ is old and widely recognized which makes it iconic but not good. Powering up isn't new at all but I can't lie I liked some of the deaths. I think it has more to do with it being "first" for many people.

[The Big Daddy C-Master]

Influential doesn't mean good, something could have a bad influence too. Goku is the Superman of anime/manga/shonen but the writing is trash.

Many things they did were influenced by other things despite being more popular than the source. Batman is based off of Zorro for instance.

Cell being blown up is a great one.

[WarMachineRhodey]

For me anyway DBZ was good until the buu saga. Kid goten and Kid trunks being able to turn super sayian without having to go through any intense training or an event that made cause their emotions to allow the super sayian transformation killed it for me. Goku, gohan, vegeta, Future trunks had to endure some sort of emotional pain before turning super sayian. I would have accepted Kid trunks and Kid goten being able to go super sayian as gotenks but not individually so early in the saga. Also (incoming bias lol) Vegeta should have been the one the discover ssj3 imo. According to what goku said to reach it you just have to train rigorously which is an understatement to how much vegeta trained in the anime.

[The Big Daddy C-Master]

The Buu saga sucked big time.

Jan 7, 2016 15:25:47 GMT -5 MGNoxa said:

Jan 7, 2016 15:18:42 GMT -5 The Big Daddy C-Master said:

Influential doesn't mean good, something could have a bad influence too. Goku is the Superman of anime/manga/shonen but the writing is trash.

Many things they did were influenced by other things despite being more popular than the source. Batman is based off of Zorro for instance.

Cell being blown up is a great one.

Yeah popular stuff tends to influence stuff. I just mean that usually when something influences the stuff around it, it tends to be positive influence. Like The Dark Knight started a more serious comic book trend and as a result of that we've been living in a time where every other month there's a decent to really good comic book movie released. If Warcraft or the Assassin's Creed movie are good then they will encourage more video game movies. The Resident Evil movies make quite a bit of money but are generally considered garbage and as a result nobody has attempted to do anything similar to the Resident Evil movies, so not everything is influential in a bad way because some people have a brain. (I enjoy the Resident Evil movies)

Though at the same time mainstream stuff is often dumbed down and watered down for most so the best things cost more or are hidden gems.

[JACK-2]

Tbh, I'm going to have to disagree. DBZ was a gateway for some types of anime like serialized fighting shounen which is what alot of former DBZ fans got into. Stuff like Naruto, Bleach and so on. Because people tend to watch and like stuff that is similar to what drew them into something in the first place.

But, anime itself has alot of different genre's and they have different gateway shows relevant to them. For example, I got into Mecha from Gundam Wing and Japanese video games like Zone of the Enders ad Xenogears. Personally, Japanese videogames did a much bigger service in getting me into certain anime genres. Street Fighter got me into fighting games and Martial Arts in anime. Though those series were not like Dbz.

I think the DBZ wave was mostly back when anime was prevelant on TV. But, even then there were alot of good scifi anime on cable which were more engrossing and helped me get into anime. DBZ was mostly toonami tbh.

[JACK-2]

Jan 7, 2016 14:50:28 GMT -5 The Big Daddy C-Master said:

Other shows did it much better. I think the iconic aspect is from nostalgia goggles.

Yyh did it much MUCH better for example. Bastard! and Ultimate Muscle as well.

[The Big Daddy C-Master]

Jan 7, 2016 15:48:48 GMT -5 JACK-2 said:

Tbh, I'm going to have to disagree. DBZ was a gateway for some types of anime like serialized fighting shounen which is what alot of former DBZ fans got into. Stuff like Naruto, Bleach and so on. Because people tend to watch and like stuff that is similar to what drew them into something in the first place.

But, anime itself has alot of different genre's and they have different gateway shows relevant to them. For example, I got into Mecha from Gundam Wing and Japanese video games like Zone of the Enders ad Xenogears. Personally, Japanese videogames did a much bigger service in getting me into certain anime genres. Street Fighter got me into fighting games and Martial Arts in anime. Though those series were not like Dbz.

I think the DBZ wave was mostly back when anime was prevelant on TV. But, even then there were alot of good scifi anime on cable which were more engrossing and helped me get into anime. DBZ was mostly toonami tbh.

YYH blows DBZ out.

Are you disagreeing on the phase or the influence?

[JACK-2]

I disagree with the influence. There was definitely a phase foralt of people. Since that was the it show. But, DBZ fans overrate their influence. Not surprised, I've had DBZ tards argue Goku is as influential as Superman lol.

[The Big Daddy C-Master]

Jan 7, 2016 16:13:33 GMT -5 JACK-2 said:

I disagree with the influence. There was definitely a phase foralt of people. Since that was the it show. But, DBZ fans overrate their influence. Not surprised, I've had DBZ tards argue Goku is as influential as Superman lol.

Well no Superman is a worldwide icon. DBZ is popular in the sense that it got the average Joe into anime at the time. More sophisticated people like yourself did more research. I remember seeing Ninja Scroll before DBZ way back when myself.

[Great Dark Hero]

There are many things I am not necessarily fond of, especially sense I used to pay a lot of attention to this series (unfortunately).
For example...
- Humans (or non-Saiyan's) and any particularly powerful character reduced to fodder. Essentially, if the character is not Goku (and, now Vegeta if that last train wreck of a movie took place) then... they... are... screwed. Period.
- Obnoxious power leveling and power creeping (If anything, C-Master already has a clear idea of how much I cannot stand this idea. At a later time, I will elaborate on exactly why that is the case. Because, it is mouthful. Not a mouthful. But, an extremely large body of text that may or may not give healthy individuals a headache. I do not like giving headaches).
- Inner monologue is fine when done in moderation. Characters have a tendency of talking way too much during fight scenes.
- Buu Saga. Seriously.
- Super Saiyan "3" (and beyond). That shit is obnoxious as fuck. The Super Saiyan God forms are border-line fanfiction-worthy.
- Broly's general conceptualization and his character. Broly is hopelessly popular as a villain (non-canonical). But, for obvious reasons... he is not as good of a villain as people want to believe. Trust me on this. Just... trust me.
- It's absurd popularity, specifically in the West. The LCD will come up with very crazy arguments and fanboy nonsense. They will even try to apply "DBZ-logic" into other series that have little to nothing to do with the DBZ series in the first place.
- Series continues to not revolve around the Dragon Ball's themselves. The point of the Dragon Ball's kind of just fazed out to simply being a McGuffin for wishing folks back to life. Deus Ex Machina. God out of a machine. The point of the Dragon Ball's are seemingly trivialized.
- A lot of moves (very useful ones) tend to be disregarded, partially because of how stupid the characters are (i.e. shouting the name of a move when they clearly do have to. Destructo Disc for example. A lot of problems could have been nullified because of a Solar Flare as well).
- Lack of pragmatism in general (if a character is powering up... why are you folks just... standing there??)
- Time Travel plots have a tendency of being very screwy at best which is why the Cell Saga had its own problems.
- Drawn out fight sequences (many of which are not that well animated).
- Drawn out power up sequences.


(Who am I kidding. Me crying over spilt milk. DBZ is already a foregone conclusion).


The only things I like about DBZ as of now(as a 25 year old).
- The fight scene between Piccolo and Android 17
- Android 18.
- Goku vs Frieza, minus the filler and the "5 minute planetary destruction scenario". (Five minutes? Keep in mind that one episode is at least 35 to 45 minutes long. Several episode had already took place and the planet still is not gone).
- Trunks' approach in fighting.
- Bardock to an extent.
- Android 18.
- A handful of training montages.
- Vegeta's character development.
- Android 18.
- Picollo's character development.
- Android 18.
- The idea of the Android's... actually... I don't think "android" was used properly to describe 19, 20, 17, and 18. For 16, him being an "android" is true (Jinzoningun... whatever). But, those other four? I think the term "cyborg"... cybernetic organism is a better way to describe them as a species. They are just humans with a couple of cybernetic implants and/or modifications. This may have actually be acknowledged at some point... or it is a translation error... or something.
But, I digress. I like the idea of "android's" (or in this case, human characters) actually standing up to Saiyan characters. Unfortunately, that did not last too long after the Cell saga.
- When the character implement old (or new) techniques out of pragmatism. Which is not very often. (Basically what Trunks usually does. Then there are things such as Solar Flare, Destructo Disc, Special Beam Cannon... but, all of these keep becoming useless, 75% of the time is because the characters are just idiots.
- A handful of soundtracks.
- Bulma when she is not being a bitch.
- Launch when she is not being a bitch.
- Cell and Perfect Cell's design.
- Captain Ginyu's antics.
- Mr. Satan's antics.
- Videl.
- Cooler's final form, despite not having anything to do with canon.
- Android 18.

And, last but not least.

SPOILER: Click to show

Android 18.

SPOILER: Click to show

[The Big Daddy C-Master]

Those are the GDH posts I know and love! So full of detail!

[The Big Daddy C-Master]

Jan 8, 2016 1:56:39 GMT -5 Great Dark Hero said:

There are many things I am not necessarily fond of, especially sense I used to pay a lot of attention to this series (unfortunately).
For example...
- Humans (or non-Saiyan's) and any particularly powerful character reduced to fodder. Essentially, if the character is not Goku (and, now Vegeta if that last train wreck of a movie took place) then... they... are... screwed. Period.
- Obnoxious power leveling and power creeping (If anything, C-Master already has a clear idea of how much I cannot stand this idea. At a later time, I will elaborate on exactly why that is the case. Because, it is mouthful. Not a mouthful. But, an extremely large body of text that may or may not give healthy individuals a headache. I do not like giving headaches).
- Inner monologue is fine when done in moderation. Characters have a tendency of talking way too much during fight scenes.
- Buu Saga. Seriously.
- Super Saiyan "3" (and beyond). That shit is obnoxious as fuck. The Super Saiyan God forms are border-line fanfiction-worthy.
- Broly's general conceptualization and his character. Broly is hopelessly popular as a villain (non-canonical). But, for obvious reasons... he is not as good of a villain as people want to believe. Trust me on this. Just... trust me.
- It's absurd popularity, specifically in the West. The LCD will come up with very crazy arguments and fanboy nonsense. They will even try to apply "DBZ-logic" into other series that have little to nothing to do with the DBZ series in the first place.
- Series continues to not revolve around the Dragon Ball's themselves. The point of the Dragon Ball's kind of just fazed out to simply being a McGuffin for wishing folks back to life. Deus Ex Machina. God out of a machine. The point of the Dragon Ball's are seemingly trivialized.
- A lot of moves (very useful ones) tend to be disregarded, partially because of how stupid the characters are (i.e. shouting the name of a move when they clearly do have to. Destructo Disc for example. A lot of problems could have been nullified because of a Solar Flare as well).
- Lack of pragmatism in general (if a character is powering up... why are you folks just... standing there??)
- Time Travel plots have a tendency of being very screwy at best which is why the Cell Saga had its own problems.
- Drawn out fight sequences (many of which are not that well animated).
- Drawn out power up sequences.


(Who am I kidding. Me crying over spilt milk. DBZ is already a foregone conclusion).


The only things I like about DBZ as of now(as a 25 year old).
- The fight scene between Piccolo and Android 17
- Android 18.
- Goku vs Frieza, minus the filler and the "5 minute planetary destruction scenario". (Five minutes? Keep in mind that one episode is at least 35 to 45 minutes long. Several episode had already took place and the planet still is not gone).
- Trunks' approach in fighting.
- Bardock to an extent.
- Android 18.
- A handful of training montages.
- Vegeta's character development.
- Android 18.
- Picollo's character development.
- Android 18.
- The idea of the Android's... actually... I don't think "android" was used properly to describe 19, 20, 17, and 18. For 16, him being an "android" is true (Jinzoningun... whatever). But, those other four? I think the term "cyborg"... cybernetic organism is a better way to describe them as a species. They are just humans with a couple of cybernetic implants and/or modifications. This may have actually be acknowledged at some point... or it is a translation error... or something.
But, I digress. I like the idea of "android's" (or in this case, human characters) actually standing up to Saiyan characters. Unfortunately, that did not last too long after the Cell saga.
- When the character implement old (or new) techniques out of pragmatism. Which is not very often. (Basically what Trunks usually does. Then there are things such as Solar Flare, Destructo Disc, Special Beam Cannon... but, all of these keep becoming useless, 75% of the time is because the characters are just idiots.
- A handful of soundtracks.
- Bulma when she is not being a bitch.
- Launch when she is not being a bitch.
- Cell and Perfect Cell's design.
- Captain Ginyu's antics.
- Mr. Satan's antics.
- Videl.
- Cooler's final form, despite not having anything to do with canon.
- Android 18.

And, last but not least.

SPOILER: Click to show

Android 18.

SPOILER: Click to show

It's worse than that. DBZ often had good guys DELIBERATELY let the enemy power up "for a true fight" and then it bites them in the ass. The Cell saga had loads of this nonsense. The Buu saga had the depowering to Kid Buu just so Goku could fight someone on his level.


Not to mention Bulma was a MAIN character who got pushed to the side. All for dumb fighting. Dragonball was far superior to DBZ for sure.