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Post by JACK-2 on Dec 26, 2014 5:12:21 GMT -5
You never had to run at breakneck speeds and slow down. They are perfectly doable really fast. In fact the game encouraged you to finish faster by increasing your score. So it was meant to reward players who played fast. You could also explore the stages and take your time. They rewarded this with the emerald system. You could do both. Mario wasn't necessarily better in this aspect. Just more 1 dimensional. You had to play the game one way unless you're talking about the later games where you could just fly past everything and ignore the platforming altogether. Kind of contradictory for a platformer isn't it? C, if you ran through a part with a death pit you would die. Chemical plant zone for example with the moving platforms. You can't speed your way through that. You had to slow down. With Mario, they've dumb it down with all the flying hats. But, you could play a none TAS run and get some of the platforming back. You can't do that with Sonic because the levels have boost and slopes which build momentum. Which require you to stop at certain parts. |
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The Big Daddy C-Master
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Post by The Big Daddy C-Master on Dec 26, 2014 5:15:17 GMT -5
You never had to run at breakneck speeds and slow down. They are perfectly doable really fast. In fact the game encouraged you to finish faster by increasing your score. So it was meant to reward players who played fast. You could also explore the stages and take your time. They rewarded this with the emerald system. You could do both. Mario wasn't necessarily better in this aspect. Just more 1 dimensional. You had to play the game one way unless you're talking about the later games where you could just fly past everything and ignore the platforming altogether. Kind of contradictory for a platformer isn't it? C, if you ran through a part with a death pit you would die. Chemical plant zone for example with the moving platforms. You can't speed your way through that. You had to slow down. With Mario, they've dumb it down with all the flying hats. But, you could play a none TAS run and get some of the platforming back. You can't do that with Sonic because the levels have boost and slopes which build momentum. Which require you to stop at certain parts. I could do chemical plant pretty much all fast, I mean you had to jump at certain points but you didn't have to completely break away from the experience. For instance Sky Sanctuary had pits and you can fly through it. You know what, I'll upload a vid of me playing and show you. Even in Mario you had flying Yoshi and could get 1 billion 1ups off of everything. Don't get me wrong it was fun but they dumbed it down. I loved flying personally but it wasn't platforming. |
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Post by JACK-2 on Dec 26, 2014 5:21:06 GMT -5
I could do chemical plant pretty much all fast, I mean you had to jump at certain points but you didn't have to completely break away from the experience. For instance Sky Sanctuary had pits and you can fly through it. You know what, I'll upload a vid of me playing and show you. Even in Mario you had flying Yoshi and could get 1 billion 1ups off of everything. Don't get me wrong it was fun but they dumbed it down. I loved flying personally but it wasn't platforming. You could do speed runs of it, but you would have to have prior knowledge. The game encourages you to go really fast and if you don't know before hand you will run right into a pit. I dislike tbh, the game should incorporate speed into it's platforming seamlessly all the time. Also, the game seems to encourage and punish speed as well. Like when you run really quick but hit a spring that forces you back. I don't get that. Agree'd with the mario. I'll even say Mario has become more dumbed down then sonic on traditional plat unless you do a non tas run. |
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The Big Daddy C-Master
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Post by The Big Daddy C-Master on Dec 26, 2014 5:26:20 GMT -5
I could do chemical plant pretty much all fast, I mean you had to jump at certain points but you didn't have to completely break away from the experience. For instance Sky Sanctuary had pits and you can fly through it. You know what, I'll upload a vid of me playing and show you. Even in Mario you had flying Yoshi and could get 1 billion 1ups off of everything. Don't get me wrong it was fun but they dumbed it down. I loved flying personally but it wasn't platforming. You could do speed runs of it, but you would have to have prior knowledge. The game encourages you to go really fast and if you don't know before hand you will run right into a pit. I dislike tbh, the game should incorporate speed into it's platforming seamlessly. Also, the game seems to encourage and punish speed as well. Like when you run really quick but hit a spring that forces you back. I don't get that. Agree'd with the mario. I'll even say Mario has become more dumbed down then sonic on traditional plat unless you do a non tas run. I did speed runs of levels (the best I could) while I was new. I mean yea I died some, but it was enjoyable. You didn't have to play Sonic super fast, that's part of the risk, but I don't think it made platforming impossible. You had the emeralds to collect which allowed you to explore (which is what I do anyways). So you could play both ways. Not to mention you have 3 characters with different traits. Sonic was the fastest and had a good jump and shield. Tails could fly and swim. Knuckles could burrow into secret areas, glide, and climb. It gave you a variety of ways to play a level. In later games they gave Luigi different traits but they were mostly identical otherwise. Usually Sonic had springs that led to springs. The only part I can remember where you really had to slow down at first was the Stage 9 of Sonic 2. Sky Chase or whatever. You had to jump on those propellers, it was harder with Super Sonic but that's it. |
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Post by JACK-2 on Dec 26, 2014 5:32:26 GMT -5
I did speed runs of levels (the best I could) while I was new. I mean yea I died some, but it was enjoyable. You didn't have to play Sonic super fast, that's part of the risk, but I don't think it made platforming impossible. You had the emeralds to collect which allowed you to explore (which is what I do anyways). So you could play both ways. I hope I don't come off like I'm bashing the platforming. But, as you said the branching zones and exploration is the key to sonic which I agree and that was great. But, in terms of pure platforming which is linear and Sonic is not. In respects to that Mario to me strikes me as closer to that ideal. Even with all the flying cap nonsense. Not to mention you have 3 characters with different traits. Sonic was the fastest and had a good jump and shield. Tails could fly and swim. Knuckles could burrow into secret areas, glide, and climb. It gave you a variety of ways to play a level. In later games they gave Luigi different traits but they were mostly identical otherwise. Usually Sonic had springs that led to springs. The only part I can remember where you really had to slow down at first was the Stage 9 of Sonic 2. Sky Chase or whatever. You had to jump on those propellers, it was harder with Super Sonic but that's it. Yeah, true. Mario characters were mostly the same versus sonic. I think that making them different adds credence to the exploration theme. Since each character could explore the stages very differently. I was talking about the springs that knocked you back or the spring traps. Whenever you had too much forward momentum. |
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The Big Daddy C-Master
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Post by The Big Daddy C-Master on Dec 26, 2014 5:38:32 GMT -5
I did speed runs of levels (the best I could) while I was new. I mean yea I died some, but it was enjoyable. You didn't have to play Sonic super fast, that's part of the risk, but I don't think it made platforming impossible. You had the emeralds to collect which allowed you to explore (which is what I do anyways). So you could play both ways. I hope I don't come off like I'm bashing the platforming. But, as you said the branching zones and exploration is the key to sonic which I agree and that was great. But, in terms of pure platforming which is linear and Sonic is not. In respects to that Mario to me strikes me as closer to that ideal. Even with all the flying cap nonsense. Not to mention you have 3 characters with different traits. Sonic was the fastest and had a good jump and shield. Tails could fly and swim. Knuckles could burrow into secret areas, glide, and climb. It gave you a variety of ways to play a level. In later games they gave Luigi different traits but they were mostly identical otherwise. Usually Sonic had springs that led to springs. The only part I can remember where you really had to slow down at first was the Stage 9 of Sonic 2. Sky Chase or whatever. You had to jump on those propellers, it was harder with Super Sonic but that's it. Yeah, true. Mario characters were mostly the same versus sonic. I think that making them different adds credence to the exploration theme. Since each character could explore the stages very differently. I was talking about the springs that knocked you back or the spring traps. Whenever you had too much forward momentum. I think Mario was just a traditional idea of a platforming game and Sonic took it and branched it out into more of a speed/ exploration game. You gotta jump those springs mane. |
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Post by JACK-2 on Dec 26, 2014 5:40:21 GMT -5
I think Mario was just a traditional idea of a platforming game and Sonic took it and branched it out into more of a speed/ exploration game. Agree'd, what do you think of Lost World from what you've seen of it? You gotta jump those springs mane. Ha ha yeah. |
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Post by gurpwnder on Dec 26, 2014 5:57:18 GMT -5
No style is done well. That's a massive exaggeration if not ridiculous assertion. There are styles that are wierd like pushing fruits into blenders and there are styles that are well done. To say no style is good is exaggerating. Yes, because generations is a throw back to older games. So, of course they'll perfect older gameplay styles. It's alot easier to build on what you've done before then to do something complete new. It's like C said. I don't get this complaint. "We're not seeing everything built from scratch"? Um, Lost world alot of game-play elements are built from scratch and you only stick to walls if you hold the run button. You won't stick if you let it go. I think that review was silly. At first he was hitting some good points, especially about the homing attacks ans whatnot which I nodded in agreement. Towards the middle it just became nonsensical when he went with the whole: "It doesn't feel like a Sonic game routine". Yet, he implied the Adventure series was good even if that was much less of a "True" sonic game then this one. While it's true the level themes change randomly and you often have zones that revolve around strange objectives: Like pushing fruit into a blender. If that randomness means you get other types of game modes then I'm game. Furthermore, in Video-Games designing a "Coherent play style" isn't really an objective tbh. Certain game shave challenge modes for example where each challenge is different from the next. Sonic Lost World seems to folow that type of Game design. All in all, that review was meh. 1) You list a couple things that are 'weird', but what about the game is well done? The homing attack has been butchered, the parkour system is flawed, the cylindrical level design goes against traditional exploration designs of Sonic, the Wisps are gimmicks, the red rings are placed in several do-or-die type scenarios, the tutorials are both poor and poorly implemented, . I've discussed Sonic Lost World at length several times with a friend and I've ranted several times about some highly questionable design choices. Let's start at the very first one: Sonic has a run button. WHY?! Sonic has always been about EARNING speed and properly maintaining that speed. I'm pretty sure you're going to say something like "But your beloved Generations, Rush, Colours and Unleashed have a boost button. Same thing." Boosting is similar, but not a permanent ability. It's an ability EARNED by performing tricks in Rush, by collecting rings in Unleashed / Generations or by collecting white wisps in Colours. Since his inception in Sonic the Hedgehog, Sonic never needed a run button. His games were all about MOMENTUM based platforming and that really seperated him from Mario, who could just hold down the B button to run considerably faster. With Sonic, you had to EARN your speed and the addition of a run button in Lost World completely tramples on that philosophy. The physics of the game look completely whack as well. The jump physics look extremely awkward and floaty and don't carry that sense of momentum that Sonic's always had in the past. There are 2 excellent moments in the video that highlight my problems with the parkour system. 6:42. There is the threat of a giant block falling and crushing Sonic, so there is naturally some urgency to get past it. Running past the gap gets you stuck on a block one 'block' high only. Why is Sonic trying to run up a 'wall' as high as him? That's absolute nonsense. If the system is so flawed, perhaps it needed more time to be ironed out before release. 7:20. The natural way to 'parkour' past that wall is to run at it vertically, then dash horizontally and continue. Johnny runs at the wall at an angle (a correct angle, considering that he got every ring). Considering that this level is very early in the game and that the game's hint system is extremely vague, how in blue blazes is a new player supposed to figure that out right away? Johnny ran along the wall horizontally and just flew off to his death? Why? Why could the parkour system not handle both methods of running alongside the wall? The parkour system looks like an idea, but not one that was implemented well at all. If the game cannot handle me wishing to go fast in 2D sections near walls, then the game needs to take the parkour system back to the drawing board. Snowball levels. WHY? Why am I a snowball? No really, WHY?! I don't wanna be a snowball. Being a snowball is shitty. I wanna be Sonic. Mach speed sections. We hated these in Sonic '06. Why are we Mach speeding all of a suddenly again? I'd like to be in control. Flight sections. Oh maaaaan. What were they thinking? Autoscroll sections with awkward controls that place several red rings in do-or-die scenarios? Just greaaaaaaaaaaaaaat. These 3 sections: How in blazes do they have anything to do with MOMENTUM BASED PLATFORMING? Y'know....Sonic's entire premise? The homing attack...did it really need to be changed? Oversimplified to the point of complication? I wanna homing attack an enemy right next to me and instead Sonic charges into 3 different enemies and I lose my bearings. That's just awkward as hell. Also, according to Johnny, the charging up of the homing attack doesn't seem to be consistent, which doesn't sound great either. The level design....hoo boy what did they do to you?! Outside of the cylindrical levels, these are the most flat 3D Sonic stages I have ever seen. I didn't see any hills, any branching pathways, nothing that made good Sonic level design was present in these 3D levels. The cylindrical levels are also questionable. What purpose do they serve? Sonic has always been about exploration and finding hidden pathways. Cylindrical level design just takes that premise, throws it out the window and instead says "Here are X number of sections of this level. You can only experience one linear chunk of it at a time. If you want to see more, play the level again and again." The plot: Meh. Mike Pollock is doing amazing as usual as Eggman and is genuinely funny, but what is the Lost Hex? Why is it lost? Why does Tails have such a sudden, dramatic mood swing against Sonic? So yeah, I actually DON'T think I'm exaggerating when I say almost NOTHING about this game is well-done. 2) And what does this result in? Quality. Some of the most interesting sections of Generations was actually Modern Sonic, since they managed to take old levels and give them such beautiful alternate pathways. Those pipes to the left and right of you in the beginning of Chemical Plant zone? You can jump on those and take shortcuts. Those telephone wires in Modern City Escape? You can get up to them and grind on them to take a shortcut and get a red ring. You're riding on a hook in Modern Sky Sanctuary? Jump off it at the right time to grab a different hook and explore another section of the level. 3) I meant to say "we're seeing everything built from scratch" which is bad the entire game completely tosses out the philosophy of what makes a good Sonic game good and instead fills them with poorly implemented gimmicks. Sonic Lost World is a good name. "Lost" is definitely right, game has no focus. We have so many different gimmicks and none of them are well implemented or justified well. "I'm in snow, I must become a snowball" isn't good enough. If you want to prove me wrong, tell me what the game does RIGHT. Tell me what it excels at. |
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Post by JACK-2 on Dec 26, 2014 6:29:13 GMT -5
1) You list a couple things that are 'weird', but what about the game is well done? The homing attack has been butchered, the parkour system is flawed, the cylindrical level design goes against traditional exploration designs of Sonic, the Wisps are gimmicks, the red rings are placed in several do-or-die type scenarios, the tutorials are both poor and poorly implemented, . 1] The Parkour system is not flawed. It compliments the platforming by doing things such as keeping sonic from accidentally running off into bottomless pits when he's platforming at high speeds. Because it gives him a ledge grab [something most 3-D platformers have ] when you hold the run button. You could use it to platform sideways as well in the 3-D parts and on a vertical axis during the 2-D ones. It's a good addition like I said. It's okay to have cylindrical stages insofar that they work on their own. Because each stage has a particular emphasis and honestly the stages aren't even all cylindrical even the cylindrical ones change up as you progress. The Homing Attack has more options this time which is probably why it's the way it is but I digress. It's not done too well, but it's not butchered. At least I don't think so. Wisp have been here since colors and they're implemented just as well in this game. I've discussed Sonic Lost World at length several times with a friend and I've ranted several times about some highly questionable design choices. Let's start at the very first one: Sonic has a run button. WHY?! Sonic has always been about EARNING speed and properly maintaining that speed. I'm pretty sure you're going to say something like "But your beloved Generations, Rush, Colours and Unleashed have a boost button. Same thing." Boosting is similar, but not a permanent ability. It's an ability EARNED by performing tricks in Rush, by collecting rings in Unleashed / Generations or by collecting white wisps in Colours. Well, actually if you go far back enough. Sonic had Spin-dash first which this game actually has. He also has speed shoes in this game as well. So, this game uses speed mechanics older than boost. The Run button is there because of parkour, but also it's there because it helps sonic pace easier due to the platforming emphasis this time around. It also allows him to platform differently. I never cared much for boost, it's just raw speed with a shield no less. It wasn't a great mechanic outside of being fast. He doesn't need it in this game because he has the older speed mechanics of Speed shoes and spin-dash. Since his inception in Sonic the Hedgehog, Sonic never needed a run button. His games were all about MOMENTUM based platforming and that really seperated him from Mario, who could just hold down the B button to run considerably faster. With Sonic, you had to EARN your speed and the addition of a run button in Lost World completely tramples on that philosophy. There's a mistake here. You don't need the run button to earn momentum or speed in this game. It's for parkour and mostly parkour. It just so happens that it moves faster when you hold it down. However, you don't need it for speed. You use the spin-dash for speed actually not the run button. That review is very misleading. The physics of the game look completely whack as well. The jump physics look extremely awkward and floaty and don't carry that sense of momentum that Sonic's always had in the past. It's not floaty at all compared to say the 2D sections of all modern sonic games. You do have momentum because of spin-dash and speed shoes. Which you can use for momentum based platforming. The parkour also gives sonic a much needed ledge grab that is prominent in many 3-D platformers. You can still platform really fast. There are 2 excellent moments in the video that highlight my problems with the parkour system. 6:42. There is the threat of a giant block falling and crushing Sonic, so there is naturally some urgency to get past it. Running past the gap gets you stuck on a block one 'block' high only. Why is Sonic trying to run up a 'wall' as high as him? That's absolute nonsense. If the system is so flawed, perhaps it needed more time to be ironed out before release. You don't have to use the run button to get past that part, though. There are spaces where you can wait out each crushing block. That guy is a moron if he thinks you need to rush to get past that part. Look at the video again if you don't believe me. See the spaces when the blocks fall down? Why would you need to speed through anyway? And, you could speed through if you want without clinging because speed is not dependent on the run button. 7:20. The natural way to 'parkour' past that wall is to run at it vertically, then dash horizontally and continue. Johnny runs at the wall at an angle (a correct angle, considering that he got every ring). Considering that this level is very early in the game and that the game's hint system is extremely vague, how in blue blazes is a new player supposed to figure that out right away? Johnny ran along the wall horizontally and just flew off to his death? Why? Why could the parkour system not handle both methods of running alongside the wall? Because he let go of the run button. Look at the same video at 7:25 seconds. The same scenario happens but he gets it right this time. He held on this time, not that it matters. Johnny lied about the moment in 6:42 seconds claiming he needed the run button to get through that part when you did not. The parkour system looks like an idea, but not one that was implemented well at all. If the game cannot handle me wishing to go fast in 2D sections near walls, then the game needs to take the parkour system back to the drawing board. Except that you can go fast in 2-D sections. You use the spin-dash not the run button. The part where he died didn't require the run anyway. That part where died had no parkour requirement and he even stated there aren't many parts that needed to use it. So, why was he using it. Snowball levels. WHY? Why am I a snowball? No really, WHY?! I don't wanna be a snowball. Being a snowball is shitty. I wanna be Sonic. Flight sections. Oh maaaaan. What were they thinking? Autoscroll sections with awkward controls that place several red rings in do-or-die scenarios? Just greaaaaaaaaaaaaaat. These 3 sections: How in blazes do they have anything to do with MOMENTUM BASED PLATFORMING? Y'know....Sonic's entire premise? This is what I mean by nitpicks. First off, the level variances are based on older sonic games. The free fall was in Sonic unleashed and Sonic generations in rooftop run. The rail grinding parts in sonic colors like on planet wisp and more inspired the all grinding parts in Lost World. Mach speed sections are not just in 06 but on planet wisp and unleashed where you're going in boost and have to stride left and right to avoid obstacles. The difference being you had control in colors and unleashed vs 06. But, that's not even why it sucked inn 06, it was the bad enemy placement which Lost World fixed. 2-D/3-D variation is in Unleashed, Colors and Generations. Basically, you're making it seem like "Snowball sonic" or putting fruits into blenders is the common variance in level types. Which it isn't, it uses many level ideas from older sonic games just like it uses power ups from older Sonic games and speed mechanics from older Sonic games. The homing attack...did it really need to be changed? Oversimplified to the point of complication? I wanna homing attack an enemy right next to me and instead Sonic charges into 3 different enemies and I lose my bearings. That's just awkward as hell. Also, according to Johnny, the charging up of the homing attack doesn't seem to be consistent, which doesn't sound great either. It just makes it faster, but I agree. I don't like the new homing attack. The level design....hoo boy what did they do to you?! Outside of the cylindrical levels, these are the most flat 3D Sonic stages I have ever seen. I didn't see any hills, any branching pathways, nothing that made good Sonic level design was present in these 3D levels. The cylindrical levels are also questionable. What purpose do they serve? Sonic has always been about exploration and finding hidden pathways. Cylindrical level design just takes that premise, throws it out the window and instead says "Here are X number of sections of this level. You can only experience one linear chunk of it at a time. If you want to see more, play the level again and again." I don't understand what you mean by what purpose cylindrical zones serve? They're branching paths to the different part of the zone. Each size of the cylinder stage is a completely different experience. There are ones that lead to the same platform, but overall they branch out completely. Yes, the game is liner, I agree. But, the gives the branching paths a sense of being finalized in a way that being able to backpedaling wouldn't tbh. The plot: Meh. Mike Pollock is doing amazing as usual as Eggman and is genuinely funny, but what is the Lost Hex? Why is it lost? Why does Tails have such a sudden, dramatic mood swing against Sonic? So yeah, I actually DON'T think I'm exaggerating when I say almost NOTHING about this game is well-done. Story in a Sonic game, really?! lol. |
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Post by JACK-2 on Dec 26, 2014 6:36:27 GMT -5
2) And what does this result in? Quality. Some of the most interesting sections of Generations was actually Modern Sonic, since they managed to take old levels and give them such beautiful alternate pathways. Those pipes to the left and right of you in the beginning of Chemical Plant zone? You can jump on those and take shortcuts. Those telephone wires in Modern City Escape? You can get up to them and grind on them to take a shortcut and get a red ring. You're riding on a hook in Modern Sky Sanctuary? Jump off it at the right time to grab a different hook and explore another section of the level. 3) I meant to say "we're seeing everything built from scratch" which is bad the entire game completely tosses out the philosophy of what makes a good Sonic game good and instead fills them with poorly implemented gimmicks. Sonic Lost World is a good name. "Lost" is definitely right, game has no focus. We have so many different gimmicks and none of them are well implemented or justified well. "I'm in snow, I must become a snowball" isn't good enough. If you want to prove me wrong, tell me what the game does RIGHT. Tell me what it excels at. 2] It's not gonna be like generations because the emphasis won't be on branching path ways which leads me to my next point. 3] What the game did good was implement a series of challenge modes in each level. If that means sometimes we sometimes get dumb stuff like pushing water melons into a blender. So be it, because we also get 2-D 3-D variance and speed levels or all Grind levels. It's not incoherent at all, it builds on earlier sonic game-play. There's no boost just like older sonics, you have a spin-dash but you also have parkour for platforming. You can even do it on a vertical axis and there are times you have to jump from side to side. You talk about gimmicks: You mean like boost or wisp? This game has Wisp and it has spin-dash instead of boost. The parkour adds to the platforming, can you honestly say the same for boost? |
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Post by gurpwnder on Dec 26, 2014 16:09:19 GMT -5
2] It's not gonna be like generations because the emphasis won't be on branching path ways which leads me to my next point. 3] What the game did good was implement a series of challenge modes in each level. If that means sometimes we sometimes get dumb stuff like pushing water melons into a blender. So be it, because we also get 2-D 3-D variance and speed levels or all Grind levels. It's not incoherent at all, it builds on earlier sonic game-play. There's no boost just like older sonics, you have a spin-dash but you also have parkour for platforming. You can even do it on a vertical axis and there are times you have to jump from side to side. You talk about gimmicks: You mean like boost or wisp? This game has Wisp and it has spin-dash instead of boost. The parkour adds to the platforming, can you honestly say the same for boost? If the emphasis isn't on branching pathways, then why is it a Sonic game? That's what Sonic games have done and their best games have very interesting level design. 2D-3D variance would be cute if either of them were done remotely well at all, which they're not. "It builds on earlier Sonic game-play". Okay, we are NOT seeing eye to eye here. This game has effectively killed Sonic's identity and shuns EVERYTHING from earlier Sonic designs. What about this game 'builds' on earlier Sonic? A dysfunctional system? A butchered homing attack? The most bland level design I've seen since Adventure 2 (which at least had spectacle and thrills)? I'm not seeing it. You've glossed over everything I've said about the parkour system being complete bollocks and every gimmick having no justification, but okay. The boost system at least is functional and doesn't actively hinder gameplay. That's way more than what can be said for parkour. Boosting is mostly used to scrape time off your best runs of a level. It may not add to the level design, but the burst of pure adrenaline really captures the feel of modern Sonic's speed. Let me put it briefly: This game is shit because it has destroyed what makes a good SONIC game and has instead replaced it with stuff that belongs in a Mario game. The addition of a run button infuriates me to no end. The extremely flat level design and lack of exploration / branching pathways spits all over good Sonic games. The gimmicks like fruit blenders, snowballs, antigravity nonsense, etc are gimmicks that force you into something else instead of focusing on Sonic's standard abilities like they did in S3+K and Generations. Nothing about this game is a good SONIC game. |
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Post by JACK-2 on Dec 26, 2014 16:13:49 GMT -5
If the emphasis isn't on branching pathways, then why is it a Sonic game? That's what Sonic games have done and their best games have very interesting level design. 2D-3D variance would be cute if either of them were done remotely well at all, which they're not. You're not really explaining anything. Rather you're just stating that X is "not done well". Branching paths are in the game actually. I have no idea what you're arguing at this point. "It builds on earlier Sonic game-play". Okay, we are NOT seeing eye to eye here. This game has effectively killed Sonic's identity and shuns EVERYTHING from earlier Sonic designs. What about this game 'builds' on earlier Sonic? A dysfunctional system? A butchered homing attack? The most bland level design I've seen since Adventure 2 (which at least had spectacle and thrills)? I'm not seeing it. I explained the elements that it used. You're ranting now. You've glossed over everything I've said about the parkour system being complete bollocks and every gimmick having no justification, but okay. Okay, were done here. I don't have time for vitriolic rants. You don't like the game, lets just leave it at that. |
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Post by gurpwnder on Dec 26, 2014 16:38:46 GMT -5
If the emphasis isn't on branching pathways, then why is it a Sonic game? That's what Sonic games have done and their best games have very interesting level design. 2D-3D variance would be cute if either of them were done remotely well at all, which they're not. You're not really explaining anything. Rather you're just stating that X is "not done well". Branching paths are in the game actually. I have no idea what you're arguing at this point. "It builds on earlier Sonic game-play". Okay, we are NOT seeing eye to eye here. This game has effectively killed Sonic's identity and shuns EVERYTHING from earlier Sonic designs. What about this game 'builds' on earlier Sonic? A dysfunctional system? A butchered homing attack? The most bland level design I've seen since Adventure 2 (which at least had spectacle and thrills)? I'm not seeing it. I explained the elements that it used. You're ranting now. You've glossed over everything I've said about the parkour system being complete bollocks and every gimmick having no justification, but okay. Okay, were done here. I don't have time for vitriolic rants. You don't like the game, lets just leave it at that. LOL I missed your giant reply to my 1) and I'll look over that now. |
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Post by JACK-2 on Dec 26, 2014 16:41:13 GMT -5
It's okay.
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The Big Daddy C-Master
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Living life to the fullest, and it feels great.
I'm still here... for now...
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Post by The Big Daddy C-Master on Dec 26, 2014 16:50:11 GMT -5
Ok I watched the whole review and the game seemed "OK". I did think they tried to cram too much into one game and it had a bit of a gimmicky feel. Nothing wrong with having multiple elements into one game, but I'd rather have a few that are done well than a lot that are done in a mediocre way. Honestly though I liked the platforming in the classic Sonic games better than the 3d ones, it just feels too jerky odd at certain parts. Especially with the gimmicks.
I don't think it was a terrible review though. Sonic games are always base breakers.
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Post by JACK-2 on Dec 26, 2014 16:54:32 GMT -5
I get the gimmicky feel and I sorta agree. But, I'm not sure for if it was too much with all the gameplay variances. It reminds me of a challenge mode you see in certain games. I also liked the speed mechanics. Yeah, it's pretty descent game.
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The Big Daddy C-Master
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Post by The Big Daddy C-Master on Dec 26, 2014 17:06:44 GMT -5
I don't think variance is bad. As long as it's done well. Experimental gameplay is good, the downside is people can bash it for being different. Not sure where they're trying to take Sonic games since people always have a complaint of everything they do.
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Post by JACK-2 on Dec 26, 2014 17:09:31 GMT -5
Some of the variances are from older sonic games others are new. I think they threw too much in though in could be a bit intimidating.
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The Big Daddy C-Master
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Post by The Big Daddy C-Master on Dec 26, 2014 17:14:37 GMT -5
Some of the variances are from older sonic games others are new. I think they threw too much in though in could be a bit intimidating. Intimidating or maybe bloated? Even the other Sonic games had hit and miss mechanics. I know this will never happen but I'd love a Sonic game that was like some of the older ones or maybe a hd remake. |
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Post by JACK-2 on Dec 26, 2014 17:39:18 GMT -5
Intimidating or maybe bloated? Even the other Sonic games had hit and miss mechanics. I know this will never happen but I'd love a Sonic game that was like some of the older ones or maybe a hd remake. Sonic 4 is like the older ones. Check it out! Bloated, at one point sonic was flying lol! |
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The Big Daddy C-Master
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Post by The Big Daddy C-Master on Dec 26, 2014 17:53:31 GMT -5
Intimidating or maybe bloated? Even the other Sonic games had hit and miss mechanics. I know this will never happen but I'd love a Sonic game that was like some of the older ones or maybe a hd remake. Sonic 4 is like the older ones. Check it out! Bloated, at one point sonic was flying lol! I have Sonic 4 on the PC actually. One of the benefits of steam is I got all of the sonic games for like 15 bucks. Flying Sonic who isn't super? Nah..... remember Sonic Spinball? |
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Post by JACK-2 on Dec 26, 2014 18:02:57 GMT -5
It's a throw back to this:
Same enemies as well. Bit too much, they really went over board this time.
Spinball was awesome.
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The Big Daddy C-Master
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Post by The Big Daddy C-Master on Dec 26, 2014 18:07:32 GMT -5
It's a throw back to this: Same enemies as well. Bit too much, they really went over board this time. Spinball was awesome. Yea I noticed the flying turtles. I think the Sonic 2 level was fine and controlled better by the looks of it, as long as you didn't spindash... |
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Post by JACK-2 on Dec 26, 2014 18:09:32 GMT -5
Because tails was there with the plane.
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The Big Daddy C-Master
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Post by The Big Daddy C-Master on Dec 26, 2014 18:16:58 GMT -5
Because tails was there with the plane. If you went too fast you'd fall off of the edge of the stage. Led to some great laughs back in the day though. |
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Post by gurpwnder on Dec 26, 2014 20:33:30 GMT -5
The bomb Wisp. What does it accomplish? The Musical note Wisp turns you into a musical note and you bounce on some circles to move around...okay....what's the point of that? Why could that section of the level not just had platforms for you to run and jump across? I'm going to sit at the complete opposite side of the spectrum and say that the wisps are outright horrible here. Gimmicky gyroscopic controls / touchscreen controls? No thanks. A considerable step backwards from Colours, since these ones use such gimmicky, and IMO shoddy, usages that I would just avoid them at all costs. I rant a bit more about the parkour system below, so I'll save that for later. Same with the level design. 1] The Parkour system is not flawed. It compliments the platforming by doing things such as keeping sonic from accidentally running off into bottomless pits when he's platforming at high speeds. Because it gives him a ledge grab [something most 3-D platformers have ] when you hold the run button. You could use it to platform sideways as well in the 3-D parts and on a vertical axis during the 2-D ones. It's a good addition like I said. It's okay to have cylindrical stages insofar that they work on their own. Because each stage has a particular emphasis and honestly the stages aren't even all cylindrical even the cylindrical ones change up as you progress. The Homing Attack has more options this time which is probably why it's the way it is but I digress. It's not done too well, but it's not butchered. At least I don't think so. Wisp have been here since colors and they're implemented just as well in this game. I'm discussing the Wii U version, where the non-wisp power-ups do NOT appear in the level, instead they appear in your suitcase from Miiverse or by doing certain little objectives. To use them, you have to touch the briefcase (which means you need your hands OFF the controls) and you have to touch the powerup you want. Absolutely silly implementation that leads many people to just forget about them at all. The change in 2D level design around parkour come at the cost of Sonic's identity. Sonic was never about simplistic platforming, that's Mario's shtick. The same can be said about the run button. That's not how Sonic works. The old Sonic level design catered to Sonic's design, where missing a jump usually put you down a level to a less optimal path instead of a bottomless pit. By changing everything around Sonic's new parkour system, you've effectively created a Sonic-Mario hybrid that doesn't reach the heights of either. Well, actually if you go far back enough. Sonic had Spin-dash first which this game actually has. He also has speed shoes in this game as well. So, this game uses speed mechanics older than boost. The Run button is there because of parkour, but also it's there because it helps sonic pace easier due to the platforming emphasis this time around. It also allows him to platform differently. I never cared much for boost, it's just raw speed with a shield no less. It wasn't a great mechanic outside of being fast. He doesn't need it in this game because he has the older speed mechanics of Speed shoes and spin-dash. You do call it the 'run' button though, which means that there are a certain set of expectations. You hold the button down to go faster while still remaining in full control. In previous Sonic games, spin dashing and jumping could cause Sonic to rocket forward incredibly far and fast. What if I just want to move quickly while remaining in full control? Why do I have to be scared of running next to a wall? Why not only have Sonic start wall climbing when he jumps at a wall with a decent amount of momentum? There's a mistake here. You don't need the run button to earn momentum or speed in this game. It's for parkour and mostly parkour. It just so happens that it moves faster when you hold it down. However, you don't need it for speed. You use the spin-dash for speed actually not the run button. That review is very misleading. I'll leave this point aside because I haven't played the game, I'm just taking the word of others and judging the game. It's not floaty at all compared to say the 2D sections of all modern sonic games. You do have momentum because of spin-dash and speed shoes. Which you can use for momentum based platforming. The parkour also gives sonic a much needed ledge grab that is prominent in many 3-D platformers. You can still platform really fast. There's a sense of urgency. When you want to go fast, which button do you instinctively go to? The run button. The fact that the game cannot handle Sonic running next to a block 1 unit high is a failure of the game. Why not only have Sonic start wall climbing when he jumps at a wall with a decent amount of momentum? The current system just looks unpolished and shoddy. There are workarounds, sure. You can just walk instead of trying to run on ice. You can walk instead of running during 2D sections. You can. OR, you can make the parkour system not suck so much. Only need 2 seconds of your time here. Sonic Spin dashes to break some blocks and then is stuck clinging to the wall...WHY!? Why is that a thing? How does this make sense? You don't have to use the run button to get past that part, though. There are spaces where you can wait out each crushing block. That guy is a moron if he thinks you need to rush to get past that part. Look at the video again if you don't believe me. See the spaces when the blocks fall down? Why would you need to speed through anyway? And, you could speed through if you want without clinging because speed is not dependent on the run button. And how could he to know what to do at all when the game does such a poor way of teaching the players what to do? Again, I'm talking about the Wii U version, I've seen that the 3DS version has vastly superior tutorials. Mistakes will often be made if the game doesn't do a good job of telling you how it works (again, Wii U). I've heard several people just flat out tell me that they actually have no idea how the new homing attack reticule even works. Sometimes it appears instantly, sometimes it doesn't show up after a considerable amount of time. Just poor explanations all around and that's no bueno. The one low to the ground he couldn't target at all. The one above him, he targeted in a flash. What did he do differently? Why is everything done so poorly here? Because he let go of the run button. Look at the same video at 7:25 seconds. The same scenario happens but he gets it right this time. He held on this time, not that it matters. Johnny lied about the moment in 6:42 seconds claiming he needed the run button to get through that part when you did not. I already said why: because there is a sense of urgency. When you want to go fast, which button do you instinctively go to? The run button. The fact that the game cannot handle Sonic running next to a block 1 unit high is a failure of the game. Why not only have Sonic start wall climbing when he jumps at a wall with a decent amount of momentum? The current system just looks unpolished and shoddy. Except that you can go fast in 2-D sections. You use the spin-dash not the run button. The part where he died didn't require the run anyway. That part where died had no parkour requirement and he even stated there aren't many parts that needed to use it. So, why was he using it. There were free-fall in generations and rooftop run, sure. I've just watched a let's play of Lost world. There are free falling sections in levels here too which resemble those free-falling sections, and don't look too bad. I'm talking about the 2D freefalling LEVELS where you're in permanent freefall and now have to control Sonic's up / down/ left AND right movement in an autoscrolling level while fighting gravity / wind resistance. Wii U World 4 secret level, I think. The main question is, why am I switching my style up so often? Why in the bee level am I forced to run nonstop? I don't want to run non-stop. Why am I suddenly turning into a snowball? I don't want to turn into a snowball? Why are there 2D sections at all? What is the need for there to be 2D? Before you say 'Unleashed, Colours, Generations', let me stop you there and say that I AGREE with you, I think the first 2 should have been full 3D and Generations is paying homage to Sonic's legacy, so I understand what they did there. We're past that point. Sonic has given us Sonic 4 (which is ass) and Generations for our old-school Sonic nostalgia. Why is there 2D here? There's no justification. The reason I'm so pissed off is because it seems like they've learned nothing from Adventure 1 and 2. I don't want to fish in a Sonic game. I don't want to shoot mechs. I just want well crafted high speed platforming. Same thing here: why am I a snowball? Why am I in 2D? Why am I in an entire free-fall level? I just want to experience some well-crafted high speed platforming. This is what I mean by nitpicks. First off, the level variances are based on older sonic games. The free fall was in Sonic unleashed and Sonic generations in rooftop run. The rail grinding parts in sonic colors like on planet wisp and more inspired the all grinding parts in Lost World. Mach speed sections are not just in 06 but on planet wisp and unleashed where you're going in boost and have to stride left and right to avoid obstacles. The difference being you had control in colors and unleashed vs 06. But, that's not even why it sucked inn 06, it was the bad enemy placement which Lost World fixed. 2-D/3-D variation is in Unleashed, Colors and Generations. Basically, you're making it seem like "Snowball sonic" or putting fruits into blenders is the common variance in level types. Which it isn't, it uses many level ideas from older sonic games just like it uses power ups from older Sonic games and speed mechanics from older Sonic games. Okay, we can agree here. There's another nipick I can think of, like Sonic's Spin dash. The spin dash charging animation is the old spin dash 'dash' animation and vice versa. Why? Why does collecting 100 rings no longer reward me with another life? I'd rather there be no life system to begin with, but now you've just made sequences where I collect hundreds of rings feel completely unfulfilling and made gathering rings absolutely worthless. Rail grinding. You lose the ability to instantly hop left or right from rail to rail like SA2 or Generations. Why? This makes rail grinding considerably more tedious. Why does the homing attack make Sonic go in an arc instead of straight at the enemy? What does this change add? How does this benefit the game? It just makes it faster, but I agree. I don't like the new homing attack. Cylindrical level design provides a different kind of exploration. With the Sonic games of old, you tries to stay on the topmost path for what was generally the optimal path and had to consistently stay up there to reap the rewards. Falling down lead you to a slightly less optimal path, but still decent until you fell far enough where the ground was littered with roadblocks or bottomless pits. With this game, all you do is choose which path you want to start on and start running. Sure, you can explore the tube by running along the walls and seeing things, that's cute, but the exploration is SEVERELY toned down from the good old Sonic games. When I say "what purpose do the serve" what I'm asking is "how does this IMPROVE Sonic level design?" It's different for the sake of being different, but I wouldn't' say cylindrical levels hold a candle to the Sonic games of old. Not only is the game linear, the levels are extremely flat when controlling 3D Sonic. Look at the desert levels in 3D (btw, I'm talking about the Wii U version), just complete desolate, flat voids of nothing. Where are the hills? The loop-de-loops? The ramps? The multilayered level design? I've seen several 'branches' where you either continue running along the path, or you can jump to another floating platform that contains a bath side-to-side to the original except filled with goodies / red rings. That's a definite step down because this game has turned multiplayered branching levels into a choice of 'jump left to get more rings'. EDIT: I've watched Desert Ruins act 3 (the dessert level) and there's a 20 second stretch where you do ABSOLUTELY NOTHING. You don't touch the controller, and Sonic just runs and picks up a bunch of rings. What nonsense. I don't understand what you mean by what purpose cylindrical zones serve? They're branching paths to the different part of the zone. Each size of the cylinder stage is a completely different experience. There are ones that lead to the same platform, but overall they branch out completely. Yes, the game is liner, I agree. But, the gives the branching paths a sense of being finalized in a way that being able to backpedaling wouldn't tbh. Yeah, Sonic games have had dramatically shifting stories as the series has progressed. Mostly in Adventure 1, 2 and 06. We've seen Sonic going from rescuing animals in the classic series to Sonic being arrested, travelling to space, watching the MOON GET BLOWN UP, to stop a revenge scheme from Gerald Robotnick to destroy the Earth in Adventure 2. The story is definitely a part of Sonic games. I will say that the plot is my favourite part about this game. We truly get to see Mike Polluck / Eggman truly shine and it's absolutely fantastic. I think that the story being lighthearted is great and I think that it fits Sonic. A bright blue hedgehog with gigantic eyes and giant red shoes isn't going to pull off 'grity' too well, and I'm glad that they stopped with that direction of story after 06 and brought Sonic back to what I think fit best - lighthearted and cartoony. However, they bothered to create a whole new planet called 'the lost hex' and do nothing with it. Why is it lost? Why does Tails know about it? What happened to the planet after Sonic left? Why is it a hexagon? What roles do the hexagonal shapes of the planet have to do with the levels / game? Etc. If you're going to create a brand new environment for Sonic, justify its existence. I would rather have some context than no context in this case. So yeah, I brought up the story because that's the best part of the game IMO. Story in a Sonic game, really?! lol. Am I negative as hell? Of course I am. Poeple will tell me how hype they are for the new Zelda / Hyrule Warriors and I'll say how much I think LoZ is the most overrated franchise of all time. People will tell me that Devil May Cry 1, 2 and 4 are awesome and I'll say that I refuse to ever touch the game because I hate Dante so much. People will tell me that Kingdom Hearts is absolutely amazing and I'll say "Fuck that anime kid, I hate him. Why does he have a giant key? Why is his hair so dumb? I hate this game, I hope this company goes bankrupt". I enjoy butting heads with other people (though I might just enjoy ranting in general about things I hate). I say we need some of that, considering all the positivity shown towards things that suck. A negative opinion is more important to me than a positive one. I will say that it's a lot more fun when the other person agrees with me because we go on and talk about the past, present and possible future of the games and rant about how much the game sucks, like the Walking Dead Season 2. I don't have anything against you, this is just something I enjoy doing. Remember that my very first post on this site was a rant about how I thought SF4 failed in its goals. |
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The Big Daddy C-Master
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Living life to the fullest, and it feels great.
I'm still here... for now...
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Post by The Big Daddy C-Master on Dec 26, 2014 20:46:01 GMT -5
You hated the old Devil May Cry games?
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Post by gurpwnder on Dec 26, 2014 20:46:21 GMT -5
Intimidating or maybe bloated? Even the other Sonic games had hit and miss mechanics. I know this will never happen but I'd love a Sonic game that was like some of the older ones or maybe a hd remake. Sonic 4 is like the older ones. Check it out! Bloated, at one point sonic was flying lol! Sonic 4? Hoo boy. I could go on a rant about this one too. I think I will, but I'll keep it brief. The abundance of speed boosters and bounce pads is disgusting. Why in a 2D Sonic game is control being taken away from me so often? The physics in Ep 1. Sonic can run up walls with almost no momentum. That's absolutely silly and makes Sonic look like Spider-man. You can legitimately stand 90 degrees in the middle of a loop-de-loop. The lack of momentum in your jumps also stinks. You could be running forward at a blazingly quick speed and if you jump, you can actually immediately STOP if you let go of forward. Rolling is no longer a great way to build momentum down slopes, which also shows how little care went into this game. This is SONIC THE HEDGEHOG 4. Why is this game retro pandering so hard? We have Generations for that. We have a set of two games that offer us considerably LESS content than S3+K, content of lower quality and offers nothing really new to the series outside of the introduction of the homing attack. Sonic 1 -> 2 gave us Tails, gave us Super Sonic, some new bonus levels, fresh level designs, and some other things. Sonic 2 -> 3+K gave us a huge amount of new levels, gave us Knuckles, new bonus stages, new ways to access the new bonus stages that incentivized exploration, minibosses, one giant cohesive zone instead of 2 acts of a level split up by load screens, elemental shields and more. Sonic 3+K -> 4:1 removes everything, fucks up the physics, gives us only 4 zones, reverts back to Sonic 1 special stages and shoddy level design. 4:1 -> 4:2 gives us improved physics, doesn't fix the abundance of springs and speed boosters, gives us Tails co-op play while still relying on Sonic 2's special stages, gives us only 4 zones and is still a large step backward from 3+K. These games are a SEQUEL to Sonic's greatest game of all time: 3+K. Why there is so much less is beyond me. |
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Post by gurpwnder on Dec 26, 2014 20:46:54 GMT -5
You hated the old Devil May Cry games? Also I think you botched the quoting lol. Do you need help? I have no idea how to quote like you and Jack do. I'm a scrubnub. |
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The Big Daddy C-Master
Big Daddy
Living life to the fullest, and it feels great.
I'm still here... for now...
Posts: 26,387
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Post by The Big Daddy C-Master on Dec 26, 2014 20:48:57 GMT -5
Maybe they were trying to keep it simple? I'll have to play again to give my viewpoint on the physics. For some reason 4 didn't stand out as much when I had Generations there too. Dunno.
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