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Post by JACK-2 on Aug 16, 2014 14:52:49 GMT -5
Links movements were better. Getting around the environment was fun with the sprint and you do use it to traverse around send pits, down and up slopes. That added a new layer to gameplay.
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Post by gurpwnder on Aug 16, 2014 15:13:02 GMT -5
At the end of the day, Link's movement changes are really small. Sure, it may be nicer to move around so much more freely, but you were talking about Skyward Sword moving the LoZ series in 'different directions'. Link's improvement movement isn't a revolution, it's an evolution.
You're still running around through dungeons (considerably fewer of them), solving problem in every room, fighting bosses (considerably fewer of them), grabbing an instrument, grabbing three sacred objects to unlock the second half of the game, etc. Not much has actually changed besides the swordplay in the grand scheme of things.
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Post by JACK-2 on Aug 16, 2014 15:25:04 GMT -5
Actually, it's not that small. In Eldin Volcano and Lanaryu Desert especially. You need the sprint to traverse, you can't get around with out. They seem small, but in perspective it's a bigger improvement in how link plays since Zelda went 3-D. Most of the good things about skyward sword involve changes to link himself and not the world: Level design and story.
There are less main dungeons than OOT which had 9 main dungeons, but SS has the same amount as Wind Waker and TP.
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Post by gurpwnder on Aug 16, 2014 15:40:25 GMT -5
Well of course they designed small sections of the game around it to take advantage of it, but it's not something that radically changes the Zelda formula.
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Post by JACK-2 on Aug 16, 2014 15:50:03 GMT -5
Not small sections. The entire Lanaryu desert has sand pits that you need to run to traverse. The Eldin Volcano is a small section, true. But, the entire desert without time shift stones is impossible to go through with out running.
No, it's radical. It's a small, but good change.
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Post by gurpwnder on Aug 16, 2014 15:52:01 GMT -5
We're arguing different things now. I'm talking about how it didn't revolutionize Zelda as we know it and you're arguing about the size of the sections in which sprinting is mandatory.
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The Big Daddy C-Master
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Post by The Big Daddy C-Master on Aug 16, 2014 15:52:08 GMT -5
At the end of the day, Link's movement changes are really small. Sure, it may be nicer to move around so much more freely, but you were talking about Skyward Sword moving the LoZ series in 'different directions'. Link's improvement movement isn't a revolution, it's an evolution. You're still running around through dungeons (considerably fewer of them), solving problem in every room, fighting bosses (considerably fewer of them), grabbing an instrument, grabbing three sacred objects to unlock the second half of the game, etc. Not much has actually changed besides the swordplay in the grand scheme of things. So in your opinion you feel the game simply improved upon the formula and didn't radically change anything. From what I saw I'll have to agree. It doesn't seem radically different than other Zelda games, it does seem like they improved upon key aspects of it. |
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Post by JACK-2 on Aug 16, 2014 15:55:30 GMT -5
We're arguing different things now. I'm talking about how it didn't revolutionize Zelda as we know it and you're arguing about the size of the sections in which sprinting is mandatory. What would qualify as revolutionizing Zelda? The changes that occur with link in respects to the 3-D game are revolutionizing. Zelda didn't have combat that required much thinking. You seem to want a bigger change in the overall gameplay which is fine, but I think this is a step in some direction. |
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Post by gurpwnder on Aug 16, 2014 15:57:22 GMT -5
So in your opinion you feel the game simply improved upon the formula and didn't radically change anything. From what I saw I'll have to agree. It doesn't seem radically different than other Zelda games, it does seem like they improved upon key aspects of it. For sure. I don't really think it 'improved' on the formula either, since the sky overworld is even more barren and dull, and they took out features from Twilight Princess that were nice, such as faries not doing anything if Link has full health. |
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Post by JACK-2 on Aug 16, 2014 15:57:44 GMT -5
So in your opinion you feel the game simply improved upon the formula and didn't radically change anything. From what I saw I'll have to agree. It doesn't seem radically different than other Zelda games, it does seem like they improved upon key aspects of it. Well, the key aspects of Zelda are exploration and puzzles. The things I like in SS are not key since combat while important is subordinate to the aforementioned. So, you guys are kinda right. I praised it because compared to the other 3-D zeldas, it had something going for it. |
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The Big Daddy C-Master
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Post by The Big Daddy C-Master on Aug 16, 2014 16:08:51 GMT -5
So in your opinion you feel the game simply improved upon the formula and didn't radically change anything. From what I saw I'll have to agree. It doesn't seem radically different than other Zelda games, it does seem like they improved upon key aspects of it. For sure. I don't really think it 'improved' on the formula either, since the sky overworld is even more barren and dull, and they took out features from Twilight Princess that were nice, such as faries not doing anything if Link has full health. What Zelda game is your favorite? |
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Post by gurpwnder on Aug 16, 2014 16:09:53 GMT -5
We're arguing different things now. I'm talking about how it didn't revolutionize Zelda as we know it and you're arguing about the size of the sections in which sprinting is mandatory. What would qualify as revolutionizing Zelda? The changes that occur with link in respects to the 3-D game are revolutionizing. Zelda didn't have combat that required much thinking. You seem to want a bigger change in the overall gameplay which is fine, but I think this is a step in some direction. I'd like to see a change in focus. I want exploration to take the forefront. I'd also like for some more open-world elements. I want to see a mountain and just run over to the mountain and explore the shit out of that mountain. I wanna see a forest and get lost in it, with several different paths, etc. I'd like to see secret areas contain more than a small ruppee bonus and some faries, I'd like more upgrades to be hidden. Hell, I'd like for entire dungeons to be secret, with a much tougher layout, puzzles and enemies. I'd like the bosses to be more engaging, instead of "Hit them with dungeon item. They fall down. Hit them with sword a few times. They get up. Repeat 3-4 times. A winner is you." I'd like to see a difficulty switch, or something even as basic as a damage multiplier that lets you tweak the damage as you wish. Make it so that even if you have 20 hearts, an enemy can hit you once and you're dead. Basically, I want to stop going through the motions and actually be engaged and challenged. We're not going to agree with the stamina thing, this much I know. You feel I'm understating its importance, and I feel you're overstating its importance. To me, revolutionary is something new (or at least something fresh). With Super Mario Bros, you could run and jump. In super Mario Bros 3, you could gain powerups that let you FLY. That's something I'd call revolutionary. Link could always run, now he can run a bit faster for a brief period of time. He can also hop over small ledges and almost parkour, which is really nice and streamlines exploration since you don't have to wait a billion years for him to grab a ledge that's barely above him and slowly climb up. Instead, he just hops right up and is rip-roaring to go. Again, it's really NICE, but it doesn't redefine Zelda. |
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Post by gurpwnder on Aug 16, 2014 16:20:58 GMT -5
@ C Master
I don't really know. I guess I'd have to go with Wind Waker, which is sort of hypocritical. I value gameplay above all else and Wind Waker is the easiest Zelda, so what the hell's going on here?
The gameplay actually felt on par with most other Zelda games, but the world is what kicked it up a notch for me. Ganon actually had some sort of motivation other than being arbitrarily evil. His homeland had nothing but death and misery, and he wanted to take the Triforce to create a better world for himself and his people. He even said that he didn't want to kill Link or Zelda, just wanted their Triforce powers.
Also Link had personality. I actually liked Link for the first time. His little dance for joy upon beating a boss is absolutely adorable, and I feel happy for him. He doesn't wear the green suit because he's predestined to, he does it because his granny forced him to cosplay as the hero of legend as tradition, then he kept the clothes on because he was whisked away into an adventure.
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Post by JACK-2 on Aug 16, 2014 16:21:21 GMT -5
I'd like to see a change in focus. I want exploration to take the forefront. I'd also like for some more open-world elements. I want to see a mountain and just run over to the mountain and explore the shit out of that mountain. I wanna see a forest and get lost in it, with several different paths, etc. I'd like to see secret areas contain more than a small ruppee bonus and some faries, I'd like more upgrades to be hidden. Hell, I'd like for entire dungeons to be secret, with a much tougher layout, puzzles and enemies. I'd like the bosses to be more engaging, instead of "Hit them with dungeon item. They fall down. Hit them with sword a few times. They get up. Repeat 3-4 times. A winner is you." I'd like to see a difficulty switch, or something even as basic as a damage multiplier that lets you tweak the damage as you wish. Make it so that even if you have 20 hearts, an enemy can hit you once and you're dead.
Basically, I want to stop going through the motions and actually be engaged and challenged.
The bolded is already insplace. You don't always beat the boss with the dungeon item in Skyward sword. Granted it happens and it may not always be consistent. But, overall it's fits your description. They even have hero mode which is a much harder diffiulty where damage is more and the enemies are tougher. We're not going to agree with the stamina thing, this much I know. You feel I'm understating its importance, and I feel you're overstating its importance. To me, revolutionary is something new (or at least something fresh). With Super Mario Bros, you could run and jump. In super Mario Bros 3, you could gain powerups that let you FLY. That's something I'd call revolutionary. Link could always run, now he can run a bit faster for a brief period of time. He can also hop over small ledges and almost parkour, which is really nice and streamlines exploration since you don't have to wait a billion years for him to grab a ledge that's barely above him and slowly climb up. Instead, he just hops right up and is rip-roaring to go. Again, it's really NICE, but it doesn't redefine Zelda. Actually, link couldn't always run he need to roll and hop to traverse faster. But, I'm not saying the Run by itself is revolutionary. What I'm saying is the changes with links movement and combat are revolutionary relative to 3-D zelda games. The stamina meter is more than just running, it's used in climbing and gradually depletes as you climb or crawl faster. There are entire mini bosses who's strategy depends on managing that meter [The centipede]. Stamina meter is revolutionary, running is not. But, the overall Stamina is because it effects gameplay drastically. It doesn't redefine the main important elements like puzzles [or it doesn't do it enough] and Exploration. But, changing how a character plays is important to a degree. |
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Post by gurpwnder on Aug 16, 2014 16:32:42 GMT -5
I'd like to see a change in focus. I want exploration to take the forefront. I'd also like for some more open-world elements. I want to see a mountain and just run over to the mountain and explore the shit out of that mountain. I wanna see a forest and get lost in it, with several different paths, etc. I'd like to see secret areas contain more than a small ruppee bonus and some faries, I'd like more upgrades to be hidden. Hell, I'd like for entire dungeons to be secret, with a much tougher layout, puzzles and enemies. I'd like the bosses to be more engaging, instead of "Hit them with dungeon item. They fall down. Hit them with sword a few times. They get up. Repeat 3-4 times. A winner is you." I'd like to see a difficulty switch, or something even as basic as a damage multiplier that lets you tweak the damage as you wish. Make it so that even if you have 20 hearts, an enemy can hit you once and you're dead.
Basically, I want to stop going through the motions and actually be engaged and challenged.
The bolded is already insplace. You don't always beat the boss with the dungeon item in Skyward sword. Granted it happens and it may not always be consistent. But, overall it's fits your description. They even have hero mode which is a much harder diffiulty where damage is more and the enemies are tougher. I borrowed my friend's Link Between Worlds and immediately started on Hero mode. Really, Hero mode doesn't really do anything. Sure, quadruple damage may look like a lot, but with such simple enemies it doesn't really matter. You shouldn't really be getting hit too often anyways. I'll give you the bosses. Since items are cumbersome to use during battle (according to matthewmatosis), they focused on swordplay which is cool. That boss who you literally tear apart during the fight looks cool. The bosses that you have to swordfight are fought in real time, which I would definitely call a step in the right direction. However, there are still bosses like Mr.GiantGloweyEye McWeaktoArrows (egoraptor's video) who are reminders of this trope. |
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Post by JACK-2 on Aug 16, 2014 16:37:10 GMT -5
The bolded is already insplace. You don't always beat the boss with the dungeon item in Skyward sword. Granted it happens and it may not always be consistent. But, overall it's fits your description. They even have hero mode which is a much harder diffiulty where damage is more and the enemies are tougher. I borrowed my friend's Link Between Worlds and immediately started on Hero mode. Really, Hero mode doesn't really do anything. Sure, quadruple damage may look like a lot, but with such simple enemies it doesn't really matter. You shouldn't really be getting hit too often anyways. I'll give you the bosses. Since items are cumbersome to use during battle (according to matthewmatosis), they focused on swordplay which is cool. That boss who you literally tear apart during the fight looks cool. The bosses that you have to swordfight are fought in real time, which I would definitely call a step in the right direction. However, there are still bosses like Mr.GiantGloweyEye McWeaktoArrows (egoraptor's video) who are reminders of this trope. I haven't played link between two worlds, but Skyward Sword has the most capable enemies in any 3-D Zelda. They aren't simple by any means. But, I digress. As Tentalus A.K.A Mr Giant Glow eyes. He's no more different than the regular OOT, TP, and WW standard boss. I don't get why this is a complaint lodge now, dumb bosses have been an issue for a while in 3-D Zelda. |
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Post by gurpwnder on Aug 16, 2014 16:42:15 GMT -5
I haven't played link between two worlds, but Skyward Sword has the most capable enemies in any 3-D Zelda. They aren't simple by any means. But, I digress. As Tentalus A.K.A Mr Giant Glow eyes. He's no more different than the regular OOT, TP, and WW standard boss. I don't get why this is a complaint lodge now, dumb bosses have been an issue for a while in 3-D Zelda. Absolutely, you're right. Skyward Sword probably gets more flak because it had a 5 year development cycle, yet we still get Mr. McWeaktoArrows. The Zelda series has gone on for a long time, so the longer a problem persists, the more annoying it'll feel. Skyward Sword definitely doesn't deserve extra criticism for shoddy bosses, this is a problem I have with every 3D zelda I've played. |
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The Big Daddy C-Master
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Post by The Big Daddy C-Master on Aug 16, 2014 16:43:44 GMT -5
@ C Master I don't really know. I guess I'd have to go with Wind Waker, which is sort of hypocritical. I value gameplay above all else and Wind Waker is the easiest Zelda, so what the hell's going on here? The gameplay actually felt on par with most other Zelda games, but the world is what kicked it up a notch for me. Ganon actually had some sort of motivation other than being arbitrarily evil. His homeland had nothing but death and misery, and he wanted to take the Triforce to create a better world for himself and his people. He even said that he didn't want to kill Link or Zelda, just wanted their Triforce powers. Also Link had personality. I actually liked Link for the first time. His little dance for joy upon beating a boss is absolutely adorable, and I feel happy for him. He doesn't wear the green suit because he's predestined to, he does it because his granny forced him to cosplay as the hero of legend as tradition, then he kept the clothes on because he was whisked away into an adventure. So you liked the feel of the game instead of it being mechanically superior? Story and the like? |
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Post by JACK-2 on Aug 16, 2014 16:50:24 GMT -5
Absolutely, you're right. Skyward Sword probably gets more flak because it had a 5 year development cycle, yet we still get Mr. McWeaktoArrows. The Zelda series has gone on for a long time, so the longer a problem persists, the more annoying it'll feel. Skyward Sword definitely doesn't deserve extra criticism for shoddy bosses, this is a problem I have with every 3D zelda I've played. I dunno why it took so long to develop skyward sword, but nintendo can have long development times for games OOT took 7 years iirc. The boss fights for 3-D zelda and combat in general was crap, but I liked ww ability to counter and take other weapons. But, still the enemy patterns were always bad for 3-D Zelda. |
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Post by gurpwnder on Aug 16, 2014 17:15:34 GMT -5
Absolutely, you're right. Skyward Sword probably gets more flak because it had a 5 year development cycle, yet we still get Mr. McWeaktoArrows. The Zelda series has gone on for a long time, so the longer a problem persists, the more annoying it'll feel. Skyward Sword definitely doesn't deserve extra criticism for shoddy bosses, this is a problem I have with every 3D zelda I've played. I dunno why it took so long to develop skyward sword, but nintendo can have long development times for games OOT took 7 years iirc. The boss fights for 3-D zelda and combat in general was crap, but I liked ww ability to counter and take other weapons. But, still the enemy patterns were always bad for 3-D Zelda. Yeah, they were. However, with a long development time, people will obviously expect more from your game. Yeah, the combat was changed and the stamina system was nice, but everything else (especially the core elements) felt the same, which I think disappointed many. Doesn't help that we had OoT with shoddy bosses, TP with shoddy bosses, WW with shoddy bosses, so by Skyward Sword, people would likely be more sick of them. |
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Post by JACK-2 on Aug 16, 2014 17:17:42 GMT -5
The development time was my big issue to. I think Skyward Sword should have been more different which is what initially put me off. I still hold that opinion, but I think with the new Zelda we may see a real change to the fundamental gameplay: Exploration and puzzles.
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Post by gurpwnder on Aug 16, 2014 17:26:19 GMT -5
The development time was my big issue to. I think Skyward Sword should have been more different which is what initially put me off. I still hold that opinion, but I think with the new Zelda we may see a real change to the fundamental gameplay: Exploration and puzzles. I'm not a fan of the new Zelda's art style, since I don't like anime at all, and this new Link looks anime as hell. However, if the gameplay is truly interesting AND challenging, I'll give it a look. |
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The Big Daddy C-Master
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Post by The Big Daddy C-Master on Aug 16, 2014 17:27:42 GMT -5
I dunno why it took so long to develop skyward sword, but nintendo can have long development times for games OOT took 7 years iirc. The boss fights for 3-D zelda and combat in general was crap, but I liked ww ability to counter and take other weapons. But, still the enemy patterns were always bad for 3-D Zelda. Yeah, they were. However, with a long development time, people will obviously expect more from your game. Yeah, the combat was changed and the stamina system was nice, but everything else (especially the core elements) felt the same, which I think disappointed many. Doesn't help that we had OoT with shoddy bosses, TP with shoddy bosses, WW with shoddy bosses, so by Skyward Sword, people would likely be more sick of them. Duke Nukem was the king of the long development time, people couldn't help but be unsatisfied. |
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Post by gurpwnder on Aug 16, 2014 17:35:31 GMT -5
So you liked the feel of the game instead of it being mechanically superior? Story and the like? Yeah, it made me happy to play because of how upbeat everything was. Sure, the bosses were pretty dull, general combat was pretty dull (enemies leave orbs that either give you a ton of hearts, magic, or pickups), the puzzles were easy, etc., but that's something I can say about almost every Zelda that I've played. A Link Between Worlds is also one of my favourites, since it brought exploration back. Several hidden collectibles around the world and nooks and crannies meant that exploring the world was very fun. When I think about it, I think I might like that game more than Wind Waker. |
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Post by JACK-2 on Aug 16, 2014 17:36:56 GMT -5
I'm not a fan of the new Zelda's art style, since I don't like anime at all, and this new Link looks anime as hell. However, if the gameplay is truly interesting AND challenging, I'll give it a look. The art looks weird. I was a big anime fan back in the days, now not so much. Though, I still watch it alot heh. I think the combat will focus on his arrows. He seems to have trick arrows or something to that effect. Can't wait. |
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Post by gurpwnder on Aug 16, 2014 17:44:31 GMT -5
Yeah. Hopefully they continue in Link Between Worlds' footsteps and expand on that idea. I want a world that has secrets galore, not a giant, empty hub between worlds.
And seriously, I can't even tell of Link's a boy or girl in this game. If they want to make a female Link, that's cool, make that an option when setting up your profile.
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The Big Daddy C-Master
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Post by The Big Daddy C-Master on Aug 16, 2014 17:45:34 GMT -5
Yeah. Hopefully they continue in Link Between Worlds' footsteps and expand on that idea. I want a world that has secrets galore, not a giant, empty hub between worlds. And seriously, I can't even tell of Link's a boy or girl in this game. If they want to make a female Link, that's cool, make that an option when setting up your profile. The pretty boy bishies are all the rage nowadays since they attract female gamers as well. |
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Post by JACK-2 on Aug 16, 2014 17:48:49 GMT -5
He looked like a boy right away to me. I heard many people were confused by links look and thought him to be a girl.
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Post by gurpwnder on Aug 16, 2014 17:51:21 GMT -5
Yeah. Hopefully they continue in Link Between Worlds' footsteps and expand on that idea. I want a world that has secrets galore, not a giant, empty hub between worlds. And seriously, I can't even tell of Link's a boy or girl in this game. If they want to make a female Link, that's cool, make that an option when setting up your profile. The pretty boy bishies are all the rage nowadays since they attract female gamers as well. I don't know what 'bishie' means. Does it mean 'guy who looks like girl'? |
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Post by JACK-2 on Aug 16, 2014 17:53:06 GMT -5
IT means Bishounen or pretty young man.
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Apr 9, 2018 6:20:33 GMT -5
Apr 9, 2018 6:20:33 GMT -5