|
|
Post by JACK-2 on Dec 25, 2014 17:22:13 GMT -5
Gonna disagree with you there, mate. Sonic Generations is perhaps the best Sonic game since Sonic 3 and Knuckles IMO (and the opinions of many). What did you think of Lost World? I played the 3Ds version, but the Platforming was solid and it was an overall great game. |
|
|
|
Post by JACK-2 on Dec 25, 2014 17:23:27 GMT -5
Many of the Sonic games in between were "meh" at best. It was always a meh platformer franchise tbh. I used to be a big fan, but looking back the platforming wasn't really good. |
|
The Big Daddy C-Master
Big Daddy 
Living life to the fullest, and it feels great.
I'm still here... for now...
Posts: 26,387
|
Post by The Big Daddy C-Master on Dec 25, 2014 17:25:19 GMT -5
Many of the Sonic games in between were "meh" at best. It was always a meh platformer franchise tbh. I used to be a big fan, but looking back the platforming wasn't really good. Well it depends on the game. Sonic 1 was more basic. Sonic CD was faster, Sonic 2 was speed based, and Sonic 3 and Knuckles were more exploration based. Mario was a slower game but it had some different elements than Sonic did. I think Sonic did many things better, but I think Mario did some things very well too. |
|
|
|
Post by JACK-2 on Dec 25, 2014 17:28:03 GMT -5
I'd say early sonic was not bad, but Mario was a superior platformer tbh. It also improved over time while Sonic got worst.
|
|
The Big Daddy C-Master
Big Daddy
Living life to the fullest, and it feels great.
I'm still here... for now...
Posts: 26,387
|
Post by The Big Daddy C-Master on Dec 25, 2014 17:32:09 GMT -5
I'd say early sonic was not bad, but Mario was a superior platformer tbh. It also improved over time while Sonic got worst. I'm not sure Mario is all that hot anymore either. It's more of the same IMO. Early Sonic was excellent and helped redefined the genre, it introduced a lot of things other platforms hadn't at that time. Plus you had collectibles and could power up. Lots of floors above floors and water mechanics with oxygen with a different boss fight on every level. The casino stage, the speed. It had a lot going for it. Mario was more iconic. The first two games were almost identical (though the second was harder), they had a dolled up port for the US. Mario 3 and 4 were the best IMO (4 being world). Yoshi, plus being able to travel back and forth made that game amazing too. Sonic and Knuckles allowed you to use different characters and team up as well, and it had an AMAZING soundtrack too. Both were awesome. I'm going to play them now. |
|
|
|
Post by gurpwnder on Dec 25, 2014 17:37:00 GMT -5
Don't get me wrong, Nintendo games are absolutely well-crafted games with tonnes of polish. It's just that franchises like Mario, Zelda, Metroid, etc have the POTENTIAL to make some good games, but they're too afraid to give us anything remotely different. I'm not asking for a Mario FPS or a Zelda MMORPG, but every Mario game is littered with the same music we've been hearing for years, an outdated life (1-up) system that has no purpose and had no purpose past the arcade days that they refuse to do away with, the same themes, repetitive minibosses, etc. What about a Mario game that's not set in the Mushroom Kingdom? What about a city themed world? Or a technological themed world? As an aside, I'm currently in SM3DW starting World 4. I've already seen so much retro-pandering that it's painful. The stamps and green stars couldn't be more obviously hidden, which is a shame since Super Mario World managed to incentivize exploration so much better with secret levels and Dragon Coins that could be hidden up in the clouds at any point to any pipe. Same thing with SF5. Ryu and Chun-Li are mainstays, I respect that, but why is the first reveal Charlie? Why do we have a dedicated revenge bar again? There's not enough being done here to make me think that this game is a decent step away from SF4. I'm not saying that it has to go as far as SF2 -> SF3, but some fresh new faces and moveset ideas could give this game the identity it needs. Have you played Donkey Kong 94? It's a mario game but it's completely different from the other Mario games and is a remake of Donkey Kong Arcade. IMO that is the best Mario game in terms of originality it has everything you are describing I've been complaining about the cast thing for so long. I said the same thing, "How could your big reveal be a returning character that is supposed to be dead"? So, I won't be surprised if we get the same crap like we did with SF4. I have actually played this game on the 3DS emulator and it's a ton of fun. This game starts with a nice nod to the original Donkey Kong, then expands itself in so many different ways, like a great sequel should. It's also why I find the Mario RPG's enjoyable. The environments and scenarios have so much creativity put into them. It's just a shame that the games that have the most creativity put into them are spin-offs and the mainstay titles are so dull. It's almost as if Nintendo thinks that a LoZ game NEEDS Link to wear a green tunic and for the setting of the game to be Hyrule. It's why I liked Wind Waker so much. They bury Hyrule and ask Link and Zelda to name the new lands whatever they please. Link wears the green tunic because he is forced to by his grandma and even has a face of dismay when he is forced to put it on, which made it seem like Nintendo was aware that people are getting tired of this trend. Then out come Twilight Princess and Skyward Sword. |
|
|
|
Post by gurpwnder on Dec 25, 2014 17:42:56 GMT -5
Gonna disagree with you there, mate. Sonic Generations is perhaps the best Sonic game since Sonic 3 and Knuckles IMO (and the opinions of many). Sonic Generations was good because it went back to a lot of the elements that made the old Sonic games good. It's only natural it was solid. I think Sonic 3 and Knuckles was the beast though. Many of the Sonic games in between were "meh" at best. Naah man. Many people, myself included, actually prefer the modern Sonic stages because of their thrilling layout and absolutely wonderful level design that constantly had the player looking around for possible shortcuts. Sure you could grind down the road in Modern City Escape, but the rails on the side of the road could actually be grinded on so you could instead go on top of the buildings and take a decent shortcut. Stuff like that is why Sonic Generations is such a great game to me. The levels never outstay their welcome and both Modern and Classic Sonic levels are bursting with energy and high speed platforming. Sonic 3 and Knuckles is obviously the top of the top of all Sonic games, but I'd say Sonic Generations is very close to that level of excellence. |
|
The Big Daddy C-Master
Big Daddy
Living life to the fullest, and it feels great.
I'm still here... for now...
Posts: 26,387
|
Post by The Big Daddy C-Master on Dec 25, 2014 17:55:48 GMT -5
Sonic Generations was good because it went back to a lot of the elements that made the old Sonic games good. It's only natural it was solid. I think Sonic 3 and Knuckles was the beast though. Many of the Sonic games in between were "meh" at best. Naah man. Many people, myself included, actually prefer the modern Sonic stages because of their thrilling layout and absolutely wonderful level design that constantly had the player looking around for possible shortcuts. Sure you could grind down the road in Modern City Escape, but the rails on the side of the road could actually be grinded on so you could instead go on top of the buildings and take a decent shortcut. Stuff like that is why Sonic Generations is such a great game to me. The levels never outstay their welcome and both Modern and Classic Sonic levels are bursting with energy and high speed platforming. Sonic 3 and Knuckles is obviously the top of the top of all Sonic games, but I'd say Sonic Generations is very close to that level of excellence. What I mean is that compared to the other Sonic games it is much closer to the other Sonic game, 2d platforming, fast speed. Less clutter. Sonic 3 and Knuckles did have alternative routes and shortcuts. Lots of hidden routes. Things like that. That's how you got the rings to turn super. The other Sonic games were a lot more linear than 3 and Knuckles which is why it wasn't as good. |
|
|
|
Post by gurpwnder on Dec 25, 2014 18:00:01 GMT -5
Gonna disagree with you there, mate. Sonic Generations is perhaps the best Sonic game since Sonic 3 and Knuckles IMO (and the opinions of many). What did you think of Lost World? I played the 3Ds version, but the Platforming was solid and it was an overall great game. I have actually not played Lost World on either the Wii U or 3DS, but I have heard consistent things about both versions. Both versions seem to have a major identity crisis, not giving Sonic a single, cohesive skillset and varying wildly between levels. Some levels have you running being unable to stop, some levels have you turn into a snowball, despite that not being your intention, some levels have Sonic defying gravity and just flying through the air with extremely awkward controls, etc. This is the first Sonic game to give Sonic a genuine run-button. They also simplified the homing attack for absolutely no reason and can actually hinder gameplay because the homing attack can cause you to go places you didn't want to. The parkour system looks interesting, but I've seen it actually interfere with 2D platforming because there could be a Thwomp like enemy above you, but if you hold the run button while hurrying out of the pit, you can get stuck on the wall because Sonic thinks you want to wall run up it and that can get you killed. The wisps just seem to be there so that Sega could do something with the Wii U gamepad. I heard that Lost World on the 3DS is a more cohesive game and starts out well enough. By world 3 however, the game really takes a turn for the worse and many levels become marathon levels going upwards of 20 minutes per stage. There are also the special stages which can be considered the worst in the entire franchise because of the awkward controls. Of the two, I've heard the Wii U version is superior version, but it is a very mediocre game in its own right. A much better summary can be seen in this video: |
|
|
|
Post by gurpwnder on Dec 25, 2014 18:01:37 GMT -5
Naah man. Many people, myself included, actually prefer the modern Sonic stages because of their thrilling layout and absolutely wonderful level design that constantly had the player looking around for possible shortcuts. Sure you could grind down the road in Modern City Escape, but the rails on the side of the road could actually be grinded on so you could instead go on top of the buildings and take a decent shortcut. Stuff like that is why Sonic Generations is such a great game to me. The levels never outstay their welcome and both Modern and Classic Sonic levels are bursting with energy and high speed platforming. Sonic 3 and Knuckles is obviously the top of the top of all Sonic games, but I'd say Sonic Generations is very close to that level of excellence. What I mean is that compared to the other Sonic games it is much closer to the other Sonic game, 2d platforming, fast speed. Less clutter. Sonic 3 and Knuckles did have alternative routes and shortcuts. Lots of hidden routes. Things like that. That's how you got the rings to turn super. The other Sonic games were a lot more linear than 3 and Knuckles which is why it wasn't as good. That's my main complaint against the Adventure titles, which many hold so near and dear to their hearts for some reason. |
|
The Big Daddy C-Master
Big Daddy
Living life to the fullest, and it feels great.
I'm still here... for now...
Posts: 26,387
|
Post by The Big Daddy C-Master on Dec 25, 2014 18:19:08 GMT -5
What I mean is that compared to the other Sonic games it is much closer to the other Sonic game, 2d platforming, fast speed. Less clutter. Sonic 3 and Knuckles did have alternative routes and shortcuts. Lots of hidden routes. Things like that. That's how you got the rings to turn super. The other Sonic games were a lot more linear than 3 and Knuckles which is why it wasn't as good. That's my main complaint against the Adventure titles, which many hold so near and dear to their hearts for some reason. Because it's in 3-D and the modern kids liked it. Sonic Adventure 2 is especially loved. |
|
|
|
Post by JACK-2 on Dec 25, 2014 18:56:06 GMT -5
I'm not sure Mario is all that hot anymore either. It's more of the same IMO. Early Sonic was excellent and helped redefined the genre, it introduced a lot of things other platforms hadn't at that time. Plus you had collectibles and could power up. Lots of floors above floors and water mechanics with oxygen with a different boss fight on every level. The casino stage, the speed. It had a lot going for it. Mario was more iconic. The first two games were almost identical (though the second was harder), they had a dolled up port for the US. Mario 3 and 4 were the best IMO (4 being world). Yoshi, plus being able to travel back and forth made that game amazing too. Sonic and Knuckles allowed you to use different characters and team up as well, and it had an AMAZING soundtrack too. Both were awesome. I'm going to play them now. Well, power ups have been around since Mario. My problem with sonic is the emphasis on speed makes for a poor platformer. In the early games it wasn't a problem, but in the later games alot of times it feels like you're running straight into a bottomless pit or some shit. Plus the jumps are really floaty. The branching levels was a great idea and the water levels too. That was sonics best contribution. Sound track and level design. |
|
The Big Daddy C-Master
Big Daddy
Living life to the fullest, and it feels great.
I'm still here... for now...
Posts: 26,387
|
Post by The Big Daddy C-Master on Dec 25, 2014 19:00:28 GMT -5
I'm not sure Mario is all that hot anymore either. It's more of the same IMO. Early Sonic was excellent and helped redefined the genre, it introduced a lot of things other platforms hadn't at that time. Plus you had collectibles and could power up. Lots of floors above floors and water mechanics with oxygen with a different boss fight on every level. The casino stage, the speed. It had a lot going for it. Mario was more iconic. The first two games were almost identical (though the second was harder), they had a dolled up port for the US. Mario 3 and 4 were the best IMO (4 being world). Yoshi, plus being able to travel back and forth made that game amazing too. Sonic and Knuckles allowed you to use different characters and team up as well, and it had an AMAZING soundtrack too. Both were awesome. I'm going to play them now. Well, power ups have been around since Mario. My problem with sonic is the emphasis on speed makes for a poor platformer. In the early games it wasn't a problem, but in the later games alot of times it feels like you're running straight into a bottomless pit or some shit. Plus the jumps are really floaty. The branching levels was a great idea and the water levels too. That was sonics best contribution. Sound track and level design. I meant the Super Sonic powerup. So it comes down to taste. You like the slower approach. I like how the platforming was in the latter games and I didn't fall off much. I mean in later Mario games you could fly over a lot of the stages too, effectively bypassing it. I'm talking about the old 2d games in particular, not the 3d ones. Those had their own issues on both sides. |
|
|
|
Post by JACK-2 on Dec 25, 2014 19:01:06 GMT -5
I have actually not played Lost World on either the Wii U or 3DS, but I have heard consistent things about both versions. Both versions seem to have a major identity crisis, not giving Sonic a single, cohesive skillset and varying wildly between levels. Some levels have you running being unable to stop, some levels have you turn into a snowball, despite that not being your intention, some levels have Sonic defying gravity and just flying through the air with extremely awkward controls, etc. This is the first Sonic game to give Sonic a genuine run-button. They also simplified the homing attack for absolutely no reason and can actually hinder gameplay because the homing attack can cause you to go places you didn't want to. The parkour system looks interesting, but I've seen it actually interfere with 2D platforming because there could be a Thwomp like enemy above you, but if you hold the run button while hurrying out of the pit, you can get stuck on the wall because Sonic thinks you want to wall run up it and that can get you killed. The wisps just seem to be there so that Sega could do something with the Wii U gamepad. I heard that Lost World on the 3DS is a more cohesive game and starts out well enough. By world 3 however, the game really takes a turn for the worse and many levels become marathon levels going upwards of 20 minutes per stage. There are also the special stages which can be considered the worst in the entire franchise because of the awkward controls. Of the two, I've heard the Wii U version is superior version, but it is a very mediocre game in its own right. A much better summary can be seen in this video: This sounds sorta nitpickish tbh. The homing attacks I agree with, I dislike the way they are implemented. But, the "None cohesive skill set varying between levels" I don't understand this complaint. Doesn't seem to make sense tbh. |
|
|
|
Post by JACK-2 on Dec 25, 2014 19:05:25 GMT -5
I meant the super sonic powerup. So it comes down to taste. You like the slower approach. I like how the platforming was in the latter games and I didn't fall off too much. I mean in later Mario games you could fly over a lot of the stages too, effectively bypassing it. I'm talking about the old 2d games in particular, not the 3d ones. Those had their own issues on both sides. Platformers tend to require precision jumping and Sonics speed didn't help. Well, to be fir it didn't hurt completely but I think compared to platformers like DKC and Mario sonic lacked in the platforming department. At first there was more of a balance of speed and platforming. But, speed just became too much of a focus. Mario never had that problem. |
|
The Big Daddy C-Master
Big Daddy
Living life to the fullest, and it feels great.
I'm still here... for now...
Posts: 26,387
|
Post by The Big Daddy C-Master on Dec 25, 2014 19:10:38 GMT -5
I meant the super sonic powerup. So it comes down to taste. You like the slower approach. I like how the platforming was in the latter games and I didn't fall off too much. I mean in later Mario games you could fly over a lot of the stages too, effectively bypassing it. I'm talking about the old 2d games in particular, not the 3d ones. Those had their own issues on both sides. Platformers tend to require precision jumping and Sonics speed didn't help. Well, to be fir it didn't hurt completely but I think compared to platformers like DKC and Mario sonic lacked in the platforming department. At first there was more of a balance of speed and platforming. But, speed just became too much of a focus. Mario never had that problem. Speed can enhance platforming if it's done a certain way. Sonic's games weren't just about jumping over pits, it was about exploring new areas and going through floors upon floors design where the levels intertwined. Donkey Kong used a lot of barrel shooting shenanigans early on which hurt it, but they fixed it more in 2. The third one wasn't as good as the first two. Mario is just different altogether but I don't recall the platforming being all that hard (2 was the hardest) in the later game you could just get a blue yoshi/cape and fly through everything anyways. A fun game but it was exploration based and less on raw platforming. The first 2 were the most platform heavy. |
|
|
|
Post by JACK-2 on Dec 25, 2014 19:17:54 GMT -5
Speed can enhance platforming if it's done a certain way. Sonic's games weren't just about jumping over pits, it was about exploring new areas and going through floors upon floors design where the levels intertwined. Agree'd 100%. I don't like the way the platforming worked with the speed with sonic. But, as you said Sonic was about branching paths. This is why levels like Mystic Cave and Aquatic Ruins Zone were so amazing. Donkey Kong used a lot of barrel shooting shenanigans early on which hurt it, but they fixed it more in 2. The third one wasn't as good as the first two. True, but if you remember with 2 as you said they did a good job implementing it on the levels. 3 was...TBH I barely played 3 so no comment from me. Mario is just different altogether but I don't recall the platforming being all that hard (2 was the hardest) in the later game you could just get a blue yoshi/cape and fly through everything anyways. A fun game but it was exploration based and less on raw platforming. The first 2 were the most platform heavy. Yeah, the flying hats really broke the game tbh. Good point, I won't lie even in New Super Mario Bros. you have stuff like Helicopter hat or Tanuki suit where you fly. And, they even give you a golden Tanuki suit where you're invincible. Dumbed down completely. But, the final boss fight with Bowser had some good platforming. |
|
The Big Daddy C-Master
Big Daddy
Living life to the fullest, and it feels great.
I'm still here... for now...
Posts: 26,387
|
Post by The Big Daddy C-Master on Dec 25, 2014 19:23:15 GMT -5
Speed can enhance platforming if it's done a certain way. Sonic's games weren't just about jumping over pits, it was about exploring new areas and going through floors upon floors design where the levels intertwined. Agree'd 100%. I don't like the way the platforming worked with the speed with sonic. But, as you said Sonic was about branching paths. This is why levels like Mystic Cave and Aquatic Ruins Zone were so amazing. Donkey Kong used a lot of barrel shooting shenanigans early on which hurt it, but they fixed it more in 2. The third one wasn't as good as the first two. True, but if you remember with 2 as you said they did a good job implementing it on the levels. 3 was...TBH I barely played 3 so no comment from me. Mario is just different altogether but I don't recall the platforming being all that hard (2 was the hardest) in the later game you could just get a blue yoshi/cape and fly through everything anyways. A fun game but it was exploration based and less on raw platforming. The first 2 were the most platform heavy. Yeah, the flying hats really broke the game tbh. Good point, I won't lie even in New Super Mario Bros. you have stuff like Helicopter hat or Tanuki suit where you fly. And, they even give you a golden Tanuki suit where you're invincible. Dumbed down completely. But, the final boss fight with Bowser had some good platforming. Yea. I liked the mixing of levels and having water and things like that. It gives it a lot of replay value. I love Donkey Kong Country but some of those barrel levels were irritating, especially that snow one. Mario 1 and 2 felt the most platform like and they had skill. TBH none of them were really hard like say Battletoads, lol. |
|
|
|
Post by JACK-2 on Dec 25, 2014 20:05:15 GMT -5
A much better summary can be seen in this video:
That's as far as I got. |
|
|
|
Post by gurpwnder on Dec 26, 2014 0:51:15 GMT -5
This sounds sorta nitpickish tbh. The homing attacks I agree with, I dislike the way they are implemented. But, the "None cohesive skill set varying between levels" I don't understand this complaint. Doesn't seem to make sense tbh. It's a very big problem because it appears that no style is done particularly well. In other games, like Sonic 3 and Knuckles, we got to see the 2D style refined and perfected. With Generations, they managed to learn from Sonic Colours and Unleashed and build upon them. With Sonic Lost World, we're not seeing everything built from scratch and that can be very problematic when it doesn't work how you want it to or it doesn't work as well as it should. Losing lives because you walked into a wall with a little bit of speed is very bad design IMO. |
|
|
|
Post by gurpwnder on Dec 26, 2014 1:25:31 GMT -5
Speed can enhance platforming if it's done a certain way. Sonic's games weren't just about jumping over pits, it was about exploring new areas and going through floors upon floors design where the levels intertwined. Agree'd 100%. I don't like the way the platforming worked with the speed with sonic. But, as you said Sonic was about branching paths. This is why levels like Mystic Cave and Aquatic Ruins Zone were so amazing. Yeah, the flying hats really broke the game tbh. Good point, I won't lie even in New Super Mario Bros. you have stuff like Helicopter hat or Tanuki suit where you fly. And, they even give you a golden Tanuki suit where you're invincible. Dumbed down completely. But, the final boss fight with Bowser had some good platforming. While Sonic is all about branching pathways (in the good games anyways), most of the optimal paths required some platforming to get to long stretches of space where you could run unobstructed. Suboptimal paths had you stopping often so that you could hop over a ledge or jump across some slow moving platforms, etc, so I wouldn't shit on Sonic's platforming - it just handled it differently than Mario. Also, to add onto my previous post, the reason why we say Sonic being too unfocused being a bad thing is that his games are so radically different each time. Don't get me wrong, variety is the spice of life and playing the same style for too long will get boring, but Sonic's entire history is just nuts. I'd say Jim Sterling does a great job in explaining the problem (I've timestamped the part where he starts discussing it. It's not very long, promise.) This is why I hate Sonic Lost World so much. Fresh off the heels of the greatest Sonic game since Sonic 3 and Knuckles, they scrap everything and give us an unpolished mess where many half baked gameplay styles are presented to us with no cohesiveness whatsoever. |
|
|
|
Post by gurpwnder on Dec 26, 2014 1:33:22 GMT -5
That's my main complaint against the Adventure titles, which many hold so near and dear to their hearts for some reason. Because it's in 3-D and the modern kids liked it. Sonic Adventure 2 is especially loved. SA2 was a bad game. Sonic and Shadow's speed sections were by far the best part of SA2, but even those areas were the most linear Sonic stages I have ever seen before, even worse than its predecessor SA1's Sonic sections. Tails and Eggman's sections were plagued with horribly clunky controls, and uncooperative camera and terrible enemy placement that spawned enemies right on your head or let enemies attack you before a door could even open. Platforming sections (Especially Tails' Desert Ruins section) were a nightmare, except when you were Eggman under low gravity. Gamme from Adventure 1 controller much smoother and his stages Knuckles and Rouge's Emerald Hunting sections handled much better than Adventure 1, but the severely butchered radar system is the stupidest change I've ever seen before. Being able to detect only 1 emerald piece at a time made these atages absolutely terrible. Not to mention that the hint system was changed so that it already required you to be insanely familiar with the level design which was another HUGE step backwards from SA1. The gigantic levels only exasperated these issues into a giant mess. Only 33% of SA2 was actually IMO decent, but even the 33% that was good wasn't really that great because of how linear the levels were. |
|
The Big Daddy C-Master
Big Daddy
Living life to the fullest, and it feels great.
I'm still here... for now...
Posts: 26,387
|
Post by The Big Daddy C-Master on Dec 26, 2014 2:15:02 GMT -5
Agree'd 100%. I don't like the way the platforming worked with the speed with sonic. But, as you said Sonic was about branching paths. This is why levels like Mystic Cave and Aquatic Ruins Zone were so amazing. Yeah, the flying hats really broke the game tbh. Good point, I won't lie even in New Super Mario Bros. you have stuff like Helicopter hat or Tanuki suit where you fly. And, they even give you a golden Tanuki suit where you're invincible. Dumbed down completely. But, the final boss fight with Bowser had some good platforming. While Sonic is all about branching pathways (in the good games anyways), most of the optimal paths required some platforming to get to long stretches of space where you could run unobstructed. Suboptimal paths had you stopping often so that you could hop over a ledge or jump across some slow moving platforms, etc, so I wouldn't shit on Sonic's platforming - it just handled it differently than Mario. Also, to add onto my previous post, the reason why we say Sonic being too unfocused being a bad thing is that his games are so radically different each time. Don't get me wrong, variety is the spice of life and playing the same style for too long will get boring, but Sonic's entire history is just nuts. I'd say Jim Sterling does a great job in explaining the problem (I've timestamped the part where he starts discussing it. It's not very long, promise.) This is why I hate Sonic Lost World so much. Fresh off the heels of the greatest Sonic game since Sonic 3 and Knuckles, they scrap everything and give us an unpolished mess where many half baked gameplay styles are presented to us with no cohesiveness whatsoever. Yep. Although what made old Sonic games so great is there was no "optimal" path. You either played for speed or you played to explore. I usually explored more the longer I played. You're right though. Sonic does alienate its audience too much. Very true. |
|
The Big Daddy C-Master
Big Daddy
Living life to the fullest, and it feels great.
I'm still here... for now...
Posts: 26,387
|
Post by The Big Daddy C-Master on Dec 26, 2014 2:39:16 GMT -5
Because it's in 3-D and the modern kids liked it. Sonic Adventure 2 is especially loved. SA2 was a bad game. Sonic and Shadow's speed sections were by far the best part of SA2, but even those areas were the most linear Sonic stages I have ever seen before, even worse than its predecessor SA1's Sonic sections. Tails and Eggman's sections were plagued with horribly clunky controls, and uncooperative camera and terrible enemy placement that spawned enemies right on your head or let enemies attack you before a door could even open. Platforming sections (Especially Tails' Desert Ruins section) were a nightmare, except when you were Eggman under low gravity. Gamme from Adventure 1 controller much smoother and his stages Knuckles and Rouge's Emerald Hunting sections handled much better than Adventure 1, but the severely butchered radar system is the stupidest change I've ever seen before. Being able to detect only 1 emerald piece at a time made these atages absolutely terrible. Not to mention that the hint system was changed so that it already required you to be insanely familiar with the level design which was another HUGE step backwards from SA1. The gigantic levels only exasperated these issues into a giant mess. Only 33% of SA2 was actually IMO decent, but even the 33% that was good wasn't really that great because of how linear the levels were. So you think the game was linear, had bad controls, and overall some bad design choice. Why do you think it was so loved then? Was it because of "oh graphix"? I have a friend and his brother who think they're the best and I think's it's because of that. |
|
|
|
Post by gurpwnder on Dec 26, 2014 3:45:08 GMT -5
SA2 was a bad game. Sonic and Shadow's speed sections were by far the best part of SA2, but even those areas were the most linear Sonic stages I have ever seen before, even worse than its predecessor SA1's Sonic sections. Tails and Eggman's sections were plagued with horribly clunky controls, and uncooperative camera and terrible enemy placement that spawned enemies right on your head or let enemies attack you before a door could even open. Platforming sections (Especially Tails' Desert Ruins section) were a nightmare, except when you were Eggman under low gravity. Gamme from Adventure 1 controller much smoother and his stages Knuckles and Rouge's Emerald Hunting sections handled much better than Adventure 1, but the severely butchered radar system is the stupidest change I've ever seen before. Being able to detect only 1 emerald piece at a time made these atages absolutely terrible. Not to mention that the hint system was changed so that it already required you to be insanely familiar with the level design which was another HUGE step backwards from SA1. The gigantic levels only exasperated these issues into a giant mess. Only 33% of SA2 was actually IMO decent, but even the 33% that was good wasn't really that great because of how linear the levels were. So you think the game was linear, had bad controls, and overall some bad design choice. Why do you think it was so loved then? Was it because of "oh graphix"? I have a friend and his brother who think they're the best and I think's it's because of that. Don't take my word for it, you can see what I'm talking about for yourself. |
|
|
|
Post by JACK-2 on Dec 26, 2014 4:57:14 GMT -5
It's a very big problem because it appears that no style is done particularly well. No style is done well. That's a massive exaggeration if not ridiculous assertion. There are styles that are wierd like pushing fruits into blenders and there are styles that are well done. To say no style is good is exaggerating. In other games, like Sonic 3 and Knuckles, we got to see the 2D style refined and perfected. With Generations, they managed to learn from Sonic Colours and Unleashed and build upon them. Yes, because generations is a throw back to older games. So, of course they'll perfect older gameplay styles. It's alot easier to build on what you've done before then to do something complete new. It's like C said. With Sonic Lost World, we're not seeing everything built from scratch and that can be very problematic when it doesn't work how you want it to or it doesn't work as well as it should. Losing lives because you walked into a wall with a little bit of speed is very bad design IMO. I don't get this complaint. "We're not seeing everything built from scratch"? Um, Lost world alot of game-play elements are built from scratch and you only stick to walls if you hold the run button. You won't stick if you let it go. I think that review was silly. At first he was hitting some good points, especially about the homing attacks ans whatnot which I nodded in agreement. Towards the middle it just became nonsensical when he went with the whole: "It doesn't feel like a Sonic game routine". Yet, he implied the Adventure series was good even if that was much less of a "True" sonic game then this one. While it's true the level themes change randomly and you often have zones that revolve around strange objectives: Like pushing fruit into a blender. If that randomness means you get other types of game modes then I'm game. Furthermore, in Video-Games designing a "Coherent play style" isn't really an objective tbh. Certain game shave challenge modes for example where each challenge is different from the next. Sonic Lost World seems to folow that type of Game design. All in all, that review was meh. |
|
|
|
Post by JACK-2 on Dec 26, 2014 5:02:58 GMT -5
While Sonic is all about branching pathways (in the good games anyways), most of the optimal paths required some platforming to get to long stretches of space where you could run unobstructed. Suboptimal paths had you stopping often so that you could hop over a ledge or jump across some slow moving platforms, etc, so I wouldn't shit on Sonic's platforming - it just handled it differently than Mario. That's the problem with the platforming. You're running at breakneck speeds until you reach a platforming part and you literally have to stop and slowly platform. That's not a good way to platform. It's a bad pace tbh, because you're essentially going Super fast > Slow > Super fast slow. Also, to add onto my previous post, the reason why we say Sonic being too unfocused being a bad thing is that his games are so radically different each time. Don't get me wrong, variety is the spice of life and playing the same style for too long will get boring, but Sonic's entire history is just nuts. I'd say Jim Sterling does a great job in explaining the problem (I've timestamped the part where he starts discussing it. It's not very long, promise.) This is why I hate Sonic Lost World so much. Fresh off the heels of the greatest Sonic game since Sonic 3 and Knuckles, they scrap everything and give us an unpolished mess where many half baked gameplay styles are presented to us with no cohesiveness whatsoever. But, sonic games were never focused when it came to platforming. Speed and going fast into branching paths have become to main focus. The platforming is alright, but the red light green light style of platforming isn't that great. Ironically, the platforming in Lost World is actually good. Most of the gameplay styles are platforming oriented. It's not completely random at all. |
|
The Big Daddy C-Master
Big Daddy
Living life to the fullest, and it feels great.
I'm still here... for now...
Posts: 26,387
|
Post by The Big Daddy C-Master on Dec 26, 2014 5:04:45 GMT -5
So you think the game was linear, had bad controls, and overall some bad design choice. Why do you think it was so loved then? Was it because of "oh graphix"? I have a friend and his brother who think they're the best and I think's it's because of that. Don't take my word for it, you can see what I'm talking about for yourself. Starting to watch it now. I wasn't doubting you though, I was asking why it was so loved. |
|
The Big Daddy C-Master
Big Daddy
Living life to the fullest, and it feels great.
I'm still here... for now...
Posts: 26,387
|
Post by The Big Daddy C-Master on Dec 26, 2014 5:08:21 GMT -5
While Sonic is all about branching pathways (in the good games anyways), most of the optimal paths required some platforming to get to long stretches of space where you could run unobstructed. Suboptimal paths had you stopping often so that you could hop over a ledge or jump across some slow moving platforms, etc, so I wouldn't shit on Sonic's platforming - it just handled it differently than Mario. That's the problem with the platforming. You're running at breakneck speeds until you reach a platforming part and you literally have to stop and slowly platform. That's not a good way to platform. It's a bad pace tbh, because you're essentially going Super fast > Slow > Super fast slow. Also, to add onto my previous post, the reason why we say Sonic being too unfocused being a bad thing is that his games are so radically different each time. Don't get me wrong, variety is the spice of life and playing the same style for too long will get boring, but Sonic's entire history is just nuts. I'd say Jim Sterling does a great job in explaining the problem (I've timestamped the part where he starts discussing it. It's not very long, promise.) This is why I hate Sonic Lost World so much. Fresh off the heels of the greatest Sonic game since Sonic 3 and Knuckles, they scrap everything and give us an unpolished mess where many half baked gameplay styles are presented to us with no cohesiveness whatsoever. But, sonic games were never focused when it came to platforming. Speed and going fast into branching paths have become to main focus. The platforming is alright, but the red light green light style of platforming isn't that great. Ironically, the platforming in Lost World is actually good. Most of the gameplay styles are platforming oriented. It's not completely random at all. You never had to run at breakneck speeds and slow down. They are perfectly doable really fast. In fact the game encouraged you to finish faster by increasing your score. So it was meant to reward players who played fast. You could also explore the stages and take your time. They rewarded this with the emerald system. You could do both. Mario wasn't necessarily better in this aspect. Just more 1 dimensional. You had to play the game one way unless you're talking about the later games where you could just fly past everything and ignore the platforming altogether. Kind of contradictory for a platformer isn't it? |
|
|
|
Post by JACK-2 on Dec 26, 2014 5:09:13 GMT -5
I watched the Jimquisition video. IMO, he's sorta right. But, he misses that Generations builds on all the past games. But, more importantly the game designed from unleashed and onward have been consistent. Unleashed [At least the day time levels] is consistent with Colors and Generations. Lost World is different though.
|
|
Apr 9, 2018 6:20:33 GMT -5
Apr 9, 2018 6:20:33 GMT -5