MA ability vs Overall Skill

[The Big Daddy C-Master]

This is something that has been debated for a very long time. Martial Artists have been trained in tools that help utilize their movement and physics, but does that directly equate into fighting efficiency alone?

How about skill? We've seen arguments about how certain characters take down several opponents with skill? Well any character who has done that wouldn't be considered skilled based on the fact that they haven't taken a Martial Arts Class?

How does it work? What is the comic/forum's belief on skill on this site and MA ability, and how it coorelates? Do we use a character's stated skill even if they don't show it?

What about experience? Should characters like Thor and Herc who have lived for a very long time but haven't been in a traditional Martial Arts class or training session be considered less skilled? Should Punisher be considered less skilled when he does things with no powers at all?

Debate, poll, discuss

[JACK-2]

Wait, is this from a realistic perspective or a comic perspective?

[The Big Daddy C-Master]

Dec 16, 2009 4:10:12 GMT -5 JACK-2 said:

Wait, is this from a realistic perspective or a comic perspective?

Either, they tend to have common ties, but I was aiming in the comics forum for comics.

[JACK-2]

It depends on how you're trained really, give me a scenario for arguments sake.

[The Big Daddy C-Master]

Dec 17, 2009 1:00:28 GMT -5 JACK-2 said:

It depends on how you're trained really, give me a scenario for arguments sake.

Well on the KMCrap site I had a discussion about it a bit ago. People make MA seem like it is actual skill itself when skill is many things, and MA ability doesn't equal fighting ability IMO, it just gives you the tools you need and several characters have different needs. MA is very overrated at KMC, and experience counts too.

Spiderman is a good example of this where people are saying anybody with MA training (official training mind you, as Spiderman has his own style, which is very effective, often more effective than official MA, while holding back). But people are saying he has no skill at all, I think people should rethink their meaning of skill. Could he use some extra training? Sure, who couldn't? But to say he doesn't have any is wrong and ignorant of the character IMO.

[JACK-2]

People just don't understand what skill and Martial arts is about. I think it's obvious to anyone with half a brain that Spider-mans skills are fighting related: Spider Sense, Super Reflex, Super Strength, and webbing. So, saying he has no fighting skills is absurd. Spider-Man is also a career hero. After surviving countless life or death situations. Saying he has no fighting experience is also a major folly. I mean he's a super human when you get down to it. I don't see what people are debating really.

[The Big Daddy C-Master]

Dec 17, 2009 12:31:52 GMT -5 JACK-2 said:

People just don't understand what skill and Martial arts is about. I think it's obvious to anyone with half a brain that Spider-mans skills are fighting related: Spider Sense, Super Reflex, Super Strength, and webbing. So, saying he has no fighting skills is absurd. Spider-Man is also a career hero. After surviving countless life or death situations. Saying he has no fighting experience is also a major folly. I mean he's a super human when you get down to it. I don't see what people are debating really.

Would you like to see the thread? MA is overly wanked on KMC.

[JACK-2]

Sure.

[The Big Daddy C-Master]

Dec 18, 2009 13:38:35 GMT -5 JACK-2 said:

Sure.

www.killermovies.com/forums/f77/t521874.html

Hence why I don't go there often, I did because of the flow and I knew their preception was cracked. In the end, most said it wasn't the end all and be all to skill, by answering another way. So many trolls and socks.

[Saikyo Kid]

Not a huge comic guy but my vote went to the "MA ability is useful but it isn't the main criteri" option. Martial arts is a good thing for a charatcer or person to know if they are constantly fighting. The Martial Arts betters or gives a certain level of skill to the user and teaches discipline, to a degree. Spidey is a pretty decent fighter from what I know but if he knew a martial art and some how implemented that into his natural agility and flexibilty, he could be a stronger hero. Batman wouldn't be as good as he is if he hadn't been trained in the martial arts.

Wit that bein' said, it's far from everything and you can still win witout MA abilities. MA is a "fight plan" that isn't needed at all if you know what your doin. I think MA abilities become less or more valuable depending on who your fightin'. Martial arts VS Batman would help but Martial arts VS Superman is useless. If you have powers, what's the point of MA ability? Even though I just used Spidey as an example, he doesn't really need MA cuz he's got Spider senses.

IMO, general skill and experience is far more valuable than MA ability.

[The Big Daddy C-Master]

Dec 22, 2009 1:10:07 GMT -5 Saikyo Kid said:

Not a huge comic guy but my vote went to the "MA ability is useful but it isn't the main criteri" option. Martial arts is a good thing for a charatcer or person to know if they are constantly fighting. The Martial Arts betters or gives a certain level of skill to the user and teaches discipline, to a degree. Spidey is a pretty decent fighter from what I know but if he knew a martial art and some how implemented that into his natural agility and flexibilty, he could be a stronger hero. Batman wouldn't be as good as he is if he hadn't been trained in the martial arts.

Wit that bein' said, it's far from everything and you can still win witout MA abilities. MA is a "fight plan" that isn't needed at all if you know what your doin. I think MA abilities become less or more valuable depending on who your fightin'. Martial arts VS Batman would help but Martial arts VS Superman is useless. If you have powers, what's the point of MA ability? Even though I just used Spidey as an example, he doesn't really need MA cuz he's got Spider senses.

IMO, general skill and experience is far more valuable than MA ability.

Well you have the SF characters and or guys like Karate Kid who have supernatural ability through MA and those are exceptions. It's just that MA is so wanked on KMC, if they are similar in power MA gives an edge, but I owned them by saying why is a punch from Spiderman sloppy while one from Captain America is some secret nerve strike? They're the same punch and if anything Spiderman's is fancier. But on that forum a character who has high MA stats has a super punch anyways, *sigh*.

[Saikyo Kid]

Dec 22, 2009 5:54:21 GMT -5 The Big Daddy C-Master said:

Dec 22, 2009 1:10:07 GMT -5 Saikyo Kid said:

Not a huge comic guy but my vote went to the "MA ability is useful but it isn't the main criteri" option. Martial arts is a good thing for a charatcer or person to know if they are constantly fighting. The Martial Arts betters or gives a certain level of skill to the user and teaches discipline, to a degree. Spidey is a pretty decent fighter from what I know but if he knew a martial art and some how implemented that into his natural agility and flexibilty, he could be a stronger hero. Batman wouldn't be as good as he is if he hadn't been trained in the martial arts.

Wit that bein' said, it's far from everything and you can still win witout MA abilities. MA is a "fight plan" that isn't needed at all if you know what your doin. I think MA abilities become less or more valuable depending on who your fightin'. Martial arts VS Batman would help but Martial arts VS Superman is useless. If you have powers, what's the point of MA ability? Even though I just used Spidey as an example, he doesn't really need MA cuz he's got Spider senses.

IMO, general skill and experience is far more valuable than MA ability.

Well you have the SF characters and or guys like Karate Kid who have supernatural ability through MA and those are exceptions. It's just that MA is so wanked on KMC, if they are similar in power MA gives an edge, but I owned them by saying why is a punch from Spiderman sloppy while one from Captain America is some secret nerve strike? They're the same punch and if anything Spiderman's is fancier. But on that forum a character who has high MA stats has a super punch anyways, *sigh*.

Idiots. Do they even know that all martial arts aren't the same and serve different purposes. Karate focuses on focus and chi. Focusin' your inner strength allows you to do things that you usually wouldn't be able to do thru physical strength alone. Like how super skinny peeps can't bench press 75lbs, yet they can break through 2ft of brix. Then you got shit like boxin' and sambo that don't focus on chi and inner power at all. Those MAs require physical strength, reflexes and the reading of your opponent, that's a very good human but not a super human.

They seem to generalize all MA. They think both Karate and Snake style help guys punch people thru buildings. Honestly, if you know how to defend yourself, you don't need martial arts. Again, Spider can sense your punch commin and simply evade, block or counter, that's not MA ability, that's natural/super natural skill.

I geuss Ryu is a more skilled fighter than Thor cuz Thor has no MA tarinin', despite the fact that Thor has been brawlin' for centuries and has more expeience than everyone in SF combined. Truthfully, when debatin' fictional charatcers, I don't even consider MA ability worth mentionin'.

[The Big Daddy C-Master]

Dec 22, 2009 19:31:52 GMT -5 Saikyo Kid said:

Dec 22, 2009 5:54:21 GMT -5 The Big Daddy C-Master said:

Well you have the SF characters and or guys like Karate Kid who have supernatural ability through MA and those are exceptions. It's just that MA is so wanked on KMC, if they are similar in power MA gives an edge, but I owned them by saying why is a punch from Spiderman sloppy while one from Captain America is some secret nerve strike? They're the same punch and if anything Spiderman's is fancier. But on that forum a character who has high MA stats has a super punch anyways, *sigh*.

Idiots. Do they even know that all martial arts aren't the same and serve different purposes. Karate focuses on focus and chi. Focusin' your inner strength allows you to do things that you usually wouldn't be able to do thru physical strength alone. Like how super skinny peeps can't bench press 75lbs, yet they can break through 2ft of brix. Then you got shit like boxin' and sambo that don't focus on chi and inner power at all. Those MAs require physical strength, reflexes and the reading of your opponent, that's a very good human but not a super human.

They seem to generalize all MA. They think both Karate and Snake style help guys punch people thru buildings. Honestly, if you know how to defend yourself, you don't need martial arts. Again, Spider can sense your punch commin and simply evade, block or counter, that's not MA ability, that's natural/super natural skill.

I geuss Ryu is a more skilled fighter than Thor cuz Thor has no MA tarinin', despite the fact that Thor has been brawlin' for centuries and has more expeience than everyone in SF combined. Truthfully, when debatin' fictional charatcers, I don't even consider MA ability worth mentionin'.

Well boxing and wrestling are MA's but experience counts. For some reason people say guys like Cap and Wolverine are more skilled fighters. It does depend though. You do have your prodigies and characters that are around Karate Kid level as well too.

[Dja Majista]

Think of how broken spidey would be if he actually used pressure points and arm barred people with his webs. Or maybe if he could slow his heart rate down to 3bpm.

[Saikyo Kid]

Dec 22, 2009 22:35:40 GMT -5 The Big Daddy C-Master said:

Dec 22, 2009 19:31:52 GMT -5 Saikyo Kid said:

Idiots. Do they even know that all martial arts aren't the same and serve different purposes. Karate focuses on focus and chi. Focusin' your inner strength allows you to do things that you usually wouldn't be able to do thru physical strength alone. Like how super skinny peeps can't bench press 75lbs, yet they can break through 2ft of brix. Then you got shit like boxin' and sambo that don't focus on chi and inner power at all. Those MAs require physical strength, reflexes and the reading of your opponent, that's a very good human but not a super human.

They seem to generalize all MA. They think both Karate and Snake style help guys punch people thru buildings. Honestly, if you know how to defend yourself, you don't need martial arts. Again, Spider can sense your punch commin and simply evade, block or counter, that's not MA ability, that's natural/super natural skill.

I geuss Ryu is a more skilled fighter than Thor cuz Thor has no MA tarinin', despite the fact that Thor has been brawlin' for centuries and has more expeience than everyone in SF combined. Truthfully, when debatin' fictional charatcers, I don't even consider MA ability worth mentionin'.

Well boxing and wrestling are MA's but experience counts. For some reason people say guys like Cap and Wolverine are more skilled fighters. It does depend though. You do have your prodigies and characters that are around Karate Kid level as well too.

Are we sayin' that these characters would be garbage witout the MA? Cap and Wolvy are super human/mutants who are like centuries old. I think those facts count more than MA ability, but that's just me, tho. The guys at KMC seem to think that MA is er thang.

[The Big Daddy C-Master]

Dec 24, 2009 0:08:15 GMT -5 Dja Majista said:

Think of how broken spidey would be if he actually used pressure points and arm barred people with his webs. Or maybe if he could slow his heart rate down to 3bpm.

There is a comic on him being more trained, it would help him but he is fine as is. Everybody would benefit from more training in one way or another.

[The Big Daddy C-Master]

Dec 24, 2009 0:45:34 GMT -5 Saikyo Kid said:

Dec 22, 2009 22:35:40 GMT -5 The Big Daddy C-Master said:

Well boxing and wrestling are MA's but experience counts. For some reason people say guys like Cap and Wolverine are more skilled fighters. It does depend though. You do have your prodigies and characters that are around Karate Kid level as well too.

Are we sayin' that these characters would be garbage witout the MA? Cap and Wolvy are super human/mutants who are like centuries old. I think those facts count more than MA ability, but that's just me, tho. The guys at KMC seem to think that MA is er thang.

ER thang? Kinda missed your point.

[Saikyo Kid]

Dec 24, 2009 1:02:05 GMT -5 The Big Daddy C-Master said:

Dec 24, 2009 0:45:34 GMT -5 Saikyo Kid said:

Are we sayin' that these characters would be garbage witout the MA? Cap and Wolvy are super human/mutants who are like centuries old. I think those facts count more than MA ability, but that's just me, tho. The guys at KMC seem to think that MA is er thang.

ER thang? Kinda missed your point.

Just sayin that I was browsin' that thread you made over at KMC and the dudes over there made it seem like martial arts MADE skill instead of bein' just a part of skill.

[The Big Daddy C-Master]

Well it *is* KMC.

[toobz]

99% of fighting ability comes from experience. If you fight a lot, and then walk into a martial arts studio you're going to know how to read your opponent and their body movements. Those skills can't be effectively taught. Martial arts are as good as teaching you how to strike effectively, thats it. How to punch, how to kick, etc. When it comes to a real fight though you'll be clueless unless you've had prior experience.

I don't read comics so I don't really give half a shit about the hulk doing karate.

[Saikyo Kid]

That's pretty well said.

[The Big Daddy C-Master]

Jan 28, 2010 2:19:26 GMT -5 toobz said:

99% of fighting ability comes from experience. If you fight a lot, and then walk into a martial arts studio you're going to know how to read your opponent and their body movements. Those skills can't be effectively taught. Martial arts are as good as teaching you how to strike effectively, thats it. How to punch, how to kick, etc. When it comes to a real fight though you'll be clueless unless you've had prior experience.

I don't read comics so I don't really give half a shit about the hulk doing karate.

Sounds about right, though effective movement with experience is great. If you go to a good fighting school they can give you some pretty nifty tools. Spiderman moves more effectively by default though.

[toobz]

Yeah. Martial arts are great for honing your reflexes and reaction speed and for grinding in basic movements into muscle memory. I've never been in a serious fight before, but I know for a fact that if I was in a bad situation, most of what I've learned from MA would be gone from my mind. However, if I fought a lot then the nerves wouldn't be so bad and I'd be able to think more clearly.

[The Big Daddy C-Master]

Right, what would likely happen is that you would have to "remember" it after the initial shock. The best self defense is to get yourself out of a situation that would get you into great physical harm.