Video Game Tier List Thread.

[The Big Daddy C-Master]

Made this thread for overall tier discussion, to keep it where you can actually find stuff without it being washed away on the other thread.

This way it's easy to follow as the game develops.

Anyways, on to SFV. The tiers are still newer and there's some debating but some things are solid.

Here's the most detailed list I've seen so far from anybody else. Vesper Arcade.



Time Stamps for part 1:

Rashid 3:00
F.A.N.G 14:40
Zangief 26:11
Laura 48:08
R.Mika 1:04:00
Ken 1:26:35
Cammy 1:46:30
Birdie 2:08:00



==============================

Time Stamps for part 2:

Necalli 0:14
Dhalsim 18:43
Karin 32:18
Ryu 51:00
M.Bison 1:13:15
Vega 1:33:43
Nash 1:48:57
Chun-Li 2:14:02

[The Big Daddy C-Master]

My current list is this, no order in the groups:

Group 1 (A+):

Ryu
Nash
Chun
Karin
Dhalsim

Group 2 (A):

Necalli
Bison
Ken
Birdie
Vega

Group 3 (B+):

Cammy
Mika
Laura

Group 4 (B):

Rashid
F.A.N.G
Zangief

I'm debating putting Mika at high and Bison at the top, but I'm going to be conservative now.

No character is "bad" or Dan-tier, they're all good in the right hands. My list goes from A+ to B for this reason.

The best characters have the best overall tools and damage in regards to their risk/reward compared to the other characters. The lower characters have to work harder.

Alex is a work in progress, but I suspect him to be high with his great normals and damage along with his parry.

[The Big Daddy C-Master]

I'm super close to wanting to move Ken and Necalli up. I still think Nash and Chun are definitely better. Ken might be about the same as Ryu, MAYBE better. Necalli does insane damage while being versatile and Vega is just pretty much a complete character.

[The Big Daddy C-Master]

I've been meaning to do a post on why Chun Li is top tier in this game and cheap since I've been seeing some (clueless) people say that Chun is "mediocre" or "nothing special". This post will be in detail (of course) as I feel this site is best suited to that than the usual spam crap you get at other sites.

Let's see if I can remember everything. I'll probably have to make updates as I remember them lol.

Chun Li is retarded good because:

Mobility and Neutral:

1. Some of the best mobility in the game with a fast walk speed (second highest forward speed after Vega), great dash and multiple jump options.
2. She has amazing normals that have crazy range, great start up and active frames, and the hitbox surpasses the hurtbox meaning hers are more likely to stuff yours than the other way around.
3. This combined with her fast recovery, slow fireball makes it so she can approach you with next to no fear since you have to deal with the fireball and her dumb pokes.
4. Her multiple jumps give her many ways to make her approaches ambiguous in hard to anti-air. She has 3. Her normal jump, her v-skill jump, her flip-crossup jump, and four if you count her wall jump.
5. She has arguably the most ridiculous anti air in the game with her absurdly good st. lk which anti airs well and allows her to do an easy crossup and even stay in front and in many cases she doesn't need to dash which makes it even more ambiguous.
6. Her ex legs are an amazing whiff punish tool at 5 frames and -2 and also lead to a knockdown.
7. She can slide under fireballs (and combo into her ridiculous V-trigger).
8. Her IALL is just BS.
9. She is the only character in the game with a 3f cr lk. This makes her even more of a pain to open up as it is fast and hits low. She can also combo with it too. Yay.

Her Instant Air Lightning Legs:

1. This move is the best divekick in the game and it doesn't even require meter. It's much better than characters who are completely inferior with lower health like Cammy which is just a disgrace.
2. It can be done off of a forward AND neutral jump where other special divekicks can't.
3. It has more leniency.
4. It is safer. You are on frame advantage when you do it and you end up in their face. Cammy is negative on all of her non-special divekicks and has to space it very specifically to combo.
5. Chun can combo into her full bnb combo on a standing opponent leading to ridiculous damage. Cammy needs to score a counter hit to do this and can only get lights most of the time for about 1/2 the damage.
6. It's harder to stuff due to the hitbox and the aforementioned reasons. You have to predict it and even if you poke, you can still get stuffed into a full combo.
7. Combined with her fireball and neutral jump hk, it becomes obnoxious as neutral jumps are already good and now you can delay it on the way down.
8. She can even combo it off of head stomps. My god.
9. It beats throws and cr jab at the right range, which is supposed to be the one way to blow it up.
10. It leads to left and right mixups off of V-skill and stomp.

Her Damage:

1. Does more damage off of a 3 frame jab than many characters get off of their medium into heavy except this can punish many more things and can be used defensively, even on wakup.
2. One of the only (if not the exclusive) character(s) who gets lights into mediums which was not supposed to be in this game. She gets TWO mediums too, one of them into a low medium.
3. Her st mp she can combo into is 5 frames and +3 on block, it also leaves her right in your face so if you miss the confirm you get to continue pressure. Target combos and heavies are negative so if you miss your lose your turn.
4. Her combo does 215 off of the jab with amazing corner carry and knockdown. Most characters only get about 1/2 of this off of a light.
5. The combo isn't as bad as people make it seem either. Just delay the bird kick slightly. Otherwise just use her heavy legs which still grants you over 200 damage.
6. Cr jab to st mp is a 3 frame gap trap, so you'll even frame trap people in your instant pressure, high damage combo. Wonderful.

Her V Trigger:

1. Her V trigger is obscene. Take the best character in the game and basically give them a Necalli level buff. That's her trigger.
2. It allows her to stuff fireballs with b. hp.
3. It allows her to shoot her hp fireballs across the screen.
4. She gets exclusive combos like combo off of her OVERHEAD (she's the only one in the game who can do this), combo off of her f. hk that goes over lows. Also the only character who can do that.
5. She gets increased damage and stun which makes combos easier.
6. She can combo cr lk, cr lp, cr mk which is very hard to defend against.
7. She can combo her air normals into each other.
8. She can combo b hk into super with V-trigger.
9. It doesn't go away based on usage, only duration also the only character who really gets this outside of Necalli's V-trigger of course and his is 3 bars.
10. Her V trigger is only two bars.
11. Certain normals air juggle too. I got two st mk on an aerial opponent.
12. Multi-hit property allows it to shut down armored moves like Zangief's st hp in one poke. This is really strong against characters who rely on these as a major part of their gameplan. It also changes parries as well.

Also:

1. She gets a crossup proof reversal which kills just about every mixup and is harder to punish. You can just delay it for jumps and it has a vacuum effect too.
2. Some nice crush counters like b hp which makes her a wall.
3. She has NO bad matchups. You get all of them in your favor. She either outpokes, out outzones, or has some other tool to deal with every matchup.
4. She's essentially Vega with great anti airs, great zoning, a great reversal, and a great divekick. In other words BS.
5. She even has ambiguous headstomp setups lol. Just stupid.


She gets all of this at the cost of 50 health (big whoop, she still has 100 stun.) She's the Akuma/Mr. Karate/Kim of the game and she's well due for some nerfs.

Now I hope you guys understand and the morons can STFU about her being mediocre.

Thank You.

[The Big Daddy C-Master]

Updated tier list:

Group 1 (A+):

Chun
Nash
Ryu
Dhalsim
Necalli
Ken
Karin

Group 2 (A):

Vega
Bison
Mika
Alex
Birdie

Group 3 (B+):

Cammy
Laura

Group 4 (B):

Rashid
F.A.N.G
Zangief

Tried to place Alex for fun. He might be a bit high for some people, but I took a bit of a risk on this one. He has stupid damage and stun with great normals and mixups and decent mobility. "Bad on wakeup" isn't a good excuse since most characters are.

If Birdie is at that tier and Alex is a more mobile version than he is essentially, he should be in around the same tier level.

I'm considering making a 5th tier at this point. Game is decently balanced but it's not super balanced.

Guile is looking pretty crazy as well. I'll give him time but I wouldn't be surprised if he's up there with Ken and the rest.

[The Big Daddy C-Master]

Here's F. Champ's tier list.

Ryu
Chun
Nash
Ken
Necalli
Karin
Vega
Cammy
Dhalsim
R.Mika
Laura
Birdie
Guile
Alex
Rashid
Fang
Bison
Zangief

It's solid IMO, but it seems like it had some trolling in it with Bison being so low and Dhalsim being really low for what he said like a week before.

[JACK-2]

Filipinochamps tier list

[The Big Daddy C-Master]

Yea I posted that earlier, but yours looks much neater.

I think it is decent. Don't believe Bison is 2nd worst. He has the same issue Cammy does with opening people up... until he gets V-trigger which makes him a mixup monster.


I also think Alex and Guile are being underrated too.

[The Big Daddy C-Master]

Updated tier list:

Group 1 (A+):

Chun
Ryu
Nash
Necalli
Ken
Karin
Dhalsim


Group 2 (A):

Vega
Bison
Mika
Birdie

Group 3 (B+):

Guile
Alex
Cammy
Laura

Group 4 (B):

Rashid
F.A.N.G
Zangief


Ok, I made some changes. I brought Alex down temporarily to be conservative, but I still think he's underrated atm. I also added Guile who I think has some potential.

The top tiers are the same. Just as dumb and low risk/high reward as ever. The next tier is still good but not as good as the top. I might bring Birdie down over time but I think Mika stays at high tier with her craziness and solid neutral game as Fuudo demonstrated and like I always said. She has a normal for a variety of situations that allow her to be a wall if she chooses to be. Add in her insane passion press and I think high tier is fair.

I'm considering bringing F.A.N.G up a bit. He has good normals and solid zoning with some nice pressure and frame advantage. Sonic Fox and Xian are showing more of this character's potential.

It is odd in this game that 7 are at the top, but they are still better than the rest. Stupid versatility, damage, and options, they're also rewarding at any level of play. I expect some nerfs for them at the end of the year lol.

[JACK-2]

Mika's better than Cammy? I agree with Guile, I heard people saying he's not as strong as they thought he would be. The top tier in this game is crazy, though.

[The Big Daddy C-Master]

I think it's early for Guile and people are selling him a bit short. I put him in the tier I did because he's solid along with the others there like Cammy. Not bad but other characters have better options and cover those bases better. Guile still has strong all around material like Ryu but weaker in some areas.

May 23, 2016 15:42:08 GMT -5 JACK-2 said:

Mika's better than Cammy? I agree with Guile, I heard people saying he's not as strong as they thought he would be. The top tier in this game is crazy, though.

Mika gets tremendous reward for landing a hit and passion press is broken and can be hit confirmed off of a jab. It's safe on block, fast startup, and can be option selected in two ways and leads to corner carry anywhere on the screen. Even if you put Mika in the corner she can just mash it out and catch you through a blockstring putting you there and killing you.

I have lost with 80% health leads to nonsense exactly like that. Her corner game is absurd as you have to guess or get stunned since her meaty and throw cover so many options.

Contrary to what everyone wanted to say, her neutral isn't even bad as Fuudo used her in neutral with no nonsense and made it to grand finals. Many of her moves leave her plus on block and push her forward and her v trigger is one of the best in the game and costs two bars.

It lets her get in for free, escape pressure, gives her an insane mixup game and it leads to an easy stun and reset. I will post some videos of Fuudo when I get home but Mika has great potential.

I almost want to put her at the top but I will wait on that. Chances are much of her cheap stuff will be nerfed. After playing Mika and Cammy I feel I can catch a match with less hassle and make more mistakes. Cammy is more unforgiving.

Vanilla versions of games tend to have bad balance. This game had a year long beta but clearly some characters get too much reward for the risk they take.

[JACK-2]

May 10, 2016 14:07:15 GMT -5 The Big Daddy C-Master said:

Yea I posted that earlier, but yours looks much neater.

I think it is decent. Don't believe Bison is 2nd worst. He has the same issue Cammy does with opening people up... until he gets V-trigger which makes him a mixup monster.


I also think Alex and Guile are being underrated too.

I dunno, Guiles normals aren't as solid as they should be. I wish he had nash normals and getting around is projectiles doesn't seem to hard. But, we'll see.

[The Big Daddy C-Master]

May 25, 2016 10:46:39 GMT -5 JACK-2 said:

May 10, 2016 14:07:15 GMT -5 The Big Daddy C-Master said:

Yea I posted that earlier, but yours looks much neater.

I think it is decent. Don't believe Bison is 2nd worst. He has the same issue Cammy does with opening people up... until he gets V-trigger which makes him a mixup monster.


I also think Alex and Guile are being underrated too.

I dunno, Guiles normals aren't as solid as they should be. I wish he had nash normals and getting around is projectiles doesn't seem to hard. But, we'll see.

What does that mean "as solid as they should be"? Just because a character doesn't have to top tier tools doesn't mean they're bad.

People said that about Mika but in reality Mika and Guile have a variety of normals that work in certain situations. Guile has a fast walk speed (3rd fastest and faster than Cammy for some reason.), overhead, normals that go over lows, great anti airs, high damage, and space control. You can't just pick one normal and mash it like Karin.

You said Guile doesn't have high damage? He has some of the highest damage in the game and his normals are definitely better than Mika's.

It's not just about range. It's hitboxes, frame advantage, damage, and space control. Guile has a variety of moves to cover a variety of situations.

Are you saying he's bottom tier? I am not buying it and people should have a basic and applicable understanding of the games before tiers are suggested or else you end up with eventhubs tier list.

You think Guile belongs in the same tier as Zangief?

If you take Guile and Ryu who is top tier Guile has higher potential damage, better walk speed, better zoning.

Ryu has a meterless reversal, a parry, more health and stun. Both have functional normals. Even if Ryu is better it doesn't mean Guile is way worse. How is he so much worse than Ryu that he deserves to be in bottom tier.

Most people place characters based on frustration with their own results. Tiers shouldn't matter to you yet because you need to get the basics under grasp.

You went from Nash who was top tier to Necalli who was top tier. Now you want to change to Guile and change again. Changing characters constantly won't improve your game. We all get annoyed with characters sometimes. If I kept changing characters I would have never improved.

Dieminion is basing his opinion of Guile on Sf4 Guile but this isn't Sf4. Chun Li has changed and people dropped her and Cammy is definitely not as strong as Sf4 Cammy. This game is new. He's a pro and if he feels he'll win with a higher tier or something he should do it but that doesn't mean Guile is bad.

[JACK-2]

I change characters often because I hadn't played SF for almost a decade and I narrowed it down to characters with a DP. You correctly told me that DP isn't the most important thing and building up your defense is and you were right. Because despite having a DP, guile isn't that good. Let's go over what you said:

Walk speed isn't that important for a character who's pressing back all the time, though. If he was like Ryu with a DF motion then I would agree. Also, unlike Ryu who has a forward hitting move that gets around projectiles [Tatsu]. Guile doesn't really have anything like that. His normals unlike Mika's don't lead to heavy stun or damage off a random hit nor do they stun well or do great damage like Nash. He needs meter to do real damage like with crouching strong > Flash > CA. But, Mika and Nash have great Bnb that have great stun and damage without meter. His overhead is slow and his normals have poor range.

Zoning is his only real advantage, tbh. But, projectiles are fairly easy to get around with someone like Ryu with his tatsu and other characters can get around them as well.

I agree with your assessment with Ryu, Necalli and Nash. But, I disagree with Guile. He might be bottom five.

[The Big Daddy C-Master]

May 25, 2016 11:41:11 GMT -5 JACK-2 said:

I change characters often because I hadn't played SF for almost a decade and I narrowed it down to characters with a DP. You correctly told me that DP isn't the most important thing and building up your defense is and you were right. Because despite having a DP, guile isn't that good. Let's go over what you said:

Walk Speed: Walk speed isn't that important for a character who's pressing back all the time, though.
Normals: Unlike Mika they don't lead to real damage minus his crouching strong > Flash > CA. Mika has some crazy stun combos and Nashes Bnb has great stun and damage without meter
His overhead is slow and his normals have poor range.

Zoning: That's his only real advantage, tbh. But, projectiles are fairly easy to get around, everyone and their other has some anti-projectile move or some move with armor to bypass projectiles.

I agree with your assessment with Ryu, Necalli and Nash. But, I disagree with Guile. I dunno what tier he's in, but he is watered down.

You weren't picking characters because you thought they were fun or out of appeal. You complained that Nash has "bad defense" (which he doesn't) and you wanted a band-aid fix to the solution. Many of the things I was telling you now I mentioned to you in Sf4 last year. They are habits you have to eliminate and swapping characters won't fix it. If you told me you were just picking characters for fun to see what sticks that would be different. You were asking me who you should use to fix the problem or saying it was the game. That's what I meant.

Having a top tier walk speed is nasty because he gets great pressure off of it and can get out of bad situations easily. Chun Li has charge moves and top tier walk speed. Do you think she would be as good is she was slow?

Stop playing Guile like he is only defensive. You chose to play him that way. Cammy doesn't play like sf4 either. If I tried to make her a divekick and mixup monster she would play even worse. Guile has some of the most powerful corner game in the entire game due to it.

Doesn't have Mika damage? So you base a character as bad because one character who is ridiculous is that area is better than that character at it?

Does that mean Vega has bad normals becaus he doesn't get Mika's damage and setplay? What about Chun? Mika doesn't have Guile's mobility, zoning, defensive options, and dp either. She also doesn't have his anti air options. If you're going to say a character has bad normals I want to hear why. Not just "Mika does more damage." people were saying Mika has bad normals too. Guile does more damage than Chun and Cammy so is his normals better than theirs by that logic?

Every overhead is slow. Show me frame data that shows Guile has a much slower one than the others. Laura and Chun have the slowest overheads.

Guile has knee bazooka and backfist which move him considerably forward like Nash. Bad range?

His hop kick goes over lows AND moves him front and back with good range and he even has a crouch walk too. I think Guile's rushdown is even scarier than his defense sometimes.


Since I had a point on those other areas don't you think I might have a point on this? If you don't think he's at least functional you must think he's bad and he has everything he needs to be a solid character.


I want frame data and hitboxes suggesting bad normals so I can see where you're getting this conclusion.

[JACK-2]

May 25, 2016 12:42:11 GMT -5 The Big Daddy C-Master said:

Having a top tier walk speed is nasty because he gets great pressure off of it and can get out of bad situations easily. Chun Li has charge moves and top tier walk speed. Do you think she would be as good is she was slow?

Stop playing Guile like he is only defensive. You chose to play him that way. Cammy doesn't play lke sf4 either. If I tried to make her a divekick and mixup monster she would play even worse. Guile has some of the most powerful corner game in the entire game due to it.

Doesn't have Mika damage? So you base a character as bad because one character who is ridiculous is that area is better than that character at it?

Does that mean Vega has bad normals becaus he doesn't get Mika's damage and setplay? What about Chun? Mika doesn't have Guile's mobility, zoning, defensive options, and dp either. She also doesn't have his anti air options. If you're going to say a character has bad normals I want to hear why. Not just "Mika does more damage." people were saying Mika has bad normals too. Guile does more damage than Chun and Cammy so is his normals better than theirs by that logic?

Every overhead is slow. Show me frame data that shows Guile has a much slower one than the others. Laura and Chun have the slowest overheads.

Guile has knee bazooka and backfist which move him considerably forward like Nash. Bad range?

His hop kick goes over lows AND moves him front and back with good range and he even has a crouch walk too. I think Guile's rushdown is even scarier than his defense sometimes.


Since I had a point on those other areas don't you think I might have a point on this? If you don't think he's at least functional you must think he's bad and he has everything he needs to be a solid character.


I want frame data and hitboxes suggesting bad normals so I can see where you're getting this conclusion.

Chun doesn't have the same game plan as Guile, though. You don't depend on projectiles nearly as much as you do with Guile. Chun also has God like range with her normals, Guile does not. Even if you walk forward to pressure your opponent, when you open them up. Guile doesn't deal much stun or damage unless you have meter. His corner pressure is amazing, I'll give you that, but he isn't so scary outside of that very specific situation.


I brought up Mika because you mentioned her. The character I originally was discussing was Nash and it wasn't even damage it was range of normals. You said Mika has bad normals or at least that's what people were complaining about, but Guile has poor range in his normals AND he doesn't get crazy damage off them. That's what I said, I never said he sucks because he's not like Mika. So, I already explained why.

His backfist is garbage, have you played him? His back first has worst range than Nash, with Nash I could hit from a much greater distance from a boom. You can straight up avoid Guiles back fist by crouching.

His hop kick got beaten by Giefs crouching RH crush just when I was playing him today. I mean even if that's a specific situation, that's still bad and his hop kick is his only viable far reaching normal. Cr.Foward has no range and Cr.RH leaves you free. Knee Bazooka is descent for getting you in into them, but not for stuffing them from a far. Guile has one real tool to poke people from a distance and that's his hop kick.

Bad normals is from the range not the speed. His speed of his normals is fine, but I did say his overheard was slow. So, I'll look for framedata to support that claim.

[The Big Daddy C-Master]

May 25, 2016 12:54:11 GMT -5 JACK-2 said:

May 25, 2016 12:42:11 GMT -5 The Big Daddy C-Master said:

Having a top tier walk speed is nasty because he gets great pressure off of it and can get out of bad situations easily. Chun Li has charge moves and top tier walk speed. Do you think she would be as good is she was slow?

Stop playing Guile like he is only defensive. You chose to play him that way. Cammy doesn't play lke sf4 either. If I tried to make her a divekick and mixup monster she would play even worse. Guile has some of the most powerful corner game in the entire game due to it.

Doesn't have Mika damage? So you base a character as bad because one character who is ridiculous is that area is better than that character at it?

Does that mean Vega has bad normals becaus he doesn't get Mika's damage and setplay? What about Chun? Mika doesn't have Guile's mobility, zoning, defensive options, and dp either. She also doesn't have his anti air options. If you're going to say a character has bad normals I want to hear why. Not just "Mika does more damage." people were saying Mika has bad normals too. Guile does more damage than Chun and Cammy so is his normals better than theirs by that logic?

Every overhead is slow. Show me frame data that shows Guile has a much slower one than the others. Laura and Chun have the slowest overheads.

Guile has knee bazooka and backfist which move him considerably forward like Nash. Bad range?

His hop kick goes over lows AND moves him front and back with good range and he even has a crouch walk too. I think Guile's rushdown is even scarier than his defense sometimes.


Since I had a point on those other areas don't you think I might have a point on this? If you don't think he's at least functional you must think he's bad and he has everything he needs to be a solid character.


I want frame data and hitboxes suggesting bad normals so I can see where you're getting this conclusion.

Chun doesn't have the same game plan as Guile, though. You don't depend on projectiles nearly as much as you do with Guile. Chun has good like range with her normals, Guile does not. Even if you walk forward to pressure your opponent, Guile doesn't deal much stun or damage.

Assuming you can get them to the corner then you can theoretically lock them down. But, that's a very specific situation. Outside the corner, not so much.

I brought up Mika because you mentioned her. The character I originally was discussing was Nash and it wasn't even damage it was range of normals. You said Mika has bad normals or at least that's what people were complaining about, but Guile has poor range in his normals AND he doesn't get crazy damage off them. That's what I said, I never said he sucks because he's not like Mika.

His backfist is garbage, have you played him? His back first has worst range than Nash, with Nash I could hit from a much greater distance from a boom. You can straight up avoid his back fist by crouching.

His hop kick got beaten by Giefs crouching RH crush just when I was playing him today. I mean even if that's a specific situation, but his hop kick is his only far reaching normal. Cr.Foward has no range and Cr.RH leaves you free. Knee Bazooka is descent.

Bad normals is from the range not the speed. His speed of his normals is fine, but I did say his overheard was slow. So, I'll look for framedata to support that claim.

See now you're moving goal posts. What character has Chun's normals and speed with Mika's setplay and damage? Nobody fits that criteria.

I mentioned that Mika has specific normals. Meaning if you pick one and spam it that it won't work. You have to pick the right one for each situation ala Guile. If you are just spamming normals it won't work.

Guile has a varied set of normals in his tool set. You can charge his boom while doing his normals which is charge 101. Just because a player doesn't use a character properly doesn't mean their normals are bad. Guile has a more offensive style in this game. Stop playing him like he's Sf4 since this game is different. Is Cammy bad because she doesn't have her toolset from sf4 since she was probably nerfed the most.

Who else zones like Guile with his mobility, anti airs, and wide set of moves? Chun cheap comes close but that doesn't mean Guile has bad normals.

[JACK-2]

How am I moving the Goal post? I started with comparisons with Nash not Mika or Ryu. I never brought them in, you did and I made the rebuttal. I never made the principle argument that Guile is bad because he can't get high damage off random normals. I said unlike Mika he cannot do the aforementioned, those are two completely different statements. I did say he's bad because of the range in his normals, though. Guile traditionally has great range with his normals long before SF4. Nash has the type of ranges that Guile should have but doesn't. Furthermore, his damage and stun is not good as compared with Nash. His zoning game isn't really that scary because his punishes are lame without meter. He can barely backfist punish from projectiles. Mobility? walking forward doesn't afford you an advantage because you lose charge and your normals barely compensate. The tierlist hasn't solidified yet, but you're listing his traditional advantages, but in game his a watered down Nash.

You weren't picking characters because you thought they were fun or out of appeal. You complained that Nash has "bad defense" (which he doesn't) and you wanted a band-aid fix to the solution. Many of the things I was relling you now I mentioned to you in Sf4 last year. They are habits you have to eliminate and swapping characters won't fix it. If you told me you were just pickijg characters for fun to see what sticks that would be different. You were asking me who you should use to fix the problem or saying it was the game. That's what I meant.

I admitted I was wrong about Nash. So, I don't see why bringing him up proves anything. You explained the whole DP thing and I agree'd. What relevance does that have NOW?

[JACK-2]

Here's his frame data:

docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1976rt8B91PqVCeYJAmcnW1uwVJ0H03QJtV-dJC5ohL8/edit#gid=992184813

First overhead has a startup of 21 frames.

Also, all his Booms have the same frame data and slow recovery. Plus you can't spam them in the corner anymore. Here's what Viscant had to say:

"I'm not going to call Guile's normals BAD after a week of play. But I am going to say that some of Guile's traditionally important buttons are underwhelming. Let's start with the crouching MK. This is traditionally THE Guile button, a button he can use to set range while holding both a back and down charge. The frames are virtually identical on this SF4 to SF5. In SF4 it's 7f startup, 14f recovery, -4 on block. In SF5 it's 7f startup, 15f recovery, -5 on block. Yet the move feels so much worse in this game mostly due to range. This move is expected to be a dominant mid range poke yet in SF5 it barely even qualifies. Part of that is just SF5; Guile's crouching MK isn't significantly shorter in range than say Necalli's or Ken's or Chun-Li's but it just FEELS weak. Since he's a charge character that can't attack in the same ways those characters can, the shorter range bothers him more. The followup on crouching MK, the towards+MP overhead is also interruptible. All characters, even those without a 3 frame jab can mash and interrupt that string on block.

Guile's air options are also shorter than it feels they should be. Guile jumping HK is traditionally a move with huge horizontal range. This is so that he can throw sonic booms and shut down neutral jumps but still land safely. In SF5 jumping HK is angled downwards and is a fine normal for a jumpin but it doesn't serve that traditional purpose. The jumping MK is animated similar to the old jumping HK but it doesn't have much range at all and is not really a notable button.

And on the topic of short range, Guile's standing MP has almost negative range. It's a good button for frame trapping purposes and grants a combo followup on hit, either a chain to the backfist or a link to crouching LP. Both standing LP and standing MP are +3 on block, ideal for frame trapping but it's almost impossible to exaggerate how small the hitbox on standing MP is. If Guile's boot is touching another character's foot it's still possible for standing MP to whiff!

So obviously range is going to be an issue, both setting range for frame traps and pushing the opponent back in the poking game. That means it's going to be even more important to identify the best range buttons he has and to use them as well as possible. It looks like those tools are going to be the backfist, the step kick (back or neutral HK), the straight punch (back+HP) and the sobat kicks (towards/back+MK).

The backfist whiffs crouchers like in SF4 but it's still worth going for since it's Guile's best crush counter move allowing for a dash in combo. The back+HP crush counter doesn't allow much of a followup on crush counter but it's 8f startup and only -1 on block so it's good to end blockstrings with. Both the forward sobat and the step kicks move Guile forward a bit giving him extra range. On counter hit the sobat allows a link into a crouching LP meaning that instead of just being a minor poke like in other SF games, this could potentially be an important button."

He also said what you've been saying:

"So is Guile a good character or not? It's really too early to say. It was easier to judge Alex's strength relative to the rest of the cast because other characters had tools similar to Alex's toolset. He didn't have a reversal but his EX elbow functioned similar to Laura and Mika's armor moves. His grab range was pretty much the same as other grapplers and his +3 move (lariat) was similar to Mika's +3 move (Lady Mika).

This isn't the case with Guile. Guile is more his own character. You look at other charge characters with keepaway potential like FANG and Chun-Li and Guile doesn't have much in common with either of them. This is likely why there's so much divergence of opinion when it comes to Guile's relative strength, because nobody is really sure how Guile's tools are going to work at the top level.

What Guile's good at he's the best in the game at. No character can put up bigger corner combos under optimal situations than Guile can. And no character can outzone Guile at full screen. Characters who already have a hard time against projectiles like Zangief are already starting to see Guile as a nightmare matchup. The 2 hit sonic cross breaks armor and can force an opponent into uncomfortable movement. Combo Fiend swore up and down that this time around Guile vs. Bison is going to be a fair match and not a 7-3 or worse type matchup but I imagine Guile will have at least 1 horrendously unbalanced matchup in his favor just due to one character or another not being able to deal with normal sonic booms and LP sonic crosses.

But Guile's fundamental weaknesses are glaring. His mid range poking game is shaky at best and the weakness of crouching MK is almost too large to ignore. Beyond just being a stubby button it makes Guile very easy to shimmy. Crouching LK has almost no range, crouching MK looks like a bad button and a blocked crouching HK is a “please kill me” button on block. Given how people are playing this game, that's a weakness that he's going to have a hard time overcoming. Are his strong corner combos, fast week speed and full screen zoning enough to overcome that? We'll see. "

The difference in the green point is you think his pros will help him in the end, I don't.

www.brokentier.com/blogs/brokentierblog/100980417-hit-the-ground-running-12-intro-to-guile

Chris G's opinion

www.twitlonger.com/show/n_1sol610

[The Big Daddy C-Master]

I'm at home now so I can address this properly with some facts and information. Nothing personal of course, but I want accuracy.

The problem with those assessments from other players is that the vast majority of it is based on SF4 which is irrelevant to SF5. They're smart people but I always hate when people do that because this is an entirely different game.
This is the same argument people used to say Ryu's normals were bad. "They're stubby." Same with Ken. The same logic with their zoning, "You can't just spam fireballs anymore." It doesn't matter what SF4 had anymore than it does for any other character from any other game. Hell SF4 Cammy was WAY stronger than SF5 Cammy in pretty much every way, does that mean she's bad here because she doesn't play like she does in SF4? Arrow doesn't hit low, divekick is much worse, frame advantage is much worse, damage is much worse, no airthrow, etc....

Let's look at her CvS2 normals. St. hp. 3f startup , +10 on block. Are there any normals in the game that have that kind of frame data? No, I guess she's bad then. What characters do in other games is irrelevant and those are knee jerk reactions.
Tier lists grow over time but we are starting to see certain trends in characters based on their risk reward assessments. Based on your logic that it hasn't solidified, how can you say Guile is even a bad character? What is he lacking that makes him a non-functioning character? I don't see any character as "bad" but I do think some are better than others, that's why my tier list stops at B. If you're going to make an assessment why a character with insane damage, great mobility, zoning, and anti airing is a "bad" character I want some solid evidence by it. Not just "I feel" based on wrong information or playing a character the wrong way.

The truth is no projectile character in the game is simply designed for sitting back and chucking fireballs, not even Dhalsim, even he can rushdown and has strong mixup options. Almost every fireball character is top tier outside of Laura and F.A.N.G and even they are solid and can fight well up close. Fang is also a charge character too btw and he has a strong pressure game. Only bad F.A.N.G players just sit back and use fireballs constantly. This game requires you to mix it up. Don't say that Guile's "gameplan" is just chucking fireballs because you feel it should be. It's just not true. SF4 also had a ton of anti-fireball tools and the zoning characters were much weaker up close. Remember SF4 Dhalsim?

May 25, 2016 13:20:30 GMT -5 JACK-2 said:

How am I moving the Goal post? I started with comparisons with Nash not Mika or Ryu. I never brought them in, you did and I made the rebuttal. I never made the principle argument that Guile is bad because he can't get high damage off random normals. I said unlike Mika he cannot do the aforementioned, those are two completely different statements. I did say he's bad because of the range in his normals, though. Guile traditionally has great range with his normals long before SF4. Nash has the type of ranges that Guile should have but doesn't. Furthermore, his damage and stun is not good as compared with Nash. His zoning game isn't really that scary because his punishes are lame without meter. He can barely backfist punish from projectiles. Mobility? walking forward doesn't afford you an advantage because you lose charge and your normals barely compensate. The tierlist hasn't solidified yet, but you're listing his traditional advantages, but in game his a watered down Nash.

You're moving goalposts because you keep using the argument that "character x doesn't have what character y (who is the best in the game at the area) has, so therefore he must be bad in the area period."
By that logic you can say Karin is bad because she's a watered down Chun Li.

You can say that Cammy is a watered down Karin and therefore she has bad normals too. Does that logic work? Even if character A is better than character B it doesn't make character B bad.
I didn't list traditional strengths of anything. I listed his strengths in *this* game, with more character familiarity it would be clear I was doing that. Your argument is like the argument the other players were making about him being in SF4 which is irrelevant because this is a different game. I said he had specific normals like Mika and that people said Mika had bad normals too, you then mention her damage output. Which in this instance you were also wrong because Guile has some of the highest damage output in the game. Exactly where are you getting his low damage? I've fought good Guiles and they can do 40% or so easily with low cost and that's not even the crazy stuff. Many players have hit 600+ damage in the corner which is the highest in the game and it's easy.

You also say many other inaccurate things. You said his overhead was "slow" despite it not being one of the slowest ones in the game. In fact it's the second FASTEST in the entire game. This is what I'm talking about. People imagine things and then it's suddenly fact. It's easy and quick to look up. I don't mean it in a mean way but how can people say characters are bad if they have the facts mixed up? Reminds me of when people said Cammy had better normals than Karin, or that she walked faster than Vega, or out damaged Ryu. Let's look things up first.

20 frames: Ryu
21 frames: Guile
22 frames: Alex, Birdie, Karin, Laura, Nash, Vega
23 frames: Ken, Necalli, Rashid
26 frames: Chun Li
---------------------

Anyways back to these normals. You keep saying his game plan is bad. Do you know he has multiple +3 on block normals and even a + on block target combo? He has top tier walk speed, a good throw, and one of the faster overheads in a game with a fast recovering projectile (his frame count on all of his projectiles are identical no matter the speed which is something he didn't even have in 4), he also has an air throw, good anti airs and normals that move him forward and back. If you are good at charging you will charge during his normals. This Guile has tools for more aggressive play while still having one of the strongest zoning games in the game (competes with Dhalsim).

For a comparison of pressure, let's look at a specialized pressure character, Cammy. Cammy has no +3 on block normals, slower walk speed, a worse throw, and no projectile, while doing less damage. This is why people say Guile has a top tier corner game, he can bully you into the corner and keep you there with smart utility of his normals. He has a fast walk speed which also aids in his shimmy and whiff punishing game, meaning he can make you guess between throw and whiff punish while also adding in overheads! This guy is a monster in that department.

He still has a top tier projectile he can walk behind to keep him safe. His V skill gives him a large still projectile that makes it hard to approach him, and his V trigger lets him flood the screen for high damage. Where is the weak zoning? He might not be SF4 Guile but it is VERY difficult to get in on a good Guile player and since his fireballs are basically a fast and invincible poke, it's very difficult to footsie him because you have to watch out for his fireballs and jumping at him is very risky, even with an Ex divekick.

How does this constitute as "bad"? I don't think anybody in this game has non functional normals, even if they need some tweaks. Normals aren't just based on range, they are based on hitboxes, active frames, frame advantage, recovery, and crush counter status. Why do people assume if you don't have a fast long range mash poke like Karin's that your normals are bad? Most characters have normals they want to pick for certain situations. The more you play the game the more you'll know the situations to use them. Just mashing away randomly and saying the normals are bad doesn't mean they're bad.

Laura players say the same thing despite Laura having top tier crush counter normals and whiff punishes for standing and crouching normals for her and the opponent. Stop looking at just range when you address normals and keep in mind that Guile has normals that move him.

Also his spinning backfist is 10 frame startup and -1 on block (safe), Nash has a 13 frame startup and -10 on block (it can be punished on reaction). Guile's does miss on crouchers but it's great to alternate with boom pressure and in the corner.

Also to say mobility doesn't matter says to me that you don't really understand neutral game 101. This claim right here really baffled me. Bison is a character who charges and so is Chun, do you think if you swapped their movement speed that they would not change? Bison would be broken and Chun would be awful. Guile's stupidly fast walk speed is good because he can walk in and out of pressure and pick his spots for zoning better while also whiff punishing better. Who said Guile just needs to hold down back all day? He can launch one projectile and walk with it to the other end of the screen. Why does he need to charge then? He can charge during his normals. How do you think he does those crazy combos in the corner?

Saying things like this shows me you're not really understanding the character and a lot of the fundamental aspects of the game to say that his mobility doesn't matter when it's one of his greatest advantages. You want Guile to play the way you imagine he should be played based on limited experience and not on how his toolset allows him to be played. People said the same thing about Ryu and Ken and their "stubby normals" and "bad zoning". Nash wouldn't be nearly as good without his insane mobility, it's one of the reasons he's so hard to fight.

I've fought some really good Guiles and his zoning and punishment game is very strong. You're saying what he "should" have and "shouldn't" have based on another top tier character who's going to receive nerfs and then saying he's bad?

By that logic... Cammy should have Chun Li's divekick, fireball, normals, and V-trigger too, because Chun Li has it, so should she. What one character has doesn't mean another character needs it. Nash is stupidly strong anyways so it's not even a good reference of comparison to say he's bad.

Guile also has a strong up close game and a fantastic far away game with a faster recovering fireball and a dp. Why are his ranges bad again?

May 25, 2016 13:20:30 GMT -5 JACK-2 said:

I admitted I was wrong about Nash. So, I don't see why bringing him up proves anything. You explained the whole DP thing and I agree'd. What relevance does that have NOW?

I'm bringing it up because you're talking about dropping a character based on flaws that aren't based on anything but you exaggerating them and blaming the game for them or the character for your difficulty in the game. First you said Nash had bad defense and he didn't and I told you that, and then you blamed the game on the anti airs that you were having difficulty with. If you're going to do a tier list you should have information of the game and some knowledge of how the systems work and how to play it or else we end up with lists where people just list things out of frustration.

You drop Guile because of his "bad normals" and then who are you going to go to then? You've already picked two top tiers and swore Cammy was God Tier. The issues you're having have nothing to do with the characters. Just use who you like and get a feel for the game first.

When you played you were hitting on a lot of normals hoping something would work. You need to pick your spots better and use the best normal at that time while also alternating with the projectile as well. You'll adapt fine if you do that.

[JACK-2]

Thanks for taking the time and typing all that out for me, but here's my issue. You see the game from it's own perspective. Am I right in saying that? My discrepancy with Guile in this game is his lack of good ranged normals. The ones Viscant listed for example: Cr. Mk is short and it's always whiffing. It doesn't allow Guile to snipe from a good range because he needs to get too close. His traditional backfist is stubbed as well, compared to Nash and he will whiff if the opponent has a ducking animation. I said the same about Ryu, but he more than makes up for it with strong pros. Guiles pros are? So, speed of frames while I quoted them aren't my initial argument, range is minus the overhead which I said was slow and I concede I was wrong about that. But, the crux of your argument is frame speed, but I'm arguing range. His range is bad. Even if his backfist for example is faster in frames, it's range is bad. Do you think being advantageous on block but having crap range is a good trade?

Second, I'm saying Guile should have these things because he's had them in the past and he no longer has these ranges anymore. By stripping those essential tools he's worst off.

Third, this is why I disagreed with the "Moving the goalpost" claim. Bison and Chun moving forward is irrelevant because they have other good traits that make them solid which Guile doesn't have. Guiles main advantage is his projectile which moving forward destroys.

FYI, I switched characters once: Nash to Necalli. Nash was my first character, I mean I guess Ryu was my first but I didn't care for him. But, I had a hard time without the DP with Nash. Necalli was my stay, but you said I'd do better with Guile, but it's too much work for me. I'm honestly done with this game and fighting games in general at this point. Too difficult for me and I don't have the talent or patience for it. Thanks for the support, but I'm jumping ship.

[The Big Daddy C-Master]

May 25, 2016 23:45:02 GMT -5 JACK-2 said:

Thanks for taking the time and typing all that out for me, but here's my issue. You see the game from it's own perspective. Am I right in saying that? My discrepancy with Guile in this game is his lack of good ranged normals. The ones Viscant listed for example: Cr. Mk is short and it's always whiffing. It doesn't allow Guile to snipe from a good range because he needs to get too close. His traditional backfist is stubbed as well, compared to Nash and he will whiff if the opponent has a ducking animation. I said the same about Ryu, but he more than makes up for it with strong pros. Guiles pros are? So, speed of frames while I quoted them aren't my initial argument, range is minus the overhead which I said was slow and I concede I was wrong about that. But, the crux of your argument is frame speed, but I'm arguing range. His range is bad. Even if his backfist for example is faster in frames, it's range is bad. Do you think being advantageous on block but having crap range is a good trade?

Second, I'm saying Guile should have these things because he's had them in the past and he no longer has these ranges anymore. By stripping those essential tools he's worst off.

Third, this is why I disagreed with the "Moving the goalpost" claim. Bison and Chun moving forward is irrelevant because they have other good traits that make them solid which Guile doesn't have. Guiles main advantage is his projectile which moving forward destroys.

FYI, I switched characters once: Nash to Necalli. Nash was my first character, I mean I guess Ryu was my first but I didn't care for him. But, I had a hard time without the DP with Nash. Necalli was my stay, but you said I'd do better with Guile, but it's too much work for me. I'm honestly done with this game and fighting games in general at this point. Too difficult for me and I don't have the talent or patience for it. Thanks for the support, but I'm jumping ship.

I have to see it from it's own perspective to be as objective as possible though, otherwise I'd be like the people I had to argue with at other sites. People making things up and saying characters are good or bad based on what they "believe" other than fact. You know what it's like when we've had people like that here... ugh.

I mean no character has the perfect normals. Karin players complain about her anti-airs. Chun players complain about her not having a medium to heavy (although she doesn't need it), Vega players complain about their anti airs. Cammy players wish they had their old roundhouse back, etc.

You have to use the normals you have creatively. You have normals that let you snipe and a fast recovering fireballs. Ryu's normals are great as well with some strong hitboxes, his fireball is also a long range poke. Ryu and Guile effectively control more space than Cammy with her longer normals. Guile also has a hopkick that moves him forward too, why doesn't that count? You can't just ignore 3 or 4 normals that do have range.   Fireballs are long ranged pokes anyways which he has.

Having them in an old game is irrelevant. The characters in this game play differently. If you ignore a characters strengths just to focus on what they had in the last game then of course you'll be disappointed. Dhalsim doesn't have his straight fireball (outside of ex), Ryu doesn't have his crouching medium kick, Ken doesn't have any 3f normals, Karin doesn't have her rekkas (outside of V-trigger), etc. What a character had in an old game is irrelevant and is a fallacy. I've already gone over this. Cammy doesn't have her CvS2 frame data so that must mean she's bad. I want my 3f +10 on block st hp please.

Guile has great anti airs, great mobility, stupid damage, amazing zoning, and a great v-skill and v-trigger. Those are some very nice pros and a lot of characters wish they had what Guile had. I don't think you realize how good you have it because you've been playing nothing but strong or top tier characters. You might need to do what Juicebox recommended and go low-tier for a while and pick someone much more limited so you can work around their weaknesses. Character weaknesses are what make a fighting game good. You can't just blame character flaws on your performance or else you won't improve. You just told me his damage doesn't matter when he has some of the highest damage in the game, his zoning doesn't matter when he has some of the best zoning in the game, and that his mobility doesn't matter when it makes him deadly, it's hard for me to take that assessment as solid when the facts behind them were wrong to begin with.

Btw, people are starting to say Bison is bad which I also don't agree with and I don't think F.A.N.G is bad either. He's considered low tier and has placed high in tournaments for instance. Sonic Fox beat Nash with him who is top tier. Bison has no walk speed, no reversal, and is ultra linear. He wishes he had Guile's strengths. Chun is top tier no doubt but she doesn't have Guile's zoning and damage.

I mean I just don't get how you see Guile as *bad*. How is he bad? How? Because you dislike one aspect about him that you were largely wrong about? People said the same thing about Ken's normals. Turns out his normals were just fine and so were Ryu's. You have to look at the speed, advantage, hitboxes.  You don't like the range so they're just overall bad now.

You didn't know about these things and you didn't know Guile had good frame advantage which lets him keep pressure, and good priority on his normals, you told me he had low damage when he has high damage. Guile has everything he needs to be competitive even if you have on thing about him you don't like.

You think I don't get annoyed picking Cammy and dying off of one mistake when I face blatantly better characters like Ryu, Necalli, Ken, Karin, etc? The fact that she has the worst mixups, air normals, crush counters, health and stun, etc in the game but people tell me she's super strong constantly (she is solid, but not top tier at all)? Of course I do but I stick with it. It's not just a game thing I think it has a lot to do with life like I always say. Don't blame the game, character, your life. Find a way to work around it and fix it.  Frustrations will happen but if you just hop around whenever you have a problem you won't improve.  I've shown that I was right about this before and you're seeing it, don't you think I might have a point here?  I don't base what I think on bandwagons or player hype, or even tournament results.  I look at the character closely to base my opinion on it and I'm sticking to my guns.

As far as FG's go. Just play casually. I wouldn't mind if you just said "I'm playing for fun.". Just do that. No reason to take it seriously and get frustrated. You just don't have the interest in "getting good" anymore.  I don't blame you, it' s alot of work.

There's nothing wrong with that. However just realize that tiers don't matter to you if you wish to do that. Just have fun and play casually, pick who you want, and don't focus on all of this stuff. However don't blame the characters on your problems with them. When you asked me who you should play it was clear you wanted a character with "no flaws" who covered your weaknesses. You have to fix those things because even top tiers like Necalli couldn't which is why Juicebox (and myself) recommend you pick a character with a weakness to work around so you have to think more.

[JACK-2]

When I typed last time I was in a rotten mood. So, I didn't get to post in a way that makes sense since I was so angry. I've calmed down now and I'll try to make more sense.

May 26, 2016 2:56:56 GMT -5 The Big Daddy C-Master said:

I have to see it from it's own perspective to be as objective as possible though, otherwise I'd be like the people I had to argue with at other sites. People making things up and saying characters are good or bad based on what they "believe" other than fact. You know what it's like when we've had people like that here... ugh.

Well, you've always kept a cool head which I'll respect. I have a low frustration tolerance probably because I have the misfortune to deal with a lot of crazy people and this can make me erratic sometimes. I try my best o be objective and I don't mind if you call me out if I'm not being as such. But, lemme see if we can reach an understanding in this post.

May 26, 2016 2:56:56 GMT -5 The Big Daddy C-Master said:

I mean no character has the perfect normals. Karin players complain about her anti-airs. Chun players complain about her not having a medium to heavy (although she doesn't need it), Vega players complain about their anti airs. Cammy players wish they had their old roundhouse back, etc.

That's where I was coming from. When I first started playing this game I notice alot of normals for Ryu and Then Guile felt stubby. (This was a complaint across the board.) Like everything whiffed in ranges where it would normally not. I felt frustrated by that fact, but I remember you saying since this is a new game that they had a different approach. They wanted you to fight at a much closer range than normal. What's your opinion on the range issue with normals in SF5, because I honestly don't like it because it's too different. Then what I'm used too.

May 26, 2016 2:56:56 GMT -5 The Big Daddy C-Master said:

You have to use the normals you have creatively. You have normals that let you snipe and a fast recovering fireballs. Ryu's normals are great as well with some strong hitboxes, his fireball is also a long range poke. Ryu and Guile effectively control more space than Cammy with her longer normals. Guile also has a hopkick that moves him forward too, why doesn't that count? You can't just ignore 3 or 4 normals that do have range.   Fireballs are long ranged pokes anyways which he has.

Having them in an old game is irrelevant. The characters in this game play differently. If you ignore a characters strengths just to focus on what they had in the last game then of course you'll be disappointed. Dhalsim doesn't have his straight fireball (outside of ex), Ryu doesn't have his crouching medium kick, Ken doesn't have any 3f normals, Karin doesn't have her rekkas (outside of V-trigger), etc. What a character had in an old game is irrelevant and is a fallacy. I've already gone over this. Cammy doesn't have her CvS2 frame data so that must mean she's bad. I want my 3f +10 on block st hp please.

I heard the recovery is slower for his projectiles compared to older games. I dunno if that's true, but that is what I heard.

Yeah, Fireballs are long range pokes. That is true.

MY question is this, what do you do with the normals that don't work like they used too? I feel like Guile in this game might rely on projectiles alot more because his traditional normals that you used to use are not on par. He does have good new ones, though: B. Fierce, F. Forward, B. Roundhouse (I think). His crouching normals are shorter, but he can confirm from lights: Jab -> Strong -> Flash Kick. that Combo really should take more damage, I dunno. You're right to say that we should focus on the character as is now. But, I have a question: Do you think the change in Guiles gameplay will make him better or worst? Like if they change a character and make him worst or strip away tools that have traditionally made him strong (The normals I'm complaining about) you don't think that's bad I feel you though. SF5 was made intentionally different. So, maybe the complaints right now are from people trying to adapt to changes. I suck at adapting so I'm whining right now myself.

May 26, 2016 2:56:56 GMT -5 The Big Daddy C-Master said:

Guile has great anti airs, great mobility, stupid damage, amazing zoning, and a great v-skill and v-trigger. Those are some very nice pros and a lot of characters wish they had what Guile had. I don't think you realize how good you have it because you've been playing nothing but strong or top tier characters. You might need to do what Juicebox recommended and go low-tier for a while and pick someone much more limited so you can work around their weaknesses. Character weaknesses are what make a fighting game good. You can't just blame character flaws on your performance or else you won't improve. You just told me his damage doesn't matter when he has some of the highest damage in the game, his zoning doesn't matter when he has some of the best zoning in the game, and that his mobility doesn't matter when it makes him deadly, it's hard for me to take that assessment as solid when the facts behind them were wrong to begin with.

I said his damage outside of meter is pretty weak and he can't stun. When you say high damage do you mean with V-Trigger?
His BnB doesn't stun as much nor does it do much damage, but I agree with what you say about working with character weakness.

I didn't say his zoning did not matter, but I did say I don't have much faith in his mobility because you would lose charge as you advance forward. I think his zoning and keeping you from advancing is his greatest strength. I have been playing him defensively, though.

May 26, 2016 2:56:56 GMT -5 The Big Daddy C-Master said:

Btw, people are starting to say Bison is bad which I also don't agree with and I don't think F.A.N.G is bad either. He's considered low tier and has placed high in tournaments for instance. Sonic Fox beat Nash with him who is top tier. Bison has no walk speed, no reversal, and is ultra linear. He wishes he had Guile's strengths. Chun is top tier no doubt but she doesn't have Guile's zoning and damage.

I mean I just don't get how you see Guile as *bad*. How is he bad? How? Because you dislike one aspect about him that you were largely wrong about? People said the same thing about Ken's normals. Turns out his normals were just fine and so were Ryu's. You have to look at the speed, advantage, hitboxes.  You don't like the range so they're just overall bad now.

Well, I felt the range was bad and without them his normals would be limited. You think he's overall good because he has other strengths.

May 26, 2016 2:56:56 GMT -5 The Big Daddy C-Master said:

You didn't know about these things and you didn't know Guile had good frame advantage which lets him keep pressure, and good priority on his normals, you told me he had low damage when he has high damage. Guile has everything he needs to be competitive even if you have on thing about him you don't like.
You think I don't get annoyed picking Cammy and dying off of one mistake when I face blatantly better characters like Ryu, Necalli, Ken, Karin, etc? The fact that she has the worst mixups, air normals, crush counters, health and stun, etc in the game but people tell me she's super strong constantly (she is solid, but not top tier at all)? Of course I do but I stick with it. It's not just a game thing I think it has a lot to do with life like I always say. Don't blame the game, character, your life. Find a way to work around it and fix it.  Frustrations will happen but if you just hop around whenever you have a problem you won't improve.  I've shown that I was right about this before and you're seeing it, don't you think I might have a point here?  I don't base what I think on bandwagons or player hype, or even tournament results.  I look at the character closely to base my opinion on it and I'm sticking to my guns.

Well, of course you hae a point. I'm not saying you're wrong, but between me being pissed and the character ebing new. I might be contrarian.

I remember when you called the Evil Ryu bandwagon out and you were right. But, I dunno about Guile. I agree with Bison, have no Idea why people say he's weak.

I don't deal with frustration well, I'll be honest. I get angry and I quit. Unless it's something important that can make money, but when I play video games. If I hit a wall, I just quit. I'm 100% casual, but I did try to get competitive and I just can't do it. I'll just move on.

May 26, 2016 2:56:56 GMT -5 The Big Daddy C-Master said:

As far as FG's go. Just play casually. I wouldn't mind if you just said "I'm playing for fun.". Just do that. No reason to take it seriously and get frustrated. You just don't have the interest in "getting good" anymore.  I don't blame you, it' s alot of work.

There's nothing wrong with that. However just realize that tiers don't matter to you if you wish to do that. Just have fun and play casually, pick who you want, and don't focus on all of this stuff. However don't blame the characters on your problems with them. When you asked me who you should play it was clear you wanted a character with "no flaws" who covered your weaknesses. You have to fix those things because even top tiers like Necalli couldn't which is why Juicebox (and myself) recommend you pick a character with a weakness to work around so you have to think more.

Will do.

[The Big Daddy C-Master]

Karin vs Ryu, Karin vs Chun, Dhalsim, Ken, etc. It never ends with these top tiers.

Anyways...

SFV is a different game with a different design. Projectiles have never been as strong as they were in SF2 when they were beastly. SF3, Alpha, 4, etc. These have all had weaker projectiles. Different designs, different game focuses etc. Doesn't mean they're bad, but the characters often got something different to compensate. SF3 didn't have strong fireballs at all and you like it, but you realize that characters got other strengths to make up for it. Remy was low tier because the system screwed him over.

Guile is not the case since he was designed with a strong up close and rushdown game and his zoning is still quite zone. You need to watch stronger Guile players.

If Guile got the changes the people are complaining wanted, it would make many matchups near impossible with his rushdown game, eh would be near broken. If his backfist hit crouchers it would probably be the best button in the game, you have to look at the whole cast and not one character compared to SF4.

Check some vids to get an idea of how he is used. He's definitely not bad.

Also Daigo says Guile is very solid. He has used him competitively in Super Turbo, CvS2 and the like. Dieminion has always whined about Guile even though he was pretty solid in every game after Vanilla. He whined about Guile being ruined after his boom change making him open to counter hit and again in Ultra with some other changes and he had a great year after that. So I don't put too much stock in knee jerk stuff. Especially not by him lol.

[Great Dark Hero]

I capability in SFV is bipolar at best, even if I try to remain as methodical as I usually am. I either relatively solid or I suck hard when something goes wrong.

For tiers. Please! Be prepared for a potentially misinformed opinion from a wannabe SF player:

S: Nash, Chun, Ryu, Karin
A: Ken, Necalli, Cammy
B: Everyone else
C: N/A
D(Lowest): N/A

What would I place Nash, Chun, Ryu, and Karin up that high?
Nash is the "Tekken - Lars Alexanderson" of this game. The thing about Nash is that he encourage a few somewhat specific play styles. The only weaknesses are his walk speed and the fact that he does not have a actual reversal. Based on how his move set is constructed and the amount of damage he can get when he has V-Trigger available, those two weaknesses can be neglected to a very large degree. Infiltration provides a very solid example of what Nash is capable of.

Ryu... if you are a Ryu player, then you probably understand that Ryu gets a lot of damage easily and he has a easy time utilizing his projectiles to zone around at certain distances (more so with V-Trigger). You're really after the damage if happen to be a Ryu player. Watching Tokido's Ryu is entertaining to say the least, though I do not like the character.

Um, I'm not trying to funny. But, to speak about Chun Li, playing her on SFV is like you're trying to play Devil Jin on the Tekken games. She has a little bit of everything and is versatile. The issue that you have to deal with in the long run is execution (mainly cr.LP~st.MP~cr.MK to Light or Medium SBK as well as IALLS pressure). Chun Li can also get away with players who have variable play styles: You can rush down, you can zone, wait around for utilities, hit-and-run, turtle and even trap to some extent). Her anti-air normal moves are top notch. Her only real weakness is that she relies on charge so the opponent may find a way to take the charge away from you. The secondary weakness is that her V-Reversal isn't that good either.

Karin seems to reward players that contain a methodical play style, much like a solid Cammy player would. Her Crush Counters are lethal, even as you play footsies and use them outside of just punishes. Her weaknesses are that she hard has any really good gimmicks (which is a good and a bad thing... mostly... Good). What I am implying are that she has very terrible mix ups in the neutral because most of them can be jabbed within the gaps they provide or the player can just neutral jump and eat her alive. She also gets a reversal when she has at least one bar but the issue is that the player would more than likely be giving up a ton of damage if they just throw out a reversal in a panic situation.

Could be more to follow later...

[The Big Daddy C-Master]

Not a bad list so far. I'd swap Cammy with Dhalsim and then go from there. Cammy is a solid character but the top tiers just do it all and then have some. It becomes more apparent with more play and at these events where the top tiers are flooding everything and getting much easier wins with the bottom and middle tier working harder.

I have a hard time putting Ken and Necalli on another level since they have tons of options and just insane damage and V-triggers. Their reward is also silly high.

I definitely want to see the rest of your list though.