The Transformers and the Origin of Faith

[pinstrike]

So here's how I see it.

The Judeo/Christian faith system lumps the forces that dictate the universe's existence into two distinct, primarily opposite factions--these being of good and evil, flagheaded by God/Jesus and The Devil respetively.

But where did this ideology of two perpetually warring sects of ultra-powerful entities come from?

This question has sent the minds of theologians reeling with confusion and puzzlement.

But I can safely say that I have the answer.
Or at least the best one anyone with a Master's Degree hasn't come up with.

So imagine, for a moment if you will, a quiet village in near-prehistoric mesopotamia on the banks of what we now call the Euphrates River.
These people live in harmony and comfort, but without any explanation for the mysterious forces of nature that occur around them everyday.

Then, imagine a great rain, much like a monsoon, and the river overflows and the fields are flooded and the cattle drown and the village is ruined.

People die, and the first question that rises from the rubble is: Why?

Now, meanwhile, the treacherous Decepticons have raced to earth in retreat from perhaps another battle with the Autobots, and they happen to crash-land only a few miles away from said village.

Megatron, leader of the Decepticons, and his troops are seen falling from the storm clouds in a brilliant white and purple light (the plasma rifles most likely leaking ammunition, or perhaps the reaction of their energon Sparks to the intense heat of entering our planet's atmosphere).

Perhaps days or weeks later, Megatron--a colossal beast of a machine, shining brilliant white and chrome and followed by an army of massive robots of like size--arrives at the village's ruins. The people, being tired and dying and hungry and in desparate need of answers, immediately fall to the feet of this being, and call him their god, and the rest of the Decepticons are assigned diety names and roles.

Megatron puts the pieces together, being the decietful and manipulative genius that he is, and gives the people the answer they so desparately crave in regards to the destruction of their village. His timing could not have been more opportune for his conquest of this planet.

He sees that the people are dull and primitive, but he has seen their tendency for anger and violence.

Using both this fact, his cunning, and his megalomaniacal ego, he demands that the people of the area worship him, and in order to prevent any further floods or like disasters, they must sacrifice their strongest, oldest, and most intelligent fellow humans in the name of their god--Megatron.

The other Decepticons, such as Starscream, also utilize the situation and readily make a display of their abilities--such as the power of flight, plasma cannons, gargantuan size, electric luminescence and shapeshifting--in order to proliferate the fear and awe that has been instilled in the primitive homo sapiens.

And they, the enemies of all free life, name themselves the gods and guardians of the human race.

Jump ahead to what may be years later, in hot pursuit of the Cybertronian renegades and their leader, Optimus Prime and the heroic Autobots arrive on Earth. They find Megatron and the Decepticons wallowing in the adoration and reverent fear of the sentient beings called Humans. Optimus sees the awful veil Megatron has succeeded in pulling over the eyes of these innocent natives, and attempts to lift it.

But the humans are desparate and adamant, and explain the monsoon and the floods and how Megatron claimed that all that and other like workings of the planet were his doing, and they made a point of the awesome powers of the evil robots posing s their protectors.

Optimus uses science and holographic examples where language barriers still provide ample obstacles. The people are afraid of this new threat to Megatron, their foundation and their god, so they shun Optimus and the Autobots.

And so, these, the true protectors of freedom and peace, become the anti-gods, the proverbial Bad Guys.

The primitiveness of humankind's need for a leader led them right into the arns of the cruelest despot in the universe.

And, of course, during this time in pre-history, the factions waged their wars in sky and on land and with fire and plasma blasts, and the humans were rooting for the wrong team the whole time. And, more than likely, the Decepticons, who were greater in number and more adapted to the terrain and conditions of our planet, triumphed more often than the Autobots, who must have been seen as the meddling imps and villains unable to stand against the awesome might of their God...

Gradually, as polytheism gave way to monotheism, the Autobots ceased to be gods of a different pantheon, but the all-out enemies of the Good Guys, being God and his Angels (Megatron and the Decepticons). So the Autobots came to occupy the subterranean caverns and caves in the mountains of the desert, where they used fire and built vast machines to mine the earth's minerals. These underground bases were probably constantly filled with an ominous red glow from the molten metal and tools used during the frequent construction and repairs. From here is where the classic vision of Hell is most likely derived.


--------------------------------------------------------

Now, let's look at what we know or what is found in popular culture about some other facets of the Judeo/Christian faiths and how they correlate with the Transformers Theory.

--The Old Testament "God" was one of wrath and power and demand.
----Megatron demands sacrifices and worship from the human villagers.

-- Images of God were more often described as Him shining with a brilliant white light, and being accompanied by fire and angelic beings of great might.
------Megatron's primary colour-scheme is white and silver, and the hot desert sun shining through an un-polluted atmosphere would give off a near-blinding gleam; especially from the angle from which an average human would be staring up at him.

--The Devil has always been the adversary of God, and if the serpent truly is a representation of the Great Adversary (still a debate among most theologians) is first introduced trying to lead humans to knowledge and away from the blind demands of God in the Garden of Eden.
------Optimus Prime uses science and technology to try and dethrone Megatron.

--The Devil has been popularly, since the earliest accounts, depicted as a horned creature and has almost always been associated with the colour red, but in quite a few early middle-eastern illuminations, he is primarily blue. But there are next to no examples found without the horns.
----- Optimus Prime's antennae can easily be taken for horns, especially by a primitive villager. And need I really remind anyone of Prime's colour-scheme?

----------------------------------------------------------
So. There you have it so far. I'm sure the theory falls easily into place regarding other scions of the Judeo/Christian Old Testament belief system, and may even correlate with some teachings of Christ, but that is another theory altogether, which I'm sure will come to be discussed somewhere later in this thread.

Anyway, you have just read what I hold as the most believable and most logical origin of the monotheistic and factionized belief system that is still followed by hundreds of millions of sentient beings today.

[The Big Daddy C-Master]

pinstrike said:

So here's how I see it.

The Judeo/Christian faith system lumps the forces that dictate the universe's existence into two distinct, primarily opposite factions--these being of good and evil, flagheaded by God/Jesus and The Devil respetively.

But where did this ideology of two perpetually warring sects of ultra-powerful entities come from?

This question has sent the minds of theologians reeling with confusion and puzzlement.

But I can safely say that I have the answer.
Or at least the best one anyone with a Master's Degree hasn't come up with.

So imagine, for a moment if you will, a quiet village in near-prehistoric mesopotamia on the banks of what we now call the Euphrates River.
These people live in harmony and comfort, but without any explanation for the mysterious forces of nature that occur around them everyday.

Then, imagine a great rain, much like a monsoon, and the river overflows and the fields are flooded and the cattle drown and the village is ruined.

People die, and the first question that rises from the rubble is: Why?

Now, meanwhile, the treacherous Decepticons have raced to earth in retreat from perhaps another battle with the Autobots, and they happen to crash-land only a few miles away from said village.

Megatron, leader of the Decepticons, and his troops are seen falling from the storm clouds in a brilliant white and purple light (the plasma rifles most likely leaking ammunition, or perhaps the reaction of their energon Sparks to the intense heat of entering our planet's atmosphere).

Perhaps days or weeks later, Megatron--a colossal beast of a machine, shining brilliant white and chrome and followed by an army of massive robots of like size--arrives at the village's ruins. The people, being tired and dying and hungry and in desparate need of answers, immediately fall to the feet of this being, and call him their god, and the rest of the Decepticons are assigned diety names and roles.

Megatron puts the pieces together, being the decietful and manipulative genius that he is, and gives the people the answer they so desparately crave in regards to the destruction of their village. His timing could not have been more opportune for his conquest of this planet.

He sees that the people are dull and primitive, but he has seen their tendency for anger and violence.

Using both this fact, his cunning, and his megalomaniacal ego, he demands that the people of the area worship him, and in order to prevent any further floods or like disasters, they must sacrifice their strongest, oldest, and most intelligent fellow humans in the name of their god--Megatron.

The other Decepticons, such as Starscream, also utilize the situation and readily make a display of their abilities--such as the power of flight, plasma cannons, gargantuan size, electric luminescence and shapeshifting--in order to proliferate the fear and awe that has been instilled in the primitive homo sapiens.

And they, the enemies of all free life, name themselves the gods and guardians of the human race.

Jump ahead to what may be years later, in hot pursuit of the Cybertronian renegades and their leader, Optimus Prime and the heroic Autobots arrive on Earth. They find Megatron and the Decepticons wallowing in the adoration and reverent fear of the sentient beings called Humans. Optimus sees the awful veil Megatron has succeeded in pulling over the eyes of these innocent natives, and attempts to lift it.

But the humans are desparate and adamant, and explain the monsoon and the floods and how Megatron claimed that all that and other like workings of the planet were his doing, and they made a point of the awesome powers of the evil robots posing s their protectors.

Optimus uses science and holographic examples where language barriers still provide ample obstacles. The people are afraid of this new threat to Megatron, their foundation and their god, so they shun Optimus and the Autobots.

And so, these, the true protectors of freedom and peace, become the anti-gods, the proverbial Bad Guys.

The primitiveness of humankind's need for a leader led them right into the arns of the cruelest despot in the universe.

And, of course, during this time in pre-history, the factions waged their wars in sky and on land and with fire and plasma blasts, and the humans were rooting for the wrong team the whole time. And, more than likely, the Decepticons, who were greater in number and more adapted to the terrain and conditions of our planet, triumphed more often than the Autobots, who must have been seen as the meddling imps and villains unable to stand against the awesome might of their God...

Gradually, as polytheism gave way to monotheism, the Autobots ceased to be gods of a different pantheon, but the all-out enemies of the Good Guys, being God and his Angels (Megatron and the Decepticons). So the Autobots came to occupy the subterranean caverns and caves in the mountains of the desert, where they used fire and built vast machines to mine the earth's minerals. These underground bases were probably constantly filled with an ominous red glow from the molten metal and tools used during the frequent construction and repairs. From here is where the classic vision of Hell is most likely derived.


--------------------------------------------------------

Now, let's look at what we know or what is found in popular culture about some other facets of the Judeo/Christian faiths and how they correlate with the Transformers Theory.

--The Old Testament "God" was one of wrath and power and demand.
----Megatron demands sacrifices and worship from the human villagers.

-- Images of God were more often described as Him shining with a brilliant white light, and being accompanied by fire and angelic beings of great might.
------Megatron's primary colour-scheme is white and silver, and the hot desert sun shining through an un-polluted atmosphere would give off a near-blinding gleam; especially from the angle from which an average human would be staring up at him.

--The Devil has always been the adversary of God, and if the serpent truly is a representation of the Great Adversary (still a debate among most theologians) is first introduced trying to lead humans to knowledge and away from the blind demands of God in the Garden of Eden.
------Optimus Prime uses science and technology to try and dethrone Megatron.

--The Devil has been popularly, since the earliest accounts, depicted as a horned creature and has almost always been associated with the colour red, but in quite a few early middle-eastern illuminations, he is primarily blue. But there are next to no examples found without the horns.
----- Optimus Prime's antennae can easily be taken for horns, especially by a primitive villager. And need I really remind anyone of Prime's colour-scheme?

----------------------------------------------------------
So. There you have it so far. I'm sure the theory falls easily into place regarding other scions of the Judeo/Christian Old Testament belief system, and may even correlate with some teachings of Christ, but that is another theory altogether, which I'm sure will come to be discussed somewhere later in this thread.

Anyway, you have just read what I hold as the most believable and most logical origin of the monotheistic and factionized belief system that is still followed by hundreds of millions of sentient beings today.

Did you actually sit and type this?

[Dja Majista]

pinstrike said:

So here's how I see it.

The Judeo/Christian faith system lumps the forces that dictate the universe's existence into two distinct, primarily opposite factions--these being of good and evil, flagheaded by God/Jesus and The Devil respetively.

But where did this ideology of two perpetually warring sects of ultra-powerful entities come from?

This question has sent the minds of theologians reeling with confusion and puzzlement.

But I can safely say that I have the answer.
Or at least the best one anyone with a Master's Degree hasn't come up with.

So imagine, for a moment if you will, a quiet village in near-prehistoric mesopotamia on the banks of what we now call the Euphrates River.
These people live in harmony and comfort, but without any explanation for the mysterious forces of nature that occur around them everyday.

Then, imagine a great rain, much like a monsoon, and the river overflows and the fields are flooded and the cattle drown and the village is ruined.

People die, and the first question that rises from the rubble is: Why?

Now, meanwhile, the treacherous Decepticons have raced to earth in retreat from perhaps another battle with the Autobots, and they happen to crash-land only a few miles away from said village.

Megatron, leader of the Decepticons, and his troops are seen falling from the storm clouds in a brilliant white and purple light (the plasma rifles most likely leaking ammunition, or perhaps the reaction of their energon Sparks to the intense heat of entering our planet's atmosphere).

Perhaps days or weeks later, Megatron--a colossal beast of a machine, shining brilliant white and chrome and followed by an army of massive robots of like size--arrives at the village's ruins. The people, being tired and dying and hungry and in desparate need of answers, immediately fall to the feet of this being, and call him their god, and the rest of the Decepticons are assigned diety names and roles.

Megatron puts the pieces together, being the decietful and manipulative genius that he is, and gives the people the answer they so desparately crave in regards to the destruction of their village. His timing could not have been more opportune for his conquest of this planet.

He sees that the people are dull and primitive, but he has seen their tendency for anger and violence.

Using both this fact, his cunning, and his megalomaniacal ego, he demands that the people of the area worship him, and in order to prevent any further floods or like disasters, they must sacrifice their strongest, oldest, and most intelligent fellow humans in the name of their god--Megatron.

The other Decepticons, such as Starscream, also utilize the situation and readily make a display of their abilities--such as the power of flight, plasma cannons, gargantuan size, electric luminescence and shapeshifting--in order to proliferate the fear and awe that has been instilled in the primitive homo sapiens.

And they, the enemies of all free life, name themselves the gods and guardians of the human race.

Jump ahead to what may be years later, in hot pursuit of the Cybertronian renegades and their leader, Optimus Prime and the heroic Autobots arrive on Earth. They find Megatron and the Decepticons wallowing in the adoration and reverent fear of the sentient beings called Humans. Optimus sees the awful veil Megatron has succeeded in pulling over the eyes of these innocent natives, and attempts to lift it.

But the humans are desparate and adamant, and explain the monsoon and the floods and how Megatron claimed that all that and other like workings of the planet were his doing, and they made a point of the awesome powers of the evil robots posing s their protectors.

Optimus uses science and holographic examples where language barriers still provide ample obstacles. The people are afraid of this new threat to Megatron, their foundation and their god, so they shun Optimus and the Autobots.

And so, these, the true protectors of freedom and peace, become the anti-gods, the proverbial Bad Guys.

The primitiveness of humankind's need for a leader led them right into the arns of the cruelest despot in the universe.

And, of course, during this time in pre-history, the factions waged their wars in sky and on land and with fire and plasma blasts, and the humans were rooting for the wrong team the whole time. And, more than likely, the Decepticons, who were greater in number and more adapted to the terrain and conditions of our planet, triumphed more often than the Autobots, who must have been seen as the meddling imps and villains unable to stand against the awesome might of their God...

Gradually, as polytheism gave way to monotheism, the Autobots ceased to be gods of a different pantheon, but the all-out enemies of the Good Guys, being God and his Angels (Megatron and the Decepticons). So the Autobots came to occupy the subterranean caverns and caves in the mountains of the desert, where they used fire and built vast machines to mine the earth's minerals. These underground bases were probably constantly filled with an ominous red glow from the molten metal and tools used during the frequent construction and repairs. From here is where the classic vision of Hell is most likely derived.


--------------------------------------------------------

Now, let's look at what we know or what is found in popular culture about some other facets of the Judeo/Christian faiths and how they correlate with the Transformers Theory.

--The Old Testament "God" was one of wrath and power and demand.
----Megatron demands sacrifices and worship from the human villagers.

-- Images of God were more often described as Him shining with a brilliant white light, and being accompanied by fire and angelic beings of great might.
------Megatron's primary colour-scheme is white and silver, and the hot desert sun shining through an un-polluted atmosphere would give off a near-blinding gleam; especially from the angle from which an average human would be staring up at him.

--The Devil has always been the adversary of God, and if the serpent truly is a representation of the Great Adversary (still a debate among most theologians) is first introduced trying to lead humans to knowledge and away from the blind demands of God in the Garden of Eden.
------Optimus Prime uses science and technology to try and dethrone Megatron.

--The Devil has been popularly, since the earliest accounts, depicted as a horned creature and has almost always been associated with the colour red, but in quite a few early middle-eastern illuminations, he is primarily blue. But there are next to no examples found without the horns.
----- Optimus Prime's antennae can easily be taken for horns, especially by a primitive villager. And need I really remind anyone of Prime's colour-scheme?

----------------------------------------------------------
So. There you have it so far. I'm sure the theory falls easily into place regarding other scions of the Judeo/Christian Old Testament belief system, and may even correlate with some teachings of Christ, but that is another theory altogether, which I'm sure will come to be discussed somewhere later in this thread.

Anyway, you have just read what I hold as the most believable and most logical origin of the monotheistic and factionized belief system that is still followed by hundreds of millions of sentient beings today.

That's a very well constructed analysis.
I assume you're open to retort?
While I find this a reasonably good fit for the Judaism belief, there are several holes. As for Christianity, however, you throw Jesus into the equation, and instead of a God of wrath and demand as you see him, you have a God that sacrifices for his people. Trying to fit it into this one brings a lot more problems.
In regards to the relationship between Satan and God, it's hardly an idea of warring factions at all. God actually permits him to roam the Earth, and have dominion over it. If anything you might could say that Satan's equal would be Micheal, basically the chief warrior angel. Satan is far from omnipotent.
Additionally, Satan is viewed as the deciever for good reason.

--The Devil has always been the adversary of God, and if the serpent truly is a representation of the Great Adversary (still a debate among most theologians) is first introduced trying to lead humans to knowledge and away from the blind demands of God in the Garden of Eden.

The Great Adversary is first introduced telling a lie. He told them they wouldn't die. They did. This is very logical reasoning for saying he is a deciever.
Also understand that it wasn't just the tree of knowledge. It was the knowledge of good and evil. It's not like they were kept in the dark about everything. In fact good and evil didn't really even apply to them until they knew about it. God knew this. That's why he didn't want them eating from it.
I'm confused though as to why you believe God's demands were blind.

Just another thing that's always bothered me. Satan is not depicted in the bible as a little red man with horns. That's a very common misconception. To me that sounds almost like Grendel from beowulf. Yes, Satan was depicted as a serpent and a dragon. And prior to his fall from heaven he was the most beautiful angel. The bible does little to describe Satan's actual appearance.

[The Big Daddy C-Master]

You covered some good points David.

[Dja Majista]

admin said:

You covered some good points David.

Thank you.

[pinstrike]

Actually, I can easily fill in any holes you bring up.

First, the Jesus issue.
In an episode of the Generation 1 series, the Autobots used a science that enabled a way to transfer the data from their Sparks (Cybertronian soul/lifeforce) into human bodies. Of course, these Cybertronian earthlings retained some of their robotic traits--super strength, enhanced agility, hyperspeed information processing, holographic projections, etc.

Easily mistaken for miracles to the common pre-dark age Middle Easterner, and easily exxagerated through nations and over the span of two millenia.

Is it so unbelievable that the same existing science was developed much earlier for a specific purpose?

So, here's how it most likely went down.
Megatron had led the people of earth to believe in a cruel and angry god who punished disobedience with pain and death. Optimus Prime came to his senses after a while of watching human affairs from a distance, and realized that if the humans were going to require a god to follow, then it should be one that was concieved around Autobot ideals and doctrines-- peace, altruism and self-sacrifice.

So, a Spark was developed to belong to an Autobot much like the original Ironhide (who was, in the beginning, a radio/cassette player)--a messenger. Only this Autobot Spark would be honed and refined to where the only purpose it served was that of delivering the Autobot way of life, which was exxagerated itself so as to exclude the ideas of dissension and war in order to secure a stable and non-violent future for the earthlings.

So, a human was found--an infant dead upon delivery due to the complications during pregnancy and labour (the mother being a very young adolescent and the conditions being a stable at best).

The three "wise men" were in actuality the three Autobots closest to Prime himself--Ironhide, Bumblebee and Hot Rod bringing the spark to the mother. How they found her and the child is up to speculation, but really of no consequence.

So, basically, the one we call Christ was the ideal Autobot serving as a messenger to the humans whilst in a human form.
The ressurection story is simple in that the stone was rolled away by two Autobot soldiers, (the angels), and that the Spark of a Transformer doesn't die when the body does unless the chest is destroyed as well. The chest of Christ remains intact throughout the Crucifixion, so the Spark obviously survived, which allows that the Autobots repaired his human body using advanced medical techniques not even known today.

I mean, come on, all you true Transformers Fans, in the 1986 animated film did not the Junkions return a blown-up and dismembered Ultra Magnus to full function capability?

So, the prophecies Christ made were all in accordance with the Autobot plan which was laid out to make the idea more believable while at the same time provide more intimate experiences with the might of the Christian god?

As for the argument regarding Satan and God, yes, I am aware that Satan was God's right hand man up until his rebellion. But both that relationship and the rebellion story take place in the Old Testament, where Megatron was the ideal for God.
Who was Megatron's right-hand amigo? None other than Starscream, whom he's had loyalty issues since documented history.

See, here's an example: Starscream actually makes a bet with Megatron that he really isn't that important to the people of this planet. How does he intend to prove this? By destroying one man's life and seeing if he curses the idea of god. He destroys the man's family and estate with his plasma blaster, and due to his misery and lack of hygiene, he contracts boils and sores, which were quite common among the homeless and the beggars in such times.
The man never curses god. Love? no. Reverence? Maybe a little. Fear? Indeed.
Megatron put the fear of god into early man. Literally.

But let's say that Starscream gets jealous of Megatron's power or thinks he can do better or both. So he gets a "third of the heavenly host" i.e. third of the Decepticon forces. And he wages war against the head honcho.
Of course, he loses, and is banished to space for a long time.
But, Starscream and his forces had been an essential part of the Decepticon movement on Earth, and Megatron realizes this after a while, so Starscream is allowed back.

Of course, as Starscream was red and black and Prime is red and blue, and both have prominent head decoration, Starscream may have been mistaken for Prime, or vice versa, but, eventually, Prime became the idea of the Devil we know today.

And, indeed, Satan was supposed to be beautiful, and if you were to see a giant flying/transforming robot shining and leaking energon from its blasters and its jet engines, surely it would look like nothing anyone had ever concieved at the time. But, as humans progressed through the ages, and the devil became more and more of an interest, the image of him shifted to focus on other details--his colour, the fire, the smell of energon burning--and towards the more exploitable/negatively manipulatible features--horns, the fire, the smell of energon burning-- and voila, our popular picture of the Deciever.

So. There's some more to the theory.

But the humans hear what is revealed to them, and if there are any details to be filled in... well, people are more imaginative than we give them credit for.

And the Transformer factions each manipulated the stories that circulated through civilization in order to encourage the human way of life. It was more politics than anything else. Like what the Republicans and the Democrats tell the papers to print so people are influenced in their daily decision making. And if something dictates your everyday actions long enough, then it will dictate them when it really counts. Which is what each Cybertronian army wanted.

[Dja Majista]

pinstrike said:

Actually, I can easily fill in any holes you bring up.

First, the Jesus issue.
In an episode of the Generation 1 series, the Autobots used a science that enabled a way to transfer the data from their Sparks (Cybertronian soul/lifeforce) into human bodies. Of course, these Cybertronian earthlings retained some of their robotic traits--super strength, enhanced agility, hyperspeed information processing, holographic projections, etc.

Easily mistaken for miracles to the common pre-dark age Middle Easterner, and easily exxagerated through nations and over the span of two millenia.

Is it so unbelievable that the same existing science was developed much earlier for a specific purpose?

So, here's how it most likely went down.
Megatron had led the people of earth to believe in a cruel and angry god who punished disobedience with pain and death. Optimus Prime came to his senses after a while of watching human affairs from a distance, and realized that if the humans were going to require a god to follow, then it should be one that was concieved around Autobot ideals and doctrines-- peace, altruism and self-sacrifice.

So, a Spark was developed to belong to an Autobot much like the original Ironhide (who was, in the beginning, a radio/cassette player)--a messenger. Only this Autobot Spark would be honed and refined to where the only purpose it served was that of delivering the Autobot way of life, which was exxagerated itself so as to exclude the ideas of dissension and war in order to secure a stable and non-violent future for the earthlings.

So, a human was found--an infant dead upon delivery due to the complications during pregnancy and labour (the mother being a very young adolescent and the conditions being a stable at best).

The three "wise men" were in actuality the three Autobots closest to Prime himself--Ironhide, Bumblebee and Hot Rod bringing the spark to the mother. How they found her and the child is up to speculation, but really of no consequence.

So, basically, the one we call Christ was the ideal Autobot serving as a messenger to the humans whilst in a human form.
The ressurection story is simple in that the stone was rolled away by two Autobot soldiers, (the angels), and that the Spark of a Transformer doesn't die when the body does unless the chest is destroyed as well. The chest of Christ remains intact throughout the Crucifixion, so the Spark obviously survived, which allows that the Autobots repaired his human body using advanced medical techniques not even known today.

I mean, come on, all you true Transformers Fans, in the 1986 animated film did not the Junkions return a blown-up and dismembered Ultra Magnus to full function capability?

So, the prophecies Christ made were all in accordance with the Autobot plan which was laid out to make the idea more believable while at the same time provide more intimate experiences with the might of the Christian god?

As for the argument regarding Satan and God, yes, I am aware that Satan was God's right hand man up until his rebellion. But both that relationship and the rebellion story take place in the Old Testament, where Megatron was the ideal for God.
Who was Megatron's right-hand amigo? None other than Starscream, whom he's had loyalty issues since documented history.

See, here's an example: Starscream actually makes a bet with Megatron that he really isn't that important to the people of this planet. How does he intend to prove this? By destroying one man's life and seeing if he curses the idea of god. He destroys the man's family and estate with his plasma blaster, and due to his misery and lack of hygiene, he contracts boils and sores, which were quite common among the homeless and the beggars in such times.
The man never curses god. Love? no. Reverence? Maybe a little. Fear? Indeed.
Megatron put the fear of god into early man. Literally.

But let's say that Starscream gets jealous of Megatron's power or thinks he can do better or both. So he gets a "third of the heavenly host" i.e. third of the Decepticon forces. And he wages war against the head honcho.
Of course, he loses, and is banished to space for a long time.
But, Starscream and his forces had been an essential part of the Decepticon movement on Earth, and Megatron realizes this after a while, so Starscream is allowed back.

Of course, as Starscream was red and black and Prime is red and blue, and both have prominent head decoration, Starscream may have been mistaken for Prime, or vice versa, but, eventually, Prime became the idea of the Devil we know today.

And, indeed, Satan was supposed to be beautiful, and if you were to see a giant flying/transforming robot shining and leaking energon from its blasters and its jet engines, surely it would look like nothing anyone had ever concieved at the time. But, as humans progressed through the ages, and the devil became more and more of an interest, the image of him shifted to focus on other details--his colour, the fire, the smell of energon burning--and towards the more exploitable/negatively manipulatible features--horns, the fire, the smell of energon burning-- and voila, our popular picture of the Deciever.

So. There's some more to the theory.

But the humans hear what is revealed to them, and if there are any details to be filled in... well, people are more imaginative than we give them credit for.

And the Transformer factions each manipulated the stories that circulated through civilization in order to encourage the human way of life. It was more politics than anything else. Like what the Republicans and the Democrats tell the papers to print so people are influenced in their daily decision making. And if something dictates your everyday actions long enough, then it will dictate them when it really counts. Which is what each Cybertronian army wanted.

First of all, I’d like to say that until now, I knew next to nothing about transformers and the like but now I am edumacated. So thanks for the lesson! ;D

Now I want to just make sure we’re on the same page here. You’re saying in biblical terms Prime would translate to a Satan with good intentions who is mistaken for being evil because of Starscream who looks similar and does evil things. So basically your view of Satan is someone who is made to look bad by another being who inadvertently impersonates him. And additionally, Jesus would be an autobot.

One of your foundation premises is allegiances. And it appears to be very flawed in that two of the most commonly understood allies in the bible (God and Jesus) are in fact members of opposing factions according your analysis. I believe this tremendously threatens the veracity of your entire argument.

1. Jesus claimed allegiance with God, saying God is his father, and that he in fact is God himself.
2. A sense of cooperation is present: Jesus performs miracles and attributes them to God.
3. The God he expresses allegiance to is the same wrathful God from the old testament, the God of Abraham. This suggests a very conflicting set of ideals.
4. While Jesus certainly performs miracles that might be attributed to the vast technology of an autobot, some of them were too much even to make an illusion of. For example, Jesus, on two occasions feeds more than a thousand people from nothing but a couple loaves of bread. It is doubtless wheather or not the food was real because everyone ate some (until they were full for that matter), so it was no illusion. Secondly you’d have to believe the autobot was capable of creating matter out of nothing. It would also have to be able to calm a storm. Or alternatively, make a storm appear to be calm, which is arguably a bigger feat than actually calming one.

See, here's an example: Starscream actually makes a bet with Megatron that he really isn't that important to the people of this planet. How does he intend to prove this? By destroying one man's life and seeing if he curses the idea of god. He destroys the man's family and estate with his plasma blaster, and due to his misery and lack of hygiene, he contracts boils and sores, which were quite common among the homeless and the beggars in such times.
The man never curses god. Love? no. Reverence? Maybe a little. Fear? Indeed.
Megatron put the fear of god into early man. Literally.

This sounds suspiciously familiar to the story of Job. Am I right to make this comparison?
I will agree; he did indeed fear God. But his intentions were much more multidimensional than fear alone.

[pinstrike]

Yes, Jesus and God are, in the Christian faith, the closest of allies, if not one in the same. But that is how Humans interpereted the story. Behind the scenes, it was all Cybertronian politics trying to influence the alleigance of mankind. Christ was an Autobot messenger who spread the Autobot doctrine trying to lead the humans towards a healthier idea of god. His proclaiming himself the Son of God would be a Transformer's attempt to make Christ's message more potent. Cybertronians do not have children, but by watching the humans they must have found that such a bond between parent and child is the strongest and most unalterable that existed among us carbon based bipeds. So, how else to get people to think of a diety differently than to program Christ to deliver the idea that he was the very Child of what he advocated?

But congratulations on the question regarding the Feeding of the Thousands. That one actually has me stumped for the time being. But I invite any others, namely Esteemed Leader, who helped develop this theory with me, to pitch in their thoughts on this. I'm leaning towards a holographic projection of the food, which was later exxagerated into an actual feast. But I couldn't tell you right now. Give me time on that one.

But you misread my point on Satan.

Satan, or the Devil, the Enemy of the Ancient of Days, that started with Optimus. He tried to lead people away from Megatron. So, HE is the idea of The Adversary.

HOWEVER:
The STORY of the fall of the Morningstar comes from Starscream's rebellion against Megatron, which would have happened during Old Testament times. But due to their similar appearance and the warping of the details over centuries, the two were regarded as one in the same. Optimus Prime, however, is the primary avatar for the Devil.

[Dja Majista]

pinstrike said:

Yes, Jesus and God are, in the Christian faith, the closest of allies, if not one in the same. But that is how Humans interpereted the story. Behind the scenes, it was all Cybertronian politics trying to influence the alleigance of mankind. Christ was an Autobot messenger who spread the Autobot doctrine trying to lead the humans towards a healthier idea of god. His proclaiming himself the Son of God would be a Transformer's attempt to make Christ's message more potent. Cybertronians do not have children, but by watching the humans they must have found that such a bond between parent and child is the strongest and most unalterable that existed among us carbon based bipeds. So, how else to get people to think of a diety differently than to program Christ to deliver the idea that he was the very Child of what he advocated?

But congratulations on the question regarding the Feeding of the Thousands. That one actually has me stumped for the time being. But I invite any others, namely Esteemed Leader, who helped develop this theory with me, to pitch in their thoughts on this. I'm leaning towards a holographic projection of the food, which was later exxagerated into an actual feast. But I couldn't tell you right now. Give me time on that one.

But you misread my point on Satan.

Satan, or the Devil, the Enemy of the Ancient of Days, that started with Optimus. He tried to lead people away from Megatron. So, HE is the idea of The Adversary.

HOWEVER:
The STORY of the fall of the Morningstar comes from Starscream's rebellion against Megatron, which would have happened during Old Testament times. But due to their similar appearance and the warping of the details over centuries, the two were regarded as one in the same. Optimus Prime, however, is the primary avatar for the Devil.

But by siding with God, the autobot that is Jesus would be siding with Megatron. Not only that but this would also require an autobot to antagonize Optimus prime, because he is seen as Satan.
On top of that you have the ever-present question: Why would Megatron let this slide?
He must be aware that an autobot is claiming to be him, professing autobot ideals. And for Megatron to go unknowing of this would seem impossible. Two of the greatest figures in a day and age can’t possibly go ignorant of each other, especially when Megatron has a league of Decepticons at his command that could feed him information.
It would be a simple matter of Megatron simply smiting the autobot impersonator and being done with it. Jesus did have a following but not much of one until later on in his journey. Megatron would have had no reason to go along with the autobot’s plan. In fact, smiting the autobot would have shown that the Christ was indeed a madman and his teachings were false, because it would have shown that the autobot was lying about his identity all along. And with that it would deal a major blow to the autobot side of Cybertronian politics and make for a major victory to the decepticons.

But you misread my point on Satan.

Satan, or the Devil, the Enemy of the Ancient of Days, that started with Optimus. He tried to lead people away from Megatron. So, HE is the idea of The Adversary.

Ok, that’s what it sounded like.

But congratulations on the question regarding the Feeding of the Thousands… Give me time on that one.

You are well disciplined in the art of discussion. very few people have the guts to say “give me some time to think that out.” Mostly because they feel like they have to put something together on the spot. The worst thing a discussion can become is a race.

Yes, Jesus and God are, in the Christian faith, the closest of allies, if not one in the same. But that is how Humans interpereted the story. Behind the scenes, it was all Cybertronian politics trying to influence the alleigance of mankind.

You have mentioned several statements like this professing that details from the text have warped over time to make the biblical story we know today. But I don’t think you are incredibly aware of how unlikely this case is. Many people know that the accounts in the bible are real events, as you do. But few understand what sets apart biblical text from other historical documents. The original manuscripts are by no means in scarce supply. Far from it, in fact. And to top that off, the original copies that were made were designed with a virtually zero margin for error as I will explain below.
(btw The quote below was from a thread on the existence of God from several months back. Keep in mind that in it, I will refer to some personal knowledge that I will be happy to validate for you if you aren’t comfortable taking my word for it. However, it will take a while for me to contact the person and get them to send me the information.)

"…The bible consists of many different books canonized at different times; nobody made it in one sitting either. The original texts were handwritten manuscripts.

monks and scribes copied these manuscripts in a scriptorium..."

In each monastery there was usually one large room, called a Scriptorium, or a few smaller rooms, set aside especially for the copying of the Bible. These rooms were built so that they would have all the best possible natural light, thus enabling the monks to work at the task for as many daylight hours as possible. The monks worked in privacy, since copying was such an intense task. Usually, only the monk (scribe) and the superior could enter the scriptorium. Sometimes a group of monks would sit, patiently writing down the text of the Bible as it was read to them by another monk. In this way, several copies would be made at the same time. Lamps, or candles, were seldom used because of the danger of fire. The rooms were not heated so it made the work very difficult in cold weather. When a monk had finished copying one page, he gave it to another monk to check for accuracy. The latter gave it to another monk for decoration, if that were the plan.[/b]
www.scborromeo.org/truth/b3.htm

"...now this is my own knowledge. but if you really want me to show you references I'd be happy to:
It was a professional task. The guidelines for writing were incredibly strict. Extremely minor inconsistencies (such as not spacing characters the right length, or stray marks) resulted in the whole document getting tossed, and they would have to start over.
On top of that, even if these scribes were given an order by the king, they had the right to ignore him and continue their work.
Copying manuscripts was a very serious task."

For one to profess that these people did in fact make mistakes in the copying process would mean refusing to recognize the hellish work they put into making these copies.
Ultimately, the error in your assessment lies in the fact that we have access to all of these manuscripts to this day. And therefore, we are not limited to past interpretations of the bible because we may reinterpret the events from the original documents at any time.

On another note, you seem adamantly certain that there must be some alternative explanation to the stories in the bible. Why is it that all the accounts in the bible cannot be simply labeled as true? I know that this is a more personal question, but whenever I talk to an atheist, I’m always curious as to what makes them one. That being the first reason I ask; the other being that we do have some conflicting premises. Feel free to simply respond in a pm on your own time. I know it’s not extremely pertinent to your theory itself.

And one more thing, I believe you missed my previous question regarding Job. Do you know the story? If not, I don’t mind giving a quick summary.

[pinstrike]

It is a fair point to bring up Megatron's seeming absence from the plot set to break his alleigances and credibility. But certainly he must have had a hand in the politics of the Pharisees, and perhaps even employed the one we call Judas. But it is also to be noted that, perhaps earth was chosen for their "home-base", and the Transformers may have often left the planet to conquer or defend others in Megatron's grander scheme of total domination of the Universe. His attempts to influence and enslave worlds neither began nor ended with earth, making it entirely possible that the Autobots planned Operation Christ to coincide with one of his absences.

As for the feeding of the thousands...and I'm ashamed I didn't immediately think of this, and in fact had to call upon Esteemed Leader for assistance...It's not the creation of matter...It's matter Transplacement!

It's what their entire transforming physiology is based on. The transformations they undergo are due, first, to the scanning of a vehicle type and adapting their body structure to shapeshift into it. This means certain parts are transplaced elswhere on the robot's body, and this matter is itself physically changed in order to do so. It has also happened that Transformers have used the energy from their Sparks to "teleport" other objects from planets away!

So, quite simply, Christ used his Spark's energy to transplace enough matter to feed thousands in that one given area. The bread and fish were most likely taken from thousands of sources so as not to draw attention to their apparent dissappearance.

And I commend your information regarding the transferrance of religious texts, though I still find it hard to believe that human politics never played a roll. I mean, if all of these texts were never significantly altered, then why did the Church remove the books of the Apocrypha? Why, then, was the Book of Enoch removed? Why are the majority of the gospels absent from the accepted Scripture? If political motivation altered the Bible's table of contents, is it that farfetched to believe that the contents themselves underwent serious review and revision?

I believe that the stories the monks got and the stories that they transcribed were as similar as possible, given that your information is valid (which I believe it is), but the scriptures from which they were copying--How can we really know how warped the story became before it was written the FIRST time? The accuracy of the original documents themselves comes into question here. But, in that respect, I suppose is where Faith kicks in.

I will send you a pm regarding MY faith, as I do not want this discussion to become distracted.

And, I apologize for my negligence in answering your question on Job.
Yes, that was what I was referring to.

[The Big Daddy C-Master]

Whatever happened to this topic? Did David simply give up and Pinstrike got bored waiting and left?

[Dja Majista]

damn! I forgot all about it...
I'll see if I can pick up where I left off. Does pinstrike come back here anymore? I haven't seen him.

[pinstrike]

I'm back and ready to let loose my pent-up and exagerrated opinions! Let's go.

[Dja Majista]

See I'm taking this logic class and I've been learning the names of a bunch of fallacies. Speaking of which, your gonna be well acquainted with the ad hoc fallacy. But I prefer to have a real discussion again, so I'll refrain from such tactics. Anyway, I've got two threads that are waiting for me to post on at the moment, so I don't expect I'll be able to find time for them until oh say finals week, which will be two weeks from now. (I just realized I have a bunch of community service hours I need to take care of.)
Welcome back by the way.

[warmunger]

For a second I almost thought this was about the Transformers...

Wait...this IS about the Transformers. You typed a lot, I never knew it really went that deep.

[Dja Majista]

it's interesting isn't it? You don't really have to think of it as an argument that's about reality. It's more of a challenge, I would say.

[Psyquis52]

This is by far the most serious discussion I've ever heard involving the transformers




Well...




Maybe Optimus Prime vs. Darth Vader was more serious. It's hard to tell. ;D

[The Big Daddy C-Master]

It gives a new feel to any Transformers discussion doesn't it?

[Psyquis52]

A very surreal feel.

[The Big Daddy C-Master]

So how do you feel about the topic itself?

[Dja Majista]

It's fun. ;D

[Psyquis52]

It is fun. Beyond that....I think it's fairly conclusive.

[The Big Daddy C-Master]

I just meant about the theory, is it out there to you at all?

[Dja Majista]

It's kind of for fun... Or better yet to make a point.

[Psyquis52]

Apr 22, 2008 22:29:33 GMT -5 The Big Daddy C-Master said:

I just meant about the theory, is it out there to you at all?

I'm not entirely certain what you mean by "out there" but I'll certainly say that it's a little wacky to believe it.
Not that anyone does.

Still, it's pretty impressive and as Dja stated earlier it does make a point.

Namely - that one can believe we came in existance in any way they'd prefer and it wouldn't matter because there simply isn't enough physical proof.
I wouldn't be suprised at all if pinstrike could take this theory and make an actual cult of people who believe their savior returns riding on the next cataclysm.

[Dja Majista]

Yeah. That's about right. But also, how quickly someone can fabricate a non-falsifiable story to explain the origin of mankind and whatnot. However, I don't think that concept applies to much of the bible, but that's a different topic altogether.

[pinstrike]

I'm flattered by psyquis52's comment about the cult idea! You might be on to something there! Heh.
I never saw this topic going far. It was a thought that came at those hours too late to be awake, and then I got talking about it with EsteemedLeader, and it snowballed. It's scary, almost, how mush sense it makes by now. It would be even scarier for those subscribing to a monotheistic faith that with dutiful thought and research, their belief system can be equated ad compared to a plaything/cartoon mythos.
But that's a different topic altogether.

[Dja Majista]

You know, I honestly didn't know what this was all gonna be about when I started debating either. It sort of turned into a simulation of someone building a religion. With a few differences. You know how basically all religions give etiologies and explanations for why things are the way they are on the basis of the reality we know today? i.e. why people suffer, why the sky is blue, and whatnot. Well this one is more of an etiology which sort of makes the bible its basis. An alternate explanation if you will.

So anyway I think it's interesting because it puts the bible in the shoes of the scientific explanations as opposed to being the alternate explanation, and thus we have a sort of simulation or demonstration if you will of the fabrication of a religion (pinstrike's theory) based on another religion (Christianity). (which unfortunately means that you probably wouldn't be able to make a cult of it unless you were able to get a splinter group of psycho Christians to join you.)

I'll reserve my analysis of this simulation until after we're done having our fun though. I don't want my analysis to cause a different approach or anything and thus disrupt the natural course of the discussion.

Pinstrike, I'll get on this after I do my research paper. Hopefully that will be before Tuesday.

[Psyquis52]

The good news is that there's always plenty of psycho Christians to go around!

So, help yourselves!
Take a few!
Get rid of them!

Christianity has enough bad publicity without idiots like that.

[The Big Daddy C-Master]

Apr 23, 2008 9:47:50 GMT -5 Dja Majista said:

Yeah. That's about right. But also, how quickly someone can fabricate a non-falsifiable story to explain the origin of mankind and whatnot. However, I don't think that concept applies to much of the bible, but that's a different topic altogether.

Why is that?