Sonic the Hedgehog Discussion and Comparisons

1

Well, that's not something in particular to Lost World then. Since wisp were in colors Also, why boost? What's so good about boost? I prefer the speed in spin-dash, speed shoes and speed boosters. All of which are invalidated by a button that is not only invincible, but reaches top speed instantly.

2

I don't see why the game has to tell you even something that would take less than 2 minutes to figure out. As for the wii-mote, you only use it to control the wisp movements and not it's abilities. Actually, you use motion control for wisp in colors like frenzy wisp.

3

If you're falling into bottomless pits then yes. It does improve it, because now you have a margin of error.

4

Even if you used the run button 100% of the time. Why would you need to use it to traverse an area where all you need to do is time your jumps t avoid getting crushed. Furthermore, preference for the run button is just that a preference. I prefer to use the spin-dash. It doesn't tell me much at all and I don't think you are attacking lost world. Rather you are, you're over-stating the run buttons importance just to get a point across. Now, you're claming you rather use the run button even when you didn't play the game just so you can justify it's critique. Yet, before you were stating you prefer boost which is much faster than Spin-dash. Which isn't even extreme, it's a short momentary boost that gradually slows down vs boost.

5

No, because you can parkour while spin-dashing if you hold the run button. It's not a seperate function: Spin-dash and parkour. You can do both. It's not either or. You could spin-dash and if you think you're gonna fall just parkour a bit. Even then though the layout is like this:

____ ____ ____X__
_| |____| |___|

X = Sonic.

You can small hop using spin-dash.

6

I'm sorry but Less time? It doesn't take any time to cross those gaps.

7

But, it's the wrong idea. It doesn't take any time at all to cross those gaps.

8

Sonic has always had platforming segments that require beginners to slow down when plaforming. Outside of speedruns.

9

No we don't because platforming parts in sonic often break speed unless you know how to speed run them.

10

Common sense would tell him that holding down the button will sick you to it. It's not complicated at all.

11

You still do the same as well, but with modern sonic based gameplay tacked on.

12

You also had wisp, free falling , grinding, high-speed segments, and so forth with it just like lost world.

13

There aren't any play styles from adventure series though. Furthermore, the adventure series had entire characters dedicated to specific playstyles vs this game that might have a tiny part where the craziest thing you will do is push fruit into a blender or become a snowball. Most of the time though it's standard sonic fare. If these play-styles are a problem they are because of previous games not specifically Lost World.

14

It took inspiration from that which is why it has it. Is it good to mix 2-D and 3-D? I don't why Sonic 4 doing means we can't mix it. Can you explain this?

15

That's a strawman, I never said that. I stated that this game has elements from many other games not that these elements automatically make it good.

16

It's not a change, though. It's reusing many older elements most likely they're used because the implements have gained momentum over the years. So, putting them in would seem natural. That's not lost worlds fault.

Okay, agreed.

18

It's like colors actually.

19

It is dialed back. Because 99% of the pits lead to death though the 2-D levels take exception and follow traditional sonic.

1) Well, we're talking about Lost World here, so that's all that we should be concerned about. Colours' problems can be discussed later.
Boost appeared in Rush, Rush Adventure, Colours, Unleashed and Generations, which were fairly decent games (except Unleashed, but at least it has been improved upon in later games). It's been tried, tested, improved and is proven to work.
It captures the feel of Sonic speed while also incentivising replayability via time trials.
It's not permanent, it is an ability that is earned and is limited in usage, which is why it works.

2) The game says "Touch the screen to control the drill wisp". Why would a player wiggle the analogue sticks then?
You can play Colours with a Gamecube controller, so I have no idea what you're talking about.

3) In good Sonic games, you're generally NOT falling into bottomless pits unless you're near the bottom pathway in a level.
I say the current system works well because again, Sonic is a momentum based platformer. If you've earned the momentum to be able to clear the gap, you deserve to cross it.
If not, you shouldn't make it up. You didn't gather the momentum that the game demanded you have in order to cross the gap.

4, 5 and 6) Let me go back a bit, screw the example and let's go back to the very basics. Mario. I hold the run button. I can run wherever I please with no problems. Sonic 3 and Knuckles. I can run wherever I please with no problems.
Sonic Lost World. I hold the run button. I must now be careful of any vertical wall unless I want to stick to it like glue. Why? because the game cannot handle my desire to run. Run. My most basic movement option. Spin dashing isn't a basic movement option because it's an ability. Let me say that again. The SONIC GAME literally cannot handle me RUNNING in basic gameplay. In order to not stick to the walls like glue, I have to change the way I play. I have to walk or spindash. This means I have to compensate for the fact that the game cannot handle me running. All because 'run' and 'parkour' are the same button.

Now let me spin this at you from a different angle. What if we had no run button? What if analogue movement dictated whether Sonic walked or ran (like what the analogue stick was designed to do since its inception)? Then we would have no conflicts of interest. I could run AND straddle all the walls I please AT THE SAME TIME. The 'run' button could instead be the 'parkour' button. Do you want to stick to walls? Hold the button, so you're 100% sure that you're going to stick to the wall. Don't hold the button and you're 100% certain NOT to stick to the wall. AND you can run freely whenever and wherever you desire. Sounds good to me.

6 and 7) I could put it mathematically if it helps. Distance D is D. Speed is V. The time taken is T.
V = D/T
TV = D
T = D/V
D is fixed. Suppose D = 1m. Suppose Running gives you a speed of 5m/s and walking gives you a speed of 2s
T = 1/5 or 0.2 seconds to travel 1m at 5m/s.
T = 1/2 or 0.5 seconds to travel 1m at 2m/s

Now let us assume that the block drops every 2 seconds.
2 - 0.2 seconds = 1.8 free seconds I have should I run
2 - 0.5 seconds = 1.5 free seconds should I walk

Therefore, I have more time should I run than when I walk.

All kidding and smartassing aside, this is actually how I work. I do not stand under whomps whenever possible in any Mario game. I just get the hell outta their way so I don't die. Same mentality. Even if they take an eternity to come down, I don't wanna be there and I want out immediately. Dying and restarting at the last checkpoint? Ain't nobody got time fo' that.

8 and 9) One is a conscious stop by the player should they wish to navigate the platforms that the game has laid out for them.
The other is forced on the player because if they run, they are inconvenienced by the parkour system.
One is basic Classic Sonic platforming and the other is the player forced to compensate for a broken control scheme.
Not what I'd call remotely comparable.

10) Common sense says that holding the run button makes you run. Bad game design says that holding the run button makes you stick to walls you had no intention of sticking to.

11) Snowball Sonic. Not basic, cohesive Sonic momentum based platforming.
Flying levels? Not basic, cohesive Sonic momentum based platforming.
Pinball gimmicks? Not basic, cohesive Sonic momentum based platforming.
Fruit blending? While this one doesn't change the way Sonic controls, it changes the overall goal of that section of the level from platforming to walking to a blender. So not basic, cohesive Sonic momentum based platforming.
Forced mach speed? Not basic, cohesive Sonic momentum based platforming.
Another mishmash of 2D and 3D that's wholly unnecessary? Not basic, cohesive Sonic momentum based platforming.
A wide variety of wisps that fundamentally transform you temporarily, giving you an alternate control sceme? Not basic, cohesive Sonic momentum based platforming.

So no. Not even REMOTELY comparable to the classics.

12) I'll say that freefalling is lame, because I'm not running and jumping.
I can see why they added the wisp to Generations' Planet Wisp level. Without it, the Modern Sonic sections were already very similar to Colours.
Again, they only put it in that level because this game is a tribute to Sonic's history. At least I'm glad they used the least gimmicky Wisp to give Sonic what is essentially a superjump. The spike Wisp was a bit more annoying because of puzzles requiring the player to stick to certain places.
Rail grinding is not a whole new game mechanic, it integrates with Sonic's 3D movements fairly intuitively and grind rails were a very important component to 3D Sonic games since SA2.
I have no idea where 'high-speed segments' come into Generations. Are you comparing boosting to mach speed sections?
One done entirely on the decision of the player and the other forced on the player, punishing them with death / rings should they touch a wall / obsctacle?
There aren't any mach speed section in Generations.

13) Okay, what I said previously DEFINITELY applies here: "If past games made a mistake, that's not justification for this game to make the same mistake".
Let me copy / paste this here quoting you: "Most of the time though it's standard sonic fare. If these play-styles are a problem they are because of previous games not specifically Lost World." so you don't call this a strawman.
You are attempting to justify this game's mistakes because previous games made the same mistake.
That is poor justification

14) I'm not getting what you're asking. I've explained my stance on this subject. If you'd like, I can repeat myself.
There is zero reason for this game to have both 2D AND 3D in the same game. you're altering the level layout and feel of the game for no reason.
This adds to the problem of this game having absolutely no idea what it wants to do. It cannot decide between 2D and 3D.
Pick one style and flesh it out to make a memorable game. We have yet to have a truly great 3D Sonic game because SEGA cannot make up its mind on what it wants Sonic to do.
Even if you say "it's taking inspiration from old Sonic games", that excuse doesn't work because that's why Sonic Generations exists. This is a new Sonic game, we can do without the pandering when that's what the last game was dedicated to.
This game is already littered with gimmicks, and it cannot even decide which dimension it game should stick on.

15) I think I was referring to "Do you notice that this game uses alot of playstyles of older sonics. I think that's the justification. That's what they were going for.
"
I just said that that's not a good justification.
Even then, I forgot to comment on how that statement is wrong. Sonic's very act of MOVEMENT has been altered with the addition of a run button.
The gimmicks are all new outside of mach speed and some wisps (which handle differently because forced gimmick controls).
This is perhaps the furthest I've seen Sonic stray from the formula in a main Sonic game. Just having badniks, a spindash, Eggman and rings doesn't make a Sonic game a Sonic game.
That stuff's only face level. What makes a Sonic game a Sonic game is the emphasis on momentum based platforming and its signature level design.

16) Putting what in?

17) Good.

18) Which is like Generations, which was intuitive and worked well. I brought that point up because I'm watching 4 people who played the game before and they're saying "Why is the rail hop from Adventure 2 / Generations gone? Why are we manually jumping from rail to rail like in '06?"

19) Dialed back exploration is no bueno. That's the stuff that made great Sonic games like Sonic 3 + K legendary.

SSF4: Dan
SFXT: Paul and Marshall
SF3: Sean
CVS2: Yamazaki, Ken, Joe
KOF13: Robert, Joe, Ryo
TTT2: Paul and Forest
Soul Calibur 2: Raphael
Soul Calibur 5: Raphael and Astaroth
Mortal Kombat 9: Johnny Cage
Garou: Marco Rodriguez
Bleach Dark Souls: Ganju
SSBM: Mario, Luigi, DK
SSBB: DK

JACK-2
Paragon

Posts: 5,352

Sonic the Hedgehog Discussion and Comparisons Dec 27, 2014 16:02:09 GMT -5

Quote

Post by JACK-2 on Dec 27, 2014 16:02:09 GMT -5

1) Well, we're talking about Lost World here, so that's all that we should be concerned about. Colours' problems can be discussed later.

Not if you're giving games that have the same gameplay elements as lost world a pass all while criticizing Lost World for having said elements. That's bias tbh.

Boost appeared in Rush, Rush Adventure, Colours, Unleashed and Generations, which were fairly decent games (except Unleashed, but at least it has been improved upon in later games). It's been tried, tested, improved and is proven to work.
It captures the feel of Sonic speed while also incentivising replayability via time trials.
It's not permanent, it is an ability that is earned and is limited in usage, which is why it works.

The question I asked was what does it improve on? Why do we need it? We had other speed mechanics and having time trails package dealed into it doesn't make boost a good mechanic. That just means it's there with other type of mechanics added in. You could easily make time trails with other mechanics such as spin-dash at the end of the day. "It's not permanent" So, what? You gain it very easily and it's invincible when you're using it against many enemies. You're essentially stating that since it's not broken it's a great mechanic. That's silly.

2) The game says "Touch the screen to control the drill wisp". Why would a player wiggle the analogue sticks then?
You can play Colours with a Gamecube controller, so I have no idea what you're talking about.

Not all wisp are motion controlled, though. At the end of the day you've change suits to debating how wisps are controlled. You seemed to be arguing wisp were gimmicky in general in Lost World but somehow not in Colors because they're motion controlled. It comes off as frivolous.

3) In good Sonic games, you're generally NOT falling into bottomless pits unless you're near the bottom pathway in a level.
I say the current system works well because again, Sonic is a momentum based platformer. If you've earned the momentum to be able to clear the gap, you deserve to cross it.
If not, you shouldn't make it up. You didn't gather the momentum that the game demanded you have in order to cross the gap.

Interesting. Weren't you complaining about lack of tutorials earlier for simple mechanics like parkour? In previous sonic games can you point to tutorials or any early warning systems that indicate when these gaps are coming as you move at high speeds so you know they were there in the first place to clear them? We didn't even get bottomless pit indicators until generations. We had to pick it up intuitively via trial and era. Yet, why isn't this an issue with you? Lost world gives us a margin of era, but that's bad. But, when other sonic games gives us nothing that's good? All at the same-time we need tutorials?

4, 5 and 6) Let me go back a bit, screw the example and let's go back to the very basics. Mario. I hold the run button. I can run wherever I please with no problems. Sonic 3 and Knuckles. I can run wherever I please with no problems.
Sonic Lost World. I hold the run button. I must now be careful of any vertical wall unless I want to stick to it like glue. Why? because the game cannot handle my desire to run. Run. My most basic movement option. Spin dashing isn't a basic movement option because it's an ability. Let me say that again. The SONIC GAME literally cannot handle me RUNNING in basic gameplay. In order to not stick to the walls like glue, I have to change the way I play. I have to walk or spindash. This means I have to compensate for the fact that the game cannot handle me running. All because 'run' and 'parkour' are the same button.

Fair enough, imo they should make it so that you build gradually speed by running like in previous sonic games rather than going into a perpetual jog.

Now let me spin this at you from a different angle. What if we had no run button? What if analogue movement dictated whether Sonic walked or ran (like what the analogue stick was designed to do since its inception)? Then we would have no conflicts of interest. I could run AND straddle all the walls I please AT THE SAME TIME. The 'run' button could instead be the 'parkour' button. Do you want to stick to walls? Hold the button, so you're 100% sure that you're going to stick to the wall. Don't hold the button and you're 100% certain NOT to stick to the wall. AND you can run freely whenever and wherever you desire. Sounds good to me.

I agree with this. The parkour button should make still be a run button, but sonic should still be able to run as he builds momentum. Agree'd.

6 and 7) I could put it mathematically if it helps. Distance D is D. Speed is V. The time taken is T.
V = D/T
TV = D
T = D/V
D is fixed. Suppose D = 1m. Suppose Running gives you a speed of 5m/s and walking gives you a speed of 2s
T = 1/5 or 0.2 seconds to travel 1m at 5m/s.
T = 1/2 or 0.5 seconds to travel 1m at 2m/s

Now let us assume that the block drops every 2 seconds.
2 - 0.2 seconds = 1.8 free seconds I have should I run
2 - 0.5 seconds = 1.5 free seconds should I walk

Therefore, I have more time should I run than when I walk.

All kidding and smartassing aside, this is actually how I work. I do not stand under whomps whenever possible in any Mario game. I just get the hell outta their way so I don't die. Same mentality. Even if they take an eternity to come down, I don't wanna be there and I want out immediately. Dying and restarting at the last checkpoint? Ain't nobody got time fo' that.

Well of course you have more time if you run than if you walk. But, more time for something sooo slow? If you feel more comfortable with speed you can actually jump and tap the run button. Seriously that part is so freaking easy. There's no thinking necessary that guy just sucked and blamed the game. You would have no problem with it whatsoever.

8 and 9) One is a conscious stop by the player should they wish to navigate the platforms that the game has laid out for them.
The other is forced on the player because if they run, they are inconvenienced by the parkour system.
One is basic Classic Sonic platforming and the other is the player forced to compensate for a broken control scheme.
Not what I'd call remotely comparable.

Yes, but the parkour system is far less impeded by bottomless pits or platforming in general. As I stated in point number 1. While traditional sonic will often require the player to hit the brakes and break his momentum. Infact, the aforementioned segment would also require him to break speed if it were in a classic sonic game. Likewise, during a speedrun it is possible in both Classic and Lost World for a pro to maintain speed in those segments.

Overall, you've listed one instance where parkour might not be all that good while Classic sonic momentum based platforming alot of times requires you to break momentum in general. Because there are no tutorials or early warning systems that tell you about these pits and you're forced to stop short of max speed.

10) Common sense says that holding the run button makes you run. Bad game design says that holding the run button makes you stick to walls you had no intention of sticking to.

Yes, it will stick as long as you're near a wall. Keyword being near a wall. And, as stated above even classic sonic with his traditional type of momentum would have problems building speed necessary to cross that part unless he saw it coming.

11) Snowball Sonic. Not basic, cohesive Sonic momentum based platforming.
Flying levels? Not basic, cohesive Sonic momentum based platforming.
Pinball gimmicks? Not basic, cohesive Sonic momentum based platforming.
Fruit blending? While this one doesn't change the way Sonic controls, it changes the overall goal of that section of the level from platforming to walking to a blender. So not basic, cohesive Sonic momentum based platforming.
Forced mach speed? Not basic, cohesive Sonic momentum based platforming.
Another mishmash of 2D and 3D that's wholly unnecessary? Not basic, cohesive Sonic momentum based platforming.
A wide variety of wisps that fundamentally transform you temporarily, giving you an alternate control sceme? Not basic, cohesive Sonic momentum based platforming.

So no. Not even REMOTELY comparable to the classics.

What about Wisp in general, Grinding, Free falling Pinball that has been in Casino Night-zone since classic Sonic and all the game play features that have been in all these sonic games before. How are they part of the cohesive Sonic momentum based platforming when they have nothing to do with momentum based platforming? Either they are part of the package or they are not. It can't be "They are only good in games I like".

12) I'll say that freefalling is lame, because I'm not running and jumping.
I can see why they added the wisp to Generations' Planet Wisp level. Without it, the Modern Sonic sections were already very similar to Colours.
Again, they only put it in that level because this game is a tribute to Sonic's history. At least I'm glad they used the least gimmicky Wisp to give Sonic what is essentially a superjump. The spike Wisp was a bit more annoying because of puzzles requiring the player to stick to certain places.
Rail grinding is not a whole new game mechanic, it integrates with Sonic's 3D movements fairly intuitively and grind rails were a very important component to 3D Sonic games since SA2.
I have no idea where 'high-speed segments' come into Generations. Are you comparing boosting to mach speed sections?
One done entirely on the decision of the player and the other forced on the player, punishing them with death / rings should they touch a wall / obsctacle?
There aren't any mach speed section in Generations.

I pointed out the bolded, but the lack of control is pretty much the only real difference. Furthermore, the only way to control it is to break speed. Which means hitting the breaks for no reason. Furthermore, the way that level is designed if you could break speed and accidentally did you would fall into a pit and die. It's the same reasoning you use for wisp. What does being able to stop your self from a speed boost that only allows strafing left or right even add anyway?

I'm glad you dislike free-fall. . .Now for grinding, they're important because they're thrown in their. What exactly do they add? t least parkour you have a new way to platform. Grinding is literally just sonic grinding on a rail, that's it.

13) Okay, what I said previously DEFINITELY applies here: "If past games made a mistake, that's not justification for this game to make the same mistake".
Let me copy / paste this here quoting you: "Most of the time though it's standard sonic fare. If these play-styles are a problem they are because of previous games not specifically Lost World." so you don't call this a strawman.
You are attempting to justify this game's mistakes because previous games made the same mistake.
That is poor justification

15 A) I think I was referring to "Do you notice that this game uses alot of playstyles of older sonics. I think that's the justification. That's what they were going for.
"
I just said that that's not a good justification.
Even then, I forgot to comment on how that statement is wrong.

That's not a justification. I stated that if you dislike these mechanics in general why are you taking issue with them specifically through lost world. Because they are here due to being in older games. I never said they were good because of that. C asked me if I thought the flying stage was good, because it was based on Sky Chase zone and I said no. So, I have no clue what you're going on about here.

14) I'm not getting what you're asking. I've explained my stance on this subject. If you'd like, I can repeat myself.
There is zero reason for this game to have both 2D AND 3D in the same game. you're altering the level layout and feel of the game for no reason.
This adds to the problem of this game having absolutely no idea what it wants to do. It cannot decide between 2D and 3D.
Pick one style and flesh it out to make a memorable game. We have yet to have a truly great 3D Sonic game because SEGA cannot make up its mind on what it wants Sonic to do.
Even if you say "it's taking inspiration from old Sonic games", that excuse doesn't work because that's why Sonic Generations exists. This is a new Sonic game, we can do without the pandering when that's what the last game was dedicated to.
This game is already littered with gimmicks, and it cannot even decide which dimension it game should stick on.

I don't understand this logic, if one game uses older mechanics therefore no other game can? What?

Furthermore, that's wrong it's not just generations that had this unleashed had it as well but they transition within the game. Colors even more so! None of which are retro pandering or nostalgia pandering games.

15 B)Sonic's very act of MOVEMENT has been altered with the addition of a run button.
The gimmicks are all new outside of mach speed and some wisps (which handle differently because forced gimmick controls).

And:

Freefall
Wisp
Pinball in casino
Grinding
Sky-Chase Zone remix
2-D/3-D levels

None of those are new. But, feel free to name all the new mechanics. I only see two from you: Fruit blender and snowball.

This is perhaps the furthest I've seen Sonic stray from the formula in a main Sonic game. Just having badniks, a spindash, Eggman and rings doesn't make a Sonic game a Sonic game.
That stuff's only face level. What makes a Sonic game a Sonic game is the emphasis on momentum based platforming and its signature level design.

No, it's not. Adventure is the furthest they've strayed. You just think that because you've taken issue with this game whether you admit it or not.

16) Putting what in?

The aforementioned game-play elements.

18) Which is like Generations, which was intuitive and worked well. I brought that point up because I'm watching 4 people who played the game before and they're saying "Why is the rail hop from Adventure 2 / Generations gone? Why are we manually jumping from rail to rail like in '06?"

In the 3ds version iirc correctly you can jump from rail to rail. If not then that is a bad change I agree.

19) Dialed back exploration is no bueno. That's the stuff that made great Sonic games like Sonic 3 + K legendary.

Well, it's probably a shift in focus from exploration to platforming. I prefer platforming tbh. But, I see your point.

Last Edit: Dec 27, 2014 16:10:32 GMT -5 by JACK-2

gurpwnder
C-Tier

Posts: 375

Sonic the Hedgehog Discussion and Comparisons Dec 27, 2014 18:33:00 GMT -5

Quote

Post by gurpwnder on Dec 27, 2014 18:33:00 GMT -5

Dec 27, 2014 16:02:09 GMT -5 JACK-2 said:

1)

Not if you're giving games that have the same gameplay elements as lost world a pass all while criticizing Lost World for having said elements. That's bias tbh.

2)

The question I asked was what does it improve on? Why do we need it? We had other speed mechanics and having time trails package dealed into it doesn't make boost a good mechanic. That just means it's there with other type of mechanics added in. You could easily make time trails with other mechanics such as spin-dash at the end of the day. "It's not permanent" So, what? You gain it very easily and it's invincible when you're using it against many enemies. You're essentially stating that since it's not broken it's a great mechanic. That's silly.

3)

Not all wisp are motion controlled, though. At the end of the day you've change suits to debating how wisps are controlled. You seemed to be arguing wisp were gimmicky in general in Lost World but somehow not in Colors because they're motion controlled. It comes off as frivolous.

4)

Interesting. Weren't you complaining about lack of tutorials earlier for simple mechanics like parkour? In previous sonic games can you point to tutorials or any early warning systems that indicate when these gaps are coming as you move at high speeds so you know they were there in the first place to clear them? We didn't even get bottomless pit indicators until generations. We had to pick it up intuitively via trial and era. Yet, why isn't this an issue with you? Lost world gives us a margin of era, but that's bad. But, when other sonic games gives us nothing that's good? All at the same-time we need tutorials?

5)

Fair enough, imo they should make it so that you build gradually speed by running like in previous sonic games rather than going into a perpetual jog.

6)

I agree with this. The parkour button should make still be a run button, but sonic should still be able to run as he builds momentum. Agree'd.

7)

Well of course you have more time if you run than if you walk. But, more time for something sooo slow? If you feel more comfortable with speed you can actually jump and tap the run button. Seriously that part is so freaking easy. There's no thinking necessary that guy just sucked and blamed the game. You would have no problem with it whatsoever.

8)

Yes, but the parkour system is far less impeded by bottomless pits or platforming in general. As I stated in point number 1. While traditional sonic will often require the player to hit the brakes and break his momentum. Infact, the aforementioned segment would also require him to break speed if it were in a classic sonic game. Likewise, during a speedrun it is possible in both Classic and Lost World for a pro to maintain speed in those segments.

Overall, you've listed one instance where parkour might not be all that good while Classic sonic momentum based platforming alot of times requires you to break momentum in general. Because there are no tutorials or early warning systems that tell you about these pits and you're forced to stop short of max speed.

9)

Yes, it will stick as long as you're near a wall. Keyword being near a wall. And, as stated above even classic sonic with his traditional type of momentum would have problems building speed necessary to cross that part unless he saw it coming.

10)

What about Wisp in general, Grinding, Free falling Pinball that has been in Casino Night-zone since classic Sonic and all the game play features that have been in all these sonic games before. How are they part of the cohesive Sonic momentum based platforming when they have nothing to do with momentum based platforming? Either they are part of the package or they are not. It can't be "They are only good in games I like".

11)

I pointed out the bolded, but the lack of control is pretty much the only real difference. Furthermore, the only way to control it is to break speed. Which means hitting the breaks for no reason. Furthermore, the way that level is designed if you could break speed and accidentally did you would fall into a pit and die. It's the same reasoning you use for wisp. What does being able to stop your self from a speed boost that only allows strafing left or right even add anyway?

I'm glad you dislike free-fall. . .Now for grinding, they're important because they're thrown in their. What exactly do they add? t least parkour you have a new way to platform. Grinding is literally just sonic grinding on a rail, that's it.

12)

That's not a justification. I stated that if you dislike these mechanics in general why are you taking issue with them specifically through lost world. Because they are here due to being in older games. I never said they were good because of that. C asked me if I thought the flying stage was good, because it was based on Sky Chase zone and I said no. So, I have no clue what you're going on about here.

13)

I don't understand this logic, if one game uses older mechanics therefore no other game can? What?

Furthermore, that's wrong it's not just generations that had this unleashed had it as well but they transition within the game. Colors even more so! None of which are retro pandering or nostalgia pandering games.

14)

And:

Freefall
Wisp
Pinball in casino
Grinding
Sky-Chase Zone remix
2-D/3-D levels

None of those are new. But, feel free to name all the new mechanics. I only see two from you: Fruit blender and snowball.

15)

No, it's not. Adventure is the furthest they've strayed. You just think that because you've taken issue with this game whether you admit it or not.

16)

The aforementioned game-play elements.

17)

In the 3ds version iirc correctly you can jump from rail to rail. If not then that is a bad change I agree.

18)

Well, it's probably a shift in focus from exploration to platforming. I prefer platforming tbh. But, I see your point.

1) I'm not being bias. I haven't even given Colours a serious discussion at all. If you want to start a Colours discussion after this, then sure, I'll rag on that game's faults too. I'm only concerned about Lost World and why I feel that its a failure right now. Trying not to get too sidetracked over here. If it makes you feel happy, I don't like Sonic Colors' Wisps. They don't add to the momentum based platforming in meaningful ways. I heard that the game is only about 2 hours long, which is a bit of a shame. I really don't like that 80% of Sonic colours is 2D and only 20% of the game is 2D. The 3D Sonic parts in Unleashed were a great starting point and I don't think the right thing to do was to drop 3D as much as possible. I can see WHY the game has 2D. At the point Sonic Colours was released, Sega was desperately trying to restore faith in its franchise. We've seen THREE games with just Sonic running, jumping, with no friends, etc. Sonic 4, Colors AND Generations. Is this a good excuse? No, I still don't like the direction they chose for Colours regardless of the reasoning behind them.

I will say that I'm not understanding your defensive triggers. I'm discussing Lost World. Why do you want me to shit on Colours? Why do you want me to shit on Adventure 1 or 2? I can (and probably will), but that's irrelevant to this discussion, which is about Sonic Lost World. Let's stick to the topic.

PS, I have already outright said that Wisps are shitty in Colours in a previous post too. What 'free pass' you're talking about is beyond me.

2) I've already said what it improves on: the experience of the game. The cartoons, classic and Adventure titles would show Sonic running at breakneck speeds, but we the players never actually got to experience that speed while running at Sonic's top speed. The closest they could get was to spin dash. The idea of boost gives players the ability to experience the games and feel more 'Sonic-like'. We can control Sonic 100% while he's sprinting at truly breakneck speeds. I've discussed Unleashed with my friend, and we both dislike how there's nothing to do in the game, since you can just boost through the game and the game is lacking platforming challenges, it makes me feel like a spectator rather than a player. I cannot deny the fact that this game is the fastest Sonic's ever been during gameplay, so its at least a thrilling experience and the closest we'll ever get to feeling like Sonic.

3) I said 'lost world wisps are gimmicks'. You said 'they were in colours too'. I said 'yes. they were gimmicky in colours, but they control worse here because now the controls themselves are gimmicky.' Do I like Wisps at all? No. I don't want to fly slowly using a blimp. I don't want to drill underground at all. I just want to run and jump.

4) Generations (and maybe Colours and 4 as well) actually show the player any bottomless pits with a bright orange diamond shaped sign of Sonic dying). Here: img2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20130513212414/sonic/images/8/8e/Bottomless_Pit_warning_in_Sonic_Generations.png so that point is moot.

5 and 6) Good. We finally agree that the controls are ass. Kind of a major flaw.

7) Well, whatever. Screw that example, we agree that the controls are shit. That's all I wanted to do. The reason I mentioned that example to begin with was because it was a visual example of Sonic dying due to parkour controls. If I didn't even need that example, that's great. Screw it.

8) Again, this is going back to 5) and 6). The fact that I have to compensate for the parkour button in Lost World means that I, as the player, am forced to compensate for a non-functional control scheme. I am working around a failure of the game in Lost World.

How do you know when to stop in the classic titles? Simple. You see the end of the platform you're running on. You don't move so fast that you cannot react to the to the end of a platform. Also 4) in modern titles.

9) Discussed in 5, 6 and 7).

10) The problem with Lost World is the sheer number and frequency. Sonic Colours had wisps as its gimmick. That's it. Sonic Lost World has more Wisps than Colours, which are even less functional than the ones in Colours (Bomb Wisp?! Musical Wisp?!), AND maps them to gimmicky controls whereas Colours could all be done with a GC controller.
Sonic Adventure's gimmicks for Sonic were casino and racecar levels.
Sonic Unleashed's gimmick was the werehog. That's it. It may have shown up a lot, but it was a single gimmick. Was it good? Nope.
I'm not sure if Sonic in Adventure 2 had gimmicks outside of a racecar level? Was there even a racecar level?

In Lost World, we have flight level gimmicks, a stealth section gimmick, fruit blender gimmicks, a hella lotta wisps, snowball section, a darkness section that removes your ability to target anything and requires you to to pull a switch, a pinball section, a freefall section, cylindrical level design, mach speed, and some more that I'm forgetting ALL IN ONE GAME AS SONIC. Relax with the damned gimmicks, SEGA.

If I pick Sonic in Adventure 1. I am running and jumping for 99% of the game. For 2 minutes in a casino level, I am in a pinball section and I think the car racing level is optional.

See the difference?

11) Well, a major difference being that touching a wall in mach speed = death while touching a wall while boosting makes Sonic come to a dead halt. There's that. There's also the fact that Sonic while running normally handles very similarly (but is not nearly as fast) as boosting Sonic. The modern Sonic game is that style. Mach speed is a temporary change of pace which is over, then controls change again. You go from pressing left turning you 90 degrees in normal gameplay to left just shifting left while in mach speed. Again, the entire modern Sonic gameplay is that one control scheme.

I have no idea about the fascination with grind rails in 3D Sonic. They just temporarily automatically make Sonic move forward. Not a big difference.

12) I'm only discussing Lost World at length here. If you want me to criticize Adventure 1 and 2, I'll do so after this game. Hell, I even criticized Adventure 2's shitty gameplay in this very thread.

13) I'm just saying that this accentuates the identity crisis that this game has. As a Sonic fan, I'm tired of all these 2D sections. I want to see a 3D game done well. I want it to be 100% of the focus of the game and I want it to be done well.

14) I refuse to acknowledge flying levels as a Sonic 2 tribute when there exists a level with the Tornado. That will always remain a Sonic Lost World shitty gimmick to me. The difference isn't the fact that other games have done it, it's how much shit this game has.

15) Oh HELL no, girrrrrl. Adventure 1 Sonic is actually very close to the 2D Sonics when translated to a 3 dimensional world. You move in a similar fashion, with analogue control VS digital, you can do everything you can do in the classic Sonic games except elemental shield bonuses. The spindash needed to be changed, since Sonic can no longer crouch (you can't hold down because there's a Z axis now), so it's mapped to an action button. Pressing the action button while running can cause Sonic to roll as well. We've added a homing attack for precision attacks on enemies to keep the flow going. I think there are 2 gimmicks in Adventure 1: pinball and bumper cars.

Likewise, Tails and Knuckles handle VERY similarly. I can nitpick about Knuckles attacks, but that's really about it.

The differences are Gamma, Big and Amy, who suck ass and have no reason to be in the game. Because these 3 exist, I can only say that I enjoy 50% of Sonic Adventure and that only 50% of the game works well in a Sonic the Hedgehog setting.

Lost World, we have a multitude of gimmicks, Sonic has a run button for the first time in his life. You have changed the very way Sonic MOVES in this game. That's MASSIVE. This is the only have with ledge grabbing, parkour (ABSOLUTELY MASSIVE CHANGE), one of two with double jumps (the other being Colours). Can you even roll in this game? You've changed the homing attack's uses and activation. You've added as an alternate kick attack to this game and enemies that can only be defeated via this new kick attack. You've added the ability for Sonic to hang onto ceilings with vines on them (see the slip I linked) and probably more that I'm forgetting, like how powerups are implemented and others.

(@ 9:45)

How're you seriously going to tell me that Lost World isn't more radically different than Adventure 1? I'm really the biased one here? Iunno man...

16) I completely forgot what we were talking about here

17) Well, considering how poor the rest of the game is, I wouldn't doubt it.

18) Good. We agree that this game shits all over good Sonic level design.

Let me know if I glossed over any of your points. Enjoy.

Last Edit: Dec 27, 2014 18:48:17 GMT -5 by gurpwnder

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JACK-2
Paragon

Posts: 5,352

Sonic the Hedgehog Discussion and Comparisons Dec 27, 2014 20:02:42 GMT -5

Quote

Post by JACK-2 on Dec 27, 2014 20:02:42 GMT -5

1) I'm not being bias. I haven't even given Colours a serious discussion at all. If you want to start a Colours discussion after this, then sure, I'll rag on that game's faults too. I'm only concerned about Lost World and why I feel that its a failure right now. Trying not to get too sidetracked over here.

Talking about another sonic games relative to this one is not "Getting side tracked". You've already criticized the mechanics of this game, but they appear in other Sonic games and originate there. Yet, you give them a pass like generations. You told me that being in past games doesn't justify a mechanic existence in another. I agree, so, what justifies these mechanics being in other sonic games? If they are bad, no amount of retro pandering or references justifies their inclusion. You've stated at the fore front that you dislike a handful of them. So, the other sonic games that have them are just as bad. You can't single out lost world.

If it makes you feel happy, I don't like Sonic Colors' Wisps. They don't add to the momentum based platforming in meaningful ways. I heard that the game is only about 2 hours long, which is a bit of a shame. I really don't like that 80% of Sonic colours is 2D and only 20% of the game is 2D. The 3D Sonic parts in Unleashed were a great starting point and I don't think the right thing to do was to drop 3D as much as possible. I can see WHY the game has 2D. At the point Sonic Colours was released, Sega was desperately trying to restore faith in its franchise. We've seen THREE games with just Sonic running, jumping, with no friends, etc. Sonic 4, Colors AND Generations. Is this a good excuse? No, I still don't like the direction they chose for Colours regardless of the reasoning behind them.

No, we do not have three games with Sonic just doing that? All those mechanics are in generations as well. It doesn't matter if they are there because Sega wanted to reference older games. They are still there, the reason doesn't excuse them. You like generations and yet it has many of the same mechanics that Lost World has. But, you excuse it because it's older games. Ironically, you accused me of doing the samething.

I will say that I'm not understanding your defensive triggers. I'm discussing Lost World. Why do you want me to shit on Colours? Why do you want me to shit on Adventure 1 or 2? I can (and probably will), but that's irrelevant to this discussion, which is about Sonic Lost World. Let's stick to the topic.

PS, I have already outright said that Wisps are shitty in Colours in a previous post too. What 'free pass' you're talking about is beyond me.

Defensive triggers, please. . .You brought up Adventure not me. Now you're saying I can't bring up colors when I stated that these mechanics are from games like colors and the reason why that is relevant is because we are discussing Lost Worlds status as a sonic game. Generations has the same mechanics and you told me that being in past games doesn't justify a mechanic existence in another. So, once again: what justifies these mechanics being in other sonic games? If they are bad, no amount of retro pandering or references justifies their inclusion. You've stated at the fore front that you dislike a handful of them. So, the other sonic games that have them are just as bad. You can't single out lost world once again.

2) I've already said what it improves on: the experience of the game. The cartoons, classic and Adventure titles would show Sonic running at breakneck speeds, but we the players never actually got to experience that speed while running at Sonic's top speed.The closest they could get was to spin dash. The idea of boost gives players the ability to experience the games and feel more 'Sonic-like'. We can control Sonic 100% while he's sprinting at truly breakneck speeds. I've discussed Unleashed with my friend, and we both dislike how there's nothing to do in the game, since you can just boost through the game and the game is lacking platforming challenges, it makes me feel like a spectator rather than a player. I cannot deny the fact that this game is the fastest Sonic's ever been during gameplay, so its at least a thrilling experience and the closest we'll ever get to feeling like Sonic.

Well, okay. I get that it feels fast. But lets look at how it affects game-play? Sonic already has multiple ways to accelerate in game. He can spin-dash, he can hold forward until he accelerates into a running speed, Speed shoes powered up and he has loopty loops, spring boost. All those aforementioned acceleration devices have conditions such as start up time or level placement. Furthermore, level design augments sonic speed and add functionality to it. Boost ont he other hand streamlines everything. Loopty loops which once had functionality since they made sonic accelerate faster as he enters them are worthless because he doesn't need their momentum due too boost. They're purely aesthetically now. Spin-dash? Gone. Speed ramps are now an addendum of boost. Which he doesn't even need. As much as boost feels fast, it ruins the gameplay and the momentum is too fast to platform correctly unless you know the layout of the stage.

3) I said 'lost world wisps are gimmicks'. You said 'they were in colours too'. I said 'yes. they were gimmicky in colours, but they control worse here because now the controls themselves are gimmicky.' Do I like Wisps at all? No. I don't want to fly slowly using a blimp. I don't want to drill underground at all. I just want to run and jump.

Actually, you don't control the wisp through motion controls but with the analog minus certain wisp. Half the wisp in lost world are from colors and control the same. Just so were clear.

4) Generations (and maybe Colours and 4 as well) actually show the player any bottomless pits with a bright orange diamond shaped sign of Sonic dying). Here: img2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20130513212414/sonic/images/8/8e/Bottomless_Pit_warning_in_Sonic_Generations.png so that point is moot.

Colors doesn't show you, but I know generations shows it. My point was if an indicator was always necessary then why was it not introduced in sonic one? Lost world doesn't have indicators. So, it makes sense to have a ledge grab if your not gonna have indicators otherwise why have them if it was never an issue? Clearly it was.

7) Well, whatever. Screw that example, we agree that the controls are shit. That's all I wanted to do. The reason I mentioned that example to begin with was because it was a visual example of Sonic dying due to parkour controls. If I didn't even need that example, that's great. Screw it.

8) Again, this is going back to 5) and 6). The fact that I have to compensate for the parkour button in Lost World means that I, as the player, am forced to compensate for a non-functional control scheme. I am working around a failure of the game in Lost World.

I agree, that sonic should be able to enter a run with enough forward momentum like he always has. I don;t agree with your example still. You don't really have to compensate for anything. Because you literally did not need it, he never needed it to clear that part.

How do you know when to stop in the classic titles? Simple. You see the end of the platform you're running on. You don't move so fast that you cannot react to the to the end of a platform. Also 4) in modern titles.

Nope, because at that speed when you jump if you're moving onto a floating platform which are often small. Sonic will move too fast too slowdown and fall right off. He's literally moving so fast that if he clears a platform at high-speeds it's very difficult to control his landing into a floating platform. If it's just solid ground then no prob. But, smaller platforms that are in the air? Nope.

The problem with Lost World is the sheer number and frequency. Sonic Colours had wisps as its gimmick. That's it. Sonic Lost World has more Wisps than Colours, which are even less functional than the ones in Colours (Bomb Wisp?! Musical Wisp?!), AND maps them to gimmicky controls whereas Colours could all be done with a GC controller.

Colors had 2-D/3-D switch you complained about, there's only one more wisp in Sonic Lost world then in colors. Colors series had 10 wisp lost world series has 11. They aren't less functional at all, infact they are more so. Rocket in Lost World is soo much better in Lost world because the level layout allowed you to choose where on the stage you wanted to go versus colors where you just went really really high up. Laser also improved with the cylindrical level design since you can now move with the contours of the level same with Drill. The level design in Lost World works much better with Wisp than in colors.

Useless Wisps? Colors had frenzy which is no different than Rhythm. I argue Lost World has much better wisps.

Sonic Adventure's gimmicks for Sonic were casino and racecar levels.
Sonic Unleashed's gimmick was the werehog. That's it. It may have shown up a lot, but it was a single gimmick. Was it good? Nope.
I'm not sure if Sonic in Adventure 2 had gimmicks outside of a racecar level? Was there even a racecar level?

And, Bigs fishing, Knuckles Gem search and E-103 which had nothing to do with speed. Nevermind amys. Many of which came back in Adventure 2. Unleashed had once again: 3-D/2-D variance just like colors, Free-falling, grinding, etc

In Lost World, we have flight level gimmicks, a stealth section gimmick, fruit blender gimmicks, a hella lotta wisps, snowball section, a darkness section that removes your ability to target anything and requires you to to pull a switch, a pinball section, a freefall section, cylindrical level design, mach speed, and some more that I'm forgetting ALL IN ONE GAME AS SONIC. Relax with the damned gimmicks, SEGA.

Stealth level is from Sonic 3 launch base zone where if you pass a certain area an enemy comes, 1 more wisp than colors is not hella lot, Free-fall is from Unleashed and is in generations and colors, Mach speed is from 06, Darkness is from Sonic 3 and the underground pyramid and so forth. Still only snowball and fruit blender after all.

If I pick Sonic in Adventure 1. I am running and jumping for 99% of the game. For 2 minutes in a casino level, I am in a pinball section and I think the car racing level is optional.

See the difference?

What?

Did you forget about knuckles, Big, Amy and E-102 gameplay? None of those are high speeds at all. They're barely platforming.

11) Well, a major difference being that touching a wall in mach speed = death while touching a wall while boosting makes Sonic come to a dead halt. There's that. There's also the fact that Sonic while running normally handles very similarly (but is not nearly as fast) as boosting Sonic. The modern Sonic game is that style. Mach speed is a temporary change of pace which is over, then controls change again. You go from pressing left turning you 90 degrees in normal gameplay to left just shifting left while in mach speed. Again, the entire modern Sonic gameplay is that one control scheme.

Which makes it more challenging. If death is the result meanwhile boost just causes sonic to slow down. But, if you prefer boost that is fine. I just better not hear you complaining about ledge grabs making platforming too easy but you're okay with boost making those mach speed-esque sections easier.

I have no idea about the fascination with grind rails in 3D Sonic. They just temporarily automatically make Sonic move forward. Not a big difference.

They're superfluous though. They literally add nothing minus the all grind levels.

12) I'm only discussing Lost World at length here. If you want me to criticize Adventure 1 and 2, I'll do so after this game. Hell, I even criticized Adventure 2's shitty gameplay in this very thread.

Well, I'm discussing sonic as a whole and since this discussion is about how Lost world fails as a sonic game. We have to look at what makess a good sonic game and compare. So, that includes other sonic games.

14) I refuse to acknowledge flying levels as a Sonic 2 tribute when there exists a level with the Tornado. That will always remain a Sonic Lost World shitty gimmick to me. The difference isn't the fact that other games have done it, it's how much shit this game has.

That level isn't even 3-D and this one has the same enemy types as well. I don't get the relation of it being shitty and acknowledging it. It's a tribute even if it's shit.

Last Edit: Dec 27, 2014 20:47:05 GMT -5 by JACK-2

JACK-2
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Posts: 5,352

Sonic the Hedgehog Discussion and Comparisons Dec 27, 2014 20:10:43 GMT -5

Quote

Post by JACK-2 on Dec 27, 2014 20:10:43 GMT -5

15) Oh HELL no, girrrrrl. Adventure 1 Sonic is actually very close to the 2D Sonics when translated to a 3 dimensional world. You move in a similar fashion, with analogue control VS digital, you can do everything you can do in the classic Sonic games except elemental shield bonuses. The spindash needed to be changed, since Sonic can no longer crouch (you can't hold down because there's a Z axis now), so it's mapped to an action button. Pressing the action button while running can cause Sonic to roll as well. We've added a homing attack for precision attacks on enemies to keep the flow going. I think there are 2 gimmicks in Adventure 1: pinball and bumper cars.

Did you play Adventure? Two gimmicks lol. Did you forget about how bad the non-sonic gameplay you were forced to play?

Likewise, Tails and Knuckles handle VERY similarly. I can nitpick about Knuckles attacks, but that's really about it.

Knuckles levels delegated you to exploring for gems. It was terrible.

The differences are Gamma, Big and Amy, who suck ass and have no reason to be in the game. Because these 3 exist, I can only say that I enjoy 50% of Sonic Adventure and that only 50% of the game works well in a Sonic the Hedgehog setting.

Knuckles sucked as well. Here's another opinion on Sonic Adventure that sums up how I feel:

Sonic Adventure 2 is a horrible game. No more no less. Controls are só awful, it's ridiculous. Yes, it's better than Sonic Adventure (imo), Sonic Heroes (imo), and Sonic 2006 (fact), but that's because those games are even worse, somehow.

The only reason people would like any of these 4 games, is because they're Sonic fans. Any serious gamer, with a shred of objectivity, knows these games are absolute crap. The lack of polish and quality is inexplicable for a franchise this big. Super Mario 64 is even older, still plays like a dream to this day.

I own every main Sonic game and I've beaten them all. But the first 4 3D Sonic games are a travesty. Unleashed is half a travesty, half a mixed bag of good ideas and terrible execution. Colours and Generations were genuinely good imo. Lost World I'm yet to play.

In the end, I honestly believe Sonic Team is one of the worst developers in videogame history, although Colours and Generations at least saves them a bit. The 5 3D games that came before play horribly. They can say, "we didn't have enough time in production". But that still doesn't excuse them from the fact that half the ideas they introduce are friggin' terrible, and even with polished control, it'd still suck. I honestly believe the Werehog in Unleashed is quite possibly the single worst idea in videogame history. The idea itself makes no sense. It's one of the slowest moving platformers in what should be the fastest moving platformer. And then the execution of it is awful as well.

My problem is that Sonic, despite being a big franchise, controlled like those horribly cheap 3D platformers. Take for example the Futurama videogame. Its storyline is hilarious, it's gameplay wasn't really important and quickly thrown together. But even THAT game controls better than Sonic. I still can't get my head around how they ruined this franchise so much. At least the last few years have been promising for a revival.
---

Lost World, we have a multitude of gimmicks, Sonic has a run button for the first time in his life. You have changed the very way Sonic MOVES in this game. That's MASSIVE. This is the only have with ledge grabbing, parkour (ABSOLUTELY MASSIVE CHANGE), one of two with double jumps (the other being Colours). Can you even roll in this game? You've changed the homing attack's uses and activation. You've added as an alternate kick attack to this game and enemies that can only be defeated via this new kick attack. You've added the ability for Sonic to hang onto ceilings with vines on them (see the slip I linked) and probably more that I'm forgetting, like how powerups are implemented and others.

Yeah, they changed the amount of options you have with homing attack and made a run button. That's really it, no big deal. The only thing I would want is acceleration without the run button.

(@ 9:45)

How're you seriously going to tell me that Lost World isn't more radically different than Adventure 1? I'm really the biased one here? Iunno man...

Adventure forced 3 characters that have the absolute worst gameplay mechanics in all of sonic history. bar none.

This guy again, listen if you wanna take his review seriously. That's fine, but after that crushing stone part I won't bother taking anything he says seriously. That part were sonic was traveling across the monkey bars and this moron says [It doesn't feel like a sonic game] was from Flying Battery Zone. So, I have no clue what he's talking about.

Last Edit: Dec 27, 2014 21:39:16 GMT -5 by JACK-2

gurpwnder
C-Tier

Posts: 375

Sonic the Hedgehog Discussion and Comparisons Dec 27, 2014 21:52:51 GMT -5

Quote

Post by gurpwnder on Dec 27, 2014 21:52:51 GMT -5

Dec 27, 2014 20:02:42 GMT -5 JACK-2 said:

1)

Talking about another sonic games relative to this one is not "Getting side tracked". You've already criticized the mechanics of this game, but they appear in other Sonic games and originate there. Yet, you give them a pass like generations. You told me that being in past games doesn't justify a mechanic existence in another. I agree, so, what justifies these mechanics being in other sonic games? If they are bad, no amount of retro pandering or references justifies their inclusion. You've stated at the fore front that you dislike a handful of them. So, the other sonic games that have them are just as bad. You can't single out lost world.

2)

No, we do not have three games with Sonic just doing that? All those mechanics are in generations as well. It doesn't matter if they are there because Sega wanted to reference older games. They are still there, the reason doesn't excuse them. You like generations and yet it has many of the same mechanics that Lost World has. But, you excuse it because it's older games. Ironically, you accused me of doing the samething.

3)

Defensive triggers, please. . .You brought up Adventure not me. Now you're saying I can't bring up colors when I stated that these mechanics are from games like colors and the reason why that is relevant is because we are discussing Lost Worlds status as a sonic game. Generations has the same mechanics and you told me that being in past games doesn't justify a mechanic existence in another. So, once again: what justifies these mechanics being in other sonic games? If they are bad, no amount of retro pandering or references justifies their inclusion. You've stated at the fore front that you dislike a handful of them. So, the other sonic games that have them are just as bad. You can't single out lost world once again.

4)

Well, okay. I get that it feels fast. But lets look at how it affects game-play? Sonic already has multiple ways to accelerate in game. He can spin-dash, he can hold forward until he accelerates into a running speed, Speed shoes powered up and he has loopty loops, spring boost. All those aforementioned acceleration devices have conditions such as start up time or level placement. Furthermore, level design augments sonic speed and add functionality to it. Boost ont he other hand streamlines everything. Loopty loops which once had functionality since they made sonic accelerate faster as he enters them are worthless because he doesn't need their momentum due too boost. They're purely aesthetically now. Spin-dash? Gone. Speed ramps are now an addendum of boost. Which he doesn't even need. As much as boost feels fast, it ruins the gameplay and the momentum is too fast to platform correctly unless you know the layout of the stage.

5)

Actually, you don't control the wisp through motion but with the analog minus certain wisp. Gravity and Electric are controlled via analog stick. Just so were clear.

6)

Colors doesn't show you, but I know generations shows it. My point was if an indicator was always necessary then why was it not introduced in sonic one? Lost world doesn't have indicators. So, it makes sense to have a ledge grab if your not gonna have indicators otherwise why have them if it was never an issue? Clearly it was.

7)

I agree, that sonic should be able to enter a run with enough forward momentum like he always has. I don;t agree with your example still. You don't really have to compensate for anything. Because you literally did not need it, he never needed it to clear that part.

8)

Nope, because at that speed when you jump if you're moving onto a floating platform which are often small. Sonic will move too fast too slowdown and fall right off. He's literally moving so fast that if he clears a platform at high-speeds it's very difficult to control his landing into a floating platform. If it's just solid ground then no prob. But, smaller platforms that are in the air? Nope.

9)

Colors had 2-D/3-D switch you complained about, there's only one more wisp in Sonic Lost world then in colors. Colors series had 10 wisp lost world series has 11. They aren't less functional at all, I mean colors had frenzy which served no purpose what so ever, Laser which required you to aim awkwardly at these stupid crystals tacked on just for that part. They don't all use the motion control either: Indigo nor Ivory do. So, yeah.

10)

And, Bigs fishing, Knuckles Gem search and E-103 which had nothing to do with speed. Nevermind amys. Many of which came back in Adventure 2. Unleashed had once again: 3-D/2-D variance just like colors, Free-falling, grinding, etc

11)

Stealth level is from Sonic 3 launch base zone where if you pass a certain area an enemy comes, 1 more wisp than colors is not hella lot, Free-fall is from Unleashed and is in generations and colors, Mach speed is from 06, Darkness is from Sonic 3 and the underground pyramid and so forth. Still only snowball and fruit blender after all.

12)

What?

Did you forget about knuckles, Big, Amy and E-102 gameplay? None of those are high speeds at all. They're barely platforming.

13)

Which makes it more challenging. If death is the result meanwhile boost just causes sonic to slow down. But, if you prefer boost that is fine. I just better not hear you complaining about ledge grabs making platforming too easy but you're okay with boost making those mach speed-esque sections easier.

14)

They're superfluous though. They literally add nothing minus the all grind levels.

15)

Well, I'm discussing sonic as a whole and since this discussion is about how Lost world fails as a sonic game. We have to look at what makess a good sonic game and compare. So, that includes other sonic games.

16)

That level isn't even 3-D and this one has the same enemy types as well. I don't get the relation of it being shitty and acknowledging it. It's a tribute even if it's shit.

1) Yeah, I compare to other games, but I'm not discussing those games in their own right. If I say 'Colours Wisps were less gimmicky because of non-motion / touchscreen controls', that's not a free pass for Colours. That just means Colours is less shit than Lost World in that respect. I've mentioned already how I think Unleashed, Colours and Generations didn't need 2D modern Sonic (thought Generations would not have had 2D modern Sonic had Unleashed and Colours not had it either). I've mentioned that Colours' Wisps were gimmicky as hell, and scrutinized it for some other reasons. I've mentioned that Unleashed makes the player feel like a spectator because it doesn't require much from the player at all. I've mentioned that Adventure 1 and 2 have shoddy alternate characters who suck and detract from the game. I don't see what I'm giving a free pass to. Of course I'm going to rail on Lost World harder because that game is the focus of this discussion.

2) "Many of the same things as Generations" is REALLY stretching it considering how vastly different the games are. Sonic can jump. Master Chief can jump. I wouldn't directly compare those characters just because of such a minor similarity. Same with Lost World and Generations. They both freefall, they both spindash

3) Lost world has a whole mountain of problems, taking several from other games. Sure, they detract from the likes of Colours, Adventure, A2, Unleashed, Generations, etc, but not to the extent that they do here.

4) How do you compensate? Good level design. Have the player search the level for the fastest possible route.

5)
Bomb Wisp - tilt gamepad.
Music Wisp - touch gamepad.
Eagle Wisp - tilt gamepad.
Drill Wisp - touch gamepad. Can use analogue stick.
Laser Wisp - touch gamepad. Can use analogue stick.
Asteroid Wisp - tilt gamepad.
Hover Wisp - no idea. I don't think this one uses traditional controls.
Rocket Wisp - tilt gamepad.

Vast majority? Gimmick controls. Done.

6) They added in ledge grabbing because of parkour methinks. This is the only game with parkour. This is the only game with ledge grabbing.

7) Do you know WHY we're debating about whether we should walk or run in that area? Because the argument started with "He died because he stuck to the wall". He was killed by the game's shoddy controls. That's all that example highlights.
It was meant to show that there is a clear confusion about the game mapping the run button and the parkour to the same button.

8) Difficult, but doable while boosting. Just don't boost there and the jumps are easy-peasy. You just jump off immediately after setting foot on the platform and you're doing some high speed platforming.

As you can see, the game makes concessions. There are small walls along most small platforms so that you don't bolt right off if you're at an angle.

9) See 5). Sure, 2/8 = 25%. 25% of the wisps are controllable with traditional controls. Hooray?

10) I'm comparing Sonic VS Sonic. If I pick Sonic in Sonic Adventure, I can be sure that I'm doing 2 things: running and jumping. I play Lost World and I have no idea what the hell I'm going to do every other level.
Yes, Big, Amy and Gamma exist. They shouldn't. Neither should snowballing, freefall 2D levels, owl stealth section, darkness section, 2D / 3D split, fruit blender gimmicks, wisps, and more.
The other games had some of these mistakes, but Lost World has learned absolutely NOTHING from these mistakes and continues to repeat them, making them more frustrating.
I don't see the hate against Emerald Hunting, it makes a good degree of sense to me. Due to Knuckles' ability to glide AND climb walls, He wouldn't fit in straight platforming sections like speed highway. It makes sense for him to be in an enclosed environment. Knuckles controls almost identically to S3+K plus some new abilities.

His platforming is different, sure, but his is just focused around gliding, climbing and forced exploration.

11) You're not noticing what I want you to notice: Look at the length of that list of gimmicks. That's like 3 games worth of gimmicks stockpiled into 1.

flight level gimmicks, a stealth section gimmick, fruit blender gimmicks, a hella lotta wisps, snowball section, a darkness section that removes your ability to target anything and requires you to to pull a switch, a pinball section, a freefall section, cylindrical level design, mach speed
, 2D / 3D split. = 11

Sonic 1: None
Sonic 2: None
Sonic 3 + K: None
Sonic Adventure: Fishing, slow platforming, mech shooting, pinball and since you don't like it: Emerald hunting = 5
Sonic Adventure 2: Mech shooting, Emerald hunting = 2
Shadow the Hedgehog: Vehicle gimmicks, gun gimmicks, good VS evil gimmicks, freefall = 4
Sonic Heroes: I don't know whether to count the team aspect as a gimmick, since that's the entirety of the game. Team Blast, level up system = 2
Unleashed: Werehog, quick time events, freefall?, 2D / 3D split = 4
Colours: Wisps, freefall?, 2D / 3D split = 3
Generations: Wisps, freefall, 2D / 3D split (iffy on that, since that's the entire premise of the game) = 3
Sonic Rush: None
Sonic 06: Everything = 1 million. Tails, Knuckles, Rouge, Silver, Omega, Shadow vehicles, gems, etc.

Let me know what I glossed over, but one of these looks dramatically larger than the rest (barring '06). While those games' gimmicks played a larger role, you were only doing at most 5 different things. In this game, you're doing 11. There's a reason why I keep calling this game out for a lack of cohesiveness.

12) I'm comparing Sonic's abilities in Adventure to Sonic's abilities in Lost World. One is similar to the classic games (except translated to 3D) and the other is THE most dramatic departure from any form of Sonic I've ever seen.

13) Not getting it. Mach speed sections are temporary gimmicks. Boost gameplay is the entirety of Modern Sonic gameplay.

14) Such a shame that the main level with any sort of exploration in Adventure 2 was the grind-rail level. Not a big fan of grind rails because I'd rather be in control.

15) What makes a good Sonic game is good control, good level design with branching pathways and exploration and a focus on momentum based platforming.
Sonic Lost World has none of this. The parkour system is shit and actually interferes with gameplay and must be compensated around. The game actually cannot simply handle my desire to run.
It has the most flat level design I have ever seen in a Sonic game with minimal branching pathways.
It has no focus whatsoever hopping from gimmick to gimmick.
Therefore: Lost World is bad.

16) I just said I refuse to see it as the solitary tribute to Tornado levels. One has you freefalling in the sky with familiar badnicks. One has you in the Tornado in the sky. 2/3 for both.

Last Edit: Dec 27, 2014 21:57:15 GMT -5 by gurpwnder

SSF4: Dan
SFXT: Paul and Marshall
SF3: Sean
CVS2: Yamazaki, Ken, Joe
KOF13: Robert, Joe, Ryo
TTT2: Paul and Forest
Soul Calibur 2: Raphael
Soul Calibur 5: Raphael and Astaroth
Mortal Kombat 9: Johnny Cage
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gurpwnder
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Sonic the Hedgehog Discussion and Comparisons Dec 27, 2014 22:38:48 GMT -5

Quote

Post by gurpwnder on Dec 27, 2014 22:38:48 GMT -5

Dec 27, 2014 20:10:43 GMT -5 JACK-2 said:

1)

Did you play Adventure? Two gimmicks lol. Did you forget about how bad the non-sonic gameplay you were forced to play?

2)

Knuckles levels delegated you to exploring for gems. It was terrible.

3)

Knuckles sucked as well. Here's another opinion on Sonic Adventure that sums up how I feel:

Sonic Adventure 2 is a horrible game. No more no less. Controls are só awful, it's ridiculous. Yes, it's better than Sonic Adventure (imo), Sonic Heroes (imo), and Sonic 2006 (fact), but that's because those games are even worse, somehow.

The only reason people would like any of these 4 games, is because they're Sonic fans. Any serious gamer, with a shred of objectivity, knows these games are absolute crap. The lack of polish and quality is inexplicable for a franchise this big. Super Mario 64 is even older, still plays like a dream to this day.

I own every main Sonic game and I've beaten them all. But the first 4 3D Sonic games are a travesty. Unleashed is half a travesty, half a mixed bag of good ideas and terrible execution. Colours and Generations were genuinely good imo. Lost World I'm yet to play.

In the end, I honestly believe Sonic Team is one of the worst developers in videogame history, although Colours and Generations at least saves them a bit. The 5 3D games that came before play horribly. They can say, "we didn't have enough time in production". But that still doesn't excuse them from the fact that half the ideas they introduce are friggin' terrible, and even with polished control, it'd still suck. I honestly believe the Werehog in Unleashed is quite possibly the single worst idea in videogame history. The idea itself makes no sense. It's one of the slowest moving platformers in what should be the fastest moving platformer. And then the execution of it is awful as well.

My problem is that Sonic, despite being a big franchise, controlled like those horribly cheap 3D platformers. Take for example the Futurama videogame. Its storyline is hilarious, it's gameplay wasn't really important and quickly thrown together. But even THAT game controls better than Sonic. I still can't get my head around how they ruined this franchise so much. At least the last few years have been promising for a revival.
---

4)

Yeah, they changed the amount of options you have with homing attack and made a run button. That's really it, no big deal. The only thing I would want is acceleration without the run button.

5)

Adventure forced 3 characters that have the absolute worst gameplay mechanics in all of sonic history. bar none.

This guy again, listen if you wanna take his review seriously. That's fine, but after that crushing stone part I won't bother taking anything he says seriously. That part were sonic was traveling across the monkey bars and this moron says [It doesn't feel like a sonic game] was from Flying Battery Zone. So, I have no clue what he's talking about.

1) Yeah, most of 'em were shitty. At least when I pick Sonic, I can be sure that I'm playing Sonic. When I play Lost World, I'm playing am awkward Sonic Mario hybrid

2) I will agree that Knuckles sections were very different than Sonic, but at least I can be happy that Knux made the transition from 2D to 3D very well, with levels built around his unique abilities.

3) I'm gonna disagree and say that Adventure 1 was far superior to 2. 1 had 50% of an enjoyable game to me (Sonic, Tails and Knuckles). 2 had 33% of an okay game to me (Sonic Shadow). Sonic's levels had slightly more exploration and goodies packed within levels than 2 did, so I prefer 1's speed sections to 2's. Gamma controlled SIGNIFICANTLY better than Eggman / Tails in 2 and wasn't bombarded with cheap enemy placement either, so 1 takes the cake there. I liked Knuckles in A1 since he had more compact levels, a functional radar system and a usable help feature. A2 butchered all of these, while making Knuckles control better as a trade-off.

I like Sonic in A1 and I was indifferent to him and Shadow in A2.
I disliked Gamma and I hated Eggman / Tails in A2.
I liked Knuckles in 1, I hated him and Rouge in 2.
I liked Tails in 1
I HATED Big in 1
I disliked Amy in 1

I'm also going to say that I disagree with his stance on SEGA as a company. I'd say that while Mario has made consistently well made games that are polished and work well, I'm now more interested in Sonic than Mario. They represent 2 extremes: Mario never changes and never moves on from the past. Sonic always changes and rarely holds on to anything from the past. As weird as this may be, I would honestly rather play Lost World than Mario Galaxy 2. I feel that Mario games have no soul and won't take off the training wheels until secret / last worlds. While Mario games are objectively good games, their lack of soul and training mode through the entire game legitimately bores me. I can't play more than 4-5 levels of SM3DW in one sitting because of how unengaged I am. I may think that Sonic Adventure 2 is a poor game AND a poor Sonic game, I can respect that something interesting is happening when I play, whether it be racing to catch a rocket in a strict time limit (should you try and reach the secret top handle for a top rank), or being chased by a GUN truck.

I'll also say that Mario has been consistently good while Sonic is fluctuating between excellent and terrible. I'd say that the highs of Sonic (CD, 3+K, Generations) are excellent games which is more than I can say for Meh-rio.

4) Huge deal. That was what separated Mario from Sonic back in their beginnings. Sonic never needed a run button because players earned their momentum and used that to traverse the environment. Throughout Sonic's history, he has never needed a run button (though the boost button is very close, it too works with 'earning speed' rather than being given speed). By giving Sonic a run button, you have effectively made him considerably more Mario-like, not even counting the game's Mario-like world themes, shift in platforming style to a considerably more 'Mario like style', and CONSIDERABLE nods to Mario, especially Galaxy (bee level where you mach speed VS bee level where you slide, planet of wormlike creatures trying to bite you resembling the dragon boss from Galaxy, shooting both protagonists to a miniature spherical planet to kill a large number of the weakest goons for a reward / progression, Super Mario Bros 2 (USA) style logs going down a waterfall, etc.)

There is a reason why no other mains Sonic game in history has had a run button, to adhere to tradition.

The change to the homing attack is a radical change, since it results in the removal of badnick chains to cross gaps that every Sonic game with a homing attack has had, it also means less input from the layer as it automates and already insanely simple task of Mashing A.

The parkour system is also fairly different (not radically new, since we've seen Sonic run on vertical walls before and we've seen Sonic Wall jump in Colours), but we've never seen him bounce between walls before, scale walls, hold onto ledges, run horizontally when scaling a vertical wall, etc.

5) I was wrong about the monkey bars then, I take it back.
Tsk, tsk, such animosity. Why? I'm badmouthing the game far worse than he ever did.

SSF4: Dan
SFXT: Paul and Marshall
SF3: Sean
CVS2: Yamazaki, Ken, Joe
KOF13: Robert, Joe, Ryo
TTT2: Paul and Forest
Soul Calibur 2: Raphael
Soul Calibur 5: Raphael and Astaroth
Mortal Kombat 9: Johnny Cage
Garou: Marco Rodriguez
Bleach Dark Souls: Ganju
SSBM: Mario, Luigi, DK
SSBB: DK

JACK-2
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Posts: 5,352

Sonic the Hedgehog Discussion and Comparisons Dec 27, 2014 22:39:49 GMT -5

Quote

Post by JACK-2 on Dec 27, 2014 22:39:49 GMT -5

1) Yeah, I compare to other games, but I'm not discussing those games in their own right. If I say 'Colours Wisps were less gimmicky because of non-motion / touchscreen controls', that's not a free pass for Colours. That just means Colours is less shit than Lost World in that respect.

The gameplay elements we are discussing aren't unique to either one these games. They appear through out all the 3-D games. So, why would it matter if you're not discussing them in their own right?

Furthermore, the wisp from colors that are in lost world don't use motion control and have added functionality. Only the new wisp have motion control. So, there's that.

I've mentioned already how I think Unleashed, Colours and Generations didn't need 2D modern Sonic (thought Generations would not have had 2D modern Sonic had Unleashed and Colours not had it either). I've mentioned that Colours' Wisps were gimmicky as hell, and scrutinized it for some other reasons. I've mentioned that Unleashed makes the player feel like a spectator because it doesn't require much from the player at all. I've mentioned that Adventure 1 and 2 have shoddy alternate characters who suck and detract from the game. I don't see what I'm giving a free pass to. Of course I'm going to rail on Lost World harder because that game is the focus of this discussion.

Well, it seems like you're also railing on it harder because you like it less. You can't hate it more for doing what all the other aforementioned games are doing. But, you mentioned that you hate it because Sonic games haven't learned from their previous mistakes. If so yes, I agree.

2) "Many of the same things as Generations" is REALLY stretching it considering how vastly different the games are. Sonic can jump. Master Chief can jump. I wouldn't directly compare those characters just because of such a minor similarity. Same with Lost World and Generations. They both freefall, they both spindash

It's not stretching it at all if the gameplay objectives are exactly the same. There is no difference between the free-falling, wisp, or 3-D/2-D sections of Lost World and Generations. In this case one is a Sonic game that literally plays 90-99% the same as the other. Halo isn't even the same genre.

3) Lost world has a whole mountain of problems, taking several from other games. Sure, they detract from the likes of Colours, Adventure, A2, Unleashed, Generations, etc, but not to the extent that they do here.

Well, the difference is that there are more of these mistakes from past games and this is the total culmination of them

4) How do you compensate? Good level design. Have the player search the level for the fastest possible route.

There's no indication of what the best route is. Nothing is given telling you and good level design? You mean like flying battery or flying fortress. Try momentum based platforming on that.

5)
Bomb Wisp - tilt gamepad.
Music Wisp - touch gamepad.
Eagle Wisp - tilt gamepad.
Drill Wisp - touch gamepad. Can use analogue stick.
Laser Wisp - touch gamepad. Can use analogue stick.
Asteroid Wisp - tilt gamepad.
Hover Wisp - no idea. I don't think this one uses traditional controls.
Rocket Wisp - tilt gamepad.

Vast majority? Gimmick controls. Done.

You only touch the pad to activate it same with shaking the wii-mote to activate the wisp in colors. You control those wisp with the analogue.
Asteroid wisp doe not tilt the game pad, have no idea where you got that from.

6) They added in ledge grabbing because of parkour methinks. This is the only game with parkour. This is the only game with ledge grabbing.

Ledge grab is common in 3-D platformers. Why would Parkour be needed to added? It should have been there in the first place.

7) Do you know WHY we're debating about whether we should walk or run in that area? Because the argument started with "He died because he stuck to the wall". He was killed by the game's shoddy controls. That's all that example highlights.
It was meant to show that there is a clear confusion about the game mapping the run button and the parkour to the same button.

And, it's wrong.

He was killed because he choose to wrongly use parkour and blamed the game. He's a moron.

8) Difficult, but doable while boosting. Just don't boost there and the jumps are easy-peasy. You just jump off immediately after setting foot on the platform and you're doing some high speed platforming.

As you can see, the game makes concessions. There are small walls along most small platforms so that you don't bolt right off if you're at an angle.

You just don't boost? So, you hit the brakes meaning you stop the momentum based platforming which the game revolves around in the first place? You can't even platform quickly in certain stages unless you know the layout perfectly like Sky battery. Momentum based platforming will literally get you killed.

9) See 5). Sure, 2/8 = 25%. 25% of the wisps are controllable with traditional controls. Hooray?

Well, first you claimed there were hella more wisp in Lost World than in colors. Even though, the number of wisp is exactly one more. Now it's about the touch pad when all touch pad does is activate the wisp like how wii motion activates the wisp in colors. Asteroid isn't motion controlled and neither is rocket outside of aiming it.

10) I'm comparing Sonic VS Sonic. If I pick Sonic in Sonic Adventure, I can be sure that I'm doing 2 things: running and jumping. I play Lost World and I have no idea what the hell I'm going to do every other level.

Adventure had far less platforming elements and was filled with meaningless fetch quest, and other non platforming related gameplay elements.

Yes, Big, Amy and Gamma exist. They shouldn't. Neither should snowballing, freefall 2D levels, owl stealth section, darkness section, 2D / 3D split, fruit blender gimmicks, wisps, and more.

Then all sonic 3-D sonic games are guilty because all those mechanics came from previous games and were implemented almost exactly how they were in lost world.

The other games had some of these mistakes, but Lost World has learned absolutely NOTHING from these mistakes and continues to repeat them, making them more frustrating.

Now were getting somewhere. I'm glad you see them as mistakes and I agree they're terrible bloated. But, why did you expecting them to if every game before it had those same dumb mechanics?

I don't see the hate against Emerald Hunting, it makes a good degree of sense to me. Due to Knuckles' ability to glide AND climb walls, He wouldn't fit in straight platforming sections like speed highway. It makes sense for him to be in an enclosed environment. Knuckles controls almost identically to S3+K plus some new abilities.

His platforming is different, sure, but his is just focused around gliding, climbing and forced exploration.

It's not good at all because it contradicts the core gameplay of Sonic which is based on high speed platforming and moving forward. There was alot of back-tracking in knuckles gameplay. Back tracking in a sonic game, let that sink in.

11) You're not noticing what I want you to notice: Look at the length of that list of gimmicks. That's like 3 games worth of gimmicks stockpiled into 1.

flight level gimmicks, a stealth section gimmick, fruit blender gimmicks, a hella lotta wisps, snowball section, a darkness section that removes your ability to target anything and requires you to to pull a switch, a pinball section, a freefall section, cylindrical level design, mach speed
, 2D / 3D split. = 11

It's way more than 11, but it's a culmination all the other game types that have been around and I did notice it. Commented on it with C.

Sonic 1: None
Sonic 2: None
Sonic 3 + K: None
Sonic Adventure: Fishing, slow platforming, mech shooting, pinball and since you don't like it: Emerald hunting = 5
Sonic Adventure 2: Mech shooting, Emerald hunting = 2
Shadow the Hedgehog: Vehicle gimmicks, gun gimmicks, good VS evil gimmicks, freefall = 4
Sonic Heroes: I don't know whether to count the team aspect as a gimmick, since that's the entirety of the game. Team Blast, level up system = 2
Unleashed: Werehog, quick time events, freefall?, 2D / 3D split = 4
Colours: Wisps, freefall?, 2D / 3D split = 3
Generations: Wisps, freefall, 2D / 3D split (iffy on that, since that's the entire premise of the game) = 3
Sonic Rush: None
Sonic 06: Everything = 1 million. Tails, Knuckles, Rouge, Silver, Omega, Shadow vehicles, gems, etc.

You can't quantify it like that because you have to cover the amount of gameplay each gimmick covered. Like adventure had less if you count each character as a gameplay element, but they encompasse far more of the game than the elements of Lost World. Though, I agree that lost world had everything that the older sonics and the previous 3-D ones sans adventure had.

Let me know what I glossed over, but one of these looks dramatically larger than the rest (barring '06). While those games' gimmicks played a larger role, you were only doing at most 5 different things. In this game, you're doing 11. There's a reason why I keep calling this game out for a lack of cohesiveness.

5 very big different things as I stated above. Some completely unrelated to platforming, I mean fishing?

12) I'm comparing Sonic's abilities in Adventure to Sonic's abilities in Lost World. One is similar to the classic games (except translated to 3D) and the other is THE most dramatic departure from any form of Sonic I've ever seen.

Well, I thought you mean't the entire cast. Okay, well sonic is far less bloated in Adventure than in Lost world far enough.

13) Not getting it. Mach speed sections are temporary gimmicks. Boost gameplay is the entirety of Modern Sonic gameplay.

I mean't those specific sections where you're quick stepping to avoid obstacles. The only real difference is you don't die when you crash into objects. I don't see the big difference outside one being harder.

14) Such a shame that the main level with any sort of exploration in Adventure 2 was the grind-rail level. Not a big fan of grind rails because I'd rather be in control.

Yeah, they're awful.

15) What makes a good Sonic game is good control, good level design with branching pathways and exploration and a focus on momentum based platforming.
Sonic Lost World has none of this. The parkour system is shit and actually interferes with gameplay and must be compensated around. The game actually cannot simply handle my desire to run.
It has the most flat level design I have ever seen in a Sonic game with minimal branching pathways.
It has no focus whatsoever hopping from gimmick to gimmick.
Therefore: Lost World is bad.

So, then by that definition all sonic games post genesis sans the handhelds are shit then. That's what I was inquiring, because they all suffer from a lack of focus. Lost World being one the worst, but Adventure being the absolute worst offender of this.

16) I just said I refuse to see it as the solitary tribute to Tornado levels. One has you freefalling in the sky with familiar badnicks. One has you in the Tornado in the sky. 2/3 for both.

The tornado is the only missing element. If it's there then it would be to you.

Last Edit: Dec 27, 2014 22:44:55 GMT -5 by JACK-2

JACK-2
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Posts: 5,352

Sonic the Hedgehog Discussion and Comparisons Dec 27, 2014 22:52:00 GMT -5

Quote

Post by JACK-2 on Dec 27, 2014 22:52:00 GMT -5

1) Yeah, most of 'em were shitty. At least when I pick Sonic, I can be sure that I'm playing Sonic. When I play Lost World, I'm playing am awkward Sonic Mario hybrid

It's not really like Mario because Sonic had gravity gimmick since Death egg zone in Sonic and Knuckles.

2) I will agree that Knuckles sections were very different than Sonic, but at least I can be happy that Knux made the transition from 2D to 3D very well, with levels built around his unique abilities.

Doing Gem finding...Yeah.

3) I'm gonna disagree and say that Adventure 1 was far superior to 2. 1 had 50% of an enjoyable game to me (Sonic, Tails and Knuckles). 2 had 33% of an okay game to me (Sonic Shadow). Sonic's levels had slightly more exploration and goodies packed within levels than 2 did, so I prefer 1's speed sections to 2's. Gamma controlled SIGNIFICANTLY better than Eggman / Tails in 2 and wasn't bombarded with cheap enemy placement either, so 1 takes the cake there. I liked Knuckles in A1 since he had more compact levels, a functional radar system and a usable help feature. A2 butchered all of these, while making Knuckles control better as a trade-off.

I like Sonic in A1 and I was indifferent to him and Shadow in A2.
I disliked Gamma and I hated Eggman / Tails in A2.
I liked Knuckles in 1, I hated him and Rouge in 2.
I liked Tails in 1
I HATED Big in 1
I disliked Amy in 1

I'm also going to say that I disagree with his stance on SEGA as a company. I'd say that while Mario has made consistently well made games that are polished and work well, I'm now more interested in Sonic than Mario. They represent 2 extremes: Mario never changes and never moves on from the past. Sonic always changes and rarely holds on to anything from the past. As weird as this may be, I would honestly rather play Lost World than Mario Galaxy 2. I feel that Mario games have no soul and won't take off the training wheels until secret / last worlds. While Mario games are objectively good games, their lack of soul and training mode through the entire game legitimately bores me. I can't play more than 4-5 levels of SM3DW in one sitting because of how unengaged I am. I may think that Sonic Adventure 2 is a poor game AND a poor Sonic game, I can respect that something interesting is happening when I play, whether it be racing to catch a rocket in a strict time limit (should you try and reach the secret top handle for a top rank), or being chased by a GUN truck.

I'll also say that Mario has been consistently good while Sonic is fluctuating between excellent and terrible. I'd say that the highs of Sonic (CD, 3+K, Generations) are excellent games which is more than I can say for Meh-rio.

Man you're killing me. Did you do this just to discuss Sonic with me lol?

4) Huge deal. That was what separated Mario from Sonic back in their beginnings. Sonic never needed a run button because players earned their momentum and used that to traverse the environment. Throughout Sonic's history, he has never needed a run button (though the boost button is very close, it too works with 'earning speed' rather than being given speed). By giving Sonic a run button, you have effectively made him considerably more Mario-like, not even counting the game's Mario-like world themes, shift in platforming style to a considerably more 'Mario like style', and CONSIDERABLE nods to Mario, especially Galaxy (bee level where you mach speed VS bee level where you slide, planet of wormlike creatures trying to bite you resembling the dragon boss from Galaxy, shooting both protagonists to a miniature spherical planet to kill a large number of the weakest goons for a reward / progression, Super Mario Bros 2 (USA) style logs going down a waterfall, etc.)

There is a reason why no other mains Sonic game in history has had a run button, to adhere to tradition.

There's a difference though. Sonics fastest Speed isn't even the Run button or the Spin-dash but the mach speed sections. So, you can't even earn his best speed it's given to you. So, I suppose boost is better than Mach speed.

The change to the homing attack is a radical change, since it results in the removal of badnick chains to cross gaps that every Sonic game with a homing attack has had, it also means less input from the layer as it automates and already insanely simple task of Mashing A.

You can still do badnik chains. Don't let it fool ya, it's not as automated infact it's harder because some enemies are electric and you need to use your kick attack to stun them before homing attack.

The parkour system is also fairly different (not radically new, since we've seen Sonic run on vertical walls before and we've seen Sonic Wall jump in Colours), but we've never seen him bounce between walls before, scale walls, hold onto ledges, run horizontally when scaling a vertical wall, etc.

5) I was wrong about the monkey bars then, I take it back.
Tsk, tsk, such animosity. Why? I'm badmouthing the game far worse than he ever did.

Yeh, I really like platforming with it. Just needs to be implemented without a run.

gurpwnder
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Posts: 375

Sonic the Hedgehog Discussion and Comparisons Dec 28, 2014 3:45:44 GMT -5

Quote

Post by gurpwnder on Dec 28, 2014 3:45:44 GMT -5

Dec 27, 2014 22:39:49 GMT -5 JACK-2 said:

1)

The gameplay elements we are discussing aren't unique to either one these games. They appear through out all the 3-D games. So, why would it matter if you're not discussing them in their own right?

Furthermore, the wisp from colors that are in lost world don't use motion control and have added functionality. Only the new wisp have motion control. So, there's that.

2)

Well, it seems like you're also railing on it harder because you like it less. You can't hate it more for doing what all the other aforementioned games are doing. But, you mentioned that you hate it because Sonic games haven't learned from their previous mistakes. If so yes, I agree.

3)

It's not stretching it at all if the gameplay objectives are exactly the same. There is no difference between the free-falling, wisp, or 3-D/2-D sections of Lost World and Generations. In this case one is a Sonic game that literally plays 90-99% the same as the other. Halo isn't even the same genre.

4)

Well, the difference is that there are more of these mistakes from past games and this is the total culmination of them

5)

There's no indication of what the best route is. Nothing is given telling you and good level design? You mean like flying battery or flying fortress. Try momentum based platforming on that.

6)

You only touch the pad to activate it same with shaking the wii-mote to activate the wisp in colors. You control those wisp with the analogue.
Asteroid wisp doe not tilt the game pad, have no idea where you got that from.

7)

Ledge grab is common in 3-D platformers. Why would Parkour be needed to added? It should have been there in the first place.

8)

And, it's wrong.

He was killed because he choose to wrongly use parkour and blamed the game. He's a moron.

9)

You just don't boost? So, you hit the brakes meaning you stop the momentum based platforming which the game revolves around in the first place? You can't even platform quickly in certain stages unless you know the layout perfectly like Sky battery. Momentum based platforming will literally get you killed.

10)

Well, first you claimed there were hella more wisp in Lost World than in colors. Even though, the number of wisp is exactly one more. Now it's about the touch pad when all touch pad does is activate the wisp like how wii motion activates the wisp in colors. Asteroid isn't motion controlled and neither is rocket outside of aiming it.

11)

Adventure had far less platforming elements and was filled with meaningless fetch quest, and other non platforming related gameplay elements.

12)

Then all sonic 3-D sonic games are guilty because all those mechanics came from previous games and were implemented almost exactly how they were in lost world.

13)

Now were getting somewhere. I'm glad you see them as mistakes and I agree they're terrible bloated. But, why did you expecting them to if every game before it had those same dumb mechanics?

14)

It's not good at all because it contradicts the core gameplay of Sonic which is based on high speed platforming and moving forward. There was alot of back-tracking in knuckles gameplay. Back tracking in a sonic game, let that sink in.

15)

It's way more than 11, but it's a culmination all the other game types that have been around and I did notice it. Commented on it with C.

16)

You can't quantify it like that because you have to cover the amount of gameplay each gimmick covered. Like adventure had less if you count each character as a gameplay element, but they encompasse far more of the game than the elements of Lost World. Though, I agree that lost world had everything that the older sonics and the previous 3-D ones sans adventure had.

17)

5 very big different things as I stated above. Some completely unrelated to platforming, I mean fishing?

18)

Well, I thought you mean't the entire cast. Okay, well sonic is far less bloated in Adventure than in Lost world far enough.

19)

I mean't those specific sections where you're quick stepping to avoid obstacles. The only real difference is you don't die when you crash into objects. I don't see the big difference outside one being harder.

20)

Yeah, they're awful.

21)

So, then by that definition all sonic games post genesis sans the handhelds are shit then. That's what I was inquiring, because they all suffer from a lack of focus. Lost World being one the worst, but Adventure being the absolute worst offender of this.

22)

The tornado is the only missing element. If it's there then it would be to you.

1) If I were discussing Colours, I would go more in-depth and rail on them harder than I currently am. I would look at Colours as its own game and see what it does poorly and compare them to other games as well, like I'm doing with Lost World. I would say that the 2D sections don't control well from what I've heard and if the game is 80% 2D, we'd have a problem. I'd talk about the wisps and question their invention to begin with. I'd talk about Colours relative to Unleashed and appreciate the added platforming, talk about how Unleashed was the game that made us best feel like Sonic, then talk about why SEGA feels the need to remove from 3D. That's not how you're going to make a good 3D game. We already have good 2D games, we need more memorable 3D titles, etc.

I'm discussing Lost World here, so I'm not going to do that for every game. I'm not going to go as deeply into the faults and question the decision making of those games because I'd be typing you novels at that point.

2) I railed on Mr. GloweyEye McWeakToArrows too in Skyward Sword. A game should learn from the previous games' mistakes to make a better experience for the player.

3) No, they ARE very distinct games. I can categorize most of Sonic's mainstream games.

Sonic 1, 2, 3+K, CD and Generations Classic = Classic 2D Sonic. You need only a DPad and 1 button (3 in Generations, though you can perform the spin dash manually, so the spin dash button ain't so bad and one button just equips powerups, but fuck powerups, speed runs of levels are done without those). It doesn't get any more simple or intuitive than this.

Sonic Adventure 1, 2, Heroes, Shadow, '06, Lost World and Sonic Boom = 360 3D Sonic. You have full 360 degree control of Sonic at all times. Even when running, you are able to quickly swing around and make a 180 or run top speed in circles if you like. These games are 100% 3D and are also the home of Sonic's worst games. These games see the largest empasis on combat, since enemies can now attack you from all sides and these games often lock you in rooms full of them.

Sonic Rush and the other DS games, parts of Colours, Unleashed and Generations = 2D boost Sonic. Similar to Classic 2D Sonic, but with the energy level cranked up to 11. Sonic now has a dedicated boost button and a homing attack as well. These games differ from Classic 2D Sonic because there is more of an emphasis on collecting rings, then trying to maintain a boost for as long as possible while simultaneously trying to stay on the optimal route instead of having to work to full speed from scratch using slopes and the terrain to your advantage.

The majority of Unleashed, Colours and Generations = 3D boost Sonic. These levels have Sonic follow a path and the player can strafe Sonic left or right while he runs straight along that path. Considerably different than 360 3D because you no longer have 360 degree control over Sonic. These games again have a huge emphasis on speed and breakneck platforming.

So yeah, Generations and Lost World are two distinct gameplay styles.

4) Few mistakes > Culmination of mistakes. We're going backwards. No good.

5) Of course not. Sonic's never done that. Even the top route in most Sonic games may not be the most efficient one. The time it takes to reach the top route may not be worth it and avoiding the obstacles on the route below may result in a better time. The point was that by just holding boost and ignoring everything will 100% result in a suboptimal time. Generations wants the player to explore the levels and rewards them with considerably more optimal routes.

6) Bam. sonic.wikia.com/wiki/Indigo_Asteroid
Read the 3rd paragraph under 'gameplay' and see for yourself. I don't know where you're getting your facts from.

7) Sonic Adventure, 2, 06, Shadow and Heroes never needed 'em. The platforming was very different in those games compared to Lost World however, so there's that.
Considering how much of a failure the parkour system is here, I am SO glad I've never seen it before and I'll continue to be glad if I never see it again.

8) Why did he parkour? Because he held the run button. I don't know why you're continuing to debate this when you've already conceded that the controls for parkour are suboptimal.

9) With the game's camera angle, you can see the platforms FAR in advance, so its perfectly reactable to. Players don't say "It's been 20 seconds, I'll tilt the analogue stick to the left for 0.3 seconds and that will hopefully get me to that platform". They say "There's the platform. I can see the platform. I will jump to the platform".

10) See 6).
I already apologized for screwing up. You want another one? Yeah, I'm sorry I screwed that up. I saw old Sonic Colours Wisps and assumed they all returned when they didn't. I fucked up. Now I know.
Also, the rocket wisp only has you aim, then shoot. You aim by tilting the gamepad. sonic.wikia.com/wiki/Orange_Rocket
This is motion control. This is a gimmick. This sucks ass.

11) Hub worlds are a whole nother story. I'd rather they didn't exist. I was referring to the action stages, where the gameplay happens.

12) Sure, I agree. I have already agreed to this long ago. I'm only talking about Lost World's failings here.
Also, Snowball Sonic? Fruit blending? 2D Freefall? Darkness sections? Lost World doesn't only repeat other mistakes (gimmicks), it makes new ones. No good.

13) Where are we getting? I've already acknowledges the shit of other games a long time ago.
Why am I disappointed? We're fresh off Generations, the greatest Sonic game since S3+K. We're OFFICIALLY out of the dark ages. What do we follow up with? A Sonic game with an identity crisis. Fantastic...

14) You're stuck in a box as Knuckles. There is no beginning and there is no end. You just explore until you find the 3 hidden Master Emerald pieces.

15) Not a culmination, it adds its own shit in this shit stew.

16) I made that list to compare how many different gameplay styles you flip-flop between. Sonic Lost World has NO idea what it's doing.

17) Yeah. Nobody's going to defend that shit, but it doesn't help when you're repeating similar mistakes.

18) Good.

19) Well, when you make entire levels out of a boost mechanic, it's gonna have less on an emphasis on avoiding things like the mach speed segments and more of an emphasis on exploring and platforming. Outside of that, and the lack of control in mach speed sections, they are fairly similar. Except maybe the focus too. One is a switchup of your standard platforming ways, and the other is what an entire game is based around.

20) Yes.

21) True, almost all of them have gimmicks. However, the reason why I'm fine with Generations is because I'm running and jumping like 95% of the game. The few gimmicks aren't too harmful (rocket wisp is a superjump, freefalling takes 5 seconds, etc.) and rarely interrupt the usual gameplay. During that 95%, I'm having a blast exploring some of the best Sonic level designs I have ever seen.

But yeah, gushing over Generations aside, very few games were good outside of the handheld games and Generations.

22) Even then, it's questionable. The Tornado had fluid movement and Sonic stood on the side and jumped to attack enemies iirc. So it was actually not too far from typical Sonic fare. An autoscroll level.

SSF4: Dan
SFXT: Paul and Marshall
SF3: Sean
CVS2: Yamazaki, Ken, Joe
KOF13: Robert, Joe, Ryo
TTT2: Paul and Forest
Soul Calibur 2: Raphael
Soul Calibur 5: Raphael and Astaroth
Mortal Kombat 9: Johnny Cage
Garou: Marco Rodriguez
Bleach Dark Souls: Ganju
SSBM: Mario, Luigi, DK
SSBB: DK

gurpwnder
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Sonic the Hedgehog Discussion and Comparisons Dec 28, 2014 5:08:45 GMT -5

Quote

Post by gurpwnder on Dec 28, 2014 5:08:45 GMT -5

Dec 27, 2014 22:52:00 GMT -5 JACK-2 said:

1)

It's not really like Mario because Sonic had gravity gimmick since Death egg zone in Sonic and Knuckles.

2)

Doing Gem finding...Yeah.

3)

Man you're killing me. Did you do this just to discuss Sonic with me lol?

4) Huge deal. That was what separated Mario from Sonic back in their beginnings. Sonic never needed a run button because players earned their momentum and used that to traverse the environment. Throughout Sonic's history, he has never needed a run button (though the boost button is very close, it too works with 'earning speed' rather than being given speed). By giving Sonic a run button, you have effectively made him considerably more Mario-like, not even counting the game's Mario-like world themes, shift in platforming style to a considerably more 'Mario like style', and CONSIDERABLE nods to Mario, especially Galaxy (bee level where you mach speed VS bee level where you slide, planet of wormlike creatures trying to bite you resembling the dragon boss from Galaxy, shooting both protagonists to a miniature spherical planet to kill a large number of the weakest goons for a reward / progression, Super Mario Bros 2 (USA) style logs going down a waterfall, etc.)

There is a reason why no other mains Sonic game in history has had a run button, to adhere to tradition.

There's a difference though. Sonics fastest Speed isn't even the Run button or the Spin-dash but the mach speed sections. So, you can't even earn his best speed it's given to you. So, I suppose boost is better than Mach speed.

The change to the homing attack is a radical change, since it results in the removal of badnick chains to cross gaps that every Sonic game with a homing attack has had, it also means less input from the layer as it automates and already insanely simple task of Mashing A.

You can still do badnik chains. Don't let it fool ya, it's not as automated infact it's harder because some enemies are electric and you need to use your kick attack to stun them before homing attack.

The parkour system is also fairly different (not radically new, since we've seen Sonic run on vertical walls before and we've seen Sonic Wall jump in Colours), but we've never seen him bounce between walls before, scale walls, hold onto ledges, run horizontally when scaling a vertical wall, etc.

5) I was wrong about the monkey bars then, I take it back.
Tsk, tsk, such animosity. Why? I'm badmouthing the game far worse than he ever did.

Yeh, I really like platforming with it. Just needs to be implemented without a run.

1) I couldn't care less which came first, the shift from momentum / speed based platforming with distinct Sonic elements have been replaced by standard platforming a la Super Mario. Level themes are completely Mario-like when Sonic's always been above that shit. The constant nods to Mario ain't great either. Also, the addition of a run button is another Mario thing.

2) Looking at levels like City Escape, Knuckles would have completely broken them / not fit at all due to his ability to glide indefinitely and climb walls indefinitely. How do you contain Knuckles? Put him in a box. Okay, a box has no beginning or end, what now? You have him search for things in said box by exploring the environment and taking advantage of his unique abilities. How they handled him works well and he made the transition very well. I did acknowledge that his style is different enough from Sonic's, so I did list Emerald Hunting as a gimmick when listing gimmicks for every game.

3) You ask if Lost World is good. I say it's complete shlock. We go back and forth. You now literally present me with a quote discussing Sonic as a franchise and I respond accordingly. That's about how it went.
I will say that since I like discussing certain topics very deeply, conversations like this aren't too uncommon with me.
I go to my friend on Skype and start a conversation saying "Fuck Lost World" and he's like "Yeah, fuck that game". Half an hour later, and we're discussing whether or not humans fit in a Sonic game and whether Sonic should be in a city environment to begin with.
Shit happens.

4) His top speed is irrelevant. Sonic has a run button when he never had one before. Sonic's approach to platforming and level design now resemble something from Mario, despite whichever came first, the world themes are Mario and many levels bear resemblance to Super Mario Galaxy.

So let's get down to it. We have a game that flickers between a whole multitude of gimmicks unable to decide on its own identity and even the most basic platforming sections (running and jumping) feel out of place in a Sonic universe and more at home with Mario. We have a control scheme that is unable to handle the basic act of running. We have a considerably worsened homing attack and we have made rings completely worthless. We have level design that in no way resembles good Sonic level design.

At the beginning, you said it was ludacris that I said that this game does absolutely nothing right.
Are you now beginning to see where I'm coming from?

Last Edit: Dec 28, 2014 5:09:58 GMT -5 by gurpwnder

SSF4: Dan
SFXT: Paul and Marshall
SF3: Sean
CVS2: Yamazaki, Ken, Joe
KOF13: Robert, Joe, Ryo
TTT2: Paul and Forest
Soul Calibur 2: Raphael
Soul Calibur 5: Raphael and Astaroth
Mortal Kombat 9: Johnny Cage
Garou: Marco Rodriguez
Bleach Dark Souls: Ganju
SSBM: Mario, Luigi, DK
SSBB: DK

JACK-2
Paragon

Posts: 5,352

Sonic the Hedgehog Discussion and Comparisons Dec 28, 2014 6:52:46 GMT -5

Quote

Post by JACK-2 on Dec 28, 2014 6:52:46 GMT -5

1) If I were discussing Colours, I would go more in-depth and rail on them harder than I currently am.

Then please do add Colours into this discussion seeing as how we are discussing all of Sonics games and how they relate to each other. Not just Lost World in isolation because we are discussing mechanics in Sonic Video Games after all.

I would look at Colours as its own game and see what it does poorly and compare them to other games as well, like I'm doing with Lost World.

Well, the bolded is why other games are once again being brought up in the span of this discussion. Thus it's entirely related to be honest. There's nothing unrelated about bringing up mechanics from older games and their relation into this game.

I would say that the 2D sections don't control well from what I've heard and if the game is 80% 2D, we'd have a problem. I'd talk about the wisps and question their invention to begin with. I'd talk about Colours relative to Unleashed and appreciate the added platforming, talk about how Unleashed was the game that made us best feel like Sonic, then talk about why SEGA feels the need to remove from 3D.

Interesting. Unleashed had 2-D/3-D variation of Gameplay as well. It's no different from colors minus the wisp replacing werewolf gameplay...just like Lost World sans the boost.

That's not how you're going to make a good 3D game. We already have good 2D games, we need more memorable 3D titles, etc.

Very well then.

I'm discussing Lost World here, so I'm not going to do that for every game. I'm not going to go as deeply into the faults and question the decision making of those games because I'd be typing you novels at that point.

Fine with me, let us type novels because that's the only way to make sense out of the gameplay of Sonic Lost World versus the other 3-D sonic games. Infact, as I said Lost World amasses alot of clutter from all the way back in the 2-D era. My problem is you make it seem like Sonic just got all this crazy gameplay in Lost World. But, we see this chain of game implements going back to the MD era. It's not new because sonic was always moving in this direction since unleashed. So, why blame Lost World? Seems scape-goatish to me.

2) I railed on Mr. GloweyEye McWeakToArrows too in Skyward Sword. A game should learn from the previous games' mistakes to make a better experience for the player.

Okay, but when you have a chain of mistakes stretching into from older games into the present. You can't point the finger at one game.

3) No, they ARE very distinct games. I can categorize most of Sonic's mainstream games. Sonic 1, 2, 3+K, CD and Generations Classic = Classic 2D Sonic. You need only a DPad and 1 button (3 in Generations, though you can perform the spin dash manually, so the spin dash button ain't so bad and one button just equips powerups, but fuck powerups, speed runs of levels are done without those). It doesn't get any more simple or intuitive than this.

Well, if were talking about speed mechanics then the same applies to lost world. It has no boost and relies on the same mechanics for speed as the MD era Sonic: Springs, treadmills, loopty-loops, Spin-dash and what not. The only addition to his basic movements is parkour. Moving forward.

The 2-D sections of lost world refrence MD era Sonic very much. We've seen: Sky-Chase zone, Metropolis Zone, Sandipolis, and so forth.

Sonic Adventure 1, 2, Heroes, Shadow, '06, Lost World and Sonic Boom = 360 3D Sonic. You have full 360 degree control of Sonic at all times. Even when running, you are able to quickly swing around and make a 180 or run top speed in circles if you like. These games are 100% 3D and are also the home of Sonic's worst games. These games see the largest empasis on combat, since enemies can now attack you from all sides and these games often lock you in rooms full of them.

We have Mach-speed levels, grinding, and homing attack introduced for the first time. Lost World borrows once again from this era the aforementioned mechanics. I'd say the 3D is more in common with the next era of games. Because those games tended to have hub centers that you use to progress into other Zones.

Sonic Rush and the other DS games, parts of Colours, Unleashed and Generations = 2D boost Sonic. Similar to Classic 2D Sonic, but with the energy level cranked up to 11. Sonic now has a dedicated boost button and a homing attack as well. These games differ from Classic 2D Sonic because there is more of an emphasis on collecting rings, then trying to maintain a boost for as long as possible while simultaneously trying to stay on the optimal route
instead of having to work to full speed from scratch using slopes and the terrain to your advantage.

Yeah, a more streamlined easy speed mechanic that you press one button for and gain meter every ten seconds. That's boost in a nutshell. Also, homing attack is from adventure not this era.
This era also introduced the 2-D/3-D hybrid which lost world borrows. It has free-falling which lost world again borrows and this era borrows from the previous era with homing
attacks and grinding. Moving forward.

Now The majority of Unleashed, Colours and Generations = 3D boost Sonic. These levels have Sonic follow a path and the player can strafe Sonic left or right while he runs straight along that path.

Just like lost world, you could strafe off into a particular section of the cylinder based level. Branching off into another path. Though the branches are considerably closer together.

Considerably different than 360 3D because you no longer have 360 degree control over Sonic. These games again have a huge emphasis on speed and breakneck platforming.

Speed that is honestly too fast and unnecessary. Not to mentioned more streamlined to the point it invalidates and waters down the environmental momentum building features like Sonics trademark loop. They no longer have a function sans aesthetic thanks to boost. Spin-dash at least slows down and the loops add to it's momentum versus boost.

So yeah, Generations and Lost World are two distinct gameplay styles.

Generations and Lost world Both build on older sonic gameplay elements which can be found throughout the series. Generations just so happens to be a much more overt tribute vs Lost World which is taking everything. which is why it's so bloated. See above ^

4) Few mistakes > Culmination of mistakes. We're going backwards. No
good.

We aren't going anywhere. Like how did Generations move us foraward? All it did was refrence older games just like Lost World.

5) Of course not. Sonic's never done that.

So, why bring up tutorials then? If a

Sonic player is expected to know the optimal routes through trial and error. They can certainly bother to learn parkour without tutorials.

Even the top route in most Sonic games may not be the most efficient one. The time it takes to reach the top route may not be worth it and avoiding the obstacles on the route below may result in a better time.

How would a new player surmise any of this without prior knowledge? Answer: He or She would not. So, why would you complain about tutorials or lack there of when Sonic players have dealth with stuff like this historically sans tutorials?

The point was that by just holding boost and ignoring everything will 100% result in a suboptimal time. Generations wants the player to explore the levels and rewards them with considerably more optimal routes.

How does platforming factor into this? Boost and exploring paths,

okay.

6)

Bam. sonic.wikia.com/wiki
/Indigo_Asteroid
Read the 3rd paragraph under 'gameplay' and see for yourself. I don't know where you're getting your facts from.

In the 3ds he's controlled by the stick not tilting but I guess it's different here.

7) Sonic Adventure, 2, 06, Shadow and Heroes never needed 'em. The
platforming was very different in those games compared to Lost World however, so there's that.

Yes, the worst Sonic games of all time never needed them. Well, anyway the platforming in those games aren't anywhere near comparable to lost world like you said. The pits are very easy to clear and often the layout was simplistic.

Considering how much of a failure the parkour system is here, I am SO glad I've never seen it before and I'll continue to be glad if I never see it again.

It's not a complete failure at all. It made the platforming much more enjoyable because they could afford to crank the difficulty when platforming in difficult sections without compromising speed.

8) Why did he parkour? Because he held the run button. I don't know why you're continuing to debate this when you've already conceded that the controls for parkour are suboptimal.

I will continue to debate this as long as that example is considered valid. It is not, even with the run button mapped the way it is. That guy was a fool, no reason was necessary for holding the run or even running. And, moving slower is not a work around because in other sonic games you have to slow down as well in certain parts unless you're familiar with the layout and speed running. Flying battery for example or flying Fortress.

9) With the game's camera angle, you can see the platforms FAR in advance, so its perfectly reactable to.

In generations? Sure in non-boost speeds. But, I was talking about old-school sonic. You can't see anything nor are there indicators like in generations of whether you are falling into a branching path or a bottomless pit.

Players don't say "It's been 20 seconds, I'll tilt the analogue stick to the left for 0.3 seconds and that will hopefully get me to that platform". They say "There's the platform. I can see the platform. I will jump to the platform".

Sure if they're flying through the stage in boost or any 3-D game. But, then again you have moving platforms like in sky sanctuary during generations where boost will get you killed if you fly on them too fast without knowing what you're doing. Where are the tutorials for that?

10) See 6).
I already apologized for screwing up. You want another one? Yeah, I'm sorry I screwed that up. I saw old Sonic Colours Wisps and assumed they all returned when they didn't. I fucked up. Now I know.

It's no big deal. I made a mistake about tilt for Asteroid being the same as it is on the 3ds.

Also, the rocket wisp only has you aim, then shoot. You aim by tilting the This is motion control. This is a gimmick. This sucks ass.

Yeah, but rocket is much better in this game because of the level layout allows you to aim where in the stage you wish to go. Color just allowed you to go really high.

11) Hub worlds are a whole nother story. I'd rather they didn't exist. I was referring to the action stages, where the gameplay happens.

The fetch quest I was referring to was knuckles and his related gameplay.

12) Sure, I agree. I have already agreed to this long ago. I'm only talking about Lost World's failings

Can we turn this into a 3-D sonic game discussion since we are in agree ment?

here.
Also, Snowball Sonic? Fruit blending? 2D Freefall? Darkness sections? Lost World doesn't only repeat other mistakes (gimmicks), it makes new ones. No good.

Well, the darkness is from sandopolis in Sonic and Knuckles. With the ghost, but yeah the others are new and I do fault Lost World for them

13) Where are we getting? I've already acknowledges the shit of
other games a long time ago. Why am I disappointed? We're fresh off Generations, the greatest Sonic game since S3+K. We're OFFICIALLY out of the dark ages. What do we follow up with? A Sonic game with an identity crisis. Fantastic…

Generations was an artificial boom. What made it good was it references every sonic game till then anr removed all the unnecessary gameplay that was originally tacked on. So, it had adventure levels but not the non sonic ones, Unleashed levels sans the werehog, 06 levels sans the bugs, etc. It’s an exception.

14) You're stuck in a box as Knuckles. There is no beginning and there is no end. You just explore until you find the 3 hidden Master Emerald pieces.

Even worst, that’s completely antithetical to the core sonic game play. It’s not even sonic related.

15) Not a culmination, it adds its own shit in this shit stew.

Haha true.

16) I made that list to compare how many different gameplay styles you flip-flop between. Sonic Lost World has NO idea what it's doing.

I think it’s also an illustration of how sega has added too many mechanics. Though the lost world aren’t as crazy as werehog and Adventure game sections. They aren’t too good either. I rather play lost world though then those games.

17) Yeah. Nobody's going to defend that shit, but it doesn't help when you're repeating similar mistakes.

Agree’d.

19) Well, when you make entire levels out of a boost mechanic, it's gonna have less on an emphasis on avoiding things like the mach speed segments and more of an emphasis on exploring and platforming. Outside of that, and the lack of control in mach speed sections, they are fairly similar. Except maybe the focus too. One is a switchup of your standard platforming ways, and the other is what an entire game is based around.

I think I see where you’re coming from here. There’s more branching paths in the boost sections vs mach-speed which is linear. I see you much prefer the exploration while I’ve been praising mostly the platforming. Maybe that’s why we don’t see eye to eye?

.

21) True, almost all of them have gimmicks. However, the reason why I'm fine with Generations is because I'm running and jumping like 95% of the game. The few gimmicks aren't too
harmful (rocket wisp is a superjump, freefalling takes 5 seconds, etc.) and rarely interrupt the usual gameplay. During that 95%, I'm having a blast exploring some of the best Sonic level designs I have ever But yeah, gushing over Generations aside, very few games were good outside of the handheld games and Generations.

Generations has better branching paths but the wisps are unnecessary in that game. Lost World has the best wisp gameplay elements bare none. As for running and jumping I’d say you’re running in Lost World 80-85% of the time.Even the gimmicks like snowball have momentum based platforming. I love the platforming though.

22) Even then, it's questionable. The Tornado had fluid movement and Sonic stood on the side and jumped to attack enemies iirc. So it was actually not too far from typical Sonic fare. An autoscroll level.

Well, your movements are mapped to the tornadoes. So, it’s not really an issue of fluid movement. Tornado is a platform making that segment a platformer vs the one in Colors which isn’t.

23) I couldn't care less which came first, the shift from momentum / speed based platforming with distinct Sonic elements have been replaced by standard platforming a la Super Mario. Level themes are completely Mario-like when Sonic's always been above that shit. The constant nods to Mario ain't great either. Also, the addition of a run button is another Mario thing.

Well, the levels are based on Sonic. The first world is Green Hill Zone and the Sand world is Sandiopolis. The enemies seem to be from the MD era. The platforming is still speed based, check out the speed runs. Though you may be right about the run button.

The cylindrical level designs and planetoids is from Galaxy no doubt about that.

24) Looking at levels like City Escape, Knuckles would have completely broken them / not fit at all due to his ability to glide indefinitely and climb walls indefinitely. How do you contain Knuckles? Put him in a box. Okay, a box has no beginning or end, what now? You have him search for things in said box by exploring the environment and taking advantage of his unique abilities. How they handled him works well and he made the transition very well. I did acknowledge that his style is different enough from Sonic's, so I did list Emerald Hunting as a gimmick when listing gimmicks for every game.

No, you fix them by changing his branching paths like you did in Sonic and Knuckles. Putting him in a box defeats the purpose of branching paths, speed and platforming. It’s trash.

3) You ask if Lost World is good. I say it's complete shlock. We go back and forth. You now literally present me with a quote discussing Sonic as a franchise and I respond accordingly. That's about how it went.
I will say that since I like discussing certain topics very deeply, conversations like this aren't too uncommon with me.
I go to my friend on Skype and start a conversation saying "Fuck Lost World" and he's like "Yeah, fuck that game". Half an hour later, and we're discussing whether or not humans fit in a Sonic game and whether Sonic should be in a city environment to begin with.
Shit happens.

I enjoy this conversation as well.

4) His top speed is irrelevant. Sonic has a run button when he never had one before. Sonic's approach to platforming and level design now resemble something from Mario, despite whichever came first, the world themes are Mario and many levels bear resemblance to Super Mario Galaxy.

His platforming isn’t like marios:

Look at the speed emphasis. Mario is nothing like that.

So let's get down to it. We have a game that flickers between a whole multitude of gimmicks unable to decide on its own identity

All baggage that Sonic has amassed throughout it’s legacy of experimenting with random ideas throughout the years. Lost World just adds a few more.

and even the most basic platforming sections (running and jumping) feel out of place in a Sonic universe and more at home with Mario. We have a control scheme that is unable to handle the basic act of running. We have a considerably worsened homing attack and we have made rings completely worthless. We have level design that in no way resembles good Sonic level design.

The platforming is not like mario at all only the planetoid level design is. It’s still speed based platforming versus mario. The control scheme can handle running, rather it’s simple uncharacteristic that you can’t reach a run via moving forward. Homing attack can now target enemy clusters and enemies have been upgraded to handle the new multi functionality of this new homing attack: Having electric barriers that force you to mix up attacks in mid-air for example.

The cylinders are meh.

At the beginning, you said it was ludacris that I said that this game does absolutely nothing right.
Are you now beginning to see where I'm coming from?

Sorta, but I think sometimes you get too caught up in making a point.

Last Edit: Dec 28, 2014 7:57:33 GMT -5 by JACK-2

gurpwnder
C-Tier

Posts: 375

Sonic the Hedgehog Discussion and Comparisons Dec 28, 2014 20:56:46 GMT -5

Quote

Post by gurpwnder on Dec 28, 2014 20:56:46 GMT -5

Dec 28, 2014 6:52:46 GMT -5 JACK-2 said:

1)

Then please do add Colours into this discussion seeing as how we are discussing all of Sonics games and how they relate to each other. Not just Lost World in isolation because we are discussing mechanics in Sonic Video Games after all.

2)

Well, the bolded is why other games are once again being brought up in the span of this discussion. Thus it's entirely related to be honest. There's nothing unrelated about bringing up mechanics from older games and their relation into this game.

3)

Interesting. Unleashed had 2-D/3-D variation of Gameplay as well. It's no different from colors minus the wisp replacing werewolf gameplay...just like Lost World sans the boost.

4)

Very well then.

5)

Fine with me, let us type novels because that's the only way to make sense out of the gameplay of Sonic Lost World versus the other 3-D sonic games. Infact, as I said Lost World amasses alot of clutter from all the way back in the 2-D era. My problem is you make it seem like Sonic just got all this crazy gameplay in Lost World. But, we see this chain of game implements going back to the MD era. It's not new because sonic was always moving in this direction since unleashed. So, why blame Lost World? Seems scape-goatish to me.

6)

Okay, but when you have a chain of mistakes stretching into from older games into the present. You can't point the finger at one game.

7)

Well, if were talking about speed mechanics then the same applies to lost world. It has no boost and relies on the same mechanics for speed as the MD era Sonic: Springs, treadmills, loopty-loops, Spin-dash and what not. The only addition to his basic movements is parkour. Moving forward.

The 2-D sections of lost world refrence MD era Sonic very much. We've seen: Sky-Chase zone, Metropolis Zone, Sandipolis, and so forth.

8)

We have Mach-speed levels, grinding, and homing attack introduced for the first time. Lost World borrows once again from this era the aforementioned mechanics. I'd say the 3D is more in common with the next era of games. Because those games tended to have hub centers that you use to progress into other Zones.

9)

Yeah, a more streamlined easy speed mechanic that you press one button for and gain meter every ten seconds. That's boost in a nutshell. Also, homing attack is from adventure not this era.
This era also introduced the 2-D/3-D hybrid which lost world borrows. It has free-falling which lost world again borrows and this era borrows from the previous era with homing
attacks and grinding. Moving forward.

10)

Just like lost world, you could strafe off into a particular section of the cylinder based level. Branching off into another path. Though the branches are considerably closer together.

11)

Speed that is honestly too fast and unnecessary. Not to mentioned more streamlined to the point it invalidates and waters down the environmental momentum building features like Sonics trademark loop. They no longer have a function sans aesthetic thanks to boost. Spin-dash at least slows down and the loops add to it's momentum versus boost.

12)

Generations and Lost world Both build on older sonic gameplay elements which can be found throughout the series. Generations just so happens to be a much more overt tribute vs Lost World which is taking everything. which is why it's so bloated. See above ^

13)

We aren't going anywhere. Like how did Generations move us foraward? All it did was refrence older games just like Lost World.

14)

So, why bring up tutorials then? If a

Sonic player is expected to know the optimal routes through trial and error. They can certainly bother to learn parkour without tutorials.

15)

How would a new player surmise any of this without prior knowledge? Answer: He or She would not. So, why would you complain about tutorials or lack there of when Sonic players have dealth with stuff like this historically sans tutorials?

16

How does platforming factor into this? Boost and exploring paths,

okay.

17)

In the 3ds he's controlled by the stick not tilting but I guess it's different here.

18)

Yes, the worst Sonic games of all time never needed them. Well, anyway the platforming in those games aren't anywhere near comparable to lost world like you said. The pits are very easy to clear and often the layout was simplistic.

19)

It's not a complete failure at all. It made the platforming much more enjoyable because they could afford to crank the difficulty when platforming in difficult sections without compromising speed.

20)

I will continue to debate this as long as that example is considered valid. It is not, even with the run button mapped the way it is. That guy was a fool, no reason was necessary for holding the run or even running. And, moving slower is not a work around because in other sonic games you have to slow down as well in certain parts unless you're familiar with the layout and speed running. Flying battery for example or flying Fortress.

21)

In generations? Sure in non-boost speeds. But, I was talking about old-school sonic. You can't see anything nor are there indicators like in generations of whether you are falling into a branching path or a bottomless pit.

22)

Sure if they're flying through the stage in boost or any 3-D game. But, then again you have moving platforms like in sky sanctuary during generations where boost will get you killed if you fly on them too fast without knowing what you're doing. Where are the tutorials for that?

23)

It's no big deal. I made a mistake about tilt for Asteroid being the same as it is on the 3ds.

24)

Yeah, but rocket is much better in this game because of the level layout allows you to aim where in the stage you wish to go. Color just allowed you to go really high.

25)

The fetch quest I was referring to was knuckles and his related gameplay.

26)

Can we turn this into a 3-D sonic game discussion since we are in agree ment?

27)

Well, the darkness is from sandopolis in Sonic and Knuckles. With the ghost, but yeah the others are new and I do fault Lost World for them

28)

Generations was an artificial boom. What made it good was it references every sonic game till then anr removed all the unnecessary gameplay that was originally tacked on. So, it had adventure levels but not the non sonic ones, Unleashed levels sans the werehog, 06 levels sans the bugs, etc. It’s an exception.

29)

Even worst, that’s completely antithetical to the core sonic game play. It’s not even sonic related.

30)

Haha true.

31)

I think it’s also an illustration of how sega has added too many mechanics. Though the lost world aren’t as crazy as werehog and Adventure game sections. They aren’t too good either. I rather play lost world though then those games.

32)

Agree’d.

33)

I think I see where you’re coming from here. There’s more branching paths in the boost sections vs mach-speed which is linear. I see you much prefer the exploration while I’ve been praising mostly the platforming. Maybe that’s why we don’t see eye to eye?

.

34)

Generations has better branching paths but the wisps are unnecessary in that game. Lost World has the best wisp gameplay elements bare none. As for running and jumping I’d say you’re running in Lost World 80-85% of the time.Even the gimmicks like snowball have momentum based platforming. I love the platforming though.

35)

Well, your movements are mapped to the tornadoes. So, it’s not really an issue of fluid movement. Tornado is a platform making that segment a platformer vs the one in Colors which isn’t.

36)

Well, the levels are based on Sonic. The first world is Green Hill Zone and the Sand world is Sandiopolis. The enemies seem to be from the MD era. The platforming is still speed based, check out the speed runs. Though you may be right about the run button.

The cylindrical level designs and planetoids is from Galaxy no doubt about that.

37)

No, you fix them by changing his branching paths like you did in Sonic and Knuckles. Putting him in a box defeats the purpose of branching paths, speed and platforming. It’s trash.

38)

I enjoy this conversation as well.

39)

His platforming isn’t like marios:

Look at the speed emphasis. Mario is nothing like that.

40)

All baggage that Sonic has amassed throughout it’s legacy of experimenting with random ideas throughout the years. Lost World just adds a few more.

41)

The platforming is not like mario at all only the planetoid level design is. It’s still speed based platforming versus mario. The control scheme can handle running, rather it’s simple uncharacteristic that you can’t reach a run via moving forward. Homing attack can now target enemy clusters and enemies have been upgraded to handle the new multi functionality of this new homing attack: Having electric barriers that force you to mix up attacks in mid-air for example.

The cylinders are meh.