Sonic the Hedgehog Discussion and Comparisons

[JACK-2]

Jan 19, 2015 14:51:43 GMT -5 The Big Daddy C-Master said:

Yea. Even weirder it was like I was punished for timing stuff properly; random hits and other nonsense. Asylum just felt right to me.

They also dumbed down the weapon enemies. It used to be that you needed a special take down to take them out or just cape-stun. Now? Just counter with your super counter.

[The Big Daddy C-Master]

Jan 19, 2015 15:31:17 GMT -5 JACK-2 said:

Jan 19, 2015 14:50:49 GMT -5 The Big Daddy C-Master said:

It seems like they mish mashed 3s and sf2 with dumbed down stuff to me. The people who were bashing 3s probably never played it. To be fair many of the "fans" of 3s never played it either and pretend to do so only to fit in.

Didn't you say SF4 was originally supposed to be an early build of 3S sequel? That explains the gameplay elements from 3s, they even have EX moves [you light up the sameway too]. There's no super jumping in SF4 though like in 3S.

In SRK bashing 3S even though most never played it is typical 09er style. So, glad I left that dung hole.

Well if I'm not mistaken Ex came from Darkstalkers. They got a lot of elements from that (which they themselves made).

SRK is full of pseudo intellectual elitists. Garbage.

[The Big Daddy C-Master]

Jan 19, 2015 15:32:50 GMT -5 JACK-2 said:

Jan 19, 2015 14:51:43 GMT -5 The Big Daddy C-Master said:

Yea. Even weirder it was like I was punished for timing stuff properly; random hits and other nonsense. Asylum just felt right to me.

They also dumbed down the weapon enemies. It used to be that you needed a special take down to take them out or just cape-stun. Now? Just counter with your super counter.

It's funny that the older fighters had fewer "moves" and buttons and were deeper and more challenging. You see how they are defending this stuff?

[JACK-2]

Jan 19, 2015 15:34:30 GMT -5 The Big Daddy C-Master said:

Well if I'm not mistaken Ex came from Darkstalkers. They got a lot of elements from that (which they themselves made).

SRK is full of pseudo intellectual elitists. Garbage.

There from Darkstalkers, but this type of EX right down to the inputs is 3S. What do you think about Eventhubs?

[The Big Daddy C-Master]

Jan 19, 2015 15:37:22 GMT -5 JACK-2 said:

Jan 19, 2015 15:34:30 GMT -5 The Big Daddy C-Master said:

Well if I'm not mistaken Ex came from Darkstalkers. They got a lot of elements from that (which they themselves made).

SRK is full of pseudo intellectual elitists. Garbage.

There from Darkstalkers, but this type of EX right down to the inputs is 3S. What do you think about Eventhubs?

I don't think the inputs are as big of a deal though. Many games now have the Ex move system so it's something that just worked and was codified later.

The problem with the moves in SF4 is how so many things bypass zoning. They just weaken the neutral game by making pokes and zoning do so little with weak hitboxes. It's like every character has an anti-fireball move.

Eventhubs is good for news, you just have to ignore the comments, heh.

[JACK-2]

Jan 19, 2015 15:35:48 GMT -5 The Big Daddy C-Master said:

It's funny that the older fighters had fewer "moves" and buttons and were deeper and more challenging. You see how they are defending this stuff?

I didn't read the comments, but I'll check it out.

[JACK-2]

Jan 19, 2015 15:39:41 GMT -5 The Big Daddy C-Master said:

I don't think the inputs are as big of a deal though. Many games now have the Ex move system so it's something that just worked and was codified later.

The problem with the moves in SF4 is how so many things bypass zoning. They just weaken the neutral game by making pokes and zoning do so little with weak hitboxes. It's like every character has an anti-fireball move.

Eventhubs is good for news, you just have to ignore the comments, heh.

I don't mind it, but you have fanboys who bash the game that their game uses as a template. It's dumb.

They claim parrying waters down control space with projectiles but claim SF4 has good zoning.

[The Big Daddy C-Master]

Jan 19, 2015 15:42:36 GMT -5 JACK-2 said:

Jan 19, 2015 15:39:41 GMT -5 The Big Daddy C-Master said:

I don't think the inputs are as big of a deal though. Many games now have the Ex move system so it's something that just worked and was codified later.

The problem with the moves in SF4 is how so many things bypass zoning. They just weaken the neutral game by making pokes and zoning do so little with weak hitboxes. It's like every character has an anti-fireball move.

Eventhubs is good for news, you just have to ignore the comments, heh.

I don't mind it, but you have fanboys who bash the game that their game uses as a template. It's dumb.

They claim parrying waters down control space with projectiles but claim SF4 has good zoning.

Fireballs in SF3 were weaker because of not just parrying. They did low damage, built meter for the opponent, and had low frame advantage. Parrying had good and bad things about it, if they were to implement it again it would need some tweaks to adjust the risk/reward of it.

SF4's zoning isn't great, but I'd say it's inbetween 2 and 3 with 2 being the strongest by a large margin. 3s is definitely less scrubby than 4 though.

[The Big Daddy C-Master]

Jan 19, 2015 15:39:45 GMT -5 JACK-2 said:

Jan 19, 2015 15:35:48 GMT -5 The Big Daddy C-Master said:

It's funny that the older fighters had fewer "moves" and buttons and were deeper and more challenging. You see how they are defending this stuff?

I didn't read the comments, but I'll check it out.

They'll say he's exaggerating and trolling. Some people don't like the truth.

[JACK-2]

Jan 19, 2015 15:54:10 GMT -5 The Big Daddy C-Master said:

Fireballs in SF3 were weaker because of not just parrying. They did low damage, built meter for the opponent, and had low frame advantage. Parrying had good and bad things about it, if they were to implement it again it would need some tweaks to adjust the risk/reward of it.

SF4's zoning isn't great, but I'd say it's inbetween 2 and 3 with 2 being the strongest by a large margin. 3s is definitely less scrubby than 4 though.

They also didn't stun either like they did in SF2. So, yeah. They were watered down but I honestly don't see the projectiles in SF4 being comparable. But, if you listen to these guys they would have you think this game is SF2 reborn when it's not lol.

[The Big Daddy C-Master]

Jan 19, 2015 16:00:07 GMT -5 JACK-2 said:

Jan 19, 2015 15:54:10 GMT -5 The Big Daddy C-Master said:

Fireballs in SF3 were weaker because of not just parrying. They did low damage, built meter for the opponent, and had low frame advantage. Parrying had good and bad things about it, if they were to implement it again it would need some tweaks to adjust the risk/reward of it.

SF4's zoning isn't great, but I'd say it's inbetween 2 and 3 with 2 being the strongest by a large margin. 3s is definitely less scrubby than 4 though.

They also didn't stun either like they did in SF2. So, yeah. They were watered down but I honestly don't see the projectiles in SF4 being comparable. But, if you listen to these guys they would have you think this game is SF2 reborn when it's not lol.

I don't care for a game forcing me to play a certain way and I prefer a balanced game in terms of mechanics: zoning, rushdown, defense, etc would be rewarded equally.

I think they were just going a different direction in SF3 with zoning, but SF4 and many modern games weaken zoning so that bad players won't whine about "spam". People don't realize that projectiles are just long range pokes and they play a big part in the neutral game. Many games weaken pokes and projectiles which then allows jumping and mashing.

[The Big Daddy C-Master]

Ok in terms of boosting vs spin dashing.

There's no question that boosts allows far more benefits and drastically changes the momentum based platforming in Sonic games.

The Spin Dash was good in classic Sonic games, but you had to give up your momentum to do it and you eventually lost your speed so you had to have an understanding of the layout and how to use it with the terrain.

Boost goes through everything, gives you rings, can be used really at anytime (yes you need meter but aside from that...) and you just go super speed. It got rid of much of the feeling of going top speed because you were good and keeping your momentum. You just boost through things, so the feel is much different.

My guess for this was to cater to casuals who want to play the game and don't want the hassle of learning how to keep momentum and deal with the exploration aspects and simply want to go fast. Not my preference as I hate when things are dumbed down but I guess they want to get more players.

[gurpwnder]

Feb 3, 2015 11:05:12 GMT -5 The Big Daddy C-Master said:

Ok in terms of boosting vs spin dashing.

There's no question that boosts allows far more benefits and drastically changes the momentum based platforming in Sonic games.

The Spin Dash was good in classic Sonic games, but you had to give up your momentum to do it and you eventually lost your speed so you had to have an understanding of the layout and how to use it with the terrain.

Boost goes through everything, gives you rings, can be used really at anytime (yes you need meter but aside from that...) and you just go super speed. It got rid of much of the feeling of going top speed because you were good and keeping your momentum. You just boost through things, so the feel is much different.

My guess for this was to cater to casuals who want to play the game and don't want the hassle of learning how to keep momentum and deal with the exploration aspects and simply want to go fast. Not my preference as I hate when things are dumbed down but I guess they want to get more players.

Boost goes through everything? You're completely halted by physical walls, tripping hazards and spikes. Those things were fixed in position, so a good player could boost around 'em and get great times.

Likewise, Spindash killed a very healthy chunk of enemies, and you could jump over those that you couldn't. What was supposed to be a mechanic that allowed players to traverse inclines turned instead sent you from a stand still to a speed well beyond your top running speed while simultaneously allowing you to combat enemies. Sounds awfully similar to boosting. In Generations, you had a meter to limit your boost (though the abundance of rings made this a non-issue unless you were on a shitty path). In Sonic 2, 3+K and CD, you just had to spin dash, use that initial acceleration to jump and rocket forward, then as you landed you held backwards and rinsed and repeated, limited by nothing.

Why is everything about 'dumbing down'? It's a change in focus. The exploration in Generations exists to find faster routes and give players the fastest time. It's clear from the addition of a comparison to your best run to the checkpoint system that Generations is a game that encourages multiple playthroughs in a 'time trial' like fashion. You could just hold X to boost for a healthy chunk of the level, but keeping your eyes peeled and finding that ramp / grind rail / secret platform that allows you to get to a route that shaves 5 seconds off your time.

With Sonic 3+K, you were rewarded for exploration with secret rings for chaos / super emeralds. With Generations, you are rewarded for exploration with a faster time.
Due to the change in focus, I believe that the boost mechanic is a good fit for that type of playstyle. You're encouraged to grab rings for the sake of maintaining your boost meter and to explore to find the most optimal routes, both of which result in the best time.

[The Big Daddy C-Master]

Feb 3, 2015 23:11:19 GMT -5 gurpwnder said:

Feb 3, 2015 11:05:12 GMT -5 The Big Daddy C-Master said:

Ok in terms of boosting vs spin dashing.

There's no question that boosts allows far more benefits and drastically changes the momentum based platforming in Sonic games.

The Spin Dash was good in classic Sonic games, but you had to give up your momentum to do it and you eventually lost your speed so you had to have an understanding of the layout and how to use it with the terrain.

Boost goes through everything, gives you rings, can be used really at anytime (yes you need meter but aside from that...) and you just go super speed. It got rid of much of the feeling of going top speed because you were good and keeping your momentum. You just boost through things, so the feel is much different.

My guess for this was to cater to casuals who want to play the game and don't want the hassle of learning how to keep momentum and deal with the exploration aspects and simply want to go fast. Not my preference as I hate when things are dumbed down but I guess they want to get more players.

Boost goes through everything? You're completely halted by physical walls, tripping hazards and spikes. Those things were fixed in position, so a good player could boost around 'em and get great times.

Likewise, Spindash killed a very healthy chunk of enemies, and you could jump over those that you couldn't. What was supposed to be a mechanic that allowed players to traverse inclines turned instead sent you from a stand still to a speed well beyond your top running speed while simultaneously allowing you to combat enemies. Sounds awfully similar to boosting. In Generations, you had a meter to limit your boost (though the abundance of rings made this a non-issue unless you were on a shitty path). In Sonic 2, 3+K and CD, you just had to spin dash, use that initial acceleration to jump and rocket forward, then as you landed you held backwards and rinsed and repeated, limited by nothing.

Why is everything about 'dumbing down'? It's a change in focus. The exploration in Generations exists to find faster routes and give players the fastest time. It's clear from the addition of a comparison to your best run to the checkpoint system that Generations is a game that encourages multiple playthroughs in a 'time trial' like fashion. You could just hold X to boost for a healthy chunk of the level, but keeping your eyes peeled and finding that ramp / grind rail / secret platform that allows you to get to a route that shaves 5 seconds off your time.

With Sonic 3+K, you were rewarded for exploration with secret rings for chaos / super emeralds. With Generations, you are rewarded for exploration with a faster time.
Due to the change in focus, I believe that the boost mechanic is a good fit for that type of playstyle. You're encouraged to grab rings for the sake of maintaining your boost meter and to explore to find the most optimal routes, both of which result in the best time.

Yes, obviously you can't clip through walls, that would be completely stupid. That goes without saying. You have to be way less aware of momentum when you use the boost than the Spindash.

Similar to spin dash in some ways, yes. The same as it, no. The spin dash killed many enemies easily earlier in the game, many later stage enemies attacked through the front via lasers or even had spikes. You also have to know the enemies positioning to just jump right over them, otherwise you could do into something else. You have to be more aware of where you're going while doing it. Boost did not have this limitation and enemies are simply no problem wile using it. Spin dash has different physics than boosting. You have to lose your momentum to use it and you also are affected by the level layout. Sonic 3&K also had a lot more vertical platforming. There were many areas where you went up and not across. Reckless spindashing had more consequences and limitations. Spin Dash had a much stronger focus on momentum and physics. Boosting has no real such thing. Also it didn't take you past your top speed unless you were running uphill or on a constant straightaway. There were many loops, springs, and other things that made you run really fast, much faster than just a normal spin dash. This is sonic after all.

Now it sounds like you're making excuses for it. You complain about things being dumbed down all of the time on the forum. I don't really mind that the focus is different, but it's clear that boosting is a much easier mechanic that is far more powerful than spin dash without the focus on momentum the other games have. You basically turn into a super sonic for a limited amount of time. This allows players to go "fast" without having to have the understanding of the physics/environment you had in the other games. So yes it is dumbed down somewhat. I also suspect that it's much easier to use in 3d than Spin Dashing which also had something to do with it. Like all things, boosting is liked more by newer players because they feel it would make the game harder to have to use spin dash when boosting is there. Just like people defend Capcom's mechanics.


Generations was more linear and the game felt different. Running felt different and jumping felt different, but they also strengthened the spin dash. Exploration in Sonic 3 & K wouldn't be done well if you just spin dashed through everything. You had a more open approach to playing.

I'm not bashing the mechanic, but it is clearly more powerful and easier to use. I'm not sure why you're denying it. Spin Dash had a necessary use in the past games and paved way for better level design, it is strong, but not as instant gratification as boosting is.

[gurpwnder]

Feb 4, 2015 1:46:03 GMT -5 The Big Daddy C-Master said:

Feb 3, 2015 23:11:19 GMT -5 gurpwnder said:

Boost goes through everything? You're completely halted by physical walls, tripping hazards and spikes. Those things were fixed in position, so a good player could boost around 'em and get great times.

Likewise, Spindash killed a very healthy chunk of enemies, and you could jump over those that you couldn't. What was supposed to be a mechanic that allowed players to traverse inclines turned instead sent you from a stand still to a speed well beyond your top running speed while simultaneously allowing you to combat enemies. Sounds awfully similar to boosting. In Generations, you had a meter to limit your boost (though the abundance of rings made this a non-issue unless you were on a shitty path). In Sonic 2, 3+K and CD, you just had to spin dash, use that initial acceleration to jump and rocket forward, then as you landed you held backwards and rinsed and repeated, limited by nothing.

Why is everything about 'dumbing down'? It's a change in focus. The exploration in Generations exists to find faster routes and give players the fastest time. It's clear from the addition of a comparison to your best run to the checkpoint system that Generations is a game that encourages multiple playthroughs in a 'time trial' like fashion. You could just hold X to boost for a healthy chunk of the level, but keeping your eyes peeled and finding that ramp / grind rail / secret platform that allows you to get to a route that shaves 5 seconds off your time.

With Sonic 3+K, you were rewarded for exploration with secret rings for chaos / super emeralds. With Generations, you are rewarded for exploration with a faster time.
Due to the change in focus, I believe that the boost mechanic is a good fit for that type of playstyle. You're encouraged to grab rings for the sake of maintaining your boost meter and to explore to find the most optimal routes, both of which result in the best time.

Yes, obviously you can't clip through walls, that would be completely stupid. That goes without saying. You have to be way less aware of momentum when you use the boost than the Spindash.

Similar to spin dash in some ways, yes. The same as it, no. The spin dash killed many enemies easily earlier in the game, many later stage enemies attacked through the front via lasers or even had spikes. You also have to know the enemies positioning to just jump right over them, otherwise you could do into something else. You have to be more aware of where you're going while doing it. Boost did not have this limitation and enemies are simply no problem wile using it. Spin dash has different physics than boosting. You have to lose your momentum to use it and you also are affected by the level layout. Sonic 3&K also had a lot more vertical platforming. There were many areas where you went up and not across. Reckless spindashing had more consequences and limitations. Spin Dash had a much stronger focus on momentum and physics. Boosting has no real such thing. Also it didn't take you past your top speed unless you were running uphill or on a constant straightaway. There were many loops, springs, and other things that made you run really fast, much faster than just a normal spin dash. This is sonic after all.

Now it sounds like you're making excuses for it. You complain about things being dumbed down all of the time on the forum. I don't really mind that the focus is different, but it's clear that boosting is a much easier mechanic that is far more powerful than spin dash without the focus on momentum the other games have. You basically turn into a super sonic for a limited amount of time. This allows players to go "fast" without having to have the understanding of the physics/environment you had in the other games. So yes it is dumbed down somewhat. I also suspect that it's much easier to use in 3d than Spin Dashing which also had something to do with it. Like all things, boosting is liked more by newer players because they feel it would make the game harder to have to use spin dash when boosting is there. Just like people defendCapcom's mechanics.


Generations was more linear and the game felt different. Running felt different and jumping felt different, but they also strengthened the spin dash. Exploration in Sonic 3 & K wouldn't be done well if you just spin dashed through everything. You had a more open approach to playing.

I'm not bashing the mechanic, but it is clearly more powerful and easier to use. I'm not sure why you're denying it. Spin Dash had a necessary use in the past games and paved way for better level design, it is strong, but not as instant gratification as boosting is.

When do I complain about things being dumbed down? My complaints from SF4 stem from the fact that nothing is explained to the player and for a game meant to ease in beginners, it fails by leaving each and every one of its core mechanics unexplained to these potential new players. My complaints about Lost World are numerous, but the gist is that the level design and gameplay don't feel 'Sonic', while tacking on an entire laundry list of gimmicks and devaluing many aspects of Sonic gameplay, while also including tonnes of unneeded retro pandering right after SONIC GENERATIONS (a game that EXISTS to retro pander). I don't think I complained often about 'dumbing down', that's what you and Jack do. I like my games to test me, because that's how I derive enjoyment from the games, absolutely (Super Meat Boy is my favourite platformer of all time for this reason), but I don't think I based any rants around 'dumbing down' (except the one about modern games, where it was a small point).

We're assuming knowledge of the level maps, which is how you'd be able to constantly boost through Generations and get great times. The vertical platforming of the game didn't stop spin dashing from being an absolutely overpowered mechanic either. 


Before you say 'exploration': 


My point is that the spin dash was a broken mechanic. There is almost no reason not to spin dash. In Sonic 1, you truly had to earn and keep your momentum. Rolling down a steep incline was the only way you could experience some truly thrilling speed. Why bother with that when you can just spin dash everywhere and get beyond max speed instantly for no effort? The fact that you were accelerated beyond top running speed just pushes it waaay too far IMO. Had it propelled you to a speed close to (but still below) your maximum running speed, I think that would have been okay. Even then, they could just toss some horizontal springs or speed boosters (introduced in Sonic 2) if they wanted you to climb a 90 degree wall or propel you to those kinds of speed levels.

[The Big Daddy C-Master]

Feb 4, 2015 3:05:47 GMT -5 gurpwnder said:

Feb 4, 2015 1:46:03 GMT -5 The Big Daddy C-Master said:

Yes, obviously you can't clip through walls, that would be completely stupid. That goes without saying. You have to be way less aware of momentum when you use the boost than the Spindash.

Similar to spin dash in some ways, yes. The same as it, no. The spin dash killed many enemies easily earlier in the game, many later stage enemies attacked through the front via lasers or even had spikes. You also have to know the enemies positioning to just jump right over them, otherwise you could do into something else. You have to be more aware of where you're going while doing it. Boost did not have this limitation and enemies are simply no problem wile using it. Spin dash has different physics than boosting. You have to lose your momentum to use it and you also are affected by the level layout. Sonic 3&K also had a lot more vertical platforming. There were many areas where you went up and not across. Reckless spindashing had more consequences and limitations. Spin Dash had a much stronger focus on momentum and physics. Boosting has no real such thing. Also it didn't take you past your top speed unless you were running uphill or on a constant straightaway. There were many loops, springs, and other things that made you run really fast, much faster than just a normal spin dash. This is sonic after all.

Now it sounds like you're making excuses for it. You complain about things being dumbed down all of the time on the forum. I don't really mind that the focus is different, but it's clear that boosting is a much easier mechanic that is far more powerful than spin dash without the focus on momentum the other games have. You basically turn into a super sonic for a limited amount of time. This allows players to go "fast" without having to have the understanding of the physics/environment you had in the other games. So yes it is dumbed down somewhat. I also suspect that it's much easier to use in 3d than Spin Dashing which also had something to do with it. Like all things, boosting is liked more by newer players because they feel it would make the game harder to have to use spin dash when boosting is there. Just like people defendCapcom's mechanics.


Generations was more linear and the game felt different. Running felt different and jumping felt different, but they also strengthened the spin dash. Exploration in Sonic 3 & K wouldn't be done well if you just spin dashed through everything. You had a more open approach to playing.

I'm not bashing the mechanic, but it is clearly more powerful and easier to use. I'm not sure why you're denying it. Spin Dash had a necessary use in the past games and paved way for better level design, it is strong, but not as instant gratification as boosting is.

When do I complain about things being dumbed down? My complaints from SF4 stem from the fact that nothing is explained to the player and for a game meant to ease in beginners, it fails by leaving each and every one of its core mechanics unexplained to these potential new players. My complaints about Lost World are numerous, but the gist is that the level design and gameplay don't feel 'Sonic', while tacking on an entire laundry list of gimmicks and devaluing many aspects of Sonic gameplay, while also including tonnes of unneeded retro pandering right after SONIC GENERATIONS (a game that EXISTS to retro pander). I don't think I complained often about 'dumbing down', that's what you and Jack do. I like my games to test me, because that's how I derive enjoyment from the games, absolutely (Super Meat Boy is my favourite platformer of all time for this reason), but I don't think I based any rants around 'dumbing down' (except the one about modern games, where it was a small point).

We're assuming knowledge of the level maps, which is how you'd be able to constantly boost through Generations and get great times. The vertical platforming of the game didn't stop spin dashing from being an absolutely overpowered mechanic either. 


Before you say 'exploration': 


My point is that the spin dash was a broken mechanic. There is almost no reason not to spin dash. In Sonic 1, you truly had to earn and keep your momentum. Rolling down a steep incline was the only way you could experience some truly thrilling speed. Why bother with that when you can just spin dash everywhere and get beyond max speed instantly for no effort? The fact that you were accelerated beyond top running speed just pushes it waaay too far IMO. Had it propelled you to a speed close to (but still below) your maximum running speed, I think that would have been okay. Even then, they could just toss some horizontal springs or speed boosters (introduced in Sonic 2) if they wanted you to climb a 90 degree wall or propel you to those kinds of speed levels.

You're using a Tool Assisted speedrun and things of the sort to emphasize how they are used in general gameplay? That's deceitful or faulty logic. Tool Assisted speedruns use tricks to speed up and slow down the gameplay and also have save and load states.

If you're going to argue spindash being broken, then argue that boost is even more broken. You can use it while jumping, running, falling, and you just need to get rings to keep it going, which you should be doing anyways. It's far more stronger, autopilot, and doesn't require you to understand the momentum the way you had to in the older games. I'm playing Sonic Generations right now and there isn't even a comparison.

Spin Dashing was in fact needed in the second and third game due to the design being different, hills, slopes, etc. Posting some "OMG speedrun" ignores the fact that a person would have had to play those levels a lot to know the positioning and the best spots to speed dash in while getting full advantage of the momentum. I don't really see why you're denying this. Also your argument is not true; there were reasons to not spindash. You could glide, fly, and climb in those games. You had more areas to explore. In the 3d sonic stages, you're just trying to get from point a to point b as soon as possible so you were constantly boosting as much as possible.

And again, you could not spin dash past your top running speed instantly unless you were on an incline or flat ground, going down hill or through loops or springs you would run much faster. Sonic 1 had the most linear design because you didn't have a good way to get up inclines without springs. Sonic 2 was less linear and Sonic 3 and Knuckles was the least linear. It's also the best one of the three and the most fun to play although the others are still good.

You have complained about games being made worse and making mechanics watered down in the past.



You don't even have to aim at the rings you need to boost, it just absorbs them lol. Boosting turns you into a super sonic with a ring meter, which is what super sonic was anyways since the timer went down and you had to collect rings. I understand it was meant to be less cumbersome with the 3d platforming element but come on.

Boosting=super sonic but better since you can boost while jumping too, so it's more like hyper sonic.

[gurpwnder]

Feb 4, 2015 3:19:08 GMT -5 The Big Daddy C-Master said:

Feb 4, 2015 3:05:47 GMT -5 gurpwnder said:

You're using a Tool Assisted speedrun and things of the sort to emphasize how they are used in general gameplay? That's deceitful or faulty logic. Tool Assisted speedruns use tricks to speed up and slow down the gameplay and also have save and load states.

If you're going to argue spindash being broken, then argue that boost is even more broken. You can use it while jumping, running, falling, and you just need to get rings to keep it going, which you should be doing anyways. It's far more stronger, autopilot, and doesn't require you to understand the momentum the way you had to in the older games. I'm playing Sonic Generations right now and there isn't even a comparison.

Spin Dashing was in fact needed in the second and third game due to the design being different, hills, slopes, etc. Posting some "OMG speedrun" ignores the fact that a person would have had to play those levels a lot to know the positioning and the best spots to speed dash in while getting full advantage of the momentum. I don't really see why you're denying this.

You have complained about games being made worse and making mechanics watered down in the past.



You don't even have to aim at the rings you need to boost, it just absorbs them lol. Boosting turns you into a super sonic with a ring meter, which is what super sonic was anyways since the timer went down and you had to collect rings. I understand it was meant to be less cumbersome with the 3d platforming element but come on.

Boosting=super sonic but better since you can boost while jumping too, so it's more like hyper sonic.

Well, these TAS videos are the only videos I could find of speedruns without the use of glitches, unfortunately. The other manual videos are very nice, but actually use a lot of wall clipping (some of them actually performing pixel perfect requirements quite consistently) in every stage, so it doesn't help (though there is a lot of spin dashing regardless).

The only reason I'm complaining about Spin Dash is because of the constant 'boost to win' I hear from others. How people can complain about boosting in Colours / Generations (Unleashed was pretty bad with it, since the levels didn't require nearly as much input from the players) is beyond me. Spin dash is not as nuts as the boost, but it's not like the classic games that are so near and dear to others' hearts function absolutely perfectly either. Again, if the spin dash had just propelled to Sonic to a speed which was still somewhat BELOW his maximum running speed, he would still be able to traverse most inclines that weren't 90 degree walls. In the same game that brought us the spin dash, we also got speed boosters, which can bring Sonic up to speed for 90 degree walls anyways.

I didn't really mind spin dash myself, but to hear people slam the boost while giving S2 and 3+K free passes is beyond me. I'm still very well aware that S3+K is the best Sonic game by far and away, I just think that if we're going to scrutinize the boost, I think the spin dash can be drawn as a fairly close equivalent (Yes, boost is more nuts than spin dash, but to call spin dash perfectly balanced is just wrong IMO).

I don't think that boosting breaks Generations. I think that the levels being very easy gives that illusion. It's not difficult at all to complete any stage, and there are so many aids for players who miss a jump or a path, that even novice players can get away with boosting through a healthy chunk of levels.

Do share the 'many times' I have complained about dumbing down. Most of my complaints about games stem from them being non-functional or not making sense to me. Surely you have a couple of instances at least, eh?

[The Big Daddy C-Master]

Feb 4, 2015 4:13:29 GMT -5 gurpwnder said:

Feb 4, 2015 3:19:08 GMT -5 The Big Daddy C-Master said:

You're using a Tool Assisted speedrun and things of the sort to emphasize how they are used in general gameplay? That's deceitful or faulty logic. Tool Assisted speedruns use tricks to speed up and slow down the gameplay and also have save and load states.

If you're going to argue spindash being broken, then argue that boost is even more broken. You can use it while jumping, running, falling, and you just need to get rings to keep it going, which you should be doing anyways. It's far more stronger, autopilot, and doesn't require you to understand the momentum the way you had to in the older games. I'm playing Sonic Generations right now and there isn't even a comparison.

Spin Dashing was in fact needed in the second and third game due to the design being different, hills, slopes, etc. Posting some "OMG speedrun" ignores the fact that a person would have had to play those levels a lot to know the positioning and the best spots to speed dash in while getting full advantage of the momentum. I don't really see why you're denying this.

You have complained about games being made worse and making mechanics watered down in the past.



You don't even have to aim at the rings you need to boost, it just absorbs them lol. Boosting turns you into a super sonic with a ring meter, which is what super sonic was anyways since the timer went down and you had to collect rings. I understand it was meant to be less cumbersome with the 3d platforming element but come on.

Boosting=super sonic but better since you can boost while jumping too, so it's more like hyper sonic.

Well, these TAS videos are the only videos I could find of speedruns without the use of glitches, unfortunately. The other manual videos are very nice, but actually use a lot of wall clipping (some of them actually performing pixel perfect requirements quite consistently) in every stage, so it doesn't help (though there is a lot of spin dashing regardless).

The only reason I'm complaining about Spin Dash is because of the constant 'boost to win' I hear from others. How people can complain about boosting in Colours / Generations (Unleashed was pretty bad with it, since the levels didn't require nearly as much input from the players) is beyond me. Spin dash is not as nuts as the boost, but it's not like the classic games that are so near and dear to others' hearts function absolutely perfectly either. Again, if the spin dash had just propelled to Sonic to a speed which was still somewhat BELOW his maximum running speed, he would still be able to traverse most inclines that weren't 90 degree walls. In the same game that brought us the spin dash, we also got speed boosters, which can bring Sonic up to speed for 90 degree walls anyways.

I didn't really mind spin dash myself, but to hear people slam the boost while giving S2 and 3+K free passes is beyond me. I'm still very well aware that S3+K is the best Sonic game by far and away, I just think that if we're going to scrutinize the boost, I think the spin dash can be drawn as a fairly close equivalent (Yes, boost is more nuts than spin dash, but to call spin dash perfectly balanced is just wrong IMO).

I don't think that boosting breaks Generations. I think that the levels being very easy gives that illusion. It's not difficult at all to complete any stage, and there are so many aids for players who miss a jump or a path, that even novice players can get away with boosting through a healthy chunk of levels.

Do share the 'many times' I have complained about dumbing down. Most of my complaints about games stem from them being non-functional or not making sense to me. Surely you have a couple of instances at least, eh?

Well I guess you and I are in a similar boat there. I mean I don't really care and I'll play both.

Sonic has always had a broken base. The difference is spin dash was needed in those games and you didn't actually go faster than your top running speed period. On flat surfaces you did very temporarily sure, but Sonic has loops, springs, etc which make you go faster, the difference is you have a chance of being hit more running than spinning. Boost is like a run and a spin dash put together which you can do in the air.

In terms of you saying something was "dumbed down" I mean you don't use the "scrub" argument but you do argue things being worsened by the mechanics being made more shallow which is just another way of saying "dumbed down". It's all good though, I mean it's a problem with modern games tbh.

[gurpwnder]

Feb 4, 2015 4:52:34 GMT -5 The Big Daddy C-Master said:

Feb 4, 2015 4:13:29 GMT -5 gurpwnder said:

stuff (seriously, how do I get rid of this?)

Well I guess you and I are in a similar boat there. I mean I don't really care and I'll play both.

Sonic has always had a broken base. The difference is spin dash was needed in those games and you didn't actually go faster than your top running speed period. On flat surfaces you did very temporarily sure, but Sonic has loops, springs, etc which make you go faster, the difference is you have a chance of being hit more running than spinning. Boost is like a run and a spin dash put together which you can do in the air.

In terms of you saying something was "dumbed down" I mean you don't use the "scrub" argument but you do argue things being worsened by the mechanics being made more shallow which is just another way of saying "dumbed down". It's all good though, I mean it's a problem with modern games tbh.

I'm gonna disagree with you about running VS spin dashing. I define 'run speed' as the top speed of the character when tilting the analogue stick / Dpad in one direction (in conjunction with a run button if the game has one). If I hold right on the analogue stick / Dpad, I don't think I'm ever going to match the speed of a spin dash unless the game gives me a speed booster or a horizontal spring. Not to mention that the spin dash gives you BEYOND max running speed INSTANTANEOUSLY upon release. Holding right on the d-pad will make Sonic slowly accelerate to a top speed that is far below the sheer boost that a spin dash provides.

Well, even then I'm still going to have to question whether or not I use THAT argument often. The bulk of Sonic Lost World's complaints can be summed up as "Sonic has a SEVERE identity crisis in Lost World". The addition of a run button, the blocky level design, the linear levels aren't things that I'd say are examples of 'dumbing down', as much as I say they are changes that do not sit well with me. (Before you say linear levels, it can be said that linear levels allow for a more 'pure' platforming experience, which is never what Sonic was about). Even in my massive Street Fighter rant, I don't think I made too many complaints about the game being toned down compared to previous Street Fighters. If you can give me examples of when I used the 'dumbing down' / 'shallow mechanics' arguments, let me know. Otherwise, I'm not seeing it.

[The Big Daddy C-Master]

Feb 4, 2015 5:13:38 GMT -5 gurpwnder said:

Feb 4, 2015 4:52:34 GMT -5 The Big Daddy C-Master said:

Well I guess you and I are in a similar boat there. I mean I don't really care and I'll play both.

Sonic has always had a broken base. The difference is spin dash was needed in those games and you didn't actually go faster than your top running speed period. On flat surfaces you did very temporarily sure, but Sonic has loops, springs, etc which make you go faster, the difference is you have a chance of being hit more running than spinning. Boost is like a run and a spin dash put together which you can do in the air.

In terms of you saying something was "dumbed down" I mean you don't use the "scrub" argument but you do argue things being worsened by the mechanics being made more shallow which is just another way of saying "dumbed down". It's all good though, I mean it's a problem with modern games tbh.

I'm gonna disagree with you about running VS spin dashing. I define 'run speed' as the top speed of the character when tilting the analogue stick / Dpad in one direction (in conjunction with a run button if the game has one). If I hold right on the analogue stick, I don't think I'm ever going to match the speed of a spin dash unless the game gives me a speed booster or a horizontal spring. Not to mention that the spin dash gives you BEYOND max running speed INSTANTANEOUSLY upon release. Holding right on the d-pad will make Sonic slowly accelerate to a top speed that is far below the sheer boost that a spin dash provides.

Well, even then I'm still going to have to question whether or not I use THAT argument often. The bulk of Sonic Lost World's complaints can be summed up as "Sonic has a SEVERE identity crisis in Lost World". The addition of a run button, the blocky level design, the linear levels aren't things that I'd say are examples of 'dumbing down', as much as I say they are changes that do not sit well with me. (Before you say linear levels, it can be said that linear levels allow for a more 'pure' platforming experience, which is never what Sonic was about). Even in my massive Street Fighter rant, I don't think I made too many complaints about the game being toned down compared to previous Street Fighters. If you can give me examples of when I used the 'dumbing down' / 'shallow mechanics' arguments, let me know. Otherwise, I'm not seeing it.

I define top running speed as max running speed. You move faster running during loops or springs and you continue to go fast if you keep your momentum, it was a more momentum based game compared to the modern Sonic games. Spin dashing forced you to give up your momentum and then you sped up and lost your momentum at the end. Now if you want to complain about a spin dash, go look at Generations classic. Insanely fast and good because the other stuff was nerfed in comparison. Spin Dash had a much needed function in 2 and 3 but it was really cranked up in generations.

I found that Generations had polarizing level design (not so much in gimmicks) but how you'd go really fast in one part but have some blocky and linear stuff later. It's still much better than lost however.

As for dumbing down:

Aug 5, 2014 19:30:27 GMT -5 gurpwnder said:

What about from a high level perspective?

High level play: Option selects and the like are arguably most prevalent in SF4. Being able to safe jump option select VS backdash or SRK, etc is essentially stripping many mixups away from the game. It's like you're playing rock - paper - scissors and you pick rock and prevent your opponent from picking rock or paper. High level techniques in other games usually involve movement techniques like wavedashing, snakedashing, korean wavedashing, etc.

Down + Back: SF4's defense is pretty one-dimensional in my opinion since an overwhelming majority of offense comes from lows and special mids. Overheads are usually telegraphed with a long startup,  so players can usually feel comfortable holding down + back until they see an overhead. In KOF, both lows and mids are well represented with KOF allowing players to hop and assault with quicker aerials. In Tekken / Soul Calibur, highs are generally safe, but duckable and punishable. Mids are usually very rewarding, but are generally punishable on block and lows are peppered in to make sure your opponent doesn't keep holding back to block, but are launch punishable.

I mean I agree with your overall assessment so it isn't a problem, but you rant about a lot of things lol.

Also when are you going to get into why Melee isn't as good as people make it out to be, I really wanted to hear that.

[gurpwnder]

Feb 4, 2015 5:20:00 GMT -5 The Big Daddy C-Master said:

Feb 4, 2015 5:13:38 GMT -5 gurpwnder said:

stuff (I dunno how to quote or delete quote bubbles, this shit is hard)

I define top running speed as max running speed. You move faster running during loops or springs and you continue to go fast if you keep your momentum, it was a more momentum based game compared to the modern Sonic games. Spin dashing forced you to give up your momentum and then you sped up and lost your momentum at the end. Now if you want to complain about a spin dash, go look at Generations classic. Insanely fast and good because the other stuff was nerfed in comparison. Spin Dash had a much needed function in 2 and 3 but it was really cranked up in generations.

I found that Generations had polarizing level design (not so much in gimmicks) but how you'd go really fast in one part but have some blocky and linear stuff later. It's still much better than lost however.

As for dumbing down:

Aug 5, 2014 19:30:27 GMT -5 gurpwnder said:

Me saying things about SF4's option selects and defense.

I mean I agree with your overall assessment so it isn't a problem, but you rant about a lot of things lol.

Also when are you going to get into why Melee isn't as good as people make it out to be, I really wanted to hear that.

How do you get to your max definition of max running speed? You run down a hill, you get boosted by speed boosters or horizontal springs, or you spin dash. Spin Dash DID have a purpose, but it was WAAAAAAAAAAAAY too good at what it did. The boost of speed Sonic got propelled him FAR faster than any running speed he could possibly achieve otherwise without stage assistance. It got to the point where most players would use it along straight pathways or even downward slopes (so they can jump forward and avoid that section), just because of the sheer amount of speed Sonic got from it.

Not going to deny that Generations Classic Sonic's spin dash was nuts. It was definitely nuts. INSANELY NUTS. However, I'll complain about the classics because people love to use it as a defense mechanism. "Oh, boost is instawin, in the classic games, you had to EARN speed", except you didn't because spindash lol.

The level design is the reason I like Generations so much. There's so much to do in each level, with tonnes and tonnes of alternate, branching pathways. The 3D boost Sonic is especially commendable, since it doesn't do the multilayered branching pathways that 2D Sonic does, yet it still gave us so many ways to experience the levels with hidden shortcuts everywhere. The red rings were an interesting way to incentivise exploration of levels, and the levels were just thrilling to play for me, because I honestly found them to be very well designed (excluding planet Wisp's Wisp sections, though I understand why they're there).

As for my riffing on SF4. Those two arguments are minor compared to the bulk of my arguments, which are about how the game is unintuitive and unfriendly towards the beginners it tries to attract. Even then, down + back has always been the preferred defensive stance in SF's history, SF4 just added a little salt to that wound by giving us crouch techs. 

[The Big Daddy C-Master]

Feb 4, 2015 6:00:10 GMT -5 gurpwnder said:

Feb 4, 2015 5:20:00 GMT -5 The Big Daddy C-Master said:

I define top running speed as max running speed. You move faster running during loops or springs and you continue to go fast if you keep your momentum, it was a more momentum based game compared to the modern Sonic games. Spin dashing forced you to give up your momentum and then you sped up and lost your momentum at the end. Now if you want to complain about a spin dash, go look at Generations classic. Insanely fast and good because the other stuff was nerfed in comparison. Spin Dash had a much needed function in 2 and 3 but it was really cranked up in generations.

I found that Generations had polarizing level design (not so much in gimmicks) but how you'd go really fast in one part but have some blocky and linear stuff later. It's still much better than lost however.

As for dumbing down:
I mean I agree with your overall assessment so it isn't a problem, but you rant about a lot of things lol.

Also when are you going to get into why Melee isn't as good as people make it out to be, I really wanted to hear that.

How do you get to your max definition of max running speed? You run down a hill, you get boosted by speed boosters or horizontal springs, or you spin dash. Spin Dash DID have a purpose, but it was WAAAAAAAAAAAAY too good at what it did. The boost of speed Sonic got propelled him FAR faster than any running speed he could possibly achieve otherwise without stage assistance. It got to the point where most players would use it along straight pathways or even downward slopes (so they can jump forward and avoid that section), just because of the sheer amount of speed Sonic got from it.

Not going to deny that Generations Classic Sonic's spin dash was nuts. It was definitely nuts. INSANELY NUTS. However, I'll complain about the classics because people love to use it as a defense mechanism. "Oh, boost is instawin, in the classic games, you had to EARN speed", except you didn't because spindash lol.

The level design is the reason I like Generations so much. There's so much to do in each level, with tonnes and tonnes of alternate, branching pathways. The 3D boost Sonic is especially commendable, since it doesn't do the multilayered branching pathways that 2D Sonic does, yet it still gave us so many ways to experience the levels with hidden shortcuts everywhere. The red rings were an interesting way to incentivise exploration of levels, and the levels were just thrilling to play for me, because I honestly found them to be very well designed (excluding planet Wisp's Wisp sections, though I understand why they're there).

As for my riffing on SF4. Those two arguments are minor compared to the bulk of my arguments, which are about how the game is unintuitive and unfriendly towards the beginners it tries to attract. Even then, down + back has always been the preferred defensive stance in SF's history, SF4 just added a little salt to that wound by giving us crouch techs. 

Because momentum based platforming is part of how Sonic works and you'll be going down slopes and through loops quite often, it was up to the player to maintain their speed.  I've never seen the need of doing it down a slope.  It did give me a momentum burst from a standstill which was the point of it.  And again you're comparing the mechanics of the classic sonic to the modern. That game had many ways to play and explore it.  It wasn't just "go from point a to b" like you see in the modern games.   Which are not only easier, but have a better spin dash/boost mechanic on top of it.   You also had much more flat parts of the newer Sonic and less platforming that you had in the original which had you ascend vertically.


Again, you did have to earn and keep your momentum to go really fast in the classic sonic,  why would you give it up to spin dash when you were at top speed? If you jumped you slowed down more, the speed and momentum was a lot better along with the platforming.  In the newer sonics you have less of the later and a more powerful speed mechanic which can be used at any time and at any position and even gives you rings.  If anything I'd blame the stage design as much as the mechanics, maybe even more so.

Generations is definitely better amongst the newer Sonic games but the platforming and exploration aspect is far more limited and you had more blocky flat areas than you did in the older games.  It was a mix of old and new but I think the level design in Sonic 3&K much better.

But you complained about things being dumbed down along with it being unfriendly to beginners.  I agree with you in some ways but it's still there.

Aug 5, 2014 19:30:27 GMT -5 gurpwnder said:

Fundamentals: I realize that SF is a prediction heavy game and is very footsie based and I commend that, but the concessions made for new players are crutches that will handicap them in any other fighting game they play. Wakeup SRK will get them nowhere in 3rd strike, where a meaty will hit Ryu out of an HP SRK or can get parried and punished. Input shortcuts that they may rely on in SF4 won't help them should they transition to KOF, which demands cleaner inputs. SF4 lets you mash SRK between blockstrings, meaning that you automatically block without even needing to commit to blocking. In 3rd strike or Tekken, if you let go of back, you no longer guard, so prepare to eat shit.

[gurpwnder]

Feb 4, 2015 6:33:10 GMT -5 The Big Daddy C-Master said:

Feb 4, 2015 6:00:10 GMT -5 gurpwnder said:

stuff

Because momentum based platforming is part of how Sonic works and you'll be going down slopes and through loops quite often, it was up to the player to maintain their speed.  I've never seen the need of doing it down a slope.  It did give me a momentum burst from a standstill which was the point of it.  And again you're comparing the mechanics of the classic sonic to the modern. That game had many ways to play and explore it.  It wasn't just "go from point a to b" like you see in the modern games.   Which are not only easier, but have a better spin dash/boost mechanic on top of it.   You also had much more flat parts of the newer Sonic and less platforming that you had in the original which had you ascend vertically.


Again, you did have to earn and keep your momentum to go really fast in the classic sonic,  why would you give it up to spin dash when you were at top speed? If you jumped you slowed down more, the speed and momentum was a lot better along with the platforming.  In the newer sonics you have less of the later and a more powerful speed mechanic which can be used at any time and at any position and even gives you rings.  If anything I'd blame the stage design as much as the mechanics, maybe even more so.

Generations is definitely better amongst the newer Sonic games but the platforming and exploration aspect is far more limited and you had more blocky flat areas than you did in the older games.  It was a mix of old and new but I think the level design in Sonic 3&K much better.

But you complained about things being dumbed down along with it being unfriendly to beginners.  I agree with you in some ways but it's still there.

Aug 5, 2014 19:30:27 GMT -5 gurpwnder said:

Fundamentals: I realize that SF is a prediction heavy game and is very footsie based and I commend that, but the concessions made for new players are crutches that will handicap them in any other fighting game they play. Wakeup SRK will get them nowhere in 3rd strike, where a meaty will hit Ryu out of an HP SRK or can get parried and punished. Input shortcuts that they may rely on in SF4 won't help them should they transition to KOF, which demands cleaner inputs. SF4 lets you mash SRK between blockstrings, meaning that you automatically block without even needing to commit to blocking. In 3rd strike or Tekken, if you let go of back, you no longer guard, so prepare to eat shit.

As abundant and interesting as the branching pathways were in S1, 2 and 3, there was indeed a "Go from point A to point B" 
soniczone0.com/games/sonic2/downloads/s2-cnz-act2map.png
Sure, there's a HELL of a lot you can do on your way there, but to say that point A and B aren't defined is wrong. You will always start at A and you will always end off at B. There aren't hidden exits or anything like that, so it's always B.

No, you start the level by spin dashing, so you start the very level with top speed. The second you feel that your momentum is starting to peter out, you hold backwards and charge another spin dash. Rinse, lather, repeat whenever and wherever possible. There's never a moment where top speed is out of reach. In Sonic 1, that's a completely different story. THERE, you had to earn your momentum. THERE, you had to keep up your momentum by using the level to your advantage. Ever since Sonic 2, we have speed boosters AND the spin dash to do the work of earning momentum for us.

Modern Sonic 3D stages don't have this sort of level design
soniczone0.com/games/sonic2/downloads/s2-cnz-act2map.png

So of course they'd feel different. Doesn't necessarily mean that the actual exploration is buggered. Almost every part of 3D stages have multiple junctions, whether the reward be big or small. Some places like Modern Chemical Plant zone can let you skip like 10-15 second of the level right at the beginning of the level if you know where to look. In Modern City Escape, you can avoid a good chunk of the downroad streetboarding and instead take it up to the rooftops of the houses on the sides instead, giving you a nice shortcut, etc. 



The gist of that quote I made was that SF4 doesn't prepare the beginners it tries to attract. In Skullgirls, the tutorials show you crossups, tick throws, how to deal with high low mixups and gives players some very useful information that can be applicable to many fighting games, while SF4 tries to help new players via crutches instead of teaching them. It's equivalent to a teacher with a struggling student. Skullgirls gives that student extra examples and walks them through step by step so they can learn the process. SF4 just gives them enough bonus marks so the student can get the hell out of their classroom. It's not the 'dumbing down' I'm upset with, it's the fact that SF4 leaves players clueless on every single aspect of its game.

[The Big Daddy C-Master]

Feb 4, 2015 22:10:22 GMT -5 gurpwnder said:

Feb 4, 2015 6:33:10 GMT -5 The Big Daddy C-Master said:

Because momentum based platforming is part of how Sonic works and you'll be going down slopes and through loops quite often, it was up to the player to maintain their speed.  I've never seen the need of doing it down a slope.  It did give me a momentum burst from a standstill which was the point of it.  And again you're comparing the mechanics of the classic sonic to the modern. That game had many ways to play and explore it.  It wasn't just "go from point a to b" like you see in the modern games.   Which are not only easier, but have a better spin dash/boost mechanic on top of it.   You also had much more flat parts of the newer Sonic and less platforming that you had in the original which had you ascend vertically.


Again, you did have to earn and keep your momentum to go really fast in the classic sonic,  why would you give it up to spin dash when you were at top speed? If you jumped you slowed down more, the speed and momentum was a lot better along with the platforming.  In the newer sonics you have less of the later and a more powerful speed mechanic which can be used at any time and at any position and even gives you rings.  If anything I'd blame the stage design as much as the mechanics, maybe even more so.

Generations is definitely better amongst the newer Sonic games but the platforming and exploration aspect is far more limited and you had more blocky flat areas than you did in the older games.  It was a mix of old and new but I think the level design in Sonic 3&K much better.

But you complained about things being dumbed down along with it being unfriendly to beginners.  I agree with you in some ways but it's still there.

As abundant and interesting as the branching pathways were in S1, 2 and 3, there was indeed a "Go from point A to point B" 
soniczone0.com/games/sonic2/downloads/s2-cnz-act2map.png
Sure, there's a HELL of a lot you can do on your way there, but to say that point A and B aren't defined is wrong. You will always start at A and you will always end off at B. There aren't hidden exits or anything like that, so it's always B.

No, you start the level by spin dashing, so you start the very level with top speed. The second you feel that your momentum is starting to peter out, you hold backwards and charge another spin dash. Rinse, lather, repeat whenever and wherever possible. There's never a moment where top speed is out of reach. In Sonic 1, that's a completely different story. THERE, you had to earn your momentum. THERE, you had to keep up your momentum by using the level to your advantage. Ever since Sonic 2, we have speed boosters AND the spin dash to do the work of earning momentum for us.

Modern Sonic 3D stages don't have this sort of level design
soniczone0.com/games/sonic2/downloads/s2-cnz-act2map.png

So of course they'd feel different. Doesn't necessarily mean that the actual exploration is buggered. Almost every part of 3D stages have multiple junctions, whether the reward be big or small. Some places like Modern Chemical Plant zone can let you skip like 10-15 second of the level right at the beginning of the level if you know where to look. In Modern City Escape, you can avoid a good chunk of the downroad streetboarding and instead take it up to the rooftops of the houses on the sides instead, giving you a nice shortcut, etc. 

The gist of that quote I made was that SF4 doesn't prepare the beginners it tries to attract. In Skullgirls, the tutorials show you crossups, tick throws, how to deal with high low mixups and gives players some very useful information that can be applicable to many fighting games, while SF4 tries to help new players via crutches instead of teaching them. It's equivalent to a teacher with a struggling student. Skullgirls gives that student extra examples and walks them through step by step so they can learn the process. SF4 just gives them enough bonus marks so the student can get the hell out of their classroom. It's not the 'dumbing down' I'm upset with, it's the fact that SF4 leaves players clueless on every single aspect of its game.

I have to ask, did you play a lot of the classic games? It seems like you're criticizing it off of a video you saw because of how you're describing it.

Sonic 1 was more of an old school platforming feel with some speed, Sonic 2 was more "get to the exit", and Sonic 3 & K had the perfect blend of platforming and speed. The difference is you had to have an understanding of the physics to get the best momentum and get good times, you also had to understand the stage layouts to get to the best vantage points to move you forward really fast. If you lost your momentum you slowed down. Yes you got to the exit at the end but you had more control of how you got there and you were rewarded for doing so. It's like saying the Duke 3d played like Duke Forever. Yes you made it to the exit switch but Duke 3d was far less linear and rewarded exploration. The modern game didn't very much and the modern Sonic designs are more linear with weaker platforming. You're also being disingenous by saying you didn't have to keep your momentum. You only had boosters in Chemical plant zone and like once in Sonic 3 & K, the skates hovered you forward and even those often led into traps and other bad situations so they weren't instant like you got in the 3d versions.



One handed play you say? So much character interaction with the environment.

And again no. Spin Dashing is still affected by the physics of the game. You don't just stop instantly and do it again. This isn't true and if you kept stopping you gave up momentum. Even to do those Tool Assisted Speedruns you posted requires knowledge of the game and the physics. You had to get to the best vantage points and once you got your momentum you were faster than spin dash speed, which also slowed you down and you had to start over.

Boost is none of that. You turn into super sonic and then go back to your running speed while disregarding physics and enemies which just become bowling pins. Much less character stage interaction on top of the linear levels is why people say Boost to Win.

segaforums.wikia.com/wiki/Boost_to_Win

There is next to no exploration in the modern Sonic Games compared to the other. Yea you can go slightly off course to go faster, but that's it. What was a platforming/speed game turned into just a speed game with twitch reactions in multiple parts.

But you still mentioned it. Even if you thought it was unfair to beginners the dumbing down was something you brought up. It doesn't even matter at this point because it has nothing to do with Sonic.

[gurpwnder]

Feb 5, 2015 0:53:30 GMT -5 The Big Daddy C-Master said:

Feb 4, 2015 22:10:22 GMT -5 gurpwnder said:

stuff

I have to ask, did you play a lot of the classic games? It seems like you're criticizing it off of a video you saw because of how you're describing it.

Sonic 1 was more of an old school platforming feel with some speed, Sonic 2 was more "get to the exit", and Sonic 3 & K had the perfect blend of platforming and speed. The difference is you had to have an understanding of the physics to get the best momentum and get good times, you also had to understand the stage layouts to get to the best vantage points to move you forward really fast. If you lost your momentum you slowed down. Yes you got to the exit at the end but you had more control of how you got there and you were rewarded for doing so. It's like saying the Duke 3d played like Duke Forever. Yes you made it to the exit switch but Duke 3d was far less linear and rewarded exploration. The modern game didn't very much and the modern Sonic designs are more linear with weaker platforming. You're also being disingenous by saying you didn't have to keep your momentum. You only had boosters in Chemical plant zone and like once in Sonic 3 & K, the skates hovered you forward and even those often led into traps and other bad situations so they weren't instant like you got in the 3d versions.



One handed play you say? So much character interaction with the environment.

And again no. Spin Dashing is still affected by the physics of the game. You don't just stop instantly and do it again. This isn't true and if you kept stopping you gave up momentum. Even to do those Tool Assisted Speedruns you posted requires knowledge of the game and the physics. You had to get to the best vantage points and once you got your momentum you were faster than spin dash speed, which also slowed you down and you had to start over.

Boost is none of that. You turn into super sonic and then go back to your running speed while disregarding physics and enemies which just become bowling pins. Much less character stage interaction on top of the linear levels is why people say Boost to Win.

segaforums.wikia.com/wiki/Boost_to_Win

There is next to no exploration in the modern Sonic Games compared to the other. Yea you can go slightly off course to go faster, but that's it. What was a platforming/speed game turned into just a speed game with twitch reactions in multiple parts.

But you still mentioned it. Even if you thought it was unfair to beginners the dumbing down was something you brought up. It doesn't even matter at this point because it has nothing to do with Sonic.

I did, with a slow, meticulous explorative playstyle, similar to how I would treat a Metroid game. I wanted to uncover as many secret rings as possible to unlock Super Sonic feel rewarded for my efforts.

As I've said several times, there's no way in hell I'm going knock the classics. Sonic 3 and Knuckles is just a fantastic game in every aspect. I just don't think that the spin dash is the most perfectly balanced mechanic in the game. Why, in a game that was all about earning and keeping momentum were you able to just boost to beyond top normal running speed? Most inclines didn't even need that kind of speed, a lighter boost would've done the trick. That's all I'm criticizing about the Classic Sonic games. I AGREE that the level design is the best we've seen from Sonic. I AGREE that there is an abundance of exploration and rewards to be found. By saying "There's a point A and a point B", I'm not insulting the game, that's just a fact. You start at a point, and you finish the level at a designated point. The fun comes from the journey there, which S3+K delivers in spades.

I can like, even LOVE a game, but still find reasons to complain about certain aspects. I think Sonic Generations' restart system is absolutely terrible. Why do I have to pay a life to restart a level from the beginning? That's just going to make me exit out of the level, restart manually and keep my lives while forcing me to sit through some load screens. I wish they'd put more effort into making Classic Sonic emulate his classic physics, because rolling isn't as useful as it used to be, and his spin dash is cranked through the roof. I think that the story was a huge missed opportunity to poke fun at some elements of the series. The closest the game gets is with Knuckles calling Classic Sonic fat, which was cute. I wish the games later stages were more difficult, because while time trialing is good fun, I want the main quest to be more juicy as well. This is without a doubt one of the easiest games I have ever played. I wish Knuckles would get more love. The game only acknowledges Tails and Eggman / Robotnik, but Knuckles DID star in the greatest Sonic game of all time, yet is regulated to a side character along with the likes of Rouge, Vector, Amy, etc. I would've liked more interesting throwbacks, like a playable Knuckles or Tails in the classic stages. I'd like to see some more polish in the game as well. In Modern Chemical Plant zone, you can clip through a building and glitch through the level. It seems that this game was rushed to meet a deadline, a practise which almost killed the series in the past.

Yeah, I already said that Unleashed's problem was that it didn't require much input from the player. The boost mechanic was reworked a couple of times through the series. In Colours, you could only boost when you collected white wisps. In Generations, they incentivised time trials and gave players a multitude of pathways through each level, and I found the results to be quite satisfying myself.



If you're going to claim that I talk about dumbing down "all the time", I'm going to take offence to that and argue against that claim. And again, the point wasn't about dumbing down. The idea was that the game didn't teach players how to succeed. I complained that giving a player crutches isn't a good way of helping them to learn fundamentals for the game, or the genre.

I'm attacking the game's method of teaching / assisting new players, not the mechanics being 'dumbed down'. That was the entire point of my rant. The title read something like "SF4: Who does it appeal to?". Almost 100% of my gripes about SF4 come from its inability to teach new players anything about any of its mechanics and just being unintuitive in general.

If you still think that I talk about dumbing down all the time, then show me. PM me if you want, but I don't think that I do often and I will continue to argue against that claim.

[The Big Daddy C-Master]

Feb 5, 2015 1:48:27 GMT -5 gurpwnder said:

Feb 5, 2015 0:53:30 GMT -5 The Big Daddy C-Master said:

I have to ask, did you play a lot of the classic games? It seems like you're criticizing it off of a video you saw because of how you're describing it.

Sonic 1 was more of an old school platforming feel with some speed, Sonic 2 was more "get to the exit", and Sonic 3 & K had the perfect blend of platforming and speed. The difference is you had to have an understanding of the physics to get the best momentum and get good times, you also had to understand the stage layouts to get to the best vantage points to move you forward really fast. If you lost your momentum you slowed down. Yes you got to the exit at the end but you had more control of how you got there and you were rewarded for doing so. It's like saying the Duke 3d played like Duke Forever. Yes you made it to the exit switch but Duke 3d was far less linear and rewarded exploration. The modern game didn't very much and the modern Sonic designs are more linear with weaker platforming. You're also being disingenous by saying you didn't have to keep your momentum. You only had boosters in Chemical plant zone and like once in Sonic 3 & K, the skates hovered you forward and even those often led into traps and other bad situations so they weren't instant like you got in the 3d versions.



One handed play you say? So much character interaction with the environment.

And again no. Spin Dashing is still affected by the physics of the game. You don't just stop instantly and do it again. This isn't true and if you kept stopping you gave up momentum. Even to do those Tool Assisted Speedruns you posted requires knowledge of the game and the physics. You had to get to the best vantage points and once you got your momentum you were faster than spin dash speed, which also slowed you down and you had to start over.

Boost is none of that. You turn into super sonic and then go back to your running speed while disregarding physics and enemies which just become bowling pins. Much less character stage interaction on top of the linear levels is why people say Boost to Win.

segaforums.wikia.com/wiki/Boost_to_Win

There is next to no exploration in the modern Sonic Games compared to the other. Yea you can go slightly off course to go faster, but that's it. What was a platforming/speed game turned into just a speed game with twitch reactions in multiple parts.

But you still mentioned it. Even if you thought it was unfair to beginners the dumbing down was something you brought up. It doesn't even matter at this point because it has nothing to do with Sonic.

I did, with a slow, meticulous explorative playstyle, similar to how I would treat a Metroid game. I wanted to uncover as many secret rings as possible to unlock Super Sonic feel rewarded for my efforts.

As I've said several times, there's no way in hell I'm going knock the classics. Sonic 3 and Knuckles is just a fantastic game in every aspect. I just don't think that the spin dash is the most perfectly balanced mechanic in the game. Why, in a game that was all about earning and keeping momentum were you able to just boost to beyond top normal running speed? Most inclines didn't even need that kind of speed, a lighter boost would've done the trick. That's all I'm criticizing about the Classic Sonic games. I AGREE that the level design is the best we've seen from Sonic. I AGREE that there is an abundance of exploration and rewards to be found. By saying "There's a point A and a point B", I'm not insulting the game, that's just a fact. You start at a point, and you finish the level at a designated point. The fun comes from the journey there, which S3+K delivers in spades.

I can like, even LOVE a game, but still find reasons to complain about certain aspects. I think Sonic Generations' restart system is absolutely terrible. Why do I have to pay a life to restart a level from the beginning? That's just going to make me exit out of the level, restart manually and keep my lives while forcing me to sit through some load screens. I wish they'd put more effort into making Classic Sonic emulate his classic physics, because rolling isn't as useful as it used to be, and his spin dash is cranked through the roof. I think that the story was a huge missed opportunity to poke fun at some elements of the series. The closest the game gets is with Knuckles calling Classic Sonic fat, which was cute. I wish the games later stages were more difficult, because while time trialing is good fun, I want the main quest to be more juicy as well. This is without a doubt one of the easiest games I have ever played. I wish Knuckles would get more love. The game only acknowledges Tails and Eggman / Robotnik, but Knuckles DID star in the greatest Sonic game of all time, yet is regulated to a side character along with the likes of Rouge, Vector, Amy, etc. I would've liked more interesting throwbacks, like a playable Knuckles or Tails in the classic stages. I'd like to see some more polish in the game as well. In Modern Chemical Plant zone, you can clip through a building and glitch through the level. It seems that this game was rushed to meet a deadline, a practise which almost killed the series in the past.

Yeah, I already said that Unleashed's problem was that it didn't require much input from the player. The boost mechanic was reworked a couple of times through the series. In Colours, you could only boost when you collected white wisps. In Generations, they incentivised time trials and gave players a multitude of pathways through each level, and I found the results to be quite satisfying myself.



If you're going to claim that I talk about dumbing down "all the time", I'm going to take offence to that and argue against that claim. And again, the point wasn't about dumbing down. The idea was that the game didn't teach players how to succeed. I complained that giving a player crutches isn't a good way of helping them to learn fundamentals for the game, or the genre.

I'm attacking the game's method of teaching / assisting new players, not the mechanics being 'dumbed down'. That was the entire point of my rant. The title read something like "SF4: Who does it appeal to?". Almost 100% of my gripes about SF4 come from its inability to teach new players anything about any of its mechanics and just being unintuitive in general.

If you still think that I talk about dumbing down all the time, then show me. PM me if you want, but I don't think that I do often and I will continue to argue against that claim.

The same way I played it. I explore everything. Spin Dashing won't matter much to you anyways because in that playstyle you're constantly breaking off of the path anyways. I got a lot of use out of glide, climb, and fly in that playstyle because it helped vertically and horizontally across gaps.

You can complain about what you like or don't like. I criticize things I don't like either. It's just that your logic "If I don't like something I point out the negative, and when I like something I point out the positive" sounds like "If I like it, it's good, and if I hate it then it's bad." I feel you are making claims to the extreme to say that spin dash is like boosting, when it's factually just not. It's like saying normal combos are just like custom combos because you hit your opponent in a sequence of moves. I mean in application they're just not the same.

Even if you felt it was overpowered, you still had to use momentum and the Second and Third game had FAR more momentum than the first game that you would lose if you spin dash. That's just a fact based on level design.

How one can hate spin dash so much and be for boost when boost is just so blatantly braindead and overpowered and say they're the same thing baffles me. Boost requires no giving up of any momentum, you can do it in the air, hell they apparently think players are too stupid to get their own rings because it does that too and you get meter from the rings! When it's all done you just go back to your normal speed. Shit at least super sonic made you lose all of your rings in the past game so you were screwed if you managed them poorly. Boost is just the modernization of spin dash, just dumbed down more for modern audiences, but whatever. The older games simply had better design and the design is what made Sonic so good. You were rewarded for going fast and keeping momentum instead of "just press one button".

Well I said you do talk about things being dumbed down and the post says exactly that. You can reference one thing but the post was clear. I mean I don't even really care about it, but you asked where you said it and I showed you. You can disagree with it, but I mean it's written down. That's just how you see it I guess. I'm not saying that's all you talk about, but you do talk about it.

[gurpwnder]

Feb 5, 2015 2:19:11 GMT -5 The Big Daddy C-Master said:

Feb 5, 2015 1:48:27 GMT -5 gurpwnder said:

I did, with a slow, meticulous explorative playstyle, similar to how I would treat a Metroid game. I wanted to uncover as many secret rings as possible to unlock Super Sonic feel rewarded for my efforts.

As I've said several times, there's no way in hell I'm going knock the classics. Sonic 3 and Knuckles is just a fantastic game in every aspect. I just don't think that the spin dash is the most perfectly balanced mechanic in the game. Why, in a game that was all about earning and keeping momentum were you able to just boost to beyond top normal running speed? Most inclines didn't even need that kind of speed, a lighter boost would've done the trick. That's all I'm criticizing about the Classic Sonic games. I AGREE that the level design is the best we've seen from Sonic. I AGREE that there is an abundance of exploration and rewards to be found. By saying "There's a point A and a point B", I'm not insulting the game, that's just a fact. You start at a point, and you finish the level at a designated point. The fun comes from the journey there, which S3+K delivers in spades.

I can like, even LOVE a game, but still find reasons to complain about certain aspects. I think Sonic Generations' restart system is absolutely terrible. Why do I have to pay a life to restart a level from the beginning? That's just going to make me exit out of the level, restart manually and keep my lives while forcing me to sit through some load screens. I wish they'd put more effort into making Classic Sonic emulate his classic physics, because rolling isn't as useful as it used to be, and his spin dash is cranked through the roof. I think that the story was a huge missed opportunity to poke fun at some elements of the series. The closest the game gets is with Knuckles calling Classic Sonic fat, which was cute. I wish the games later stages were more difficult, because while time trialing is good fun, I want the main quest to be more juicy as well. This is without a doubt one of the easiest games I have ever played. I wish Knuckles would get more love. The game only acknowledges Tails and Eggman / Robotnik, but Knuckles DID star in the greatest Sonic game of all time, yet is regulated to a side character along with the likes of Rouge, Vector, Amy, etc. I would've liked more interesting throwbacks, like a playable Knuckles or Tails in the classic stages. I'd like to see some more polish in the game as well. In Modern Chemical Plant zone, you can clip through a building and glitch through the level. It seems that this game was rushed to meet a deadline, a practise which almost killed the series in the past.

Yeah, I already said that Unleashed's problem was that it didn't require much input from the player. The boost mechanic was reworked a couple of times through the series. In Colours, you could only boost when you collected white wisps. In Generations, they incentivised time trials and gave players a multitude of pathways through each level, and I found the results to be quite satisfying myself.



If you're going to claim that I talk about dumbing down "all the time", I'm going to take offence to that and argue against that claim. And again, the point wasn't about dumbing down. The idea was that the game didn't teach players how to succeed. I complained that giving a player crutches isn't a good way of helping them to learn fundamentals for the game, or the genre.

I'm attacking the game's method of teaching / assisting new players, not the mechanics being 'dumbed down'. That was the entire point of my rant. The title read something like "SF4: Who does it appeal to?". Almost 100% of my gripes about SF4 come from its inability to teach new players anything about any of its mechanics and just being unintuitive in general.

If you still think that I talk about dumbing down all the time, then show me. PM me if you want, but I don't think that I do often and I will continue to argue against that claim.

The same way I played it. I explore everything. Spin Dashing won't matter much to you anyways because in that playstyle you're constantly breaking off of the path anyways. I got a lot of use out of glide, climb, and fly in that playstyle because it helped vertically and horizontally across gaps.

You can complain about what you like or don't like. I criticize things I don't like either. It's just that your logic "If I don't like something I point out the negative, and when I like something I point out the positive" sounds like "If I like it, it's good, and if I hate it then it's bad." I feel you are making claims to the extreme to say that spin dash is like boosting, when it's factually just not. It's like saying normal combos are just like custom combos because you hit your opponent in a sequence of moves. I mean in application they're just not the same.

Even if you felt it was overpowered, you still had to use momentum and the Second and Third game had FAR more momentum than the first game that you would lose if you spin dash. That's just a fact based on level design.

How one can hate spin dash so much and be for boost when boost is just so blatantly braindead and overpowered and say they're the same thing baffles me. Boost requires no giving up of any momentum, you can do it in the air, hell they apparently think players are too stupid to get their own rings because it does that too and you get meter from the rings! When it's all done you just go back to your normal speed. Shit at least super sonic made you lose all of your rings in the past game so you were screwed if you managed them poorly. Boost is just the modernization of spin dash, just dumbed down more for modern audiences, but whatever. The older games simply had better design and the design is what made Sonic so good. You were rewarded for going fast and keeping momentum instead of "just press one button".

Well I said you do talk about things being dumbed down and the post says exactly that. You can reference one thing but the post was clear. I mean I don't even really care about it, but you asked where you said it and I showed you. You can disagree with it, but I mean it's written down. That's just how you see it I guess. I'm not saying that's all you talk about, but you do talk about it.

I can be for one and against the other because of the change in focus of the games. In Sonic 1, 2, 3+K and CD, the games were HEAVILY momentum based. In post-Classic games, we saw the focus shift towards speed instead. I've already said that Generations is built with time trials in mind, and I think that boost works well in that regard. The Classic games, being so heavily momentum based, the ability to just rocket to beyond max typical running speed in the blink of an eye is just jarring to me. I'll pose the question yet again: Is THAT much of a boost necessary? I think not, and it undermines the process of BUILDING momentum.

Also, I've said multiple times that they're NOT the same. I was just drawing a connection. The connection being that both allow you to attack, while simultaneously advancing forward beyond typical top running speed (again, top running speed being defined as holding right on the analogue stick / d-oad). This isn't a debate over which game is harder, which game is better or which game has better level design. This is just me posing the question: "Is Spin Dash balanced?" "Is the HUGE boost really necessary?"


So you've given me an example of me attacking SF4's method of teaching and are now attempting to present it to me as me 'complaining about dumbing down ALL the time'? You're not doing a good job convincing me, mate. I do remember complaining about it once in a modern gaming thread. That's about it. Hardly 'all the time', and I complain about a LOT of things.

[The Big Daddy C-Master]

Feb 5, 2015 2:51:06 GMT -5 gurpwnder said:

Feb 5, 2015 2:19:11 GMT -5 The Big Daddy C-Master said:

The same way I played it. I explore everything. Spin Dashing won't matter much to you anyways because in that playstyle you're constantly breaking off of the path anyways. I got a lot of use out of glide, climb, and fly in that playstyle because it helped vertically and horizontally across gaps.

You can complain about what you like or don't like. I criticize things I don't like either. It's just that your logic "If I don't like something I point out the negative, and when I like something I point out the positive" sounds like "If I like it, it's good, and if I hate it then it's bad." I feel you are making claims to the extreme to say that spin dash is like boosting, when it's factually just not. It's like saying normal combos are just like custom combos because you hit your opponent in a sequence of moves. I mean in application they're just not the same.

Even if you felt it was overpowered, you still had to use momentum and the Second and Third game had FAR more momentum than the first game that you would lose if you spin dash. That's just a fact based on level design.

How one can hate spin dash so much and be for boost when boost is just so blatantly braindead and overpowered and say they're the same thing baffles me. Boost requires no giving up of any momentum, you can do it in the air, hell they apparently think players are too stupid to get their own rings because it does that too and you get meter from the rings! When it's all done you just go back to your normal speed. Shit at least super sonic made you lose all of your rings in the past game so you were screwed if you managed them poorly. Boost is just the modernization of spin dash, just dumbed down more for modern audiences, but whatever. The older games simply had better design and the design is what made Sonic so good. You were rewarded for going fast and keeping momentum instead of "just press one button".

Well I said you do talk about things being dumbed down and the post says exactly that. You can reference one thing but the post was clear. I mean I don't even really care about it, but you asked where you said it and I showed you. You can disagree with it, but I mean it's written down. That's just how you see it I guess. I'm not saying that's all you talk about, but you do talk about it.

I can be for one and against the other because of the change in focus of the games. In Sonic 1, 2, 3+K and CD, the games were HEAVILY momentum based. In post-Classic games, we saw the focus shift towards speed instead. I've already said that Generations is built with time trials in mind, and I think that boost works well in that regard. The Classic games, being so heavily momentum based, the ability to just rocket to beyond max typical running speed in the blink of an eye is just jarring to me. I'll pose the question yet again: Is THAT much of a boost necessary? I think not, and it undermines the process of BUILDING momentum.

Also, I've said multiple times that they're NOT the same. I was just drawing a connection. The connection being that both allow you to attack, while simultaneously advancing forward beyond typical top running speed (again, top running speed being defined as holding right on the analogue stick / d-oad). This isn't a debate over which game is harder, which game is better or which game has better level design. This is just me posing the question: "Is Spin Dash balanced?" "Is the HUGE boost really necessary?"


So you've given me an example of me attacking SF4's method of teaching and are now attempting to present it to me as me 'complaining about dumbing down ALL the time'? You're not doing a good job convincing me, mate. I do remember complaining about it once in a modern gaming thread. That's about it. Hardly 'all the time', and I complain about a LOT of things.

Except momentum is what made those games good and spin dash still works with the game's physics. If you explored a lot then it didn't really matter. Your momentum was still better if you kept it than spin dashing.

You did try to draw a parallel. You said boost being a one button press "to win" was like spin dash, when they are in fact quite different. The new linearity of the sonic games plus boosting taking away the physics is why people say "boost to win" it's not just boost being spin dash for dummies, but the game being too linear and not requiring much player/environemnt interaction as much as it's just the character. Spin dash was stronger in generations while they nerfed the other stuff. Boost clearly has a more dramatic effect on gameplay since it just outright negates physics.

No, you made several points about the game being dumbed down as well as criticize the teaching. My point is if you're going to point out one game being dumbed down in some aspects, then admit boosting did the same. You do complain about a lot of stuff though, that's part of your charm.

[gurpwnder]

Feb 5, 2015 3:16:06 GMT -5 The Big Daddy C-Master said:

Feb 5, 2015 2:51:06 GMT -5 gurpwnder said:

stuff

Except momentum is what made those games good and spin dash still works with the game's physics. If you explored a lot then it didn't really matter. Your momentum was still better if you kept it than spin dashing.

You did try to draw a parallel. You said boost being a one button press "to win" was like spin dash, when they are in fact quite different. The new linearity of the sonic games plus boosting taking away the physics is why people say "boost to win" it's not just boost being spin dash for dummies, but the game being too linear and not requiring much player/environemnt interaction as much as it's just the character. Spin dash was stronger in generations while they nerfed the other stuff. Boost clearly has a more dramatic effect on gameplay since it just outright negates physics.

No, you made several points about the game being dumbed down as well as criticize the teaching. My point is if you're going to point out one game being dumbed down in some aspects, then admit boosting did the same. You do complain about a lot of stuff though, that's part of your charm.

Yeah, but heavily momentum based gameplay was pretty much limited to those 4 games. Since then, the series has had much more of a speed-centric theme.

I'd like an answer to the question, though. "Is the sheer amount of speed given to the player from the spin dash really necessary?" Was it necessary to boost Sonic far beyond his typical top running speed for the sake of climbing some inclines, in the same game where speed boosters were introduced?

I've already outright said that the main quest of Generations is one of the easiest games I have ever played. I liken the game moreso to a racing game's time trial mode and because I do so, I feel that the boost works very well by giving the modern Sonic stages a lot of energy and by giving the game a sense of speed that a Sonic game rightfully deserves. I'm happy with Generations in particular because I find the levels to be very well crafted with tonnes of shortcuts for those who can find them.

Point them out then. I've already explained the purpose of my rant several times, it was an attack on SF4's inability to teach the new players it attracted anything about the game. I still assert that I don't often bring up 'dumbing down' as a complaint, certainly not enough to warrant the claim "all the time". For example, I didn't attack the fact that shortcuts existed and made the game easier, I attacked the fact that as a crutch for new players, it doesn't help them learn the game nearly as well as an in-depth tutorial would have.

[The Big Daddy C-Master]

Feb 5, 2015 3:58:36 GMT -5 gurpwnder said:

Feb 5, 2015 3:16:06 GMT -5 The Big Daddy C-Master said:

Except momentum is what made those games good and spin dash still works with the game's physics. If you explored a lot then it didn't really matter. Your momentum was still better if you kept it than spin dashing.

You did try to draw a parallel. You said boost being a one button press "to win" was like spin dash, when they are in fact quite different. The new linearity of the sonic games plus boosting taking away the physics is why people say "boost to win" it's not just boost being spin dash for dummies, but the game being too linear and not requiring much player/environemnt interaction as much as it's just the character. Spin dash was stronger in generations while they nerfed the other stuff. Boost clearly has a more dramatic effect on gameplay since it just outright negates physics.

No, you made several points about the game being dumbed down as well as criticize the teaching. My point is if you're going to point out one game being dumbed down in some aspects, then admit boosting did the same. You do complain about a lot of stuff though, that's part of your charm.

Yeah, but heavily momentum based gameplay was pretty much limited to those 4 games. Since then, the series has had much more of a speed-centric theme.

I'd like an answer to the question, though. "Is the sheer amount of speed given to the player from the spin dash really necessary?" Was it necessary to boost Sonic far beyond his typical top running speed for the sake of climbing some inclines, in the same game where speed boosters were introduced?

I've already outright said that the main quest of Generations is one of the easiest games I have ever played. I liken the game moreso to a racing game's time trial mode and because I do so, I feel that the boost works very well by giving the modern Sonic stages a lot of energy and by giving the game a sense of speed that a Sonic game rightfully deserves. I'm happy with Generations in particular because I find the levels to be very well crafted with tonnes of shortcuts for those who can find them.

Point them out then. I've already explained the purpose of my rant several times, it was an attack on SF4's inability to teach the new players it attracted anything about the game. I still assert that I don't often bring up 'dumbing down' as a complaint, certainly not enough to warrant the claim "all the time". For example, I didn't attack the fact that shortcuts existed and made the game easier, I attacked the fact that as a crutch for new players, it doesn't help them learn the game nearly as well as an in-depth tutorial would have.

1, 2, 3, cd, and some game gear games; the 3d games did play different from those though. You mentioned it had a point a to point b approach before, but it's clear the design is different. I don't care about what is done since when, I care about what's good.

Spin Dashing was needed in those games due to the changes in the level design and 2 and 3 not being as linear. Could it have been tweaked, sure why not. But it's much better than the silly spindash you get in Generations. Generations was solid and the closest thing we'll get to the classic Sonic games, still a bit linear and blocky in some areas but ah well.

I just pointed them out and you said you didn't do it. I mean if we can't go by what was written down what can we go by? It also depends on the game, sometimes you complain about story elements and I glimpsed your melee argument, but I'm sure that game was artificially harder than the other Smash games due to hidden tech.