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Post by JACK-2 on Nov 23, 2008 21:50:44 GMT -5
I believe feat wars are pointless and irritating. I use a combination of anything canon along with their stats and showings. Let's say a characters stats have been the same for years and then the character jumps up with no explanation suddenly. Fanboys will still use the feats, I notice most hate the stats because they are far more inconsistent. I use a combination of: Canon showings past & present, power feats, Personality [Which is ignored], Statements, How the character is written and speculation of abilities. I think most people dismiss stats because it requires some sort mental effort that feat wars do not. So, most Fanboys and bias people will use Feat wars just to say their character wins. You think Urien is more tactical than Gill? I think they are tactical in different ways suited to their personalities. Gill views the role of emperor as a savior. He wants to save the world and lead it's people to salvation. But, he believes that it's only possible under his rule. While Urien views the role of emperor as a conqueror. He wants to dominate the world and have everyone completely submitt to his will. So, Urien seems to have a better understanding of Technology type Science. and is better IMO at overseeing things suited to his goal like Military operations and New technology R&D. While Gill seems more knowledgeable on Theological, Occult and Philosophical type science's because it is suited for his goal. |
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Post by The Big Daddy C-Master on Nov 24, 2008 0:33:13 GMT -5
I believe feat wars are pointless and irritating. I use a combination of anything canon along with their stats and showings. Let's say a characters stats have been the same for years and then the character jumps up with no explanation suddenly. Fanboys will still use the feats, I notice most hate the stats because they are far more inconsistent. I use a combination of: Canon showings past & present, power feats, Personality [Which is ignored], Statements, How the character is written and speculation of abilities. I think most people dismiss stats because it requires some sort mental effort that feat wars do not. So, most Fanboys and bias people will use Feat wars just to say their character wins. You think Urien is more tactical than Gill? I think they are tactical in different ways suited to their personalities. Gill views the role of emperor as a savior. He wants to save the world and lead it's people to salvation. But, he believes that it's only possible under his rule. While Urien views the role of emperor as a conqueror. He wants to dominate the world and have everyone completely submitt to his will. So, Urien seems to have a better understanding of Technology type Science. and is better IMO at overseeing things suited to his goal like Military operations and New technology R&D. While Gill seems more knowledgeable on Theological, Occult and Philosophical type science's because it is suited for his goal. I meant "consistent" lol, feats are far more inconsistent, particularly with characters like Wolverine. I'd rather just get a general rundown of the characters and have them go at it sometimes, taking writer bias out of it, because it's generally going to be a draw or another plot device. I guess what you're saying makes sense, but then again I don't think you'd need the military when you can split seas. |
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Post by JACK-2 on Nov 24, 2008 1:40:39 GMT -5
Yeah, I remember arguing with people claiming that Spider-mans Stats from his Bio was wrong. Because I tried to argue that spidey can only dodge a bullet if it's fired from a certain distance [like the bio stated] and in another debate I said that he uses his Spider senses precog/reflexes to evade versus pure speed [based on the old description of how his powers work]. But, people wouldn't budge and insisted to use feats where he caught bullets while being sick. One of the debates was on the Chun-li vs Spider man thread way back when I first came on KMC. Don't even get me started when I went to CBR to argue Ryu vs Spider-man and people were claiming that Spider-man could K.O. Ryu with finger flicks.
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Post by The Big Daddy C-Master on Nov 24, 2008 15:47:52 GMT -5
Those debates are always tricky. Mainly because SF have so many incarnations, so I always hate arguing them against guys like Capt, Wolverine, and Spiderman. Taking the best out of anything they've ever done and Ryu would cream those three, but a lot of showings would have the Marvel Characters on top, especially Spiderman. Spiderman can only dodge bullets from a decent distance, as he isn't faster than them. Capt and Wolverine can't really, they technically should just dodge the gunman, but bullets are jobbers.
Spiderman has ko'ed humans with flicks, and the SF characters ARE human, just hella more tough. SF characters get underrated, but then again Spiderman does too. Wolverine doesn't of course.
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Post by JACK-2 on Nov 24, 2008 16:41:17 GMT -5
I argued that on CBR where they use the characters absolute best showings only which is silly. I understand spidey can finger flick people unconscious, but they make it seem like he can do it to just about any peak human which was silly. Those match up's are tricky, but it's even harder to debate them when people are bias. Spidey catching bullets when his sick as feats is just as bad as people who think he's faster than lasers. This may be off-topic, but I think Ryu might be a better fighter than Cap in certain high showings. But, Cap is a great fighter though, even if we do not count his jobber fights. Wolverine would lose, I don't care what anyone says. . .He's the weakest out of the three. . .Capcom has a good version of him, though. Spidey is kinda hard, because people forget he uses more than brawn to win. He wins by outsmarting his opponents and doesn't straight up brawl too much from what I remember. I think he can beat many versions of Ryu and even give current Ryu some loses if not flat out beat him. It honestly depends and your right about the different incarnations of Street Fighter cast.
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Post by warmunger on Nov 29, 2008 17:16:08 GMT -5
Yeah, but what I stated is still valid, though. Unless the character is literally unbeatable. There are ways to beat characters with ridiculous feats, sometimes your character could even trick them through negotiations. Versus can be more than just bouts, it's a chance to see what could happen if two characters from complete different universe interact. I'm saying there's more things happening then fighting, but forums like KMC do not even cover that. Also, feats can be inconsistent as hell, they aren't infalliable. They have to be feasible to actually work in debates. Most people forget all this which is why you have Feat wars which lead nowhere. I get it but the characters we've been going over so far feats R consistent as well and They R feasible and actually work in debates. It's not like ryu or gouki R superman. They have good feats but not so many that they become inconsistent or pure contridictory. It wood B funny 2 C if Iori can trick ryu N2 losing,lol. I don't think Iori wood stoop that low or stoop low at all. I agree that it makes the individual have an advantage in certain regards, but my beef is people who claim that one feat regardless of what it is wins entire matches. . .That's Fanboyish. As for Ryu dodging bullets, that's great but what I said still applies. Because we cannot assume that Ryu can dodge all bullets no matter what the situation is. What if dudes have Ak's with banana clips? or They have excellent marksmanship? or Have a special gun? Sure he can dodge bullet, but there maybe instances where he cannot. . .Which is why I like to analyze stuff from angles to get a broader view of what's going on. . .KMC and bigger forums forget that which is why their debates are so monotonous Well O'course, I don't just use feats 4 every fight just the ones where I think it will help. Iori isn't a marksmen nor does he have an AK-47, so Ryu should not be worried, right? The guy is fast enough 2 dodge regular bullets from a regular man wit a regular gun, that's still pretty fast. How fast is Iori? Do we really no? I agree for the most part, but Terry isn't a regular human, though. What I'm saying is what you said before. Ryu's feats make him more powerful in certain regards not overall. Dudes at big forums treat feats like they are the only factor that resolves fights, which is my beef. Feats are very important, but the reasoning that allows us to use them in fights are just as important. . .I wish people remembered that. Other than Terry's special attacks, what makes him super? Terry is 1 of my Favs but I really don't c him doing anything amazing other than his moves. He hasn't really accomplished anything that a hard working human can't. |
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Post by warmunger on Nov 29, 2008 17:26:34 GMT -5
quote]I believe feat wars are pointless and irritating. I use a combination of anything canon along with their stats and showings. Let's say a characters stats have been the same for years and then the character jumps up with no explanation suddenly. Fanboys will still use the feats, I notice most hate the stats because they are far more inconsistent. Generally featwars are also useless because they don't take in mind the forum rules and environment and unless they are straight up power displays, feats, such as one character ko'ing another when they are fighting someone else, are not necessary. |
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Post by JACK-2 on Nov 29, 2008 22:44:28 GMT -5
I get it but the characters we've been going over so far feats R consistent as well and They R feasible and actually work in debates. It's not like ryu or gouki R superman. They have good feats but not so many that they become inconsistent or pure contridictory. -Sigh- Again, it's not just about consistent of feats. It's about how other crap factor in to fights. . .Stuff other than feats. It wood B funny 2 C if Iori can trick ryu N2 losing,lol. I don't think Iori wood stoop that low or stoop low at all. Well O'course, I don't just use feats 4 every fight just the ones where I think it will help. Well, of course because it would be out of character. That's what i was getting at, there are other factors in debates. Not asking for people to stop using feats, just start using other things combined with feats. Iori isn't a marksmen nor does he have an AK-47, so Ryu should not be worried, right? The guy is fast enough 2 dodge regular bullets from a regular man wit a regular gun, that's still pretty fast. How fast is Iori? Do we really no? That wasn't my point, I was referring to how much we can gauge said feat. It isn't just about dodging bullets unless your saying that Ryu is faster than Iori on all levels cause he dodged bullets? Other than Terry's special attacks, what makes him super? Terry is 1 of my Favs but I really don't c him doing anything amazing other than his moves. He hasn't really accomplished anything that a hard working human can't. Hard working human can shoot fireballs. . .C'mon. |
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Post by warmunger on Dec 1, 2008 18:58:20 GMT -5
-Sigh- Again, it's not just about consistent of feats. It's about how other crap factor in to fights. . .Stuff other than feats. ..........................And I'm saying that I NO THAT! But I'm also saying that they R just as important as any other factor in battle Not asking for people to stop using feats, just start using other things combined with feats. Well O'course....that's how feats should be used. That wasn't my point, I was referring to how much we can gauge said feat. It isn't just about dodging bullets unless your saying that Ryu is faster than Iori on all levels cause he dodged bullets? Well...that is what I'm saying 2 a degree. Ryu has shown incredible speed by letting it B known that he can dodge bullets, which is what i think Capcom wanted, 2 show that thier character is B-yond human in speed which is Y Chun Li was amazed by it. We can use that 1 feat to gauge Ryu's speed...in many ways. What do we have 4 Iori win comparing to Ryu? Anything? Hard working human can shoot fireballs. . .C'mon. I did say "Other than his special attacks". How strong R these "fire balls" tho? Do we no? |
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Post by JACK-2 on Dec 3, 2008 0:37:50 GMT -5
Yeah, but you also said:"He hasn't really accomplished anything that a hard working human can't." Whether his fireballs are strong are not doesn't change the fact that it's beyond what a regular human can do. Because regular Humans cannot shoot fireballs period, especially not in the league of Terry.
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Post by warmunger on Dec 5, 2008 15:56:20 GMT -5
Yeah, but you also said: "He hasn't really accomplished anything that a hard working human can't." Whether his fireballs are strong are not doesn't change the fact that it's beyond what a regular human can do. Because regular Humans cannot shoot fireballs period, especially not in the league of Terry. But is Terry faster then the fastest man, stronger, more durable? That's my real point. |
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Post by JACK-2 on Dec 5, 2008 19:13:44 GMT -5
But is Terry faster then the fastest man, stronger, more durable? That's my real point. I don't think he has to be physically faster or stronger to be more powerful. |
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Post by The Big Daddy C-Master on Dec 7, 2008 8:58:33 GMT -5
I say it time and time again, feats aren't bad, but they are just frustrating. For instance someone like Captain America beating someone like Spiderman wouldn't happen in a versus forum where everyone is fighting their best. Spiderman is class 15 and was 25, and he's lifted well beyond that. Cap is peak, and is generally 800 maybe over a 1000 at most. Spiderman is much faster, stronger, and agile, he also has Spidersense, wall crawling, and webbing. But people overrate "Fighting skills" when it wouldn't make that much of a difference in that physical gap. Of course SF characters use their fighting skill for powers, like shooting fireballs.
Fanboys use feats to their advantage always. Argue with a wolverine fanboy about wolverine's speed and he'll say wolverine is as fast or faster than Spiderman, which we all know is bs. But they'll argue that they have the same feats. All of that is relative, Spiderman does his feats more often with more ease. He's known for that. They'll say wolverine is a 2 tonner, because of a few feats, but in that case Spiderman has lifted over 70 tons, but that doesn't count for some reason. This is why I hate featwars. They are employed by fanboys in hopes of a circular argument.
Natural speed and strength doesn't equal more power in a strike, that's application of force, a technique. Particularly where chi is involved.
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Post by JACK-2 on Dec 7, 2008 14:43:44 GMT -5
Good input, I think most Cap supporters forget that that Fighting skills aren't limited to H2H. Spidey's fighting skills incorporate his spider sense, webbing, agility, and gadgetry. Cap of course is pretty resourceful and he also works well with prep. But, Spidey with prep is even more so and has done some pretty inventive things. Going all out he can put fourth strength on the level of some bricks. [Depending the version of course]. Of course there are times where Spidey's speed is exaggerated by fanboys who use feats like him catching bullets while sick and claim his faster than speed demon when all he did was web him when his back was turned running away [Which should not even be possible because Speed demon is way faster than a web line]. His speed is a result of Spidey sense precog combined with agility, but by the looks of how fanboys exaggerate you would think he is the flash. You seem to go by character stats and explanations on how said heroes powers work versus only using feats. I used to be the same way, but when I came to KMC fanboys insisted on using feats only calling handbooks outdated. The irony is that handbooks are still used and many information is pretty much unchanged. Seems alot of people hate on Hand books or data books even in manga as well. But, when you use them things actually make more sense. Natural speed and strength doesn't equal more power in a strike, that's application of force, a technique. Particularly where chi is involved. Actually, force and power are different. Application of Force is the expenditure of energy in a certain duration vs power which is a spontaneous use of energy. A camp fire for instance has more energy than a stick of dynamite, but it burns the energy much slower versus dynamite which use it's energy in single fleeting moment. Your right, Natural speed and Strength does not equal power in a strike, it's how you use it. In Chinese Kung Fu [I'm using what I'm most familiar with] the use of explosive power is called Fa Jing and it uses the physics principle. You let your energy out spontaneously and causes greater damage. |
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Post by The Big Daddy C-Master on Dec 7, 2008 15:18:11 GMT -5
Good input, I think most Cap supporters forget that that Fighting skills aren't limited to H2H. Spidey's fighting skills incorporate his spider sense, webbing, agility, and gadgetry. Cap of course is pretty resourceful and he also works well with prep. But, Spidey with prep is even more so and has done some pretty inventive things. Going all out he can put fourth strength on the level of some bricks. [Depending the version of course]. Of course there are times where Spidey's speed is exaggerated by fanboys who use feats like him catching bullets while sick and claim his faster than speed demon when all he did was web him when his back was turned running away [Which should not even be possible because Speed demon is way faster than a web line]. His speed is a result of Spidey sense precog combined with agility, but by the looks of how fanboys exaggerate you would think he is the flash. You seem to go by character stats and explanations on how said heroes powers work versus only using feats. I used to be the same way, but when I came to KMC fanboys insisted on using feats only calling handbooks outdated. The irony is that handbooks are still used and many information is pretty much unchanged. Seems alot of people hate on Hand books or data books even in manga as well. But, when you use them things actually make more sense. Natural speed and strength doesn't equal more power in a strike, that's application of force, a technique. Particularly where chi is involved. Actually, force and power are different. Application of Force is the expenditure of energy in a certain duration vs power which is a spontaneous use of energy. A camp fire for instance has more energy than a stick of dynamite, but it burns the energy much slower versus dynamite which use it's energy in single fleeting moment. Your right, Natural speed and Strength does not equal power in a strike, it's how you use it. In Chinese Kung Fu [I'm using what I'm most familiar with] the use of explosive power is called Fa Jing and it uses the physics principle. You let your energy out spontaneously and causes greater damage. Yea I don't mind feats when it's something like a certain ability that they displayed, but fighting other famous characters makes my ire. Flash is probably the worst on vs forums in some ways, but he's my fave DC character so I don't mind him getting some cred. I don't debate like they do on him though. Yea power is energy, but from a physical perspective I'm learning how to channel the "force" in motion. Chi is energy, movement is energy, kinetic and heat, by using my energy correctly I can do more damage, instead of using sheer strength alone, which is useful but not the meat and bone of power in the long run. |
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Post by JACK-2 on Dec 7, 2008 16:57:07 GMT -5
Well, Ki is conceptual than anything and has a coup;e of meanings. One is Strengths or powers which corresponds to the type of power developed by MA back then [Mostly Tendon strength]. Then it's air or vapor which is considered as Vital energy that is necessary to live [Obviously]. Another translation is that Qi is the radiation of But, in fictional MA it's the energy of the human body being channeled as a weapon or energy manipulation which can do tons of crazy things with.
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Post by The Big Daddy C-Master on Dec 8, 2008 4:11:55 GMT -5
Well, Ki is conceptual than anything and has a coup;e of meanings. One is Strengths or powers which corresponds to the type of power developed by MA back then [Mostly Tendon strength]. Then it's air or vapor which is considered as Vital energy that is necessary to live [Obviously]. Another translation is that Qi is the radiation of But, in fictional MA it's the energy of the human body being channeled as a weapon or energy manipulation which can do tons of crazy things with. It could be looked at that in many things, but we find it's more scientific than not, dealing with heat and cold. |
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Post by JACK-2 on Dec 8, 2008 4:49:41 GMT -5
I agree.
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Post by The Big Daddy C-Master on Dec 18, 2008 2:47:55 GMT -5
How much MA have you studied?
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Post by JACK-2 on Dec 18, 2008 6:08:01 GMT -5
Not too much, but I study alot of Martial history. I'm really into Chine martial arts, but the real good sifu's for the most part keep their skills on the downlow.
The best Sifu's I've seen are Novell G. Bell A.K.A. Black Taoist:
Paul Vunak who was a friend of Bruce Lee:
Vee Arnis Jujistu: Shihan David James:
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Post by The Big Daddy C-Master on Dec 18, 2008 6:42:19 GMT -5
Not too much, but I study alot of Martial history. I'm really into Chine martial arts, but the real good sifu's for the most part keep their skills on the downlow. The best Sifu's I've seen are Novell G. Bell A.K.A. Black Taoist: Paul Vunak who was a friend of Bruce Lee: Vee Arnis Jujistu: Shihan David James: It's really good to enlighten yourself in many things, I do my training too. Tao Hsieh Wu Shu, the way of unified martial arts. It's a new style composed of 9 styles in one. It's a growing art and is just been recognized worldwide not too long ago. |
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Post by JACK-2 on Dec 18, 2008 17:22:42 GMT -5
I'm into Southern Shaolin Gung Fu , specifically the 5 families of the South: Hung Ga [Hung Family, My fave], Lau Ga [Lau Family], Choi Ga [Choi Family], Li Ga [Li Family], and Mok Ga [ Mok Family]. Then come it's variations: Choi Li Fut [Combination of Choi Ga, Li Ga and Fut Ga/Buddha's palm] and of course Jow Ga [ Combination of Hung Ga and Choi Ga]. But, something deep inside me keeps telling me to learn specifically Omei martial arts. . .I dunno why.
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Post by The Big Daddy C-Master on Dec 19, 2008 2:47:28 GMT -5
I'm into Southern Shaolin Gung Fu , specifically the 5 families of the South: Hung Ga [Hung Family, My fave], Lau Ga [Lau Family], Choi Ga [Choi Family], Li Ga [Li Family], and Mok Ga [ Mok Family]. Then come it's variations: Choi Li Fut [Combination of Choi Ga, Li Ga and Fut Ga/Buddha's palm] and of course Jow Ga [ Combination of Hung Ga and Choi Ga]. But, something deep inside me keeps telling me to learn specifically Omei martial arts. . .I dunno why. Always go with your gut. But generally it's always good to mix it up, but you don't have to do it right away. Build a foundation first. |
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Post by JACK-2 on Dec 19, 2008 3:42:46 GMT -5
Good point, thanks for the advice.
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Post by The Big Daddy C-Master on Dec 19, 2008 8:28:57 GMT -5
Good point, thanks for the advice. Go for it man! |
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Post by warmunger on Feb 10, 2009 17:14:43 GMT -5
Yeah, but you also said: "He hasn't really accomplished anything that a hard working human can't." Whether his fireballs are strong are not doesn't change the fact that it's beyond what a regular human can do. Because regular Humans cannot shoot fireballs period, especially not in the league of Terry. How does him simply B-ing able 2 shoot fireballs help him N a fight against a character that can do the same thing. We have 2 look at the strength of each charatcer's fire balls. That's the piont I'm trying 2 make. |
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Post by warmunger on Feb 10, 2009 17:38:54 GMT -5
I say it time and time again, feats aren't bad, but they are just frustrating. For instance someone like Captain America beating someone like Spiderman wouldn't happen in a versus forum where everyone is fighting their best. Spiderman is class 15 and was 25, and he's lifted well beyond that. Cap is peak, and is generally 800 maybe over a 1000 at most. Spiderman is much faster, stronger, and agile, he also has Spidersense, wall crawling, and webbing. But people overrate "Fighting skills" when it wouldn't make that much of a difference in that physical gap. Of course SF characters use their fighting skill for powers, like shooting fireballs. Fanboys use feats to their advantage always. Argue with a wolverine fanboy about wolverine's speed and he'll say wolverine is as fast or faster than Spiderman, which we all know is bs. But they'll argue that they have the same feats. All of that is relative, Spiderman does his feats more often with more ease. He's known for that. They'll say wolverine is a 2 tonner, because of a few feats, but in that case Spiderman has lifted over 70 tons, but that doesn't count for some reason. This is why I hate featwars. They are employed by fanboys in hopes of a circular argument. Natural speed and strength doesn't equal more power in a strike, that's application of force, a technique. Particularly where chi is involved. I C U'R point and I agree. But that isn't the case here. We'R essentially putting a character with no feats or a minimal display of skills against a guy wit many feats and many showings of incredible ability. U guys keep using the comic book guys but let me show U exactly what I mean with an example related more 2 the subject.... Sean VS Gouki. I say "C'mon, Gouki wins, the man kicked a boat N half and did so N seconds starting from the sea floor 2 well above sea level. Sean has done nothing that makes me B-leave that he can avoid or survive the attack." U say, "That's a feat, it doesn't matter. Feats don't matter." So I'm left thinking 2 myself, do these people actually think that Gouki destroying a battle ship with a kick is not enuff reason 2 give Gouki the win over Sean? That's crazy. Now I no win feats hold less weigth, 4 instance... Freeza can destroy Vegetto cuz he blew up a planet and vegetto never has. It's true Freeza has better feats but there R reasons Y we no they don't matter in a fight against Vegetto. But there is none of the here. |
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Post by JACK-2 on Feb 10, 2009 18:21:18 GMT -5
Well, you gotta remember it's alot easier to compare guys within the same universe as opposed to characters from two completely different universes. Because you have things like power-scaling and a heirarchy which you can use as a refrence point. However with cross universe verses its a whole other ball game.
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Post by JACK-2 on Feb 10, 2009 18:32:56 GMT -5
How does him simply B-ing able 2 shoot fireballs help him N a fight against a character that can do the same thing. We have 2 look at the strength of each charatcer's fire balls. That's the piont I'm trying 2 make. Remo, I think your missing my point here. You compared Terry to a regular human in this post: We all kn ow that a regular human cannot shoot fireballs. So, you can't compare Terry to a regular human, that was my point. . .Not wether his fireballs are stronger than Ryus. |
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Post by warmunger on Feb 11, 2009 18:51:16 GMT -5
How does him simply B-ing able 2 shoot fireballs help him N a fight against a character that can do the same thing. We have 2 look at the strength of each charatcer's fire balls. That's the piont I'm trying 2 make. Remo, I think your missing my point here. You compared Terry to a regular human in this post: We all kn ow that a regular human cannot shoot fireballs. So, you can't compare Terry to a regular human, that was my point. . .Not wether his fireballs are stronger than Ryus. (sigh) Just cuz Terry can shoot fireballs doesn't mean he can beat any human on earth. Cuz Terry's fireball has no feats, we can assume a skilled human can survive it and or avoid, then proced to destroy Terry. Y, B-cuz Terry has no proof that he is physically or mentaly beyond human. U make it seem as if Terry Bogard cood beat Bruce lee just cuz he can do a Power Wave. |
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