Overrated books

[Psyquis52]

Well?

Do you know any?
Let's hear it!

But play nice.

[The Big Daddy C-Master]

Apr 27, 2008 23:33:17 GMT -5 Psyquis52 said:

Well?

Do you know any?
Let's hear it!

But play nice.

The Bib-
I was almost tempted to say it because it would lead to a heated discussion.

But actually I will say that some people place too much importance on the book instead of their relationship. I'm talking about the type of people who will go nuts if someone drops their bible for some reason. If you don't have a good relationship with God or treat other people right it's useless.

[Dja Majista]

That's a new idea. I've never thought of what an overrated book might be. *looks at shelf*
No nothing popular enough here to be considered overrated.

The Bib-
I was almost tempted to say it because it would lead to a heated discussion.

But actually I will say that some people place too much importance on the book instead of their relationship. I'm talking about the type of people who will go nuts if someone drops their bible for some reason. If you don't have a good relationship with God or treat other people right it's useless.

Right after my Old Testament exam, I come to see this. tsk tsk. I think the reading and the relationship go hand-in-hand but hey that's just me. The bible is clearly a text God meant for us to wrestle with.

But anyway, I'm gonna just say the Eragon series might be overrated. Since it got so much publicity from its writer being just a kid. Maybe I'm wrong, maybe not.

[Sinistrous]

Ender's Game
I've read my fair share of stupid books, but this one just takes the cake. It's so awful, I don't even know where to begin. Go find a plot-synopsis somewhere and just try to believe any of it.

[Dja Majista]

Hey, that book was a fun read. I read it twice. The games really had that indescribable quality of a dream that's really hard to reproduce. That and it kept me turning the pages.

[Sinistrous]

Maybe the games had that quality because you were on drugs; definitely not the writer's non-existent ability. The entire concept of the book is so fucking stupid: a third-born (THIRD THIRD DID YOU KNOW I WUZ THIRD CHILD HUH LET ME REMIND YOU) kid is basically a super genetics project, kills some bully, gets sent to military school, is trained in the art of military strategy from a video game, and

SPOILER: Click to show

for his final exam he saves the human race from the alien threat because that one isn't a game - it's the real thing, he just wasn't told that.

Honestly, did you not gag when you read that? The entire concept of the book is so asinine and pretentious, it makes me want to vomit just thinking about it.

[warmunger]

...Davinchi Code and the Harry Potter books.

[Dja Majista]

Apr 29, 2008 10:19:37 GMT -5 Sinistrous said:

Maybe the games had that quality because you were on drugs; definitely not the writer's non-existent ability. The entire concept of the book is so fucking stupid: a third-born (THIRD THIRD DID YOU KNOW I WUZ THIRD CHILD HUH LET ME REMIND YOU) kid is basically a super genetics project, kills some bully, gets sent to military school, is trained in the art of military strategy from a video game, and

SPOILER: Click to show

for his final exam he saves the human race from the alien threat because that one isn't a game - it's the real thing, he just wasn't told that.

Honestly, did you not gag when you read that? The entire concept of the book is so asinine and pretentious, it makes me want to vomit just thinking about it.

I don't really care about weird plots. Usually I like it if it's just thought provoking. And for the record, most of the training from his video game was to condition his mind to that of a killer. That's the significance of it. He was already a brilliant tactician, he just needed to be taught to kill.
Maybe it was a little pretentious, but so is every book with a philosophical theme. Anyway, that was a page turner. I don't care what anybody says.
Oh and your opinion sucks . btw I'm putting spoiler tags on that last piece. Some people might actually want to read this book. bastard.

[Sinistrous]

Hey, didn't the topic say "play nice"? Callin' me a bastard, why I oughta...

Back to the point, it has nothing to do with weirdness; the plot is just completely implausible. There's nothing in it I'd really call weird either; it's pretty standard Star Wars stuff. Weird stuff is like something from the old Weird Tales publication (Dagons, Necronomicons, etc) - I can deal with that (and I like it), but I can not deal with utter, unbelievable crap like a little snot named Ender being some sort of genetically enhanced super-military genius and that everyone is quite fine with relying on him for their last stand against total annihilation at the hands of an oh-so-malevolent alien race.

Also, please don't use those types of blanket statements. Seriously, how is every book with a philosophical theme pretentious?

[Dja Majista]

Apr 29, 2008 16:18:56 GMT -5 Sinistrous said:

Hey, didn't the topic say "play nice"? Callin' me a bastard, why I oughta...

Back to the point, it has nothing to do with weirdness; the plot is just completely implausible. There's nothing in it I'd really call weird either; it's pretty standard Star Wars stuff. Weird stuff is like something from the old Weird Tales publication (Dagons, Necronomicons, etc) - I can deal with that (and I like it), but I can not deal with utter, unbelievable crap like a little snot named Ender being some sort of genetically enhanced super-military genius and that everyone is quite fine with relying on him for their last stand against total annihilation at the hands of an oh-so-malevolent alien race.

Also, please don't use those types of blanket statements. Seriously, how is every book with a philosophical theme pretentious?

You bastard. How dare you call me out for using "blanket statements!"
j/k ... or was I? o_0

*ahem* I mean it's pretentious because it has to sound really deep from time to time. It's hard to write otherwise with that kind of theme. But what about it was pretentious to you?

Anyway, I'm sure you want to get down and dirty with this. So why don't you line up your argument for me. What exactly do you dislike about it and why? It seems like your main complaint is the plot. And the whole deal with Ender. But I don't see anything intrinsically wrong with it. It's a little cliched sure, but it's not a bad plot.

[The Big Daddy C-Master]

Apr 28, 2008 19:45:16 GMT -5 Dja Majista said:

Hey, that book was a fun read. I read it twice. The games really had that indescribable quality of a dream that's really hard to reproduce. That and it kept me turning the pages.

The bible or one of your little bathroom magazines?

[Dja Majista]

Read the context, not the pretext...

[Sinistrous]

Apr 29, 2008 16:54:27 GMT -5 Dja Majista said:

You bastard. How dare you call me out for using "blanket statements!"
j/k ... or was I? o_0

I was playing nice until you had to pull the "you dirty mean-guy" card. And that is a blanket statement, no matter how you look at it.

*ahem* I mean it's pretentious because it has to sound really deep from time to time. It's hard to write otherwise with that kind of theme. But what about it was pretentious to you?

That has nothing to do with what pretentious means. I think we've had this discussion before, no?

Anyway, I'm sure you want to get down and dirty with this. So why don't you line up your argument for me. What exactly do you dislike about it and why? It seems like your main complaint is the plot. And the whole deal with Ender. But I don't see anything intrinsically wrong with it. It's a little cliched sure, but it's not a bad plot.

My problems with the plot have mostly been covered. The events aren't believable at all and the characters even less so. The tell-tale sign of how awful the story is though, is the overly sympathetic mewling over poor Ender. In fact, you can summarize my entire argument right there. It fails as a sci-fi because it's too busy talking about how Ender got beat up and called nasty names in the academy, rather than getting to any point. Actually though, that's a bit of a blessing in disguise as Card is quite the fascist and Hitler-fanboy, not to say that stopped him at all from putting a fine tribute to his idol in there (there's actually a lot of lines that can be drawn between Adolf and the Ender character, he's almost completely based off of him!)

[Dja Majista]

Apr 30, 2008 2:01:44 GMT -5 Sinistrous said:

I was playing nice until you had to pull the "you dirty mean-guy" card. And that is a blanket statement, no matter how you look at it.

No you bastard. Can't you see? I'm the dirty mean guy.

That has nothing to do with what pretentious means. I think we've had this discussion before, no?

Sure it does. Pretentious means overly showy. It's like the last episode of Evangelion but not nearly as bad. I would call that pretentious. They tried to make me think it was a very intelligent anime, when it wasn't. But you haven't answered my question. What do you think is pretentious about it? My view on how it's pretentious would be irrelevant here if it's different from yours.

My problems with the plot have mostly been covered. The events aren't believable at all and the characters even less so. The tell-tale sign of how awful the story is though, is the overly sympathetic mewling over poor Ender. In fact, you can summarize my entire argument right there. It fails as a sci-fi because it's too busy talking about how Ender got beat up and called nasty names in the academy, rather than getting to any point.

Well ok. But Ender's training was geared toward altering his personality to make him a killer. They put the kid through a lot of stuff. You've gotta feel sorry for him. Let me put it this way. If you want the focus of Ender's game to be about the sci fi elements, then
you won't have as good of a book. Ender's Game is mostly about character development, and what it means to condition a human mind. And I can't agree that it focuses on feeling sorry for Ender. Ender finds his happy place plenty of times throughout the book. Overall, yeah you're gonna feel a little sorry for him. It's a tragic situation. That kind of thing is inevitable.
In terms of believability, eh, I just think of it as more of a fantasy than a sci fi. But the main characters' personalities are believable enough to me. I mean you have to remember these are children. Some of their personalities are bound to be a little extreme.

Actually though, that's a bit of a blessing in disguise as Card is quite the fascist and Hitler-fanboy, not to say that stopped him at all from putting a fine tribute to his idol in there (there's actually a lot of lines that can be drawn between Adolf and the Ender character, he's almost completely based off of him!)

I want to hear more on this one.

[Sinistrous]

Sure it does. Pretentious means overly showy.

A.) That's not what you said and B.) Again, that is not what it means. That's more like a characteristic of hipsterism, not pretentia. Pretentious refers to having no idea what you're talking about and making huge assumptions to make up for it. In other words, there's a blatant difference between expressing something that you understand and what you don't.

Read on, and I'll spell the rest of it out for you.

Well ok. But Ender's training was geared toward altering his personality to make him a killer. They put the kid through a lot of stuff. You've gotta feel sorry for him. Let me put it this way. If you want the focus of Ender's game to be about the sci fi elements, then
you won't have as good of a book. Ender's Game is mostly about character development, and what it means to condition a human mind. And I can't agree that it focuses on feeling sorry for Ender. Ender finds his happy place plenty of times throughout the book. Overall, yeah you're gonna feel a little sorry for him. It's a tragic situation. That kind of thing is inevitable.

There's nothing inherently wrong with the fact that the book tries to make you feel sorry for Ender, but the fact of the matter is that the book is cheating you out of a point. Don't you see? The book has no point, it's just a cheap, emotionally-driven story without any purpose except to make you feel sorry for the main character. That's it! There's nothing else there! And yes, you can be sympathetic while giving the character some happiness once in a while. That's how you keep the audience along, because they'll just give up on it if the character is always feeling like shit. You know how a love and loss story works? It's the same thing.

Again, this would work if it he was making a coherent point, but that isn't the case at all.

In terms of believability, eh, I just think of it as more of a fantasy than a sci fi. But the main characters' personalities are believable enough to me. I mean you have to remember these are children. Some of their personalities are bound to be a little extreme.

Aside from the fact that they hardly act like children at all?

I want to hear more on this one.

Read:
peachfront.diaryland.com/enderhitlte.html

Edit: Linked to the wrong essay, link fixed.

[Dja Majista]

Apr 30, 2008 14:36:06 GMT -5 Sinistrous said:

Sure it does. Pretentious means overly showy.

A.) That's not what you said and B.) Again, that is not what it means. That's more like a characteristic of hipsterism, not pretentia. Pretentious refers to having no idea what you're talking about and making huge assumptions to make up for it. In other words, there's a blatant difference between expressing something that you understand and what you don't.

Read on, and I'll spell the rest of it out for you.

You need to get your hands on a dictionary. Having no idea what you're talking about and making huge assumptions to make up for it might be an implication of pretentia, but it has nothing to do with the definition. And, of course "that's not what I said," I don't remember defining pretentious before I said it means overly showy.

There's nothing inherently wrong with the fact that the book tries to make you feel sorry for Ender, but the fact of the matter is that the book is cheating you out of a point. Don't you see? The book has no point, it's just a cheap, emotionally-driven story without any purpose except to make you feel sorry for the main character. That's it! There's nothing else there! And yes, you can be sympathetic while giving the character some happiness once in a while. That's how you keep the audience along, because they'll just give up on it if the character is always feeling like shit. You know how a love and loss story works? It's the same thing.

Again, this would work if it he was making a coherent point, but that isn't the case at all.

What do you mean by point? You mean like a purpose? Or an overall message? I need that part cleared up.

Aside from the fact that they hardly act like children at all?

Oh ok, guess I have to give that one to ya. But they all have their childish quirks.

I want to hear more on this one.

Read:
peachfront.diaryland.com/enderhitlte.html

Edit: Linked to the wrong essay, link fixed.[/quote]
thanks, this's actually kind of funny.

[Psyquis52]

What the #@#$?
What happened here?
Someone mentioned the Bible then maybe three more books and then there's blasting.




I love this forum.

I thought I saw someone say the Harry Potter series up there.
I'd like an explanation. KILLFACE!!! EXPLAIN YOURSELF!!!
And don't worry about offending anyone here because none of us are girls and we all know that the majority of rabid Harry Potter fans are girls.

It's true I swear it.

[Sinistrous]

Apr 30, 2008 16:19:34 GMT -5 Dja Majista said:

You need to get your hands on a dictionary. Having no idea what you're talking about and making huge assumptions to make up for it might be an implication of pretentia, but it has nothing to do with the definition. And, of course "that's not what I said," I don't remember defining pretentious before I said it means overly showy.

pre·ten·tious Audio Help /prɪˈtɛnʃəs/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[pri-ten-shuhs] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–adjective
1. full of pretense or pretension.
2. characterized by assumption of dignity or importance.
3. making an exaggerated outward show; ostentatious.

My bolding. Yes, it does essentially say it's being overly showy, but that ignores the negative context I was using it in. Someone can be showy, yet know what they're talking about; that's not a bad thing. When I said the book is pretentious, I'm using the term in a negative context (asinine, gag, fucking stupid, etc), which invokes the assuming and negative aspect.

And you did. "...I mean it's pretentious because it has to sound really deep from time to time..." That was what I originally went after you on. Your second try was closer, but ignored the context.

What do you mean by point? You mean like a purpose? Or an overall message? I need that part cleared up.

Yeah, a meaning, purpose, reasoning, anything. The book has none of it; it only exists to make you feel sympathetic towards a fictional character and waste your time.

thanks, this's actually kind of funny.

And true. Amazing how that works, huh?

[Dja Majista]

May 1, 2008 13:18:56 GMT -5 Sinistrous said:

Apr 30, 2008 16:19:34 GMT -5 Dja Majista said:

You need to get your hands on a dictionary. Having no idea what you're talking about and making huge assumptions to make up for it might be an implication of pretentia, but it has nothing to do with the definition. And, of course "that's not what I said," I don't remember defining pretentious before I said it means overly showy.

pre·ten·tious Audio Help /prɪˈtɛnʃəs/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[pri-ten-shuhs] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–adjective
1. full of pretense or pretension.
2. characterized by assumption of dignity or importance.
3. making an exaggerated outward show; ostentatious.

My bolding. Yes, it does essentially say it's being overly showy, but that ignores the negative context I was using it in. Someone can be showy, yet know what they're talking about; that's not a bad thing. When I said the book is pretentious, I'm using the term in a negative context (asinine, gag, fucking stupid, etc), which invokes the assuming and negative aspect.

And you did. "...I mean it's pretentious because it has to sound really deep from time to time..." That was what I originally went after you on. Your second try was closer, but ignored the context.

"It's pretentious because..." I thought you knew that that means this is why it's pretentious (it has to sound deep from time to time), not how it's pretentious. So I figured you'd be able to draw the connection: "Sounding deep" can imply overly showy, or possibly even having too much dignity in one's own opinions. Perhaps that was a stretch?

Anyway, obviously we both have proper definitions of pretentious so who cares? I've asked what you meant by pretentious twice. Overly showy is what I said, not just showy, and it fits easily into your negative context, because of the key word with a negative connotation, "overly," which you sir negated. That makes you guilty of the straw man fallacy! You felonious man! I'm calling the police!

I think we were both half wrong and half right. But this point is irrelevant, because all I was concerned with was finding out exactly how you were defining pretentious.

Yeah, a meaning, purpose, reasoning, anything. The book has none of it; it only exists to make you feel sympathetic towards a fictional character and waste your time.

Oh lord, it has tons of meaning. Not all good books have one central meaning/purpose/moral or what have you. Enders Game is like that. But has a load of themes. What does it mean to be someone's pawn? What does it mean to be a killer? a savior? What is real? The book attempts to answer all these questions in some way.

And true. Amazing how that works, huh?

No, actually I thought it was funny from all of its absurdities.

[Sinistrous]

Have it your way; I won't pursue this nit-picking any further. As an aside, pulling the "last-word-in" card is a really nasty habit and it's better to just let the topic slide if you want to discontinue it's pursuit. It makes you seem a lot less childish.

Anyway, if you think the book has so much meaning, why don't you explain what these meanings are? If they're there and well expressed, that shouldn't be a problem especially in a book that's so straight forward, right? What does it mean to be someone's pawn or a killer according to the book?

SPOILER: Click to show

What does it mean to commit genocide without knowing it?

And why is the essay so absurd? Care to cite some reasoning for that?

[Dja Majista]

May 1, 2008 15:24:25 GMT -5 Sinistrous said:

Have it your way; I won't pursue this nit-picking any further. As an aside, pulling the "last-word-in" card is a really nasty habit and it's better to just let the topic slide if you want to discontinue it's pursuit. It makes you seem a lot less childish.

What? last word? I had decided that would be my last comment on the whole pretentious thing cause that's all I needed to say. I admitted that I was wrong in part at least.

Anyway, if you think the book has so much meaning, why don't you explain what these meanings are? If they're there and well expressed, that shouldn't be a problem especially in a book that's so straight forward, right? What does it mean to be someone's pawn or a killer according to the book?

SPOILER: Click to show

What does it mean to commit genocide without knowing it?

And why is the essay so absurd? Care to cite some reasoning for that?

geez, the whole essay isn't absurd, but yeah I don't mind citing something. For all those questions your asking, I'd rather not answer, because this whole discussion is going to be encased in spoiler tags, and I'd rather it not be that way. So on that note, I'll just give it to you. For the essay I'll just pick out a couple of absurdities.

Toward the end, he has a child voice the inevitable corollary, "When you really know somebody, you can't hate them." To which I can only say, "Bullshit." You can easily hate someone you know very well -- ask a few people who have had to learn a great deal about their abusers in an effort to head off some of their attacks -- and, in any case, adults remain responsible for their actions no matter how good their intentions.

"When you really know somebody, you can't hate them." There is a lot of truth in that statement. When you know someone as well as you know yourself, which pretty much never happens, you understand their motives exactly. Aristotle had a similar philosophy. This guy is misinterpreting it in a way it's just silly. "You can easily hate someone you know very well." Duh. Don't you think he knows that? Sure you can hate someone you know very well, but knowing them very well is different from completely understanding them. There's a little ethic in argumentation we call charity. If this guy had given Card the benefit of the doubt, he would have understood that really knowing someone is more than just knowing someone as a friend; it's knowing them as yourself.

I'm trying to find quotes that I won't have to put spoiler tags around but honestly it's pretty hard. I can say this much though. The essay seems to say that the text endorses thinking of Ender/Hitler as a hero, which is geared toward further antagonizing Card. That's utter nonsense. Maybe it's endorsing the idea of Ender/Hitler being human, but honestly I don't see anything wrong with that. People stupidly insist to themselves everyday that people like Hitler, and the American slave holders, were far from human. And that's just humans believing in their own justice.

[Dja Majista]

Sorry. I had to put up another spoiler tag.

[The Big Daddy C-Master]

May 1, 2008 4:47:48 GMT -5 Psyquis52 said:

What the #@#$?
What happened here?
Someone mentioned the Bible then maybe three more books and then there's blasting.




I love this forum.

I thought I saw someone say the Harry Potter series up there.
I'd like an explanation. KILLFACE!!! EXPLAIN YOURSELF!!!
And don't worry about offending anyone here because none of us are girls and we all know that the majority of rabid Harry Potter fans are girls.

It's true I swear it.

I bet Harry gets all the girls, it only make sense.

[Psyquis52]

May 1, 2008 23:25:25 GMT -5 The Big Daddy C-Master said:

I bet Harry gets all the girls, it only make sense.

It's true.

I'll tell you what. You go to some kind of writing forum and say in a fairly intelligent manner that you are unimpressed for the most part and then note the first 5 people that try to cut your balls off and I'm certain that 4/5 will be girls.
It's weird.

[Dja Majista]

What kinda man would ever want to cut another man's balls off?

[Psyquis52]

May 2, 2008 9:06:50 GMT -5 Dja Majista said:

What kinda man would ever want to cut another man's balls off?

This kind

[The Big Daddy C-Master]

A real man?

[Dja Majista]

May 2, 2008 21:12:29 GMT -5 Psyquis52 said:

May 2, 2008 9:06:50 GMT -5 Dja Majista said:

What kinda man would ever want to cut another man's balls off?

This kind

#hysterical#
Holy crap that was hilarious.

[Psyquis52]

May 2, 2008 22:38:07 GMT -5 The Big Daddy C-Master said:

A real man?

I swear to you there is a real man in there.

[Psyquis52]

May 3, 2008 11:18:28 GMT -5 Dja Majista said:

#hysterical#
Holy crap that was hilarious.

Thank you! ;D