|
|
Post by gurpwnder on Sept 4, 2014 13:41:33 GMT -5
|
|
The Big Daddy C-Master
Big Daddy 
Living life to the fullest, and it feels great.
I'm still here... for now...
Posts: 26,387
|
Post by The Big Daddy C-Master on Sept 4, 2014 19:24:13 GMT -5
I'm not seeing how she's shafted. So far if I'm not mistaken Samus has armor, zero armor, and the 2 piece, which I'm sure have different colors. Most other who are more famous than Samus got palette swaps too. I wouldn't mind everyone getting more detailed costumes. I wouldn't say it's an anti-Samus thing. I'm sure the fanbase likes her costume selection overall (except the ones that whine about it being "too revealing"). |
|
|
|
Post by gurpwnder on Sept 6, 2014 1:20:27 GMT -5
Oh, I should probably mention that I don't care for Zamus in the slightest. I care for the suit more than I care for the character because I had fun playing Metroid - which was played in the suit.
Let's take an honest look at Samus from the Metroid games, shall we? We have a character that runs, jumps and shoots with a variety of beams / missles in multiple direction. She's capable of morphing into a compact, mobile form to both avoid enemy fire and to explore areas that have an entrance that's one block high.
What do we have in Smash Bros? A one dimensional character whose projectile game isn't even super great. A generic ball that takes a while to charge up and cannot be rapid fired or aimed, missles that have slow startup and recovery for a fast travel speed, or slow startup and travel speed for fast recovery. She also is weak to projectiles herself since they didn't bother to incorporate her morph ball's mobile functionalities. She gets outzoned by the likes of Falco, Fox, Mario, Ness and many others, since many of them have more usable projectiles along with reflectors.
TL:DR - All she does is run, jump and shoot in Metroid. She sucks at that in Smash. How do you screw up a transition that badly? The worst character in Smash 64. A slightly above average character in Melee. One of the worst characters in Brawl.
By Brawl's release, Metroid Prime 1 and 2 were excellent games, yet she still stays in her extremely outdated Super Metroid Varia suit. I can understand her suits being palette swaps here, because nobody outside of Wario got any special treatment in terms of costumes (I'm guessing that they originally made WarioWare Wario, but then realized that many fans grew up on the Wario Land games, so added that alternate costume to appease those fans).
I'm pissy now because Shulk gets modelled in underwear, Little Mac gets a sweet alternate in a jumpsuit and Zamus gets a bikini, but Samus still gets shoddy palette swaps that don't even begin to capture the beauty of her actual suits.
It's not just that too, it's just that Metroid's not doing so hot either. I was really pissed off about Metroid: Other M and how it kicked the amazing Metroid Prime: Trilogy out of canon because Sakamoto couldn't be bothered to check for continuity and just ruined Metroid AND Samus. With Samus getting no love from Nintendo (Sakamoto) or the Smash team (Sakurai), It's just a big kick in the balls as a Metroid fan.
If at this point you still don't get me, that's cool. I spent about 2-3 whole pages listing these exact points over and over and just getting pissed off while you guys just wanted to point out that she has colours.
|
|
The Big Daddy C-Master
Big Daddy
Living life to the fullest, and it feels great.
I'm still here... for now...
Posts: 26,387
|
Post by The Big Daddy C-Master on Sept 6, 2014 8:39:39 GMT -5
Oh, I should probably mention that I don't care for Zamus in the slightest. I care for the suit more than I care for the character because I had fun playing Metroid - which was played in the suit. Samus is the actual character though. The armor is just the armor she wears (which is a part of her mind you), this is what makes you different than the others. Many people like to see the person behind the armor, especially since the woman happens to be hot and many might want an alternative to the armor since they mind find it not to their taste due to it being "dull" or whatever. How many people would know Samus is a girl if they plopped down and played the game without seeing the character's story? I'm guessing not many. Let's take an honest look at Samus from the Metroid games, shall we? We have a character that runs, jumps and shoots with a variety of beams / missles in multiple direction. She's capable of morphing into a compact, mobile form to both avoid enemy fire and to explore areas that have an entrance that's one block high. What do we have in Smash Bros? A one dimensional character whose projectile game isn't even super great. A generic ball that takes a while to charge up and cannot be rapid fired or aimed, missles that have slow startup and recovery for a fast travel speed, or slow startup and travel speed for fast recovery. She also is weak to projectiles herself since they didn't bother to incorporate her morph ball's mobile functionalities. She gets outzoned by the likes of Falco, Fox, Mario, Ness and many others, since many of them have more usable projectiles along with reflectors. TL:DR - All she does is run, jump and shoot in Metroid. She sucks at that in Smash. How do you screw up a transition that badly? The worst character in Smash 64. A slightly above average character in Melee. One of the worst characters in Brawl. Well Smash was never that well balanced anyways, and many characters got toned movesets for that game which I assumed they throught were balanced at the time. I like Kirby and there are things I would have liked him to have or not have, but I think they did a good job with him and didn't shaft him. Th ere's a difference between not liking something and it being shafted, which I don't feel is as justifiable. I never thought Mario had good "zoning" at all, and many projectiles don't deal a lot of hitstun or blowback so it's not a big deal to be hit by them. By Brawl's release, Metroid Prime 1 and 2 were excellent games, yet she still stays in her extremely outdated Super Metroid Varia suit. I can understand her suits being palette swaps here, because nobody outside of Wario got any special treatment in terms of costumes (I'm guessing that they originally made WarioWare Wario, but then realized that many fans grew up on the Wario Land games, so added that alternate costume to appease those fans). I don't think this is necessarily shafting either. I'm sure many people like many suits and Nintendo isn't going to do a super detailed version of all the suits AND 2 alternates. That would be a lot of time to spend on a character. I'm pissy now because Shulk gets modelled in underwear, Little Mac gets a sweet alternate in a jumpsuit and Zamus gets a bikini, but Samus still gets shoddy palette swaps that don't even begin to capture the beauty of her actual suits. I think the looks of the costumes are fairly standard, the only company I've seen go crazy with costumes is DoA, even Capcom's alternates aren't that great. Better when the fans do it. I feel this might be a bit of a fanboy complain though.  More like "It's not as good as it should be for the REAL fans." I'm all for nicely done costumes though, but I don't think they're horrible. Look at Morrigan from Darkstalkers and how long it took her to get a new palette. She had the old one for years. Look at the palettes they used for other 2d fighters again and again before new ones. I have way worse complaints than this actually, lol. It's not just that too, it's just that Metroid's not doing so hot either. I was really pissed off about Metroid: Other M and how it kicked the amazing Metroid Prime: Trilogy out of canon because Sakamoto couldn't be bothered to check for continuity and just ruined Metroid AND Samus. With Samus getting no love from Nintendo (Sakamoto) or the Smash team (Sakurai), It's just a big kick in the balls as a Metroid fan. Well that's another issue entirely. Shame Metroid isn't doing well. If at this point you still don't get me, that's cool. I spent about 2-3 whole pages listing these exact points over and over and just getting pissed off while you guys just wanted to point out that she has colours. I get you, I just don't think it's as big of a deal as you make it seem. She's hardly shafted and she got more costumes than some other characters from what I saw. I'd be more concerned about her gameplay than her costumes anyways. That's just a side issue. 3 is a good number to start with. Maybe in the future they'll work on her armor... or give her even less clothes (crosses fingers) xD |
|
|
|
Post by gurpwnder on Sept 23, 2014 0:48:01 GMT -5
I'm not super great at quoting, so I'll address each point you make in a separate paragraph here.
For starters, Zamus hasn't contributed anything as a character outside of M:OM (the less said about that shlock, the better). Outside of that, the suit is what brought us the gameplay elements that many fans love about the Metroid series so much, which is why it's important to me. Sex appeal does nothing for me, so Zamus bring absolutely NOTHING interesting for me personally.
Samus VS Mario zoning definitely is in Mario's favour IMO for many reasons. Samus can only shoot straight. Mario has a reflector. If Mario jumps, Samus can't deal with Mario's projectile. Samus has no easy way around projectiles herself, since her roll is terrible. I'm also definitely going to disagree with you in terms of Smash balance too. I play moderately competitive Brawl as DK, and I can say that outside of Dedede and Falco, there's never a time where I feel that because a character is in a higher tier than DK, I'm going to lose. Maybe that's just me.
I don't care for Nintendo's developmental struggles. I'm a consumer. I'm going to judge the final product as I see fit. I see other characters getting sikk alternate models, and Samus getting zero. As a Metroid fanboy, I couldn't be more sad. As a DK fanboy, I'm pretty happy.
Other companies can do as they see fit. Mario, Metroid and Zelda were the three kingpin series for Nintendo consoles. To see Shulk of all people get an alternate skin, but Samus' Fusion suit looking so horribly ugly really gets my goat.
Indeed.
Every character has 8 palette swaps, Samus got nothing special. If you want 'special', you've already seen Shulk in underwear, Little Mac with THREE different models, Wario with 2 models, etc. I wouldn't even be so pissy if Samus was actually looked at and had her moveset more intricately re-done. aiming beams would be awesome. A morph ball for her crawl would REALLY help VS Fox and Falco and her approach in general. More killing potential is something she desperately needs considering the averageness of her character as a whole.
|
|
The Big Daddy C-Master
Big Daddy
Living life to the fullest, and it feels great.
I'm still here... for now...
Posts: 26,387
|
Post by The Big Daddy C-Master on Sept 23, 2014 5:01:02 GMT -5
I'm not super great at quoting, so I'll address each point you make in a separate paragraph here. For starters, Zamus hasn't contributed anything as a character outside of M:OM (the less said about that shlock, the better). Outside of that, the suit is what brought us the gameplay elements that many fans love about the Metroid series so much, which is why it's important to me. Sex appeal does nothing for me, so Zamus bring absolutely NOTHING interesting for me personally. Samus VS Mario zoning definitely is in Mario's favour IMO for many reasons. Samus can only shoot straight. Mario has a reflector. If Mario jumps, Samus can't deal with Mario's projectile. Samus has no easy way around projectiles herself, since her roll is terrible. I'm also definitely going to disagree with you in terms of Smash balance too. I play moderately competitive Brawl as DK, and I can say that outside of Dedede and Falco, there's never a time where I feel that because a character is in a higher tier than DK, I'm going to lose. Maybe that's just me. I don't care for Nintendo's developmental struggles. I'm a consumer. I'm going to judge the final product as I see fit. I see other characters getting sikk alternate models, and Samus getting zero. As a Metroid fanboy, I couldn't be more sad. As a DK fanboy, I'm pretty happy. Other companies can do as they see fit. Mario, Metroid and Zelda were the three kingpin series for Nintendo consoles. To see Shulk of all people get an alternate skin, but Samus' Fusion suit looking so horribly ugly really gets my goat. Indeed. Every character has 8 palette swaps, Samus got nothing special. If you want 'special', you've already seen Shulk in underwear, Little Mac with THREE different models, Wario with 2 models, etc. I wouldn't even be so pissy if Samus was actually looked at and had her moveset more intricately re-done. aiming beams would be awesome. A morph ball for her crawl would REALLY help VS Fox and Falco and her approach in general. More killing potential is something she desperately needs considering the averageness of her character as a whole. Doing the quote function isn't that bad, you just have to make each part in the end quote tag and paste the beginning quote tag. Pretty simple tag. People like her having her armor off because it makes her more relateable in some ways than the bulky armor. They can see the face and it adds a dimension to them. This is of course a personal preference, not saying she should always be Zero Suit, but she doesn't have to always be armored up either. There's nothing wrong with an attractive character, they sell because they're appealing to look at. Which game are you referring to? The zoning for Mario never seemed to strong to me, it controls too small a space. Smash was also never really balanced in 64, Melee, or Brawl. Doesn't mean they're bad though. Samus hasn't been neglected though, she just didn't get much attention in the area you wanted, I'm sure others would have liked the attention that Samus had. Also no mention of DK in the big Nintendo characters? I'm a Kirby man myself. I thought she was strong in this game overall? |
|
|
|
Post by gurpwnder on Sept 23, 2014 21:12:37 GMT -5
The deal with Mario is that he actually has the ability to shoot fireballs at a decent pace. Samus can't compete with that because her projectiles are slow (charge shot's windup and insane recovery and missles have slow startup too). The other problem is that Samus' projectiles are very linear in such a game with such free-form movement. Mario can simultaneously jump over her projectile and lob his own at her. Not only that, but even if Mario is right in front of Samus, he has a cap to reflect Samus' projectiles back at her. I'm not saying that Mario's zoning is good. I'm saying that Samus' is bad.
When you get down to it, Samus is about running, jumping and shooting in her games. She can shoot a rapid barrage of beams in any of the 8 directions and fire missles rapidly as well, none of which have any startup and cooldown. That would be broke as hell in Smash Bros, I get that. I'd just like for Samus to shoot in multiple directions. When you get down to it, that would make her very zoning unique and threatening, and she'd feel a lot more like she does in Metroid. A simple change like that would be amazing (IMO).
|
|
The Big Daddy C-Master
Big Daddy
Living life to the fullest, and it feels great.
I'm still here... for now...
Posts: 26,387
|
Post by The Big Daddy C-Master on Sept 24, 2014 6:58:29 GMT -5
The deal with Mario is that he actually has the ability to shoot fireballs at a decent pace. Samus can't compete with that because her projectiles are slow (charge shot's windup and insane recovery and missles have slow startup too). The other problem is that Samus' projectiles are very linear in such a game with such free-form movement. Mario can simultaneously jump over her projectile and lob his own at her. Not only that, but even if Mario is right in front of Samus, he has a cap to reflect Samus' projectiles back at her. I'm not saying that Mario's zoning is good. I'm saying that Samus' is bad. When you get down to it, Samus is about running, jumping and shooting in her games. She can shoot a rapid barrage of beams in any of the 8 directions and fire missles rapidly as well, none of which have any startup and cooldown. That would be broke as hell in Smash Bros, I get that. I'd just like for Samus to shoot in multiple directions. When you get down to it, that would make her very zoning unique and threatening, and she'd feel a lot more like she does in Metroid. A simple change like that would be amazing (IMO). Mario's zoning wasn't good at all, but Samus had the advantage in that it was chargeable and did a ton of damage, it's unique in that regard that it has a ton of knockout power. That's what made it different. Is Samus just a hardcore zoning character anyways? Shooting blasts isn't the only part of zoning either. How much screen presence does she have? How tough is she? How fast is she? All of those things matter. |
|
|
|
Post by gurpwnder on Sept 25, 2014 17:22:32 GMT -5
A ton of damage and knockback doesn't mean anything if it's so predictable, slow and risky to throw out. Bowser can kill you at about 45% from the middle of Final Destination with a charged FSmash, but that means nothing, becaues of how insanely slow and hard the move is to hit with.
At a high level, Samus doesn't keep out with projectiles. She keeps out with her z-air.
|
|
The Big Daddy C-Master
Big Daddy
Living life to the fullest, and it feels great.
I'm still here... for now...
Posts: 26,387
|
Post by The Big Daddy C-Master on Sept 25, 2014 20:13:55 GMT -5
A ton of damage and knockback doesn't mean anything if it's so predictable, slow and risky to throw out. Bowser can kill you at about 45% from the middle of Final Destination with a charged FSmash, but that means nothing, becaues of how insanely slow and hard the move is to hit with. At a high level, Samus doesn't keep out with projectiles. She keeps out with her z-air. Mario doesn't have amazing zoning either. Better for mind games than anything. Never thought the zoning in Smash was quite as powerful as it was in other games for the most part. |
|
|
|
Post by gurpwnder on Sept 26, 2014 1:25:18 GMT -5
As I said before, Mario doesn't have amazing zoning but I already listed the advantages Mario has several times.
Angles, rate of fire and a reflector are HUGE leg ups over Samus' linear projectiles.
I'm also gonna disagree with your stance on zoning in Smash. Zoning is as strong here as it is in any other fighting game. Knowing the full range of your attacks VS their range is very important in any Smash game. Characters like Marth's effectiveness depend on the range of their attacks, while characters like Falco and Snake can dominate the stage with their projectiles. There are many types of projectiles and many answers to different types of projectiles too.
|
|
The Big Daddy C-Master
Big Daddy
Living life to the fullest, and it feels great.
I'm still here... for now...
Posts: 26,387
|
Post by The Big Daddy C-Master on Sept 26, 2014 4:19:27 GMT -5
As I said before, Mario doesn't have amazing zoning but I already listed the advantages Mario has several times. Angles, rate of fire and a reflector are HUGE leg ups over Samus' linear projectiles. I'm also gonna disagree with your stance on zoning in Smash. Zoning is as strong here as it is in any other fighting game. Knowing the full range of your attacks VS their range is very important in any Smash game. Characters like Marth's effectiveness depend on the range of their attacks, while characters like Falco and Snake can dominate the stage with their projectiles. There are many types of projectiles and many answers to different types of projectiles too. There are different projectiles, many of them just don't lead to a whole lot to really discourage anything, or they are really easy to get around. Some characters are exceptions. Samu's Blast isn't used in the traditional zoning way, it's too slow. Better for mind games more than anything. Zoning is weak in SF4 too, so it can vary. |
|
|
|
Post by gurpwnder on Sept 27, 2014 23:12:43 GMT -5
There are different projectiles, many of them just don't lead to a whole lot to really discourage anything, or they are really easy to get around. Some characters are exceptions. Samu's Blast isn't used in the traditional zoning way, it's too slow. Better for mind games more than anything. Zoning is weak in SF4 too, so it can vary. The 'exceptions' are the upper echelon of characters in Smash Bros Brawl (and even Falco from Melee too). Snake can restrict certain areas of the map and lock off jumping options. Falco can give anyone without a reflector a VERY hard time with his lasers alone. Marth zones characters out with the range of his sword and the fear of tippers. DK can control the mid-range game with his huge limbs and his hand slap. I don't now what game you're playing, but zoning is SUPER important in Super Smash Bros. Samus' rate of fire is so slow, that she isn't keeping anybody out. Even if used for edgeguarding, most characters can just stay under the stage and recover on the ledge from below. It's good as a surprise attack from midrange, but by admitting that, you're saying that Samus is a poor zoner in general, which is stupid considering this is a character who only runs, jumps and shoots in her games. |
|
The Big Daddy C-Master
Big Daddy
Living life to the fullest, and it feels great.
I'm still here... for now...
Posts: 26,387
|
Post by The Big Daddy C-Master on Sept 28, 2014 4:48:53 GMT -5
There are different projectiles, many of them just don't lead to a whole lot to really discourage anything, or they are really easy to get around. Some characters are exceptions. Samu's Blast isn't used in the traditional zoning way, it's too slow. Better for mind games more than anything. Zoning is weak in SF4 too, so it can vary. The 'exceptions' are the upper echelon of characters in Smash Bros Brawl (and even Falco from Melee too). Snake can restrict certain areas of the map and lock off jumping options. Falco can give anyone without a reflector a VERY hard time with his lasers alone. Marth zones characters out with the range of his sword and the fear of tippers. DK can control the mid-range game with his huge limbs and his hand slap. I don't now what game you're playing, but zoning is SUPER important in Super Smash Bros. Samus' rate of fire is so slow, that she isn't keeping anybody out. Even if used for edgeguarding, most characters can just stay under the stage and recover on the ledge from below. It's good as a surprise attack from midrange, but by admitting that, you're saying that Samus is a poor zoner in general, which is stupid considering this is a character who only runs, jumps and shoots in her games. Right you're controlling the stage in essence since you're trying to knock them off and keep them off of it. I'm just saying the traditional "fireball" way of doing it isn't very strong on its own. It seems you have to complement it with your movement options and edgeguarding to get great effect from it. I mean if you wouldn't keep people out with Mario's fireball alone. That's what I'm getting at. |
|
|
|
Post by gurpwnder on Sept 29, 2014 2:05:09 GMT -5
With Mario (and almost every character minus a couple), you're not so much 'keeping out' as:
A) Forcing an approach
and / or
B) Racking up %
with your projectiles.
I'm saying that if Mario and Samus were a good distance away from each other, Mario could accomplish these goals much easier than Samus could, which is pretty sad.
|
|
The Big Daddy C-Master
Big Daddy
Living life to the fullest, and it feels great.
I'm still here... for now...
Posts: 26,387
|
Post by The Big Daddy C-Master on Sept 29, 2014 4:24:54 GMT -5
With Mario (and almost every character minus a couple), you're not so much 'keeping out' as: A) Forcing an approach and / or B) Racking up % with your projectiles. I'm saying that if Mario and Samus were a good distance away from each other, Mario could accomplish these goals much easier than Samus could, which is pretty sad. Yea, see zoning is about controlling screen space, projectiles in that game seem to be more about mind games; which makes sense considering the level of mobility you have and how large the stages are in that game. |
|
|
|
Post by gurpwnder on Nov 11, 2014 3:47:01 GMT -5
Yea, see zoning is about controlling screen space, projectiles in that game seem to be more about mind games; which makes sense considering the level of mobility you have and how large the stages are in that game. How do you define 'zoning' though? Do you see it as solely projectile keepaway? Do you see it as consistent keepaway in general? Do you see Ivy's keepaway in Soul Calibur as 'zoning'? Or Nightmare / Raphael hitting with the max range of their extremely long weapons at a range that other characters cannot match? What about DK's amazing midrange zoning, where any character wishing to get into melee range has to deal with a barage of f-tilts and down B's. Seriously, DK outzones Marth. This term has always confused me. 'Zoning' is the art of keeping an opponent in a preferred zone, yes? Assuming this is the case, doesn't that mean a T.Hawk who light SPD's you and sticks to you like glue is technically 'zoning' you, since he's keeping you exactly where he wants you to be? Anyways, back to the discussion, They seem to have improved Samus' zoning threat, since she is now one of the few characters with infinite range and a projectile that can actually threaten to kill at a decent percent. It's a shame she still can't morph ball under projectiles or use any of her other weapons, but alas, there's always next game. |
|
The Big Daddy C-Master
Big Daddy
Living life to the fullest, and it feels great.
I'm still here... for now...
Posts: 26,387
|
Post by The Big Daddy C-Master on Nov 11, 2014 8:59:38 GMT -5
Yea, see zoning is about controlling screen space, projectiles in that game seem to be more about mind games; which makes sense considering the level of mobility you have and how large the stages are in that game. How do you define 'zoning' though? Do you see it as solely projectile keepaway? Do you see it as consistent keepaway in general? Do you see Ivy's keepaway in Soul Calibur as 'zoning'? Or Nightmare / Raphael hitting with the max range of their extremely long weapons at a range that other characters cannot match? What about DK's amazing midrange zoning, where any character wishing to get into melee range has to deal with a barage of f-tilts and down B's. Seriously, DK outzones Marth. This term has always confused me. 'Zoning' is the art of keeping an opponent in a preferred zone, yes? Assuming this is the case, doesn't that mean a T.Hawk who light SPD's you and sticks to you like glue is technically 'zoning' you, since he's keeping you exactly where he wants you to be? Anyways, back to the discussion, They seem to have improved Samus' zoning threat, since she is now one of the few characters with infinite range and a projectile that can actually threaten to kill at a decent percent. It's a shame she still can't morph ball under projectiles or use any of her other weapons, but alas, there's always next game. Long time no see pal. Been playing SF? I define it as controlling space and keeping your opponent where you want them. Dhalsim would be a great example of that. You don't need fireballs to do it although they can help. |
|
|
|
Post by gurpwnder on Nov 13, 2014 2:11:00 GMT -5
Long time no see pal. Been playing SF? I define it as controlling space and keeping your opponent where you want them. Dhalsim would be a great example of that. You don't need fireballs to do it although they can help. Yeah, sorry I haven't been on as much lately. School started again, so I was focusing on that for a while. Haven't played much SF, mostly Smash Bros. You define it as 'keeping your opponent where you want them.' Does this mean you agree that T.Hawk is zoning you if he lands multiple LP SPD's? |
|
The Big Daddy C-Master
Big Daddy
Living life to the fullest, and it feels great.
I'm still here... for now...
Posts: 26,387
|
Post by The Big Daddy C-Master on Nov 13, 2014 2:40:40 GMT -5
Long time no see pal. Been playing SF? I define it as controlling space and keeping your opponent where you want them. Dhalsim would be a great example of that. You don't need fireballs to do it although they can help. Yeah, sorry I haven't been on as much lately. School started again, so I was focusing on that for a while. Haven't played much SF, mostly Smash Bros. You define it as 'keeping your opponent where you want them.' Does this mean you agree that T.Hawk is zoning you if he lands multiple LP SPD's? You're not really controlling the space around you with an up close grab though. Chun Li doing her normals is keeping you out though. T. Hawk wants you to get "in". |
|
|
|
Post by gurpwnder on Nov 13, 2014 3:19:54 GMT -5
But you're keeping your opponent right where you want them: in your face.
|
|
The Big Daddy C-Master
Big Daddy
Living life to the fullest, and it feels great.
I'm still here... for now...
Posts: 26,387
|
Post by The Big Daddy C-Master on Nov 13, 2014 16:11:51 GMT -5
But you're keeping your opponent right where you want them: in your face. Nobody willingly goes into their face, so they made an error in most cases. Not really the same thing as having a character completely lock you out. |
|
|
|
Post by gurpwnder on Nov 13, 2014 16:32:50 GMT -5
But you're keeping your opponent right where you want them: in your face. Nobody willingly goes into their face, so they made an error in most cases. Not really the same thing as having a character completely lock you out. On the other hand, no T.Hawk player willingly stays fullscreen VS Ryu. Ryu wants T.Hawk to be far away from him. If Ryu successfully and consistently keeps him out, then Ryu is considered to be zoning T.Hawk. T.Hawk wants to be right up in Ryu's face. If T.Hawk successfully and consistently sticks to Ryu like glue, then why isn't T.Hawk 'zoning' Ryu? Especially when we both agreed that zoning is 'keeping your opponent where you want them to be'. |
|
The Big Daddy C-Master
Big Daddy
Living life to the fullest, and it feels great.
I'm still here... for now...
Posts: 26,387
|
Post by The Big Daddy C-Master on Nov 13, 2014 18:01:38 GMT -5
Nobody willingly goes into their face, so they made an error in most cases. Not really the same thing as having a character completely lock you out. On the other hand, no T.Hawk player willingly stays fullscreen VS Ryu. Ryu wants T.Hawk to be far away from him. If Ryu successfully and consistently keeps him out, then Ryu is considered to be zoning T.Hawk. T.Hawk wants to be right up in Ryu's face. If T.Hawk successfully and consistently sticks to Ryu like glue, then why isn't T.Hawk 'zoning' Ryu? Especially when we both agreed that zoning is 'keeping your opponent where you want them to be'. No because the T. Hawk player is making an effort to constantly get in on his opponent. No different than Yun rushing down an opponent into the corner. They aren't controlling space the same way. A character who specializes in zoning controls the playing space much more. Akuma zones better than Evil Ryu because he can lock down a much larger portion of the screen. He can control horizontal, vertical, and diagonal space. Sagat controls more space than Ryu does. So does Gouken, they keep their opponent in a position that's advantageous to them. |
|
|
|
Post by gurpwnder on Nov 14, 2014 1:47:53 GMT -5
Does a grappler not control the space right in front of his / her face? If not 'control', then at least dominate.
I'd call what you're describing 'keepaway'.
|
|
The Big Daddy C-Master
Big Daddy
Living life to the fullest, and it feels great.
I'm still here... for now...
Posts: 26,387
|
Post by The Big Daddy C-Master on Nov 14, 2014 2:59:43 GMT -5
Does a grappler not control the space right in front of his / her face? If not 'control', then at least dominate. I'd call what you're describing 'keepaway'. Is every character with a grab a grappler character? No, because they don't specialize in grabbing the opponent, nor do they have the other traits of a grappler. By that argument then any character with a dp is zoning you in close quarters. You're really not controlling your opponents movements and locking them down in the same way; rushing down and grappling is more about putting pressure on your opponent than controlling screen space. Keep away is a form of zoning but not the only type of zoning. Zangief is actually very weak to zoning due to his large size and lack of mobility, it's easy to predict his movement and lock him down, Chun Li, Dhalsim, Sagat, etc all do this. Hence why those are bad matchups for him. Goro Daimon in Kof xiii can zone and grapple due to his normals having extremely good reach and hitboxes and his speed being solid, he can control the space in front and across from him really well until he gets you into his grab game. Kof is a better example for this since SF is simply too one dimensional to really make sense of. |
|
|
|
Post by gurpwnder on Nov 14, 2014 19:02:06 GMT -5
I define it as controlling space and keeping your opponent where you want them. This is what we agreed zoning was. A character who needs to get in (like T.Hawk from Street Fighter or Johnny Cage from Mortal Kombat) and manages to stick to their opponent like glue (by successfully doing moves like Hawk's LP SPD and Cage's F3 pressure) is keeping their opponent where they want to be, yeah? T.Hawk and Johnny Cage have a multitude of moves that are among the best of their class at a close range, so I'd say that they 'control' the area right in front of them. They satisfy both conditions of our agreed definition of zoning assuming they get in on their opponent and keep their opponent right next to them at all times. So how is this not zoning? |
|
The Big Daddy C-Master
Big Daddy
Living life to the fullest, and it feels great.
I'm still here... for now...
Posts: 26,387
|
Post by The Big Daddy C-Master on Nov 15, 2014 7:57:51 GMT -5
I define it as controlling space and keeping your opponent where you want them. This is what we agreed zoning was. A character who needs to get in (like T.Hawk from Street Fighter or Johnny Cage from Mortal Kombat) and manages to stick to their opponent like glue (by successfully doing moves like Hawk's LP SPD and Cage's F3 pressure) is keeping their opponent where they want to be, yeah? T.Hawk and Johnny Cage have a multitude of moves that are among the best of their class at a close range, so I'd say that they 'control' the area right in front of them. They satisfy both conditions of our agreed definition of zoning assuming they get in on their opponent and keep their opponent right next to them at all times. So how is this not zoning? Your comment became really general when you said that every opponent wants to keep their opponent in a position that's good for them. Well of course, a lot of which is done psychologically, Zangief wants you to be close, and Dhalsim wants you to be far away, but Zangief loses that battle because he simply doesn't control space as well. Some characters can be good at controlling space and still be good up front, like Akuma. Daimon from Kof is a great zoner. He can control a huge amount of space on the screen and still have a scary up close mix up game. Simply putting your opponent where you want doesn't mean it's a zoning style character anymore than having a grab makes you a grapplerl |
|
|
|
Post by gurpwnder on Nov 15, 2014 18:15:32 GMT -5
Then do you have a new, updated definition of 'zoning'?
Also, yeah, there are always characters who specialize in close range combat, but can defend themselves from afar and vice versa.
A lot of what you're describing to me sounds like keepaway. Sure, Clark and Daimon can play keepout with their great normals and still control the area in front of them with their amazing close quarters moves.
I think of characters like Goro and Astaroth's long range moves as a 'tax' that other close range characters have to pay to get in on them. You're not going to keep them out forever with those long range moves, but you can pester them and take some life as they try and get in (which is also Astaroth's best range).
Back on topic, sustained keepout is just that: keepout. Rushdown is the opposite of keepout. If you take zoning to only mean 'keepout', why does it need its own term?
Zoning has always meant 'keeping your opponent where you want them' to me. Why does that only apply to 'where you keep them OUT'?
|
|
The Big Daddy C-Master
Big Daddy
Living life to the fullest, and it feels great.
I'm still here... for now...
Posts: 26,387
|
Post by The Big Daddy C-Master on Nov 16, 2014 2:06:37 GMT -5
Then do you have a new, updated definition of 'zoning'? Also, yeah, there are always characters who specialize in close range combat, but can defend themselves from afar and vice versa. A lot of what you're describing to me sounds like keepaway. Sure, Clark and Daimon can play keepout with their great normals and still control the area in front of them with their amazing close quarters moves. I think of characters like Goro and Astaroth's long range moves as a 'tax' that other close range characters have to pay to get in on them. You're not going to keep them out forever with those long range moves, but you can pester them and take some life as they try and get in (which is also Astaroth's best range). Back on topic, sustained keepout is just that: keepout. Rushdown is the opposite of keepout. If you take zoning to only mean 'keepout', why does it need its own term? Zoning has always meant 'keeping your opponent where you want them' to me. Why does that only apply to 'where you keep them OUT'? Well I'm not sure if you're calling them zoning characters or whatever else. I mean Dhalsim can rushdown but he's very poor at it. You can control space with Sakura, but she's bad at that too. You were talking about "zoning" characters, so I wasn't sure if you were implying if any characters who wants to put their opponent in an advantageous position is zoning. Every character wants to put their opponent in a position that's advantageous to them. They might not be zoning though, they could be just using their high mobility or something else to get there. There is some distinction. |
|
