Hulk vs. Superman

[The Big Daddy C-Master]

Because?

[violent2dope]

How? With his speed, he can fly behind Hulk and have him in outer space before Huc can move?

[The Big Daddy C-Master]

Hulk admiration is nice, but only to a certain extent.

[imperium]

because its the hulk, man i leave for 2 mimutes, comae back and people start talking crazy

[The Big Daddy C-Master]

I don't hate the Hulk, I think Banner is awesome, but he has his limits.

[JACK-2]

Feb 16, 2007 16:52:58 GMT -5 The Big Daddy C-Master said:

Well this is a classic discussion. We know Supes can BFR him, but Hulk has limitless potential. But Superman can absorb more sunlight in desperate times... I think Supes truly going out can beat Hulk, but Hulk has the physical advantage in the end.

Well, Hulks strength is dependent on his temperament and regardless of how limitless his power supply is he can never access it. People forget that Hulk's body produces fatigue toxins and though rage would make him stronger, it would also max him out at the same time. Supes doesn't have that problem, as long as he has sunlight he has power. So, supes unfortunately wins.

Mar 5, 2007 1:15:07 GMT -5 The Big Daddy C-Master said:

DC has ridiculous ones like Supes and GL, who are like walking plot devices.

And Marvel has Reed.

Apr 4, 2007 16:07:50 GMT -5 The Big Daddy C-Master said:

imperium said:

Yep DBZ was the shit back in the days were'nt they, you think other anime can replicate that.

I'd hope not, I'm older and I want something different now...

True, but I still enjoy watching DBZ. I'm a Big One Piece fan though, well at least the manga/comics. Cannot stand the anime.

[The Big Daddy C-Master]

Reed is a plot device, and even guys like Wolverine to a degree. Reed is meant to be one though, when something is done through an invention that saves the situation it's more of a plot device than things like Dr. Strange's Magic that depends on the situation when it shouldn't at all.

In a vs Match as long as you specify Reed's equipment, and he doesn't get prep time it's fine. But guys like Strange and GL and Supes are so hard to argue (and even Bats) because their power level fluctuates too much.

[JACK-2]

Mar 5, 2007 1:15:07 GMT -5 The Big Daddy C-Master said:

Marvel heroes would have a harder time against DC until you start using Cosmics and Gladiator. Remember heroes aren't characters like Galactus and the like, the most powerful ones are chars like Surfer and the Sentry.

Don't forget the Mighty Thor and Quasar. . .I don't count Sentry because he's a Gary Stu. Which is a same because the concept of his character is cool, but the execution is bad.

[The Big Daddy C-Master]

Dec 8, 2008 18:27:20 GMT -5 JACK-2 said:

Mar 5, 2007 1:15:07 GMT -5 The Big Daddy C-Master said:

Marvel heroes would have a harder time against DC until you start using Cosmics and Gladiator. Remember heroes aren't characters like Galactus and the like, the most powerful ones are chars like Surfer and the Sentry.

Don't forget the Mighty Thor and Quasar. . .I don't count Sentry because he's a Gary Stu. Which is a same because the concept of his character is cool, but the execution is bad.

Nobody seems to like Sentry, lol.

[JACK-2]

It can't be helped, the guy is a Gary stu. To make a hero that's: Stronger than all other heroes, Can calm the Hulk, As smart as reed, Inspired other heroes and can Stalemate Galactus. Not to mention he's turned spidey into a fanboy. . . Also, why does marvel need a superman clone when they already have great heroes? The concept of a hero/villain is cool, but the execution is horrid.

[The Big Daddy C-Master]

Dec 12, 2008 16:41:52 GMT -5 JACK-2 said:

It can't be helped, the guy is a Gary stu. To make a hero that's: Stronger than all other heroes, Can calm the Hulk, As smart as reed, Inspired other heroes and can Stalemate Galactus. Not to mention he's turned spidey into a fanboy. . . Also, why does marvel need a superman clone when they already have great heroes? The concept of a hero/villain is cool, but the execution is horrid.

They just don't do enough with him, I mean Superman is worse, but he is more established.

[JACK-2]

Not when Bendis is writing and I don't mind them doing things with him. . .just tone him down. He's potentially a good character besides coming of as a blatant superman rip off and a Gary Stu if epic proportions [Not as bad as pre-retconned beyonder].

[The Big Daddy C-Master]

Dec 13, 2008 2:05:13 GMT -5 JACK-2 said:

Not when Bendis is writing and I don't mind them doing things with him. . .just tone him down. He's potentially a good character besides coming of as a blatant superman rip off and a Gary Stu if epic proportions [Not as bad as pre-retconned beyonder].

Nothing is as bad as Pre-Retcon Beyonder.

[JACK-2]

What was marvel smoking when they made him?

[The Big Daddy C-Master]

Dec 13, 2008 19:30:21 GMT -5 JACK-2 said:

What was marvel smoking when they made him?

He looks so... tacky too.

[JACK-2]

LOL

[The Big Daddy C-Master]

Why didn't you like him? Was he too dull for you?

[JACK-2]

He was just to powerful to no limits and would straight up break the story. . .Typical Gary Stu crap like making everyone in marvel bow to him or showing up all the cosmics. It reached a point where I wondered what his purpose was besides being more powerful than anyone?

[The Big Daddy C-Master]

Dec 14, 2008 19:34:20 GMT -5 JACK-2 said:

He was just to powerful to no limits and would straight up break the story. . .Typical Gary Stu crap like making everyone in marvel bow to him or showing up all the cosmics. It reached a point where I wondered what his purpose was besides being more powerful than anyone?

Well he is the Beyonder.
I think he's fine if he isn't the main part of some story, otherwise, they are going to have to work in some good character, which is hard to do. The point I was making in the other thread.

[JACK-2]

I don't mind him being strong it's just how he makes everyone act out of character and If you compare him to say how Thanos with the same type of power you won't see that in his showings.

[JACK-2]

May 27, 2008 10:23:20 GMT -5 The Big Daddy C-Master said:

Reed is a plot device, and even guys like Wolverine to a degree. Reed is meant to be one though, when something is done through an invention that saves the situation it's more of a plot device than things like Dr. Strange's Magic that depends on the situation when it shouldn't at all.

In a vs Match as long as you specify Reed's equipment, and he doesn't get prep time it's fine. But guys like Strange and GL and Supes are so hard to argue (and even Bats) because their power level fluctuates too much.

I wasn't fully aware of this distinction or it just plain escaped me. Reed can only be used as a device under certain set circumstances, like when given prep-time to conjure inventions which 99& of the time will emerge as a solution to save the day. But, That's different then someone like strange who has access to his full power 24/7, powers which aren't restricted in any way. But in certain showings cannot seem to access them, when they should be able to anytime. This apply's to Green Lantern, Dr. Strange, Superman, Silver Surfer, and Thor [Though, he gets his powers augmented quite often]. Because for the most part these heroes are overly versatile and I guess it can be hard to write. I see what you mean about it being hard to write powerful heroes.

[The Big Daddy C-Master]

Well that's my point, Reed or even Spiderman has to go and regroup and come up with something, that is a plot device, but not a walking one like Batman who always has something on him. Wolverine is guilty of it because his healing adjusts with the situation. GL's, Magic Users, they all have what is needed (or they just don't have it), at the time, for the sake of the story.

[JACK-2]

I'm curious, how is wolverines healing factor on par with Thor's Hammer or Batman utility Belt or Green Lanterns power ring or Dr. Stranges spells and so on?

[The Big Daddy C-Master]

I don't think it's *that* bad. But it is a plot device, because Wolverine's healing varies so much in so many of his showings. When he wants to fight Hulk he does, when he wants to get ko'ed by DD, he does. It's really just up to the situation more often than not. There is no set amount and it varies from writer to writer.

[JACK-2]

I see what you mean, it kinda helps him rack up great showings by hanging with people who should kill him. I'm not even gonna get into spiritual healing factor, since you know how bad that is.

[The Big Daddy C-Master]

Dec 18, 2008 4:54:27 GMT -5 JACK-2 said:

I see what you mean, it kinda helps him rack up great showings by hanging with people who should kill him. I'm not even gonna get into spiritual healing factor, since you know how bad that is.

Agreed. But yeah, it really just depends on the plot, good showing or bad.

[JACK-2]

Nowadays I expect bad.

[JACK-2]

Dec 18, 2008 2:51:59 GMT -5 The Big Daddy C-Master said:

I don't think it's *that* bad. But it is a plot device, because Wolverine's healing varies so much in so many of his showings. When he wants to fight Hulk he does, when he wants to get ko'ed by DD, he does. It's really just up to the situation more often than not. There is no set amount and it varies from writer to writer.

It kinda reminds me of Spider-mans sense being used as a device, I remember some fanboys claimed he could never be hit ever because if the ability to pre-perceive dangers. Fair enough, but what are it's limitations. Unless we assume it has no limit which is a No limits fallacy. Marvel has never set a limit to what kind of dangers it can react to [I've seen pete imply that his Spidey sense could go off if other people are in danger] or how far ahead does it react to danger? I mean does it go off as soon as someone decides to to attack spidey or when they are in the process of attacking him, what about the range it can detect danger? It's like it activates when ever the story needs it, like how Wolverines healing factor varies. Now more than ever I see your point. powerful abilities will always be devices if they have no clear limitations. Don't even get me started on Marvel plot metals like: Admantium, Vibranium or Caps shield which is the worst.

[The Big Daddy C-Master]

Dec 18, 2008 20:57:51 GMT -5 JACK-2 said:

Dec 18, 2008 2:51:59 GMT -5 The Big Daddy C-Master said:

I don't think it's *that* bad. But it is a plot device, because Wolverine's healing varies so much in so many of his showings. When he wants to fight Hulk he does, when he wants to get ko'ed by DD, he does. It's really just up to the situation more often than not. There is no set amount and it varies from writer to writer.

It kinda reminds me of Spider-mans sense being used as a device, I remember some fanboys claimed he could never be hit ever because if the ability to pre-perceive dangers. Fair enough, but what are it's limitations. Unless we assume it has no limit which is a No limits fallacy. Marvel has never set a limit to what kind of dangers it can react to [I've seen pete imply that his Spidey sense could go off if other people are in danger] or how far ahead does it react to danger? I mean does it go off as soon as someone decides to to attack spidey or when they are in the process of attacking him, what about the range it can detect danger? It's like it activates when ever the story needs it, like how Wolverines healing factor varies. Now more than ever I see your point. powerful abilities will always be devices if they have no clear limitations. Don't even get me started on Marvel plot metals like: Admantium, Vibranium or Caps shield which is the worst.

Yea it is a plot device. The problem with the Spider sense is that it is often underwritten. You might see it once every comic or so (if that), and it doesn't do much except in a life or death situation. His Spidersense should go off all of the time, but that is too much to put into a comic. It should tell the direction of the attack, and the more intense the buzzing the more dangerous it is. It should be right before as well. Spiderman Spidersense upgraded after he died and came back. But yea, it isn't utilized much, it's kind of an "extra" thing. I don't think it makes him unhittable (except for practically normal guys), but it should give him a huge advantage.

Adamantium and Vibranium are retconned too much.

[JACK-2]

It is underwritten, but it has the potential to over written.