SUPER SMASH BROS. GIVES ZERO SUIT SAMUS NEW OUTFIT

[gurpwnder]

Then let's get all the analogies out of the way. 

Zoning: keeping your opponent where you want them to be.
Keepaway: keeping your opponent away from you.

Are we in agreement thus far?

[The Big Daddy C-Master]

Nov 16, 2014 2:28:16 GMT -5 gurpwnder said:

Then let's get all the analogies out of the way. 

Zoning: keeping your opponent where you want them to be.
Keepaway: keeping your opponent away from you.

Are we in agreement thus far?

Controlling space sounds good.

[gurpwnder]

For what? Zoning or keepaway? Or both?

[The Big Daddy C-Master]

Nov 16, 2014 18:33:28 GMT -5 gurpwnder said:

For what? Zoning or keepaway? Or both?

Controlling space is used in both.

[gurpwnder]

What differentiates them then, according to you? 

[The Big Daddy C-Master]

Nov 17, 2014 1:03:35 GMT -5 gurpwnder said:

What differentiates them then, according to you? 

Well the way you explained zoning to me sounded like you were saying everything is zoning because you change the position of yourself and your opponent. By that definition, everything is zoning. Unless you were saying something else.

[gurpwnder]

Why can't it?

If a close range character consistently keeps you in their face, you are constantly where they want you to be. They are zoning you. If you go mid-screen to fullscreen, you are not where they want you. They are no longer zoning you.

Likewise, if a long range character consistently keeps you away from them, you are constantly where they want you to be. They are zoning you. If you go up to their face, you are not where they want you. They are no longer zoning you.

Obviously this only applies to keepaway VS rushdown. A matchup between 2 rushdowns or 2 keepaway characters would mean that one player needs to better control their preferred space.

[The Big Daddy C-Master]

Nov 17, 2014 3:09:19 GMT -5 gurpwnder said:

Why can't it?

If a close range character consistently keeps you in their face, you are constantly where they want you to be. They are zoning you. If you go mid-screen to fullscreen, you are not where they want you. They are no longer zoning you.

Likewise, if a long range character consistently keeps you away from them, you are constantly where they want you to be. They are zoning you. If you go up to their face, you are not where they want you. They are no longer zoning you.

Obviously this only applies to keepaway VS rushdown. A matchup between 2 rushdowns or 2 keepaway characters would mean that one player needs to better control their preferred space.

Isn't everything zoning by that definition? I wouldn't consider chasing someone across the screen zoning them no more than I would consider running away zoning. Vice's sleeve allows her to bring people close to her for a grab, so that could be a form of zoning. I don't think that everything is zoning more than I think that everything is rushdown.

They might be zoning even if they aren't doing it well. They might not be able to zone past some or your moves or they might not be skilled at it compared to their opponent, so there's also that.

[gurpwnder]

Nov 17, 2014 8:03:38 GMT -5 The Big Daddy C-Master said:

Nov 17, 2014 3:09:19 GMT -5 gurpwnder said:

Isn't everything zoning by that definition? I wouldn't consider chasing someone across the screen zoning them no more than I would consider running away zoning. Vice's sleeve allows her to bring people close to her for a grab, so that could be a form of zoning. I don't think that everything is zoning more than I think that everything is rushdown.

They might be zoning even if they aren't doing it well. They might not be able to zone past some or your moves or they might not be skilled at it compared to their opponent, so there's also that.

Yeah, anything can be zoning by that definition. As long as you consistently keep your opponent where you want them. If you satisfy both those requirements, I'd classify it as zoning.

[The Big Daddy C-Master]

Dec 3, 2014 3:33:31 GMT -5 gurpwnder said:

Nov 17, 2014 8:03:38 GMT -5 The Big Daddy C-Master said:

Isn't everything zoning by that definition? I wouldn't consider chasing someone across the screen zoning them no more than I would consider running away zoning. Vice's sleeve allows her to bring people close to her for a grab, so that could be a form of zoning. I don't think that everything is zoning more than I think that everything is rushdown.

They might be zoning even if they aren't doing it well. They might not be able to zone past some or your moves or they might not be skilled at it compared to their opponent, so there's also that.

Yeah, anything can be zoning by that definition. As long as you consistently keep your opponent where you want them. If you satisfy both those requirements, I'd classify it as zoning.

If the definition encompasses anything, then it's not really defining anything. Which is why it isn't a good definition IMO.

[gurpwnder]

It's not super helpful if 'zoning' and 'keepaway' are synonymous either.

[The Big Daddy C-Master]

Dec 5, 2014 4:36:27 GMT -5 gurpwnder said:

It's not super helpful if 'zoning' and 'keepaway' are synonymous either.

There should be distinctions in how the neutral game works. Keepaway, rushdown, zoning, and turtling are all different types of play.

[gurpwnder]

Keepaway, Turtling and Zoning.

How do you distinguish these 3 terms?

[The Big Daddy C-Master]

Dec 12, 2014 0:08:25 GMT -5 gurpwnder said:

Keepaway, Turtling and Zoning.

How do you distinguish these 3 terms?

Turtling is just beng extremely defensive. Not even actively defensive like Kof, but a very passive defensive, like what you see in SF4 (down back, crouch tech mashing, etc.)

We've already covered the other two.

[gurpwnder]

Turtling = blocking
Keepaway = stay away from me
Zoning = stay where I want you

The second 2 are the same thing, yeah? I want you away from me.

[The Big Daddy C-Master]

Dec 12, 2014 2:04:52 GMT -5 gurpwnder said:

Turtling = blocking
Keepaway = stay away from me
Zoning = stay where I want you

The second 2 are the same thing, yeah? I want you away from me.

Zoning could also incorporate a lockdown type play as well. Something you don't see much in SF mind you.

[JACK-2]

Yeah, Zoning specifically Lockdown is prominent in many older fighters.

[The Big Daddy C-Master]

Dec 12, 2014 4:36:14 GMT -5 JACK-2 said:

Yeah, Zoning specifically Lockdown is prominent in many older fighters.

Duo Lon plays a hell of a lockdown type of game while also having crazy good rushdown. He can even bring you towards him with a far ranged attack.

[gurpwnder]

Dec 12, 2014 4:31:04 GMT -5 The Big Daddy C-Master said:

Dec 12, 2014 2:04:52 GMT -5 gurpwnder said:

Turtling = blocking
Keepaway = stay away from me
Zoning = stay where I want you

The second 2 are the same thing, yeah? I want you away from me.

Zoning could also incorporate a lockdown type play as well. Something you don't see much in SF mind you.

Lockdown = keeping you away from me = zoning = consistent keepaway. I'm still not seeing the distinction, unless the word 'zoning' just means 'CONSISTENT keepaway'

[The Big Daddy C-Master]

Dec 13, 2014 0:19:07 GMT -5 gurpwnder said:

Dec 12, 2014 4:31:04 GMT -5 The Big Daddy C-Master said:

Zoning could also incorporate a lockdown type play as well. Something you don't see much in SF mind you.

Lockdown = keeping you away from me = zoning = consistent keepaway. I'm still not seeing the distinction, unless the word 'zoning' just means 'CONSISTENT keepaway'

Lockdown is just keeping you from moving. Duo Lon can lock you down and bring you close to him. Vice can bring you close to her too. I think you're seeing it too much from an SF perspective where people play more one dimensionally.

[gurpwnder]

Dec 13, 2014 3:34:55 GMT -5 The Big Daddy C-Master said:

Dec 13, 2014 0:19:07 GMT -5 gurpwnder said:

Lockdown = keeping you away from me = zoning = consistent keepaway. I'm still not seeing the distinction, unless the word 'zoning' just means 'CONSISTENT keepaway'

Lockdown is just keeping you from moving. Duo Lon can lock you down and bring you close to him. Vice can bring you close to her too. I think you're seeing it too much from an SF perspective where people play more one dimensionally.

I'm not thinking about any game at all, just definitions. 
I actually don't play SF that much. I'm more of a Smash Bros guy.

[The Big Daddy C-Master]

Dec 13, 2014 4:39:19 GMT -5 gurpwnder said:

Dec 13, 2014 3:34:55 GMT -5 The Big Daddy C-Master said:

Lockdown is just keeping you from moving. Duo Lon can lock you down and bring you close to him. Vice can bring you close to her too. I think you're seeing it too much from an SF perspective where people play more one dimensionally.

I'm not thinking about any game at all, just definitions. 
I actually don't play SF that much. I'm more of a Smash Bros guy.

Yea I saw your Steam thing.

Kof characters work much better since they fulfill many roles simultaneously.

[gurpwnder]

I'm not thinking of any game when I say lockdown and zoning sound very similar though.

[The Big Daddy C-Master]

Dec 14, 2014 15:08:33 GMT -5 gurpwnder said:

I'm not thinking of any game when I say lockdown and zoning sound very similar though.

I think lockdown is a more specific approach is all.

[gurpwnder]

Lockdown says "keeping your opponent locked in a specific part of the screen", whether that be full screen away from you, or in the corner, unable to escape (or approach), which also really sounds similar to 'zoning' to me.

[The Big Daddy C-Master]

Dec 15, 2014 1:21:19 GMT -5 gurpwnder said:

Lockdown says "keeping your opponent locked in a specific part of the screen", whether that be full screen away from you, or in the corner, unable to escape (or approach), which also really sounds similar to 'zoning' to me.

A character can lock you down from a rushdown style approach. Those characters are usually seen in faster paced games though.

[gurpwnder]

Yeah, like Johnny Cage in MK9 with his F3 pressure.

But that example right there, the one I just illustrated, is why I question the term 'zoning'. Johnny cage is locking you down in his face and is keeping you right where he wants you to be, in his face, while sticking to you like glue and racking up insane amounts of chip damage and meter.

Zoning is often described to me as 'keeping your opponent where you want them to be', and JC is keeping you right there, locked down and right where he wants you to be. Why is he not 'zoning' you?

[The Big Daddy C-Master]

Dec 25, 2014 1:46:13 GMT -5 gurpwnder said:

Yeah, like Johnny Cage in MK9 with his F3 pressure.

But that example right there, the one I just illustrated, is why I question the term 'zoning'. Johnny cage is locking you down in his face and is keeping you right where he wants you to be, in his face, while sticking to you like glue and racking up insane amounts of chip damage and meter.

Zoning is often described to me as 'keeping your opponent where you want them to be', and JC is keeping you right there, locked down and right where he wants you to be. Why is he not 'zoning' you?

Sometimes a character can lock you down and not have you in an optimal spot. Sometimes they are locking you down to get where they need to be. That can also happen.

[gurpwnder]

What about my example though?

[The Big Daddy C-Master]

Dec 25, 2014 3:17:55 GMT -5 gurpwnder said:

What about my example though?

Sounds like rushdown more to me personally. Are you trying to control them or open them up?