The Big Daddy C-Master
Big Daddy 
Living life to the fullest, and it feels great.
I'm still here... for now...
Posts: 26,387
|
Post by The Big Daddy C-Master on Jan 10, 2015 14:51:07 GMT -5
Yeah, but sonic required well time platforming at first. He didn't get the double jump until sonic 3. Tails and Knuckles was alot easier to get those paths from the the get go. Well Tails couldn't fly until 3 and you can't even use Knuckles in the first one so it's a non issue in regards to that. The third game gave them all different abilities and supported all of them. Sonic was the fastest and had the best shields. Tails could fly but was slower and couldn't turn super unless he had all emeralds, and Knuckles could glide, break walls, and climb, but he was slower than Sonic and had a low jump. Then you had hyper sonic who had a crazy double jump and insane speed. Super tails had assistant flickies helping him, and Knuckles could cause earthquakes. You can't just fly past all of the levels like you can in Mario. Mario's stages were really flat and linear and you could simply get a cape, hat, or blue yoshi and literally bypass the entire stage. Sonic never really had that due to the level design. There were several walls and secret areas you'd miss doing that (which Mario didn't have much of) and also it was easier just to blow through it running if you wanted speed since flying and gliding were slow. |
|
|
|
Post by JACK-2 on Jan 10, 2015 14:56:56 GMT -5
Well Tails couldn't fly until 3 and you can't even use Knuckles in the first one so it's a non issue in regards to that. The third game gave them all different abilities and supported all of them. Sonic was the fastest and had the best shields. Tails could fly but was slower and couldn't turn super unless he had all emeralds, and Knuckles could glide, break walls, and climb, but he was slower than Sonic and had a low jump. Then you had hyper sonic who had a crazy double jump and insane speed. Super tails had assistant flickies helping him, and Knuckles could cause earthquakes. You can't just fly past all of the levels like you can in Mario. Mario's stages were really flat and linear and you could simply get a cape, hat, or blue yoshi and literally bypass the entire stage. Sonic never really had that due to the level design. There were several walls and secret areas you'd miss doing that (which Mario didn't have much of) and also it was easier just to blow through it running if you wanted speed since flying and gliding were slow. I See. What I mean't was that sonic was the only one where if you made a mistake in platforming you branched into another path versus Tails and knuckles. I'm wrong about it being like Mario because of the level design. However, the branching paths were easier for tails and knuckles in the games they could fly and glide respectively. |
|
The Big Daddy C-Master
Big Daddy
Living life to the fullest, and it feels great.
I'm still here... for now...
Posts: 26,387
|
Post by The Big Daddy C-Master on Jan 10, 2015 15:18:13 GMT -5
Well Tails couldn't fly until 3 and you can't even use Knuckles in the first one so it's a non issue in regards to that. The third game gave them all different abilities and supported all of them. Sonic was the fastest and had the best shields. Tails could fly but was slower and couldn't turn super unless he had all emeralds, and Knuckles could glide, break walls, and climb, but he was slower than Sonic and had a low jump. Then you had hyper sonic who had a crazy double jump and insane speed. Super tails had assistant flickies helping him, and Knuckles could cause earthquakes. You can't just fly past all of the levels like you can in Mario. Mario's stages were really flat and linear and you could simply get a cape, hat, or blue yoshi and literally bypass the entire stage. Sonic never really had that due to the level design. There were several walls and secret areas you'd miss doing that (which Mario didn't have much of) and also it was easier just to blow through it running if you wanted speed since flying and gliding were slow. I See. What I mean't was that sonic was the only one where if you made a mistake in platforming you branched into another path versus Tails and knuckles. I'm wrong about it being like Mario because of the level design. However, the branching paths were easier for tails and knuckles in the games they could fly and glide respectively. I thought that the branching paths helped him out actually. He could get to different areas without having to fly. Spin dash up a hill and then jump and you got powerups. You also had springs, levers, pulleys, and other ways to get to the high road. They weren't locked out for him. Naturally Knuckles had an advantage when it came to exploration, but Sonic was the fastest. If he had a lightning shield he could get around wonderfully. |
|
|
|
Post by gurpwnder on Jan 11, 2015 0:36:17 GMT -5
Hey man, I left the videos out as to not stretch the page out. 1) Your views on Lost World. You say, and I quote, "Lost World has the traditional speed gaining of traditional Sonic". What an absolutely SEVERE stretch you're making here. It's not really a stretch at all because without boost the way sonic gains speed goes back to what it originally was. You compare a game where speed was earned through momentum from long stretches of road or rolling down inclines. Momentum that had to be skillfully retained if you wished to continue going fast through the level. Speed that was cut and had to be earned again as soon as you touched a wall. Speed that was severely cut when running up hills. Speed that legitimately took some time and effort to build. You say that that is comparable to Lost World, where I hold the B button, flick the analogue stick forward and I'm at max speed?What are you talking about man? Flick the analogue stick forward? To get max speed you needed the spin-dash. . .just like Sonic 2 and onwards. There's no difference between how spin-dash works in this game versus the others. The only thing that is different is sonic can't enter a rolling state at will. You are REALLY going to have to explain this connection you think these two games have, because I'm not seeing it. You just explained it for me. There is no boost therefore unlike generations in order to gain momentum you needed to rely on: Spin-dash, the environment, speed shows, springs and boosters that the level provided. You can't reach max speed with the run button. Next you say, and I quote, "That's the 3-D sections, though. 2-D sections have branching paths." Now you have all the evidence you could possibly wish for. Of all that, find me ONE that resembles this: soniczone0.com/games/sonic2/downloads/s2-cpz-act2map.png or even has a SINGLE branching pathway to another section of the level. One, okay here @1:30: You can see the alternative path to the left. Let me help you out. There are NO branching pathways in Sonic Lost World that lead to other pathways through 2D sections. There is only a single path that Sonic can take. There may be 5 platforms above Sonic that may contain a life / red ring at the end, but Sonic is then put back onto the main, solitary path. The claim you made above is absolutely wrong. I admitted before that the paths aren't as good as the other Sonic games and that they eventually take you back to the main path. But, there are some variations that don't lead to just Red rings. See the above video The only positive thing I have read from you regarding Sonic Lost World is that you like the platforming. Let me say this: Even if the platforming in Sonic Lost World is the greatest platforming of all time (and it most certainly is not), I am unhappy because the platforming is not SONIC. Flat, blocky level design is akin to what you would find in any Mario game, not Sonic. Planetoid hopping is what Mario just did on both his 3D Wii titles. The rest of Sonic Lost World's level design is incredibly flat and blocky, with minimal (borderline nonexistent) branching pathways. For that reason, I will never see eye to eye with you on Sonic Lost World's platforming. But, we do agree. The branching paths aren't as good as say generations. We've seen eye to eye multiple times in this thread minus a few differences. This is a good discussion. 2) Knuckles in Adventure 1 You say that boxing Knuckles into an arena is bad while I say it's good. Can you imagine Knuckles in an open environment with his Adventure abilities? He would absolutely break every open level by just climbing up to a high vantage point and gliding around. Remember that this was a Dreamcast game. They would have to expand the boundaries of each level to insane lengths to accommodate Knuckles because all he would need to do is find the highest vantage point and glide wherever he pleased, and the levels would need to handle every possible area he wished to go to. The Dreamcast would obviously be unable to accommodate Knuckles' abilities to glide into the level boundaries (and climb the boundary walls). The obvious solution would be to nerf Knuckles' ability to climb walls or his glide, which would have made fans unhappy. I'm happy that he made the translation to Sonic Adventure with all the athleticism I've come to expect from Knuckles from S3+K. But, he's always done that in Sonic. Remember knuckles in Sonic 2? What about tails? You could flyover to the most optimal path rather than platforming. I don't think having him search for gems fixes this. Then again, I never liked playing as knuckles or tails because their gameplay does not compliment Sonics momentum based platforming. Ahh the spin dash, how often you've kept falling back to this line of defense... Let's nip this one in the bud right here, right now. The purpose of me bringing up the difference in RUNNING to top speed is to indicate the difference in the games' physics. Sonic 1, 2, 3+K and CD were games where momentum was EARNED. Now I hear you say "Gurpinder, Gurpinder, spin dash and you're at max speed lol". Let's stop for a second and actually consider WHY the spin dash was even invented. Just take a second and notice that pit. Sonic from Sonic 1 would effectively be stuck in that pit, unable to get out (assuming that there were no platforms). The reason why the spin dash was invented was because Classic Sonic physics actually made it very hard for players to run up an incline if they lost their momentum. The spin dash was invented so that players could, having lost their momentum, still be able to go up inclines, which allowed the level design in 2, 3+K and CD to bloom and expand on the level design from Sonic 1. By adding in a run button, you've limited Sonic to 3 very DISTINCT speeds. Walk. Run. Spin Dash. The run button is a MODIFIER. Sonic is no longer about momentum like his classic self. If he is at a dead stop, he will be at his max running speed one or two steps later and this speed will be fixed at that level when you hold down the run button. If Sonic Lost World spin dashes, he will travel a fixed speed determined by the game. Classic Sonic can roll down hills and build so much momentum that he can outrun the screen should be play his cards right. The only alternate modifier Lost Worlds has come in the form of boost pads and springs, which automate the game. Also, you say that this game needs Sonic to depend on the environment, when the levels are so consistently flat? Really? Unless you mean the copious amounts of boost pads, which automate the game. Sure, the game's not so bad when you don't have to play it. Next, let's deal with the 'alternate path' you found. First, let's talk about the fact that you have given me ONE DETOUR. ONE DETOUR. Can you say with a straight face that that SINGLE section allows you to say Sonic Lost Worlds' 2D sections resemble this: soniczone0.com/games/sonic2/downloads/s2-cpz-act2map.png or even this: www.segabits.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/09/Untitled-11.jpg ?!Next, let's talk about the fact that the only example you could provide me is in the 5th out of 7 worlds. What happened to the rest? I recall you saying that Sonic Lost Worlds levelS resembled those of the classic games. C'mon, gimme more then. Surely you can do better than 6 seconds of a level with a bold claim like that.Finally, let's look at this little thing you found. You take some springs to a higher platform. You run on it for 6 seconds and then you're put back onto the main path. That's not an alternate path, that's a detour.I'm not saying the branching pathways are 'bad'. I'm calling them NONEXISTENT. I'm saying that the fact that there are none spits in the face of Sonic design. The fact that you tried to compare Lost Worlds to Classic Sonic is an act of madness. I didn't pick up a Sonic game to put him through levels that belong in a Mario game, I sat down to play SONIC, dammit. The fact that this game fails to provide me with Sonic gameplay is pure and utter shlock.Knuckles in SONIC ADVENTURE.
Again, your comparison makes no sense. Tails can fly for a limited period of time, then he drops. Knuckles can glide indefinitely and glides at a very horizontal angle. If you give Knuckles a decent enough vantage point, he could get to areas that Tails could not, considering that Tails needs to land on platforms to regain his stamina while Knuckles just keeps on gliding.
In Adventure, Tails' goal wasn't to clear the level. It was to beat Sonic and Eggman to the goal BY USING his ability to fly so I really don't know what you're saying when you say "What about tails? You could flyover to the most optimal path rather than platforming." Knuckles' potential mobility exceeds Tails and Sonic by such a great deal, that levels would have to have their boundaries stretched to insane levels to accommodate his ability to glide indefinitely. By boxing Knuckles in, the beast is contained and hunting for Emeralds is true to his character, considering that's the reason he's even in Sonic and Knuckles.
Do you know WHY Knuckles works in 2D, but not in 3D? The level design ensures that Knuckles is limited by various walls and inclines. Look at this map: soniczone0.com/games/sonicandknuckles/downloads/sk-ssz-act1map.png or this: soniczone0.com/games/sonicandknuckles/downloads/sk-mhz-act2map.png. Tell me where Knuckles gliding can break the game. He can't. He is limited by the walls of the level design. Now look here: . As soon as Knuckles exits the building, what's stopping him from jumping off and gliding left until he reaches the level boundaries? Before you say "Tails", I've already talked about that above. Tails can fly for a couple seconds, but the duration of flight is short and his horizontal movement is limited as he drops. Knuckles can climb the building to go above Tails' highest point, jump off and glide horizontally indefinitely. Knuckles just will not work in Sonic stages, simple as that.
Also, I now question your line of thinking. Knuckles and Tails, who handle almost IDENTICALLY to Sonic in S3+K are too different and unplayable (Tails can is slightly slower than Sonic with the ability to fly, Knuckles is slower and has a lower jump balanced with the ability to glide and wall climb), but snowball Sonic, Wisps, 2D freefall are just 'ehh, no big deal, Lost Worlds is still a good game'?
|
|
|
|
Post by gurpwnder on Jan 11, 2015 1:35:24 GMT -5
3) The homing attack You seem to think that I agree with you that the homing attack in this game is good for anything at all (you say for I agree that it is good clearing out clusters of enemies when I did not). Well, you agree'd that the arc makes sense to destroy enemy clusters in this post:  Like I mentioned. Here are my thoughts on the homing attack in Lost World: Sonic targets multiple enemies now, which means that Sonic can fly somewhere and attack a distant enemy and I can lose my footing. Because of my lack of control, this new homing attack is inferior to the old homing attack. With the old homing attack, all I had to do was mash a button and the horde of enemies was gone in a couple seconds anyways. It automatically targets the next enemy, but you have to tap a button in order to attack. You have to position yourself where you want to be before doing a homing chain. The reason why it targets enemies from across the screen is because Sonic has a projectile. You're also probably going to say that the kick allowed for more creative enemy design. The Dreamcast games already introduced electrified enemies in the air that hurt you if you hit them while they were emitting sparks. That was good enough for me. Whether it's a shield, electricity, etc, all those designs just means the player needs to wait for the enemy to expose themselves to attack before attacking them. I don't see what the kick attack ADDS. The enemy clusters and the electric enemies in this game are different. You can't wait out these electric enemies because they exist in mid air while you're chaining homing attackings:  They'll toss these enemy types out while you're using a homing attack to clear a gap. But, it is not the same because you can't wait out anything in midair during homing attack chain in the older games. Even with a single enemy, the new homing attack manages to disappoint. What charges it up? At 9:40. Why is Sonic unable to target the boss when he did the exact same thing to attack him twice earlier? Why is it so inconsistent? I think he was in an invincible animation. I don't get this powered up homing attack thing, tbh. The regular targeting is fine, nut the powered up ones are strange. You're probably going to bring up the kick attack, but this brings up another problem with Lost World's control scheme. Kick and bounce are the same button. Need to kick an enemy's attack projectile back at them over a bottomless pit (Yes, that does happen)? Better hope the game targets the projectile accurately enough. Again, this poor control choice stings of disappointment, because this is the same mistake that SA2 made. Bounce and light speed dash were the same button, so whether you soared across a trail of rings or fell into the pit when pressing the button was anyone's guess. Actually, my opinion was it was too bloated. But, the games homing attack is built for multifuctionality, but there is too much mapped into the homing button. You've shown me that I acknowledged why it arcs. I did that. I know that. You did not show me a single instance of me agreeing to this P.O.S homing attack being good for anything. That's because I never did. All right, now over to question number 2: Explain this phenomena to me: Why could he not target the enemy? Why did the reticule show up as he was making contact with the enemy? By automating the homing attack like this, control is taken away from the player. If we had MANUAL control over the homing attack (Sonic Adventure), then the enemy could be defeated with no problem. I think Sonic Adventure style's homing attack could create more interesting ways to defeat clusters. What if every enemy in a chain was an electrified enemy and you had to wait for each one to finish its attack before attacking the next enemy? Stuff like that could make the mindless homing attack mashing sections more engaging to the player. Sonic Lost World tried to change what was already fine. Did it succeed in any aspect in my opinion? No. The automatic charging system is now awkward and unreliable (shown in the above video and in the post before). The fact that it can kill multiple enemies means as a player, I'm even LESS engaged, since I press one button and every enemy within a nearby vicinity is defeated. The fact that it can be charged might mean something, but with the awkward homing reticule, it's something I will definitely not miss. Also, bosses are defeatable in 2 hits. What the hell...? The fact that there's a kick attack complicates what was a simple, yet effective method of attack, and I disapprove of that, too. (I'll tackle the rest of the points of your previous essay after I can convince you that each and every aspect of Sonic Lost World is utter shlock, starting with the level design and homing attack.) |
|
|
|
Post by JACK-2 on Jan 11, 2015 3:47:13 GMT -5
All of these make it easy to go to optimal paths that you missed because now you could climb back from where you fell off. Knuckles in Sonic 2 is a great example of this. Tails in Angel Island is even worst because he always has the optimal path. It's simply too easy to get to where you need to get. Not game breaking, but easy.
Was talking about megadrive when I brought up tails, though.
He can climb walls and basically glide from wall to wall.
|
|
|
|
Post by JACK-2 on Jan 11, 2015 4:10:02 GMT -5
Actually, now that I think about it the point you made about the flat level design is true. If we compares this Sonics gameplay with all the other Sonics from other games. Ignoring the other characters gameplay. This is the worst Sonic gameplay. Adventure had solid Sonic gameplay, heck the all did. But, this is the worst because the flat level designs. There's no momentum because everything is so flat and you can traverse the terrain by just holding down the run button. Also, you can never reach Sonics full speed because his max speed is only attainable via mach speed. That's really bad level design never mind the generic levels: Forest, Ice, Fire and Sand with some casino thrown in. I think Sonic Adventure style's homing attack could create more interesting ways to defeat clusters. What if every enemy in a chain was an electrified enemy and you had to wait for each one to finish its attack before attacking the next enemy? Stuff like that could make the mindless homing attack mashing sections more engaging to the player. The Homing attack though, is not really that bad. We can clear out various enemies and your example doesn't work. You can't wait it out because in the scenario I gave you're using the homing attacks chaining ability to clear a pit. The original Homing attack can't give you that option in mid-air like the new one does. Next, let's deal with the 'alternate path' you found. First, let's talk about the fact that you have given me ONE DETOUR. ONE DETOUR. Can you say with a straight face that that SINGLE section allows you to say Sonic Lost Worlds' 2D sections resemble this: soniczone0.com/games/sonic2/downloads/s2-cpz-act2map.png or even this: www.segabits.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/09/Untitled-11.jpg ?! Next, let's talk about the fact that the only example you could provide me is in the 5th out of 7 worlds. What happened to the rest? I recall you saying that Sonic Lost Worlds levelS resembled those of the classic games. C'mon, gimme more then. Surely you can do better than 6 seconds of a level with a bold claim like that. Finally, let's look at this little thing you found. You take some springs to a higher platform. You run on it for 6 seconds and then you're put back onto the main path. That's not an alternate path, that's a detour. I'm not saying the branching pathways are 'bad'. I'm calling them NONEXISTENT. I'm saying that the fact that there are none spits in the face of Sonic design. The fact that you tried to compare Lost Worlds to Classic Sonic is an act of madness. I didn't pick up a Sonic game to put him through levels that belong in a Mario game, I sat down to play SONIC, dammit. The fact that this game fails to provide me with Sonic gameplay is pure and utter shlock. I only looked for one, maybe there are more. But, that's not the issue now is it, you say it's a detour. But, I don't see the difference between it and the original Sonic game. Reason being is the branching paths ultimately end up converging eventually. I think the Sandolpolis has a branching path like the original sonic, though. |
|
The Big Daddy C-Master
Big Daddy
Living life to the fullest, and it feels great.
I'm still here... for now...
Posts: 26,387
|
Post by The Big Daddy C-Master on Jan 11, 2015 5:01:54 GMT -5
Any area that Tails and Knuckles could go (except when knuckles broke walls as some of his stages were different with the story in mind) Sonic could go to. Ropes, springs, etc. allowed him to get there.
I've never been able to just surpass the level by flying or gliding with either of them. Knuckles was not even specifically designed for S2 and came with an expansio. It didn't even happen there. There were some parts that rewarded you for gliding with 1 ups and the like. Also his low jump arc made the bosses harder.
|
|
The Big Daddy C-Master
Big Daddy
Living life to the fullest, and it feels great.
I'm still here... for now...
Posts: 26,387
|
Post by The Big Daddy C-Master on Jan 11, 2015 6:11:29 GMT -5
Any area that Tails and Knuckles could go (except when knuckles broke walls as some of his stages were different with the story in mind) Sonic could go to. Ropes, springs, etc. allowed him to get there.
I've never been able to just surpass the level by flying or gliding with either of them. Knuckles was not even specifically designed for S2 and came with an expansio. It didn't even happen there. There were some parts that rewarded you for gliding with 1 ups and the like. Also his low jump arc made the bosses harder.
Flying and gliding were more for exploration than anything.
|
|
|
|
Post by JACK-2 on Jan 11, 2015 13:35:16 GMT -5
Any area that Tails and Knuckles could go (except when knuckles broke walls as some of his stages were different with the story in mind) Sonic could go to. Ropes, springs, etc. allowed him to get there. I've never been able to just surpass the level by flying or gliding with either of them. Knuckles was not even specifically designed for S2 and came with an expansio. It didn't even happen there. There were some parts that rewarded you for gliding with 1 ups and the like. Also his low jump arc made the bosses harder. That's what I mean, its harder for sonic because he has to jump and what not. Flying battery zone is easier with tails for example. Knuckles too, the double jump electric shield was limited if you got hit. In Sonic 2 gliding was broke but that's because knuckles wasn't designed for it. |
|
The Big Daddy C-Master
Big Daddy
Living life to the fullest, and it feels great.
I'm still here... for now...
Posts: 26,387
|
Post by The Big Daddy C-Master on Jan 11, 2015 14:40:22 GMT -5
Any area that Tails and Knuckles could go (except when knuckles broke walls as some of his stages were different with the story in mind) Sonic could go to. Ropes, springs, etc. allowed him to get there. I've never been able to just surpass the level by flying or gliding with either of them. Knuckles was not even specifically designed for S2 and came with an expansio. It didn't even happen there. There were some parts that rewarded you for gliding with 1 ups and the like. Also his low jump arc made the bosses harder. That's what I mean, its harder for sonic because he has to jump and what not. Flying battery zone is easier with tails for example. Knuckles too, the double jump electric shield was limited if you got hit. In Sonic 2 gliding was broke but that's because knuckles wasn't designed for it. It's harder for Sonic to explore certain areas but the stage completion varied. Knuckles had harder stages and bosses. Tails could not turn Super. Super Sonic had a crazy jump and Hyper Sonic had an insane double jump. You can't simply fly through everything. It takes longer to play in that manner anyways. Not that flying didn't have it's advantages. Also Tails can pick up Sonic and fly him to vantage points. People only did that to access certain areas. Not to fly the game. What stages in Sonic 2 are you gliding through all of a stage? Many stages were indoors and the had walls all over them. Knuckles also struggled more with bosses because of his bad jump. Especially the last one. |
|
|
|
Post by JACK-2 on Jan 11, 2015 14:47:17 GMT -5
It's harder for Sonic to explore certain areas but the stage completion varied. True, it did vary but I liked the way things played out with Sonic. I prefer it harder if you feel me? Knuckles had harder stages and bosses. Tails could not turn Super. Super Sonic had a crazy jump and Hyper Sonic had an insane double jump. You can't simply fly through everything. It takes longer to play in that manner anyways. Not that flying didn't have it's advantages. Also Tails can pick up Sonic and fly him to vantage points. People only did that to access certain areas. Not to fly the game. Try knuckles in Sonic 2. He could get some serious air in Green Hill zone. But, not in Sonic 3&K of course. Yeah, the bosses in Sonic and Knuckles were harder for knuckles. In 3 they were slightly harder too, but not in 2. I generally played with Sonic alone. So, I never had tails helping me. Knuckles in Sonic 2 is broken. Tails isn't broken, but is easier with the vantage points. What stages in Sonic 2 are you gliding through all of a stage? Many stages were indoors and the had walls all over them. Knuckles also struggled more with bosses because of his bad jump. Especially the last one. Emerald hill Zone, Aquatic ruin Zone, Hilltop Zone, and Metropolis Zone are super easy with knuckles. The last one is very hard with Sonic and Green hill zone had some crazy vantage points. I'm exaggerating about the other games, but knuckles in Sonic 2 is too good. |
|
|
|
Post by JACK-2 on Jan 11, 2015 14:57:24 GMT -5
C, I marked the broken vantage point on the map for emerald hill with a black blemish.  |
|
The Big Daddy C-Master
Big Daddy
Living life to the fullest, and it feels great.
I'm still here... for now...
Posts: 26,387
|
Post by The Big Daddy C-Master on Jan 11, 2015 15:04:20 GMT -5
C, I marked the broken vantage point on the map for emerald hill with a black blemish. I mentioned that part and it's the *only* spot like that I recall in the whole game. It took like 30 seconds to climb in which you could have made it to the end since the glide is also very slow. Y ou also miss out on rings and emeralds this way. Compare this to Mario where you get a cap and fly the *entire* stage with a button press. Worse with Blue Yoshi and you can do this indefinitely too. Just keep using the shell. |
|
The Big Daddy C-Master
Big Daddy
Living life to the fullest, and it feels great.
I'm still here... for now...
Posts: 26,387
|
Post by The Big Daddy C-Master on Jan 11, 2015 15:12:34 GMT -5
It's harder for Sonic to explore certain areas but the stage completion varied. True, it did vary but I liked the way things played out with Sonic. I prefer it harder if you feel me? Knuckles had harder stages and bosses. Tails could not turn Super. Super Sonic had a crazy jump and Hyper Sonic had an insane double jump. You can't simply fly through everything. It takes longer to play in that manner anyways. Not that flying didn't have it's advantages. Also Tails can pick up Sonic and fly him to vantage points. People only did that to access certain areas. Not to fly the game. Try knuckles in Sonic 2. He could get some serious air in Green Hill zone. But, not in Sonic 3&K of course. Yeah, the bosses in Sonic and Knuckles were harder for knuckles. In 3 they were slightly harder too, but not in 2. I generally played with Sonic alone. So, I never had tails helping me. Knuckles in Sonic 2 is broken. Tails isn't broken, but is easier with the vantage points. What stages in Sonic 2 are you gliding through all of a stage? Many stages were indoors and the had walls all over them. Knuckles also struggled more with bosses because of his bad jump. Especially the last one. Emerald hill Zone, Aquatic ruin Zone, Hilltop Zone, and Metropolis Zone are super easy with knuckles. The last one is very hard with Sonic and Green hill zone had some crazy vantage points. I'm exaggerating about the other games, but knuckles in Sonic 2 is too good. That stage is really easy and you'll take longer doing that and miss out on stuff so I'd never do it for practical reasons. The other stages were not stages you could bypass because of all of the walls. Tails makes the game marginally easier. You have springs and a double jump and shields are easier to come by due to the bonus stages. You can also use Sonic's invincible attack to kill spiked enemies and bosses easier. Tails has a hard time with the boss of Marble Garden 2 because he has to use the propeller. I've done runs with all 3 and switch up for variety all of the time. It gave the game variety but didn't break it. Also the bosses with Knuckles often took more hits or attacked more often and Knuckles had a worse jump. Metropolis boss was harder for Knuckles and stage 9 and 10 were too. Stage 3 was also and Knuckles can't "ride" many bosses like Sonic can which means it takes him longer to kill them. Luigi's jump in classic Mario games gave him more of a boost since he really lost nothing. |
|
|
|
Post by JACK-2 on Jan 11, 2015 15:23:10 GMT -5
I mentioned that part and it's the *only* spot like that I recall in the whole game. It took like 30 seconds to climb in which you could have made it to the end since the glide is also very slow. Y ou also miss out on rings and emeralds this way. Compare this to Mario where you get a cap and fly the *entire* stage with a button press. Worse with Blue Yoshi and you can do this indefinitely too. Just keep using the shell. Good point, there are more exploits. But, missing the rings is a good point. I guess it is worst in mario. |
|
|
|
Post by JACK-2 on Jan 11, 2015 15:27:34 GMT -5
That stage is really easy and you'll take longer doing that and miss out on stuff so I'd never do it for practical reasons. The other stages were not stages you could bypass because of all of the walls. No, there are more stages where you could fly over certain parts. Look at marble hill zone with Knuckles. Tails makes the game marginally easier. You have springs and a double jump and shields are easier to come by due to the bonus stages. You can also use Sonic's invincible attack to kill spiked enemies and bosses easier. Tails has a hard time with the boss of Marble Garden 2 because he has to use the propeller. I've done runs with all 3 and switch up for variety all of the time. It gave the game variety but didn't break it. I still think knuckles in S2 is broken. Because there are too many instances where he can fly over stuff. Tails has Angel Island and I think that's it. I prefer Sonic because the branching is ultimately tied to pure platforming. Also the bosses with Knuckles often took more hits or attacked more often and Knuckles had a worse jump. Metropolis boss was harder for Knuckles and stage 9 and 10 were too. Stage 3 was also and Knuckles can't "ride" many bosses like Sonic can which means it takes him longer to kill them. Luigi's jump in classic Mario games gave him more of a boost since he really lost nothing. In Sonic 2 the only boss that gave knuckles problems was the Sky fortress boss because of jump issues. |
|
The Big Daddy C-Master
Big Daddy
Living life to the fullest, and it feels great.
I'm still here... for now...
Posts: 26,387
|
Post by The Big Daddy C-Master on Jan 11, 2015 15:48:05 GMT -5
That stage is really easy and you'll take longer doing that and miss out on stuff so I'd never do it for practical reasons. The other stages were not stages you could bypass because of all of the walls. No, there are more stages where you could fly over certain parts. Look at marble hill zone with Knuckles. Tails makes the game marginally easier. You have springs and a double jump and shields are easier to come by due to the bonus stages. You can also use Sonic's invincible attack to kill spiked enemies and bosses easier. Tails has a hard time with the boss of Marble Garden 2 because he has to use the propeller. I've done runs with all 3 and switch up for variety all of the time. It gave the game variety but didn't break it. I still think knuckles in S2 is broken. Because there are too many instances where he can fly over stuff. Tails has Angel Island and I think that's it. I prefer Sonic because the branching is ultimately tied to pure platforming. Also the bosses with Knuckles often took more hits or attacked more often and Knuckles had a worse jump. Metropolis boss was harder for Knuckles and stage 9 and 10 were too. Stage 3 was also and Knuckles can't "ride" many bosses like Sonic can which means it takes him longer to kill them. Luigi's jump in classic Mario games gave him more of a boost since he really lost nothing. In Sonic 2 the only boss that gave knuckles problems was the Sky fortress boss because of jump issues. Marble Hill? Much of that level took place underground. Also I think you're confusing platforming with Mario platforming. Mario's platforming was a lot more linear and you pretty much had to take the path and jump on those platforms. With Sonic you could run really fast and jump super high and bypass a lot of things. There was no "one way path" to play a stage. Knuckles "gliding over stuff" allowed him to find secrets (like bonus stages and special stages) it never allowed him to just fly past the entire stage. I mean I can upload a playthrough and even with Hyper Knuckles I couldn't do that. (I might just upload me playing). I mean if you like Sonic's approach you're welcome to do it, but his style was still momentum based and nothing like Mario's approach, if anything the very first game felt like Mario more because it had more "traditional platforming" but even that was different. In the later games they gave you more of a free approach which I love. Might just be a difference in taste. Knuckles could not beat most bosses as fast as Sonic. Sonic jumped high enough to ride most of the bosses, killing them in 1 go or maybe two reps. The last boss was away harder for Knuckles because Sonic could hit him as he was walking. Knuckles had to spend much more time because he could only hit him as he was landing which made it harder. He was also slower too. Stage 8 boss is high up and so was stage 9. Sonic had an easier time there as well. I mentioned that part and it's the *only* spot like that I recall in the whole game. It took like 30 seconds to climb in which you could have made it to the end since the glide is also very slow. Y ou also miss out on rings and emeralds this way. Compare this to Mario where you get a cap and fly the *entire* stage with a button press. Worse with Blue Yoshi and you can do this indefinitely too. Just keep using the shell. Good point, there are more exploits. But, missing the rings is a good point. I guess it is worst in mario. It's far, FAR worse. Being able to fly for extended periods of time over the stage as often as you want with a momentum increase in a linear stage setting is broken. Mario didn't really have walls and branching paths like Sonic did. |
|
|
|
Post by JACK-2 on Jan 11, 2015 15:59:17 GMT -5
Marble Hill? Much of that level took place underground. My bad, I m mean't Hilltop zone:  Also I think you're confusing platforming with Mario platforming. Mario's platforming was a lot more linear and you pretty much had to take the path and jump on those platforms. With Sonic you could run really fast and jump super high and bypass a lot of things. There was no "one way path" to play a stage. Knuckles "gliding over stuff" allowed him to find secrets (like bonus stages and special stages) it never allowed him to just fly past the entire stage. I mean I can upload a playthrough and even with Hyper Knuckles I couldn't do that. (I might just upload me playing). I mean if you like Sonic's approach you're welcome to do it, but his style was still momentum based and nothing like Mario's approach, if anything the very first game felt like Mario more because it had more "traditional platforming" but even that was different. In the later games they gave you more of a free approach which I love. Might just be a difference in taste. Well, maybe it is a difference. I understand that the three characters allow you to find optimum paths differently. I just think that Sonic's is harder because t requires more timed jumps rather than air time. Knuckles in Sonic 2 had too many good vantage points. I guess it's a fluke because in Sonic 3&K outside of Mushroom hill zone. Things aren't too exploitable like in Sonic 2 with knuckles. Mario is more linear, true. Knuckles could not beat most bosses as fast as Sonic. Sonic jumped high enough to ride most of the bosses, killing them in 1 go or maybe two reps. In Sonic 2, I don't see the difference tbh. The last boss was away harder for Knuckles because Sonic could hit him as he was walking. Knuckles had to spend much more time because he could only hit him as he was landing which made it harder. He was also slower too. Stage 8 boss is high up and so was stage 9. Sonic had an easier time there as well. he last boss in Sonic 2 is the same for everyone. The only boss that was harder for knuckles in Sonic 2 is the flying fortress boss tbh. Maybe metropolis zone boss, but that's it. It's far, FAR worse. Being able to fly for extended periods of time over the stage as often as you want with a momentum increase in a linear stage setting is broken. Mario didn't really have walls and branching paths like Sonic did. True, I agree it's more broken. But, in Sonic 2 the walls helped knuckles. I'll post more maps. |
|
The Big Daddy C-Master
Big Daddy
Living life to the fullest, and it feels great.
I'm still here... for now...
Posts: 26,387
|
Post by The Big Daddy C-Master on Jan 11, 2015 16:25:02 GMT -5
Marble Hill? Much of that level took place underground. My bad, I m mean't Hilltop zone: Also I think you're confusing platforming with Mario platforming. Mario's platforming was a lot more linear and you pretty much had to take the path and jump on those platforms. With Sonic you could run really fast and jump super high and bypass a lot of things. There was no "one way path" to play a stage. Knuckles "gliding over stuff" allowed him to find secrets (like bonus stages and special stages) it never allowed him to just fly past the entire stage. I mean I can upload a playthrough and even with Hyper Knuckles I couldn't do that. (I might just upload me playing). I mean if you like Sonic's approach you're welcome to do it, but his style was still momentum based and nothing like Mario's approach, if anything the very first game felt like Mario more because it had more "traditional platforming" but even that was different. In the later games they gave you more of a free approach which I love. Might just be a difference in taste. Well, maybe it is a difference. I understand that the three characters allow you to find optimum paths differently. I just think that Sonic's is harder because t requires more timed jumps rather than air time. Knuckles in Sonic 2 had too many good vantage points. I guess it's a fluke because in Sonic 3&K outside of Mushroom hill zone. Things aren't too exploitable like in Sonic 2 with knuckles. Mario is more linear, true. Knuckles could not beat most bosses as fast as Sonic. Sonic jumped high enough to ride most of the bosses, killing them in 1 go or maybe two reps. In Sonic 2, I don't see the difference tbh. The last boss was away harder for Knuckles because Sonic could hit him as he was walking. Knuckles had to spend much more time because he could only hit him as he was landing which made it harder. He was also slower too. Stage 8 boss is high up and so was stage 9. Sonic had an easier time there as well. he last boss in Sonic 2 is the same for everyone. The only boss that was harder for knuckles in Sonic 2 is the flying fortress boss tbh. Maybe metropolis zone boss, but that's it. It's far, FAR worse. Being able to fly for extended periods of time over the stage as often as you want with a momentum increase in a linear stage setting is broken. Mario didn't really have walls and branching paths like Sonic did. True, I agree it's more broken. But, in Sonic 2 the walls helped knuckles. I'll post more maps. You couldn't climb over the walls in Hilltop though. The advantage was very minimal if any. If you could climb those walls then yea, it would be braindead. Sonic wasn't about the type of "timed platforming" you see in Mario though. Yea you had certain jumping points, but you had to do those as Knuckles too. They only thing flying did was let you go to different parts of the stages in weird orders and find some extra lives (which were put there later). Most of the game played the same. Mushroom hill is exploitable? There wasn't really any holes to fall in on that stage. You keep forgetting that you have springs, pulleys, etc to allow Sonic to go where ever Knuckes can (outside of barriers he can walk through). There was a big difference in many bosses using Knuckles. Especially with the last one. Knuckles can't hit Robotnick while walking because he has to worry about the spikes. |
|
|
|
Post by gurpwnder on Jan 11, 2015 19:02:06 GMT -5
All of these make it easy to go to optimal paths that you missed because now you could climb back from where you fell off. Knuckles in Sonic 2 is a great example of this. Tails in Angel Island is even worst because he always has the optimal path. It's simply too easy to get to where you need to get. Not game breaking, but easy. Was talking about megadrive when I brought up tails, though. He can climb walls and basically glide from wall to wall. Knuckles wasn't designed for Sonic 2. That was a bonus, so this point is moot. Knuckles, with his current abilities, WOULD NOT WORK in a straightforward level in Sonic Adventure 1. Simple as that. Knuckles is all about Emerald Hunting in Adventure 1 because he would absolutely break most of Sonic's levels with his abilities. That is why I am fine with Knuckles being the way he is in Adventure 1. He's just as athletic as ever, retains his defining characteristic (along with additions), and is doing something that is true to his character, guarding the emeralds. The reason I am having this discussion with you is that you said Knuckles in Adventure 1 is terrible. I'm explaining to you why he is the way he is. |
|
|
|
Post by JACK-2 on Jan 11, 2015 19:04:09 GMT -5
Knuckles wasn't designed for Sonic 2. That was a bonus, so this point is moot. Knuckles, with his current abilities, WOULD NOT WORK in a straightforward level in Sonic Adventure 1. Simple as that. Knuckles is all about Emerald Hunting in Adventure 1 because he would absolutely break most of Sonic's levels with his abilities. That is why I am fine with Knuckles being the way he is in Adventure 1. He's just as athletic as ever, retains his defining characteristic (along with additions), and is doing something that is true to his character, guarding the emeralds. The reason I am having this discussion with you is that you said Knuckles in Adventure 1 is terrible. I'm explaining to you why he is the way he is. So, do you think knuckles works better in 2-D setting? Also, I know knuckles wasn't designed for Sonic 2 that's what C and I agree'd. I still don't like it, just because it fixes the game doesn't make it enjoyable. |
|
|
|
Post by gurpwnder on Jan 11, 2015 19:26:31 GMT -5
Actually, now that I think about it the point you made about the flat level design is true. If we compares this Sonics gameplay with all the other Sonics from other games. Ignoring the other characters gameplay. This is the worst Sonic gameplay. Adventure had solid Sonic gameplay, heck the all did. But, this is the worst because the flat level designs. There's no momentum because everything is so flat and you can traverse the terrain by just holding down the run button. Also, you can never reach Sonics full speed because his max speed is only attainable via mach speed. That's really bad level design never mind the generic levels: Forest, Ice, Fire and Sand with some casino thrown in. I think Sonic Adventure style's homing attack could create more interesting ways to defeat clusters. What if every enemy in a chain was an electrified enemy and you had to wait for each one to finish its attack before attacking the next enemy? Stuff like that could make the mindless homing attack mashing sections more engaging to the player. The Homing attack though, is not really that bad. We can clear out various enemies and your example doesn't work. You can't wait it out because in the scenario I gave you're using the homing attacks chaining ability to clear a pit. The original Homing attack can't give you that option in mid-air like the new one does. Next, let's deal with the 'alternate path' you found. First, let's talk about the fact that you have given me ONE DETOUR. ONE DETOUR. Can you say with a straight face that that SINGLE section allows you to say Sonic Lost Worlds' 2D sections resemble this: soniczone0.com/games/sonic2/downloads/s2-cpz-act2map.png or even this: www.segabits.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/09/Untitled-11.jpg ?! Next, let's talk about the fact that the only example you could provide me is in the 5th out of 7 worlds. What happened to the rest? I recall you saying that Sonic Lost Worlds levelS resembled those of the classic games. C'mon, gimme more then. Surely you can do better than 6 seconds of a level with a bold claim like that. Finally, let's look at this little thing you found. You take some springs to a higher platform. You run on it for 6 seconds and then you're put back onto the main path. That's not an alternate path, that's a detour. I'm not saying the branching pathways are 'bad'. I'm calling them NONEXISTENT. I'm saying that the fact that there are none spits in the face of Sonic design. The fact that you tried to compare Lost Worlds to Classic Sonic is an act of madness. I didn't pick up a Sonic game to put him through levels that belong in a Mario game, I sat down to play SONIC, dammit. The fact that this game fails to provide me with Sonic gameplay is pure and utter shlock. I only looked for one, maybe there are more. But, that's not the issue now is it, you say it's a detour. But, I don't see the difference between it and the original Sonic game. Reason being is the branching paths ultimately end up converging eventually. I think the Sandolpolis has a branching path like the original sonic, though. Wait. Have I done it? Have I actually convinced you that Sonic Lost Worlds is a bad Sonic game? I'm LOVING everything you said in your first line. The homing attack works pretty much perfectly in the Adventure games. You jump and you manually push the jump button again to boost forward. If there's an enemy nearby, Sonic will go after it. I like being in control, as I've said many times. I attack what I want, when I want and that's how I like it. I want you to do something for me. I want you to give me a list of improvements this new, broken, gutteral homing attack has over the Adventure homing attack and I will counter them the best I can. You don't see the difference? Watch that entire 2D section. Tell me if the level design REMOTELY touches this: soniczone0.com/games/sonic2/downloads/s2-cnz-act1map.png. I can have an ENTIRELY DIFFERENT experience of the level depending on which path I take, which is certainly more than I can say for "Run here for 6 seconds. Now get the fuck back on the main, solitary path. What do you think we are? A game with GOOD Sonic level design?!" A single detour doesn't make good Sonic level design. Good Sonic level design has MANY FULL FEATURED paths that can alter the way you experience a level. Look at the link I sent you. If I stay on the top path, I'm going to have a very different experience than if I fall down to the bottom path. There are opportunities to diverge, but that's up to the player on the bottom route to climb up to the top route or the player on the top route to screw up and fall down to the lower path. It's all up to the player. |
|
|
|
Post by JACK-2 on Jan 11, 2015 20:02:50 GMT -5
Wait. Have I done it? Have I actually convinced you that Sonic Lost Worlds is a bad Sonic game? I'm LOVING everything you said in your first line. The homing attack works pretty much perfectly in the Adventure games. You jump and you manually push the jump button again to boost forward. If there's an enemy nearby, Sonic will go after it. I like being in control, as I've said many times. I attack what I want, when I want and that's how I like it. I want you to do something for me. I want you to give me a list of improvements this new, broken, gutteral homing attack has over the Adventure homing attack and I will counter them the best I can. Compared to the Sonic sections in other games it's the worst, but other games have other characters bogging them down. So, I would rather have a game that has sonic and bad gameplay versus a game that has a good sonic gameplay but other characters tacked on. You're not gonna convince me this game is bad. I'm just looking at the pros and cons of it. Unlike you I don't do the "I'll never say something good about a game I mostly have a negative view thing". That comes off as sophistry. You seem to misunderstand something here. I'm not looking to destroy the game as much as I can while ignoring anything. I list points about the game and decide if they're good or bad. The homing attack like I've explained before can't work like adventure because there are situations where they'll throw in a wild-card enemy while you're in a homing chain in midair and you'll have to use another attack. That doesn't exist in Adventure. Also, the homing attack works the sameway you described, but sonic will go after the enemy it's locked onto the enemy. You don't see the difference? Watch that entire 2D section. Tell me if the level design REMOTELY touches this: soniczone0.com/games/sonic2/downloads/s2-cnz-act1map.png. I can have an ENTIRELY DIFFERENT experience of the level depending on which path I take, which is certainly more than I can say for "Run here for 6 seconds. Now get the fuck back on the main, solitary path. What do you think we are? A game with GOOD Sonic level design?!" A single detour doesn't make good Sonic level design. Good Sonic level design has MANY FULL FEATURED paths that can alter the way you experience a level. Look at the link I sent you. If I stay on the top path, I'm going to have a very different experience than if I fall down to the bottom path. There are opportunities to diverge, but that's up to the player on the bottom route to climb up to the top route or the player on the top route to screw up and fall down to the lower path. It's all up to the player. I commented on the difference multiple times. Like I said, the only difference was that you won't return to the main path until the end when you branch off. You claimed there were no branching paths at all, I said from the beginning that they were watered down. |
|
|
|
Post by gurpwnder on Jan 11, 2015 20:13:41 GMT -5
Wait. Have I done it? Have I actually convinced you that Sonic Lost Worlds is a bad Sonic game? I'm LOVING everything you said in your first line. The homing attack works pretty much perfectly in the Adventure games. You jump and you manually push the jump button again to boost forward. If there's an enemy nearby, Sonic will go after it. I like being in control, as I've said many times. I attack what I want, when I want and that's how I like it. I want you to do something for me. I want you to give me a list of improvements this new, broken, gutteral homing attack has over the Adventure homing attack and I will counter them the best I can. Compared to the Sonic sections in other games it's the worst, but other games have other characters bogging them down. So, I would rather have a game that has sonic and bad gameplay versus a game that has a good sonic gameplay but other characters tacked on. You're not gonna convince me this game is bad. I'm just looking at the pros and cons of it. Unlike you I don't do the "I'll never say something good about a game I mostly have a negative view thing". That comes off as sophistry. You seem to misunderstand something here. I'm not looking to destroy the game as much as I can while ignoring anything. I list points about the game and decide if they're good or bad. The homing attack like I've explained before can't work like adventure because there are situations where they'll throw in a wild-card enemy while you're in a homing chain in midair and you'll have to use another attack. That doesn't exist in Adventure. Also, the homing attack works the sameway you described, but sonic will go after the enemy it's locked onto the enemy. You don't see the difference? Watch that entire 2D section. Tell me if the level design REMOTELY touches this: soniczone0.com/games/sonic2/downloads/s2-cnz-act1map.png. I can have an ENTIRELY DIFFERENT experience of the level depending on which path I take, which is certainly more than I can say for "Run here for 6 seconds. Now get the fuck back on the main, solitary path. What do you think we are? A game with GOOD Sonic level design?!" A single detour doesn't make good Sonic level design. Good Sonic level design has MANY FULL FEATURED paths that can alter the way you experience a level. Look at the link I sent you. If I stay on the top path, I'm going to have a very different experience than if I fall down to the bottom path. There are opportunities to diverge, but that's up to the player on the bottom route to climb up to the top route or the player on the top route to screw up and fall down to the lower path. It's all up to the player. I commented on the difference multiple times. Like I said, the only difference was that you won't return to the main path until the end when you branch off. You claimed there were no branching paths at all, I said from the beginning that they were watered down. Ride to Hell Retribution. Big Rigs Over the Road Racing. Find me good qualities about these games, Mr. Positive. I'll say good things about games when they give me reason to do so. Sonic Lost World disappoints at every turn. This game has Mike Polluck's best performance yet and the game looks pretty nice. That's it. That won't save the game from being one of the most misguided, most disappointing Sonic games I have ever laid eyes on. Do you know WHY I hate this game so much? We came off greatness, and now Sonic's next game has him at his most confused yet. I am harsh on this game because Sonic is capable of more, I know he is. I care about Sonic, and I want him to do better. I don't want to see more games like this, I want good Sonic games, which is why I protest so angrily and vehemently against this piece of shlock. Not to mention many of the 'points' you listed in favour of this game carry many, MANY negatives, which I have gone on about. Again, my initial claim was that there was NOTHING this game does well at all and I stick to it. No. Give me a list of improvements this new homing attack has over the old one. Not examples, points. Stuff like "This homing attack does _______ that the old one does not" or "This homing attack fixes ________", and I will respond appropriately. "watered down" is a VERY VERY casual dismissal of the utter destruction of good Sonic level design. Simple as that. |
|
|
|
Post by JACK-2 on Jan 11, 2015 20:25:22 GMT -5
Ride to Hell Retribution. Big Rigs Over the Road Racing. Find me good qualities about these games, Mr. Positive. 1. I didn't play those games and 2. I don't look for exclusively positives about games or negatives. Once again, I pick pros and cons then give my opinion. You don't, so that's the difference. I'll say good things about games when they give me reason to do so. Sonic Lost World disappoints at every turn. This game has Mike Polluck's best performance yet and the game looks pretty nice. That's it. That won't save the game from being one of the most misguided, most disappointing Sonic games I have ever laid eyes on. Do you know WHY I hate this game so much? We came off greatness, and now Sonic's next game has him at his most confused yet. I am harsh on this game because Sonic is capable of more, I know he is. I care about Sonic, and I want him to do better. I don't want to see more games like this, I want good Sonic games, which is why I protest so angrily and vehemently against this piece of shlock. So, you're harsh because the game strikes an emotional chord with you? Okay, just no that for me it doesn't. Sega makes games to make money, not art. I think they could do better but if they don't then no big deal. I'm not that emotional invested into it [no offense] I just take it as it is. This game is a descent time killer and I like something about it, but it's not a great game. That's all I'm saying. Not to mention many of the 'points' you listed in favour of this game carry many, MANY negatives, which I have gone on about. Again, my initial claim was that there was NOTHING this game does well at all and I stick to it. Nah, you're exaggerating because you dislike the game. It's gone to the point where you're being nitpicky about points just to neg it. No. Give me a list of improvements this new homing attack has over the old one. Not examples, points. Stuff like "This homing attack does _______ that the old one does not" or "This homing attack fixes ________", and I will respond appropriately. "watered down" is a VERY VERY casual dismissal of the utter destruction of good Sonic level design. Simple as that. I already did and drew a I diagram. You responded by saying that the old Sonic homing attack would allow you to just wait it out. I responded by asking you how? You can't wait out an electric enemy if you're chaining a homing attack to cross a bottomless pit. You claimed there were no branching paths period, though. I was the one that said they were watered down, you're exaggerating. |
|
The Big Daddy C-Master
Big Daddy
Living life to the fullest, and it feels great.
I'm still here... for now...
Posts: 26,387
|
Post by The Big Daddy C-Master on Jan 11, 2015 20:26:36 GMT -5
Woah woah woah woah! I have to question one statement.
"I'd rather have a Sonic with bad gameplay than a good Sonic game with extra characters".
I have to ask.. why? You'd rather have a Lost World's style of play than say Sonic 3 and Knuckles? Even if the characters have useful abilities that affect their exploration? Why?
|
|
|
|
Post by JACK-2 on Jan 11, 2015 20:29:31 GMT -5
Woah woah woah woah! I have to question one statement. "I'd rather have a Sonic with bad gameplay than a good Sonic game with extra characters". I have to ask.. why? You'd rather have a Lost World's style of play than say Sonic 3 and Knuckles? Even if the characters have useful abilities that affect their exploration? Why? If it's adventure knuckles and Big and Amy. Then yes, I'd take lost world in a heart beat. Not Sonic 3 knuckles. |
|
|
|
Post by gurpwnder on Jan 11, 2015 21:04:46 GMT -5
Ride to Hell Retribution. Big Rigs Over the Road Racing. Find me good qualities about these games, Mr. Positive. 1. I didn't play those games and 2. I don't look for exclusively positives about games or negatives. Once again, I pick pros and cons then give my opinion. You don't, so that's the difference. I'll say good things about games when they give me reason to do so. Sonic Lost World disappoints at every turn. This game has Mike Polluck's best performance yet and the game looks pretty nice. That's it. That won't save the game from being one of the most misguided, most disappointing Sonic games I have ever laid eyes on. Do you know WHY I hate this game so much? We came off greatness, and now Sonic's next game has him at his most confused yet. I am harsh on this game because Sonic is capable of more, I know he is. I care about Sonic, and I want him to do better. I don't want to see more games like this, I want good Sonic games, which is why I protest so angrily and vehemently against this piece of shlock. So, you're harsh because the game strikes an emotional chord with you? Okay, just no that for me it doesn't. Sega makes games to make money, not art. I think they could do better but if they don't then no big deal. I'm not that emotional invested into it [no offense] I just take it as it is. This game is a descent time killer and I like something about it, but it's not a great game. That's all I'm saying. Not to mention many of the 'points' you listed in favour of this game carry many, MANY negatives, which I have gone on about. Again, my initial claim was that there was NOTHING this game does well at all and I stick to it. Nah, you're exaggerating because you dislike the game. It's gone to the point where you're being nitpicky about points just to neg it. No. Give me a list of improvements this new homing attack has over the old one. Not examples, points. Stuff like "This homing attack does _______ that the old one does not" or "This homing attack fixes ________", and I will respond appropriately. "watered down" is a VERY VERY casual dismissal of the utter destruction of good Sonic level design. Simple as that. I already did and drew a I diagram. You responded by saying that the old Sonic homing attack would allow you to just wait it out. I responded by asking you how? You can't wait out an electric enemy if you're chaining a homing attack to cross a bottomless pit. You claimed there were no branching paths period, though. I was the one that said they were watered down, you're exaggerating. I didn't know that wanting good games meant I was emotionally invested. We currently have on our hands, the furthest thing from a Sonic experience we have ever had. Finally, even you admit it is the worst Sonic game we have ever seen. I am saying "I don't want more of this, I want more of S3+K, Rush and Generations". There is not a single thing this game does we haven't seen done better by other Sonic games. I suggest you take a look at some of your own claims first before claiming that someone else is exaggerating. To compare this shlock to the classics is an insult to those games. You directly compare the methods of gaining speed and the level design, when both of those things could not be further apart. The amount you stretch just to justify this game's wrongs is absolutely appalling. You simply shrug off a mountain of gimmicks as 'baggage', but then say Knuckles and Tails in S3+K are too different from Sonic, despite them being nearly identical and controlling very similarly, with different abilities. You gave me a hypothetical. I want facts. Here, let me give YOU the list and let's see you counter: - The homing reticule in Lost World does not function properly. I have given you 2 examples, one in each of my previous posts regarding the homing attack. This is worse than Adventure, whose homing attack was consistent.
- The homing attack has become automated. Taking out multiple enemies involves the homing reticule popping up on enemies and then pressing 1 button to WATCH as Sonic destroys them, taking out player involvement.
At this point, the player at least has the ability to CHOOSE where they wish to go and there is some actual involvement from their end because the homing attack is MANUAL. - The charged homing attack is another scenario of inconsistency, which I believe you admitted to earlier
- The kick attack. You're making a very simple attack more complicated. What do we GAIN from adding a kick attack? Nothing. We've already seen shielded and electrified enemies in SA2, so I'm going to need you to tell me what the kick attack ADDS
- The homing attack was the same button as the jump button. Very simple, very intuitive. Lost World maps the kick attack to the bounce button. Greaaaaaaaaaat.
Now I want you to tell me what the new homing attack IMPROVES. I can think of NOTHING that it does better than the old one.
And you claimed that this game's 2D levelS resembled Classic Sonic level design. Y'know, the one where we had multi-layered pathways that actually allowed different experiences through the level. You have yet to mention the fact that in the Sonic 2 level I showed you last, you actually can have legitimately different experiences by consistently staying at the top path or at the bottom path. The level will be a completely different experience. That is not something remotely close to what happens in Lost World. Jump to a platform. Revieve red rings / rings. Get off platform and back to the standard, flat, shitty level design. |
|
|
|
Post by JACK-2 on Jan 11, 2015 21:27:29 GMT -5
I didn't know that wanting good games meant I was emotionally invested. We currently have on our hands, the furthest thing from a Sonic experience we have ever had. Finally, even you admit it is the worst Sonic game we have ever seen. I am saying "I don't want more of this, I want more of S3+K, Rush and Generations". There is not a single thing this game does we haven't seen done better by other Sonic games. This is what I'm talking about. I don't care that you want good games, but the way you're acting about is a bit silly. Having a grudge against a game just because it didn't live up is something I can't understand and Where did I say it's the worst Sonic game? I said the gameplay for Sonics individual gameplay is the worst here. That's not the samething at all. Furthermore, I went to the trouble of reaching this aforementioned point when you refused to compare other sonic games in beginning. I suggest you take a look at some of your own claims first before claiming that someone else is exaggerating. To compare this shlock to the classics is an insult to those games. You directly compare the methods of gaining speed and the level design, when both of those things could not be further apart. The amount you stretch just to justify this game's wrongs is absolutely appalling. You simply shrug off a mountain of gimmicks as 'baggage', but then say Knuckles and Tails in S3+K are too different from Sonic, despite them being nearly identical and controlling very similarly, with different abilities. An analysis is insulting? First off, none of the modern sonic games even allow you to gain momentum like Classic Sonic. Not even boost and yet, you said boost is good because it's exhilarating. I said this is the closest and it is. You're getting awfully emotionally about this. You gave me a hypothetical. I want facts. Here, let me give YOU the list and let's see you counter: That was a fact, the game puts scenarios like this for you in the homing attack. You can't do this in Adventure because the timing is too strict and it's made with the projectile in mind. The homing reticule in Lost World does not function properly. I have given you 2 examples, one in each of my previous posts regarding the homing attack. This is worse than Adventure, whose homing attack was consistent. [/li][li]The homing attack has become automated. Taking out multiple enemies involves the homing reticule popping up on enemies and then pressing 1 button to WATCH as Sonic destroys them, taking out player involvement. The homing attack destroys based on how many things the reticle is targeting at once. However, the aerial enemies that you chain together aren't factored because it doesn't target them as such. You can still do controlled chained homing attacks on aerial enemies. It depends on how close the enemies are together. The game mixes it when they want you to multi-target or not. At this point, the player at least has the ability to CHOOSE where they wish to go and there is some actual involvement from their end because the homing attack is MANUAL.The charged homing attack is another scenario of inconsistency, which I believe you admitted to earlier [/li][li]The kick attack. You're making a very simple attack more complicated. What do we GAIN from adding a kick attack? Nothing. We've already seen shielded and electrified enemies in SA2, so I'm going to need you to tell me what the kick attack ADDS[/quote] Once again, it's not the same as Adventure. You don't have electric enemies in mid air chains while clearing a pit. I've said this 5 times already and posted 2 videos above. In the 3DS version he has a projectile that stuns the enemies which destroys their shield. It mixes it up. Some enemies can't even be destroyed with the homing attack unless you use the projectile first. The homing attack was the same button as the jump button. Very simple, very intuitive. Lost World maps the kick attack to the bounce button. Greaaaaaaaaaat. Now I want you to tell me what the new homing attack IMPROVES. I can think of NOTHING that it does better than the old one. Makes it more streamlined and the game knows when to put enemies that need to be destroyed one at a time versus when you just need to target 3 enemies and destroy them. And you claimed that this game's 2D level S resembled Classic Sonic level design. Y'know, the one where we had multi-layered pathways that actually allowed different experiences through the level. You have yet to mention the fact that in the Sonic 2 level I showed you last, you actually can have legitimately different experiences by consistently staying at the top path or at the bottom path. The level will be a completely different experience. That is not something remotely close to what happens in Lost World. Jump to a platform. Revieve red rings / rings. Get off platform and back to the standard, flat, shitty level design. You claimed there were no varying paths at all. I said from the get go that there are but they are watered down. When I showed the video you claimed it was detours, but your initial argument was there were none not me. Also, there's a branching path in Windy Hill zone 3. So, 2 examples. They branch off during the loopty loop: Vs |
|
