Does God exist?

[The Big Daddy C-Master]

shakezula said:

I would also like to add that slavery, while being outlawed in most countries, still exists today. I know that most of the press and many government leaders like to neglect commenting on it, but there are people out there being forced to work against their will.

This is true, I've read up on this in college.

[tshern]

Just a quickie before I have to help my friend to renovate his place: Why was Jesus born 2000 years ago and walked around proving the existence of God? Why were those days so special?

[Dja Majista]

He wasn't just there to prove God's existence. Actually, most people already did believe in God. Jesus did intend to show that he was the Son of God however, which essentially just further proves God's existence anyway. Really, the reason God became flesh though was so that he could save us from our sins.
Does that answer your question?

Now, why doesn't he come back and show himself again?
Well, that goes back to my comment about faith a while ago. He wants us to have faith in him rather than just believe because we can physically see him. If you don't see the value in that I'll explain that as well.
But additionally, he doesn't want us to believe in him for no reason whatsoever, otherwise, what other wild things might we start believing? Hence the miracles, the prophecies fulfilled, and all the other various dents left on the Earth from God's wake.

[tshern]

That is the answer I get most of the time. He wants to refrain from showing himself in flesh just because he wants us to believe in him rather than know he is real? I can see so many issues with this. Moving a mountain, parting a sea, writing stonetables and removing tumors is just about as subtle as writing his name in the sky with stars.

Then another question: The Bible says several times that if you pray and believe, no matter what you ask for you shall get it. Before I'll get down and dirty with this topic: What do you think about this promise? Seeing that the effects of a prayer is mentioned many times in the Bible, which supposedly is the word of God himself, it should be true. You know, a perfect book written by a perfect being to his believers implies the promises he gives in the book are true.

[Dja Majista]

tshern said:

That is the answer I get most of the time. He wants to refrain from showing himself in flesh just because he wants us to believe in him rather than know he is real? I can see so many issues with this. Moving a mountain, parting a sea, writing stonetables and removing tumors is just about as subtle as writing his name in the sky with stars.

You think so? Then given all the Doctor's documentaries about tumors being removed miraculously, what keeps you from thinking it was God?
As for the others, I understand. You have to realize that the event of Jesus coming to the Earth marked a big change in God's "tactic" so to speak. Similar is the case with the exile. Before the exile was involved with his people on a large-scale, moving a mountain, parting a sea... (writing stone tables is a little easy to speculate btw.). After the Exile, God's works are more or less percieved on a smaller personal scale, as we see with people today. Though, during that time, you could say His voice was heard in the voices of the prophets, who all pointed at the coming of Jesus. So Jesus' coming represents God's last stomp on the Earth, marked by a plethora of outstanding miracles, and again, large-scale intervention.

So back to my babbling about God's "tactic." Knowing how the events tie in together can help you see how God comes down with large-scale miracles when the time calls for it (how else would He have been able to convince the people that He was Jesus?), otherwise, he sprinkles us with little personal miracles in our every day lives. Though you and me both know that these "personal" miracles couldn't possibly gain entry to a logical argument because it could simply be fabricated. He doesn't come down now and mark his entrance like he did with Jesus simply because he's already given his message. And reminding everyone that he exists every single day is definitely not part of his message.

Then another question: The Bible says several times that if you pray and believe, no matter what you ask for you shall get it. Before I'll get down and dirty with this topic: What do you think about this promise? Seeing that the effects of a prayer is mentioned many times in the Bible, which supposedly is the word of God himself, it should be true. You know, a perfect book written by a perfect being to his believers implies the promises he gives in the book are true.

I wish I knew every time it said that, so I could read it for myself. (I'll get on a concordance eventually.) But I think your interpretation is a bit misguided. I think it calls for the person to have a pure heart somewhere in there, and of course it can't contradict His purposes.
What do I think of the promise? I think it's 100% sincere, truthful, and fulfilled. And I invite you to hold me accountable to that claim.

Anyway what about those verses? We've left about a bazillion arguments hanging so far.

[tshern]

I'm just about to hit the hays here, but before I post any new arguments, I'll go through the last two pages and try to find the things I've left unanswered so far, collect them together and be as comprehensive as I can. I didn't even realize how many things we've abandoned after a sentence or two, before I gave it a thought. All in all, I'm off to bed and I wish you all a pleasant evening.

Edit: I'll just put this quote about prayers in the Bible before I forget it. No worries, there will be more.

I tell you the truth, if you have faith and do not doubt, not only can you do what was done to the fig tree, but also you can say to this mountain, 'Go, throw yourself into the sea,' and it will be done. If you believe, you will receive whatever you ask for in prayer.

That would be Matthew 21:21.

[Dja Majista]

Oh I see what it was now.

Yeah, good luck finding everything. My homework's been piling up a bit, so I don't expect I'll be able to reply very often.

[tshern]

And now I am here to postpone my compilation of unfinished business. I'm getting some pocket money by writing poems and short stories for people and now I have a small collection of poems to be finished for tomorrow. Why do I always write this things as an 8 hour marathon during the last possible night?

[tshern]

This is the compilation post I was talking about a few days back. With this I aim to collect most of the unaddressed points I have left out from my posts this far, possibly reinforce/reiterate some older arguments. I try to keep it short and include only the essentials, but this might be a lengthy post.

The quotes I use are either from the Bible itself, from my posts or from those of Da Masta. I bet you recognize which is which.

SPOILER: Click to show

We had relatively long discussion about God's plan and whether or not we actually can affect what happens to us here on Earth or in afterlife. Remember, according to Christianity the Bible is the word of God and Da Masta himself said this:

God is a perfect entity in every sense of the word

Combine that with this:

You saw me before I was born and scheduled each day of my life before I began to breathe. Every day was recorded in your book!

Psalm 139:16

In essence, the Bible itself said that our omnipotent God has planned EVERY SINGLE abortion, war, disease, genocide and whatever atrocities you can come up with. Holocaust is another fine example. We live in a world where God makes sure there will be a lot of suffering for those who might not even deserve it.

So your argument is proposed on the grounds that God is not only omniscient; he is bound to his omniscience which I would opt to disagree with.

I think the Bible quote answers to this one as well.

SPOILER: Click to show

Notice how the above passage tells of how the contents of the books detailing the people's deeds are made: according to what they had done. This indicates that the deeds weren't recorded until after the deeds were committed.
Conclusion: God fulfilled his agenda by giving people an initially blank book of life.

You saw me before I was born and scheduled each day of my life before I began to breathe. Every day was recorded in your book!

Psalm 139:16

You just have to love psalms.

SPOILER: Click to show

And I think Jesus has been pretty successful at making himself known to the people of the world.

So why does he not answer prayers anymore? Take 38 devout believers to a casino and ask them to pray for different numbers in roulette. Logically speaking, what is the chance of winning for a random believer? I would say 1/38. However, according to Mark 11:24 my estimate is wrong.

Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask for in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours.

Oh wait, there are more of these!

If you ask anything in my name, I will do it

John 14:14

Ask, and it will be given you.

Matthew 7:7

Nothing will be impossible to you.

Matthew 17:20

Believe that you have received it, and it will be yours

Mark 11:24

What I mean is that God says several times that no matter what you pray for, you will get it. However, that does not seem to be the case. Doesn't that make God a liar? Seeing that he does not fulfill his promises, why should you believe him?

SPOILER: Click to show

OK that being established, it is also important to recognize heaven as a gift not something that humans deserve. Furthermore, the rejection of Jesus Christ is the rejection of God's gift of salvation.

Why exactly has God created a world where the default setting is that people get punished? I dare say it is very sinister to punish billions upon billions of people for not believing in his word especially since he offers nothing tangible back. Prayer, the medium we are supposed to use to reach God, does not work as I already established. Or if it does, prove it to me. There a nice little field next to my apartment, ask God to erect another Empire State Building on that very field.

My main issues with afterlife are God's decision to just punish everyone for a mistake two people made and the fact that he has lied to us before several times. Why should we believe in afterlife of which we have no evidence?

SPOILER: Click to show

First some biblical references on my behalf:

The law of the Lord is perfect, reviving the soul.

Psalm 19:7

Above all, you must understand that no prophecy of Scripture came about by the prophet's own interpretation. For prophecy never had its origin in the will of man, but men spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit.

Peter 1:20-21

And we also thank God constantly for this, that when you received the word of God which you heard from us, you accepted it not as the word of men but as what it really is, the word of God.

1 Thessalonians 2:13

Those quotes should prove the Bible indeed was written by God, at least according to the Christian view. Any objections?

And he that is eight days old shall be circumcised among you, every man child in your generations, he that is born in the house, or bought with money of any stranger, which is not of thy seed. He that is born in thy house, and he that is bought with thy money, must needs be circumcised.

Genesis chapter 17, verse 12

Why does not God say a word against slavery here? He seems to be very comfortable with the concept of buying people. To me that is not very fair.

The Lord said to Moses and Aaron, "These are the regulations for the Passover: No foreigner is to eat of it. Any slave you have bought may eat of it after you have circumcised him, but a temporary resident and a hired worker may not eat of it."

And here Exodus chapter 12 verse 43 specifies that God indeed refers to slavery in the Bible and does nothing to object it. Would an all-loving creature speak of slavery thusly?

If a man beats his male or female slave with a rod and the slave dies as a direct result, he must be punished, but he is not to be punished if the slave gets up after a day or two, since the slave is his property.

Exodus Chapter 21, verse 20:

I am sorry, this piece of God's glorious message makes me feel sick. So first it is made sure that everyone understands that the Bible was made by God himself and then he justifies beating slaves up like punchbags? Sorry for not considering God a nice fellow.

And here now I'll get started with women.

As in all the congregations of the saints, women should remain silent in the churches. They are not allowed to speak, but must be in submission, as the Law says. If they want to inquire about something, they should ask their own husbands at home; for it is disgraceful for a woman to speak in the church.

1 Corinthians chapter 14

So women should stay quiet in the church? Please make sure that your brides remain silent when you get married or thou shalt be smitten.

This is my covenant, which you shall keep, between me and you and your descendants after you: Every male among you shall be circumcised. You shall be circumcised in the flesh of your foreskins, and it shall be a sign of the covenant between me and you.

Genesis chapter 17

No covenant for women makes me a sad panda.

I write to you, fathers, because you have known him who is from the beginning. I write to you, young men, because you have overcome the evil one. I write to you, dear children, because you have known the Father.

1 John 2:13

Kind of sad too, no word about women here either.

Also consider these: Were any of Jesus' disciples women? How many elders of the Book of Revelation were women? How many books in the Bible were written by women? Add those figures together and multiply it by hundred and you still get a zero.

More to come.

[tshern]

I've been working 12-hours shifts lately, so I haven't had the time to post more, but any comments in regards to the stuff I have collected would be greatly appreciated. Good or bad, shoot.

[The Big Daddy C-Master]

I'm going to have to look through that compilation of posts later, I didn't notice it until now.

[jackred]

If god was here don't you think he wanted us to know it like.
Just kidding I wish I was god someone the world wouldn't be in a hell hole.

Of course violence would still be around.

[The Big Daddy C-Master]

Real violence?

[burningthought]

I think he definaltey does not excist, not only is it scientifically impossible and theres no real evidence imo for such claims but in the end, I belive its simply once again people in the real world having a way of controlling the populous and creating right and wrong and at the end of it, throw a ridiculous load of "your going to hell if you do X, Y or Z naughty act" around.

Overall, he is a manifestation of imagination so people can control other people and control behavior, I think in the end its going to be a form of evolution from the human race to close all churches and stop such belief, sort of like when Slavery has been dissolved, it was evolution for man to understand they were all men and such, just like how Man will one day imo understand there is no such thing as this religion.

[The Big Daddy C-Master]

Jul 12, 2008 5:17:45 GMT -5 burningthought said:

I think he definaltey does not excist, not only is it scientifically impossible and theres no real evidence imo for such claims but in the end, I belive its simply once again people in the real world having a way of controlling the populous and creating right and wrong and at the end of it, throw a ridiculous load of "your going to hell if you do X, Y or Z naughty act" around.

Overall, he is a manifestation of imagination so people can control other people and control behavior, I think in the end its going to be a form of evolution from the human race to close all churches and stop such belief, sort of like when Slavery has been dissolved, it was evolution for man to understand they were all men and such, just like how Man will one day imo understand there is no such thing as this religion.

So you believe that everyone does it to have control over other people? Do you not believe then that any of them do it because they feel it's right, or beneficial to other people?

[burningthought]

I think the highest autohrities, Pope, Bishops etc etc, I think the main reason why it excists today is due to its control properties, to some people it may be beneficial but only if their parents or in early life they are told to pray or etc etc, if they have grown to watn to belive it, then it may help them, but that can be the same for many things and activities, for example theres murderers who think its good to murder and good for htem just because they have belived it, but ofcourse this is bad, Religion imo is also one of those things that people belive are good, only when theyve actually got into it themselves, I think if there was zero religion in the world and everyone suddenly said "okie were spending a lot of money, time etc etc and killing in the name of god (terrorists) all for nothing, lets just stop" I think the world would be a better place.

From my point of view, money used to help research into treating the sick is far better than using it to create a church for an invisible being of belief. Actions should happen for real and physical problems today,imo God is not real so I think its a waste of time. Those who "believe" its good or right is not necessary, in the end its control, there should be other ways, less expensive or less time consuming than having religion, just good teaching should do it.

[The Big Daddy C-Master]

Jul 12, 2008 10:32:59 GMT -5 burningthought said:

I think the highest autohrities, Pope, Bishops etc etc, I think the main reason why it excists today is due to its control properties, to some people it may be beneficial but only if their parents or in early life they are told to pray or etc etc, if they have grown to watn to belive it, then it may help them, but that can be the same for many things and activities, for example theres murderers who think its good to murder and good for htem just because they have belived it, but ofcourse this is bad, Religion imo is also one of those things that people belive are good, only when theyve actually got into it themselves, I think if there was zero religion in the world and everyone suddenly said "okie were spending a lot of money, time etc etc and killing in the name of god (terrorists) all for nothing, lets just stop" I think the world would be a better place.

From my point of view, money used to help research into treating the sick is far better than using it to create a church for an invisible being of belief. Actions should happen for real and physical problems today,imo God is not real so I think its a waste of time. Those who "believe" its good or right is not necessary, in the end its control, there should be other ways, less expensive or less time consuming than having religion, just good teaching should do it.

I don't blame religion itself for the killing of people, it's the people behind the religion.

Why not blame the person who created said weapons for the killing of people? Because it's not their fault directly, it's the person behind the weapon.

[burningthought]

Well religion itself is a symbol of control, which allows the people behind it to control it, if it never excisted then they would have to use something else, maybe something not half as good as an image to use to control people. If i raised a ham sandwitch in the air and said for this sandwitch go and kill me someone, nobody in their right mind would even be interested, they would sneer, joke, and overall it may be amusing, however if i said theres an all powerful being and he loves you but wants you to do something and youll get into a place called heaven where you will have the benefits of this place then its more likely these people will join me, the main reason behind this crude example is that there are a lot of ways to control someone or ways to try, but religion has become and has been one of those controllers that allow people behind the religion to control.

Well actually a lot of people do blame thosie responsible for making weapons like the atomic bomb for instance, however in the end if it never excisted, you cannot use it.

[The Big Daddy C-Master]

Jul 12, 2008 13:18:41 GMT -5 burningthought said:

Well religion itself is a symbol of control, which allows the people behind it to control it, if it never excisted then they would have to use something else, maybe something not half as good as an image to use to control people. If i raised a ham sandwitch in the air and said for this sandwitch go and kill me someone, nobody in their right mind would even be interested, they would sneer, joke, and overall it may be amusing, however if i said theres an all powerful being and he loves you but wants you to do something and youll get into a place called heaven where you will have the benefits of this place then its more likely these people will join me, the main reason behind this crude example is that there are a lot of ways to control someone or ways to try, but religion has become and has been one of those controllers that allow people behind the religion to control.

Well actually a lot of people do blame thosie responsible for making weapons like the atomic bomb for instance, however in the end if it never excisted, you cannot use it.

Or you could use it with discretion.

There are religions out there that emphasize killing others and conquering, that is true. But people worshipped Gold statues and other objects all of the same. Because one person has a twisted belief of a word (even though we all are guilty of manipulating something to suit us) it doesn't mean all religion is bad.

How many people have killed over greed, or because they had nothing leading them in the right direction? I can speak for my religion and tell you that it is more about servitude and not control. I can't speak for all of the others, but from what I have studied they aren't telling people to go out and destroy life, the people are doing that.

[Dja Majista]

Sure, any good religion brings about some form of control. If the religion is convincing enough to it's followers, control will follow. Control is a good thing at least half the time. It all depends on what's doing the controlling. The philosophies which constructed the United States government have created a nation that's survived, mostly unchanged, for more than 200 years. How? Control has a role in it, just like in every good government.

As to your statement about science proving God doesn't exist, I'd like to see that. Science is a fantastic source of knowledge for understanding our world (Actually, that's kind of redundant since science basically means knowledge... oh well), yet we have to understand that science is as limited as we are. The sciences, generally speaking, are strictly empirical. It employs the senses in everything. Senses are the end all and be all of science. Now, we have five, all of which (if you believe the theory of evolution to be true) were developed simply to aid us in our survival... Now what is the likelihood that we would be able to detect any substance in the universe with a set of senses whose ability to detect things unnecessary for survival is merely coincidental. If we restrict our knowledge to our senses, which most of the time we just about have to, it follows that our knowledge of the universe is restricted significantly as well. That's just how I see it. It seems a bit unfair to say for certain that God can't exist, based simply on science or "what we know."

[The Big Daddy C-Master]

Jul 12, 2008 22:01:59 GMT -5 Dja Majista said:

Sure, any good religion brings about some form of control. If the religion is convincing enough to it's followers, control will follow. Control is a good thing at least half the time. It all depends on what's doing the controlling. The philosophies which constructed the United States government have created a nation that's survived, mostly unchanged, for more than 200 years. How? Control has a role in it, just like in every good government.

As to your statement about science proving God doesn't exist, I'd like to see that. Science is a fantastic source of knowledge for understanding our world (Actually, that's kind of redundant since science basically means knowledge... oh well), yet we have to understand that science is as limited as we are. The sciences, generally speaking, are strictly empirical. It employs the senses in everything. Senses are the end all and be all of science. Now, we have five, all of which (if you believe the theory of evolution to be true) were developed simply to aid us in our survival... Now what is the likelihood that we would be able to detect any substance in the universe with a set of senses whose ability to detect things unnecessary for survival is merely coincidental. If we restrict our knowledge to our senses, which most of the time we just about have to, it follows that our knowledge of the universe is restricted significantly as well. That's just how I see it. It seems a bit unfair to say God can't exist, and we know it.

I agree with that statement. It is having the control, and not abusing it, that matters.

[Squid Lord]

Just a quickie question , are those who do believe in god non-believers in evolution?

[Dja Majista]

not necessarily. The beginning of genesis can have many interpretations. There is the more common fundamentalist view, which takes the creation story literally. Then there is the metaphorical interpretation, a common scholarly interpretation which recognizes the two creation stories as separate entities, as if the Word is specifically saying that these stories were simply meant to convey truths rather than provide an accurate factual account.

[The Big Daddy C-Master]

Jul 13, 2008 0:16:09 GMT -5 Squid Lord said:

Just a quickie question , are those who do believe in god non-believers in evolution?

I don't believe you have either, and I personally believe in evolution to an extent, but I don't believe man grew from some single celled life form and gradually went on from there. I can't say how the others feel.

[burningthought]

I think Evolution is a better explanation than God imo

But overall, my quibs in god excisting is in the fact theres no real proof, its logically impossible, its improbable and overall pointless, we dont require belief in this entity.

In the end, my view is that its a money sink that is wasted on churches and other sad things, a pointless control when we have control in law and such already, In the end its a pointless endeaver and a waste of time, we need to evolve from it.

[Dja Majista]

Jul 13, 2008 13:30:00 GMT -5 burningthought said:

I think Evolution is a better explanation than God imo

I don't think their exclusive of eachother. And sure Evolution explains the origin of life, but the origin of the universe has never really had a solid theory behind it. I mean, there's the big bang theory, but that's more of a theory on how the universe works. There will be a big bang again after the universe collapses into itself. One big bang of many did not mark the beginning of the universe.

But overall, my quibs in god excisting is in the fact theres no real proof, its logically impossible, its improbable and overall pointless, we dont require belief in this entity.

Logically impossible? Explain.

In the end, my view is that its a money sink that is wasted on churches and other sad things, a pointless control when we have control in law and such already, In the end its a pointless endeaver and a waste of time, we need to evolve from it.

That's not fair to the churches who are doing what they're supposed to do. Just because we see churches wasting money on luxury, doesn't mean the religion is wrong. I know my church does tons of stuff to help the community. If it wasn't for that place, the community would be rotting pretty bad. So I believe the church serves many beneficial and utilitarian functions aside from just giving people a place to worship.

[The Big Daddy C-Master]

Jul 13, 2008 13:30:00 GMT -5 burningthought said:

I think Evolution is a better explanation than God imo

But overall, my quibs in god excisting is in the fact theres no real proof, its logically impossible, its improbable and overall pointless, we dont require belief in this entity.

In the end, my view is that its a money sink that is wasted on churches and other sad things, a pointless control when we have control in law and such already, In the end its a pointless endeaver and a waste of time, we need to evolve from it.

So do you think the law is always perfect and right in it's actions? The law permitted slavery and segregation at one time.

[burningthought]

Jul 13, 2008 14:05:22 GMT -5 Dja Majista said:

Jul 13, 2008 13:30:00 GMT -5 burningthought said:

I think Evolution is a better explanation than God imo

I don't think their exclusive of eachother. And sure Evolution explains the origin of life, but the origin of the universe has never really had a solid theory behind it. I mean, there's the big bang theory, but that's more of a theory on how the universe works. There will be a big bang again after the universe collapses into itself. One big bang of many did not mark the beginning of the universe.

Logically impossible? Explain.

In the end, my view is that its a money sink that is wasted on churches and other sad things, a pointless control when we have control in law and such already, In the end its a pointless endeaver and a waste of time, we need to evolve from it.

That's not fair to the churches who are doing what they're supposed to do. Just because we see churches wasting money on luxury, doesn't mean the religion is wrong. I know my church does tons of stuff to help the community. If it wasn't for that place, the community would be rotting pretty bad. So I believe the church serves many beneficial and utilitarian functions aside from just giving people a place to worship.

Its impossible logically that an all powerful invisbile entity excists, its not logical, it doesnt work, there would be no requirement for such an entity either, the human race doesnt need to even belive in one, it wastes time.

Then scrap churches and religion for teaching common sense and caring for others and utilirarian houses where people and the community can be helped.

Jul 13, 2008 15:42:36 GMT -5 The Big Daddy C-Master said:

Jul 13, 2008 13:30:00 GMT -5 burningthought said:

So do you think the law is always perfect and right in it's actions? The law permitted slavery and segregation at one time.

Ofcourse not, but we know the law is real, God we dont know about, he is simply a belief.

[The Big Daddy C-Master]

Jul 13, 2008 18:15:33 GMT -5 burningthought said:

Jul 13, 2008 14:05:22 GMT -5 Dja Majista said:

I don't think their exclusive of eachother. And sure Evolution explains the origin of life, but the origin of the universe has never really had a solid theory behind it. I mean, there's the big bang theory, but that's more of a theory on how the universe works. There will be a big bang again after the universe collapses into itself. One big bang of many did not mark the beginning of the universe.

Logically impossible? Explain.


That's not fair to the churches who are doing what they're supposed to do. Just because we see churches wasting money on luxury, doesn't mean the religion is wrong. I know my church does tons of stuff to help the community. If it wasn't for that place, the community would be rotting pretty bad. So I believe the church serves many beneficial and utilitarian functions aside from just giving people a place to worship.

Its impossible logically that an all powerful invisbile entity excists, its not logical, it doesnt work, there would be no requirement for such an entity either, the human race doesnt need to even belive in one, it wastes time.

Then scrap churches and religion for teaching common sense and caring for others and utilirarian houses where people and the community can be helped.

Jul 13, 2008 15:42:36 GMT -5 The Big Daddy C-Master said:

Jul 13, 2008 13:30:00 GMT -5 burningthought said:

So do you think the law is always perfect and right in it's actions? The law permitted slavery and segregation at one time.

Ofcourse not, but we know the law is real, God we dont know about, he is simply a belief.

Well we know about him, but you are saying we don't have a tangible sense of him.

Do we discard things we readily don't have physical access to?

[burningthought]

God isnt just a lack of physical access, we dont have real evidence, its like believing in the boogie man or santa claus or a pokemon universe living under my bed, I just dont believe their real.