Sonic the Hedgehog Discussion and Comparisons

[gurpwnder]

I can't quote your last post for some reason, because it gives me nowhere to type.

Again, you seem to think I have a grudge. A game in a series is inevitably going to be compared to those before it. If a game learns nothing and is worse than its immediate predecessor in every way, it will look very bad. 
I don't care about this game on its own merits. The first word in the title is "Sonic". There comes a certain set of expectations when reading that name. High speed platforming, some intricate level design. A game this late in the series is also expected to improve upon the older games. If I compare this game to many of Sonic's other best titles, this game falls short in every way. The game may be adequate on its own rights (Highly unlikely given the horrible control scheme and poor explanations all around), but this is a SONIC game, which means it will be treated as such. I refuse to REVIEW individual Sonic games, because this is a Lost World review. Comparisons will definitely be drawn though.

It's like comparing Kobe Bryant's basketball skills to a sack of potates. "Hey Kobe (old Sonic level design), you play like a sack of potatoes (Sonic Lost World's flat level design)". Kobe would likely get offended by that statement.

Again, you're wrong about it being the closest. At VERY LEAST, every other Sonic game requires Sonic to build speed to reach his top speed. In Adventure, you needed a second or two before Sonic would reach top speed. In Generations from a stop, it takes Sonic some time to build speed to his max running speed should he not boost. In Lost World, from a stop it's 'Hold B. Analogue stick forward. Instant max running speed.' Another severe exaggeration you're making.

About you saying that this is the worst Sonic game. You said this has the worst Sonic sections out of any Sonic game. Sonic is the star and main attraction of his games. If this is the worst Sonic has ever been, that's a sad state for Lost World. Sonic Adventure has incredible lows (lol Big), but has some highs (Sonic), who is the star of the game and has the most playtime out of all the characters. Lost World is below average at all times. The level design being the flattest any Sonic fan has ever seen, the gimmick list being the longest it has ever been, the control scheme being overly complicated and screwing things up, the parkour system getting a very poor set of explainiations. At its best, Lost World strips most of Sonic's interesting level layouts, and gives us something completely different than Sonic fare for an average Mario-esque game. At its worst, Lost World is a mess that has no idea what it wants to do.

Your homing attack quotes got screwed up and mixed with what I said. Repeat what you said, but don't quote me next time and I'll be able to understand what you're saying. However, you're mixing up Lost World 3DS and Wii U yet again.
On the Wii U, kick and bounce are both the same button. Don't believe me? Here: sonic.wikia.com/wiki/Bounce_Attack and sonic.wikia.com/wiki/Flying_Kick. Enjoy.

[JACK-2]

I won't quote you man and I don't wanna imply that you have a grudge. It just seems that way, but let's ignore the name calling [Been a reasonably cool debate]. And, let's us focus on the points.

Building speed and level design.

The flat level design accusation that you made seemed to be a generally complaint. But, I disagree with it. First off, which levels are you talking about? 2-D or 3-D? Here are some levels with slopes, hill and inclines. Infact you need spin-dash to climb vertical in order to get access to upper areas during 2-D parkour.



Notice the slopes and how sonic needs momentum. Now, you're right about the run button running spin-dash for slopes. However, the spin-dash can travel vertically and that is unique. You can't do that in older Sonics.

Homing Attacks

You said you dislike the fact that Sonic automatically hits what he targets and questioned what this new homing attack adds. My response was that it makes it more streamlined because Sonic can now easily destroy close enemies at once. The video you posted showed sonic clearing a gap with classic homing attack chains. That still exsist in Lost World:



The difference is there are enemy types that cannot be destroyed in their normal state with Homing attack [Like the enemies from Hill top zone making a cameo] and that electric enemies require the multi-functionality of the new homing attack. You can't implement this in the older Sonics because the timing for the electric enemies and the distance between the gap means no amount of waiting will give you an opening. Plus there's the old enemies from hilltop zone that can't be killed by homing attack off the bat.

Building up speed and comparisons to older Sonic games

No, they do not. Because of boost, you can build speed so easily with one button mechanic. Adventure that maybe true but not the games that have boost. Environment is worth less with boost. Why do slopes even matter if you can reach max speed with one button?

[The Big Daddy C-Master]

Well 3 things:

1. Gurpwnder could you rate the game in two categories then? As a game *and* as a Sonic game?

2. I've never let characters keep me from buying a game. If a game had other characters and played amazing I'd prefer that over an awful game with just Sonic in it. Any day any time.

3. Mario has had different characters in their game as well. Luigi, Peach, Toad, Yoshi. Don't see the problem.

Either way you're both getting frustrated. Cool down lol. Let's remember it's a video game discussion. Nothing more.

[JACK-2]

It's not the character but the gameplay. I also included werehog in this comparison as well. Those gameplay types aren't related to platforming at all.

[gurpwnder]

Building Speed

Whenever I bring this topic up, you always bring up "lol boost insta speed", when "lol spindash insta speed" has been around since Sonic 2.

When I am talking about building speed, I am talking about moving Sonic from a stand still to his STANDARD top running speed. This just involves me holding a direction on a d-pad, tilting an analogue stick, or holding a run button in Lost World's case. This is something EVERY Sonic can do, so this is the most fair comparison.

Sonic 1-3: These were the games that made you feel it the most. It took Sonic time to accelerate up to his top running speed.
3D Sonic (A1, 2, Heroes, Shadow, 06): When you put max pressure down on the analogue stick, Sonic would start running, but would take a few seconds to accelerate to his top sprinting speed.
Boost 3D Sonic: When Sonic started from a stop, it was a similar story here. It would take Sonic 2-3 seconds accelerate to his maximum standard running speed.
Lost World: When starting from a stop, all I have to do is hold down the run button. As soon as I tilt the analogue stick down all the way, Sonic is at the maximum running speed.


Lost World is the odd duck here.

[gurpwnder]

Jan 12, 2015 0:11:51 GMT -5 The Big Daddy C-Master said:

Well 3 things:

1. Gurpwnder could you rate the game in two categories then? As a game *and* as a Sonic game?

2. I've never let characters keep me from buying a game. If a game had other characters and played amazing I'd prefer that over an awful game with just Sonic in it. Any day any time.

3. Mario has had different characters in their game as well. Luigi, Peach, Toad, Yoshi. Don't see the problem.

Either way you're both getting frustrated. Cool down lol. Let's remember it's a video game discussion. Nothing more.

I am reviewing this game as a Sonic game, because that's what it is. It's not a brand new franchise, it is a long running franchise and therefore builds some expectations. When I play Mario, I expect linear platforming. When I play CoD, I expect some FPS action. When I play Sonic, I expect Sonic level design, Sonic controls and some trademark high speed platforming.

My negative opinion from this game comes from the fact that this game is such a massive step backwards for the blue blur.

[gurpwnder]

I'll reply further tomorrow, my internet's crapping out on me right now.

[The Big Daddy C-Master]

Jan 12, 2015 1:13:23 GMT -5 gurpwnder said:

Jan 12, 2015 0:11:51 GMT -5 The Big Daddy C-Master said:

Well 3 things:

1. Gurpwnder could you rate the game in two categories then? As a game *and* as a Sonic game?

2. I've never let characters keep me from buying a game. If a game had other characters and played amazing I'd prefer that over an awful game with just Sonic in it. Any day any time.

3. Mario has had different characters in their game as well. Luigi, Peach, Toad, Yoshi. Don't see the problem.

Either way you're both getting frustrated. Cool down lol. Let's remember it's a video game discussion. Nothing more.

I am reviewing this game as a Sonic game, because that's what it is. It's not a brand new franchise, it is a long running franchise and therefore builds some expectations. When I play Mario, I expect linear platforming. When I play CoD, I expect some FPS action. When I play Sonic, I expect Sonic level design, Sonic controls and some trademark high speed platforming.

My negative opinion from this game comes from the fact that this game is such a massive step backwards for the blue blur.

I'm not asking you that though. I know you don't like it as a Sonic game, but as an actual game, where do you see it as? I was curious how you feel about both.

[gurpwnder]

Jan 12, 2015 1:27:53 GMT -5 The Big Daddy C-Master said:

Jan 12, 2015 1:13:23 GMT -5 gurpwnder said:

I'm not asking you that though. I know you don't like it as a Sonic game, but as an actual game, where do you see it as? I was curious how you feel about both.

That I cannot do. All I see is disappointment from past games, and I can't put those feelings aside to treat it neutrally.

[The Big Daddy C-Master]

Jan 12, 2015 1:40:33 GMT -5 gurpwnder said:

Jan 12, 2015 1:27:53 GMT -5 The Big Daddy C-Master said:

I'm not asking you that though. I know you don't like it as a Sonic game, but as an actual game, where do you see it as? I was curious how you feel about both.

That I cannot do. All I see is disappointment from past games, and I can't put those feelings aside to treat it neutrally.

Well at least you're honest heh.

[JACK-2]

Jan 12, 2015 1:10:45 GMT -5 gurpwnder said:

snip

Building Speed

So, you mean Sonic's base speed without any speed-boost? My bad then, yes then I agree without boost or spin-dash then it is bad that sonic cannot accelerate without a run button. Hell, he can't even reach his max speed with spin-dash. His max speed is during the mach speed sections which you have no control over. So, you never reach his max speed on your own. That is lame.

[gurpwnder]

Jan 12, 2015 5:55:28 GMT -5 JACK-2 said:

Jan 12, 2015 1:10:45 GMT -5 gurpwnder said:

snip

Building Speed

So, you mean Sonic's base speed without any speed-boost? My bad then, yes then I agree without boost or spin-dash then it is bad that sonic cannot accelerate without a run button. Hell, he can't even reach his max speed with spin-dash. His max speed is during the mach speed sections which you have no control over. So, you never reach his max speed on your own. That is lame.

Yeah, man. That's what I've been saying the moment I brought up the addition of a run button. It's against Sonic tradition. 

I'm not going to knock Lost World for giving us the slowest Sonic I've seen yet, since his new slower speed does actually fit in with the style of platforming he does here. I'm just against the fact that the platforming here isn't Sonic either.

[JACK-2]

Sup man?

I've been playing some lost world and what you said about the homing attack. Wow, why would they make the reticle target far off enemies like that? It's so stupid. The homing attack only works well when the enemies are lined up in a row.

[gurpwnder]

Jan 13, 2015 0:51:07 GMT -5 JACK-2 said:

Sup man?

I've been playing some lost world and what you said about the homing attack. Wow, why would they make the reticle target far off enemies like that? It's so stupid. The homing attack only works well when the enemies are lined up in a row.

On one hand, I'm sorry that you're spending time on this game.
On the other, I hope that experiencing this game will hopefully highlight why I don't like this SONIC game so much.

If you like Mario games, that's cool. This game'll be right up your alley and you're right - I will never convince you that it's bad. I was very forceful and adamant that this game was bad, and I'm sorry.
But you have met me halfway and recognized that the Sonic sections in this game are among the worst the series has seen, so I'm at least happy.

Play through it, and lemme know what you think.

[JACK-2]

Thanks, and you don't have to apologize. I get why you dislike this game. I dunno, I se things here and there about this game. Some of them are interesting others not so much.

[The Big Daddy C-Master]

Jan 16, 2015 13:06:49 GMT -5 JACK-2 said:

Thanks, and you don't have to apologize. I get why you dislike this game. I dunno, I se things here and there about this game. Some of them are interesting others not so much.

Glad you guys are starting to see somewhat eye to eye.

[gurpwnder]

Jan 16, 2015 13:06:49 GMT -5 JACK-2 said:

Thanks, and you don't have to apologize. I get why you dislike this game. I dunno, I se things here and there about this game. Some of them are interesting others not so much.

I guess I'm a lot less forgiving than you are. Aw well, different strokes for different folks, eh?

[JACK-2]

Jan 18, 2015 3:07:30 GMT -5 gurpwnder said:

I guess I'm a lot less forgiving than you are. Aw well, different strokes for different folks, eh?

Nah, you should see my rants on SF4. I absolutely hated that game and it drove me off the wall. So, did Capcom in general. I just lowered my expectations because gaming as a whole has become so dumbed down.

[The Big Daddy C-Master]

Jan 18, 2015 3:22:25 GMT -5 JACK-2 said:

Jan 18, 2015 3:07:30 GMT -5 gurpwnder said:

I guess I'm a lot less forgiving than you are. Aw well, different strokes for different folks, eh?

Nah, you should see my rants on SF4. I absolutely hated that game and it drove me off the wall. So, did Capcom in general. I just lowered my expectations because gaming as a whole has become so dumbed down.

Is this you?

[gurpwnder]

Jan 18, 2015 3:22:25 GMT -5 JACK-2 said:

Jan 18, 2015 3:07:30 GMT -5 gurpwnder said:

I guess I'm a lot less forgiving than you are. Aw well, different strokes for different folks, eh?

Nah, you should see my rants on SF4. I absolutely hated that game and it drove me off the wall. So, did Capcom in general. I just lowered my expectations because gaming as a whole has become so dumbed down.

LOL

My first post on this site was a giant rant about how SF4 was a failure of a game looking at its mechanics and its direction.

[JACK-2]

Yeah, I've mellowed out. I went from hating the game so much and not wanting to touch it. To playing it from time to time, still not a good game.

[JACK-2]

Jan 18, 2015 4:56:44 GMT -5 The Big Daddy C-Master said:

Is this you?

That was hard to watch, but when you make everything counter-able. . .well.

[gurpwnder]

But yeah. It seems that the stuff that drives me up the wall about Lost World doesn't really bother you so much, so it seems that we'll never see eye to eye on this matter.

[The Big Daddy C-Master]

Jan 18, 2015 22:17:11 GMT -5 JACK-2 said:

Yeah, I've mellowed out. I went from hating the game so much and not wanting to touch it. To playing it from time to time, still not a good game.

Remind me again why you hate it in technical detail. I know you think it's dumbed down but what exactly bothers you?

[The Big Daddy C-Master]

Jan 18, 2015 22:18:50 GMT -5 JACK-2 said:

Jan 18, 2015 4:56:44 GMT -5 The Big Daddy C-Master said:

Is this you?

That was hard to watch, but when you make everything counter-able. . .well.

People were saying "not all fights are like that". But a significant amount of them are. Sure you have enemies you can fight who have a slightly different approach but it isn't much.

Old school games didn't have all of that stuff yet the fighting was a challenge.

[JACK-2]

Jan 19, 2015 1:19:19 GMT -5 The Big Daddy C-Master said:

Remind me again why you hate it in technical detail. I know you think it's dumbed down but what exactly bothers you?

They basically took Third Strikes engine: [Same inputs: jab+short = Throw, Focus replaces UOH, 3P+3P = Taunts, Quick-Standing by tapping down on impact, etc] Dumbed down the inputs and flooded the game with cast members to appeal to fanboys. All while bashing SF3 and treating this game like the second coming. That was my first issue with this game.

[JACK-2]

Jan 19, 2015 1:20:50 GMT -5 The Big Daddy C-Master said:

People were saying "not all fights are like that". But a significant amount of them are. Sure you have enemies you can fight who have a slightly different approach but it isn't much.

Old school games didn't have all of that stuff yet the fighting was a challenge.

They broke the counter system. You couldn't do that nonsense in asylum.

[The Big Daddy C-Master]

Jan 19, 2015 14:14:25 GMT -5 JACK-2 said:

Jan 19, 2015 1:19:19 GMT -5 The Big Daddy C-Master said:

Remind me again why you hate it in technical detail. I know you think it's dumbed down but what exactly bothers you?

They basically took Third Strikes engine: [Same inputs: jab+short = Throw, Focus replaces UOH, 3P+3P = Taunts, Quick-Standing by tapping down on impact, etc] Dumbed down the inputs and flooded the game with cast members to appeal to fanboys. All while bashing SF3 and treating this game like the second coming. That was my first issue with this game.

It seems like they mish mashed 3s and sf2 with dumbed down stuff to me. The people who were bashing 3s probably never played it. To be fair many of the "fans" of 3s never played it either and pretend to do so only to fit in.

[The Big Daddy C-Master]

Jan 19, 2015 14:16:01 GMT -5 JACK-2 said:

Jan 19, 2015 1:20:50 GMT -5 The Big Daddy C-Master said:

People were saying "not all fights are like that". But a significant amount of them are. Sure you have enemies you can fight who have a slightly different approach but it isn't much.

Old school games didn't have all of that stuff yet the fighting was a challenge.

They broke the counter system. You couldn't do that nonsense in asylum.

Yea. Even weirder it was like I was punished for timing stuff properly; random hits and other nonsense. Asylum just felt right to me.

[JACK-2]

Jan 19, 2015 14:50:49 GMT -5 The Big Daddy C-Master said:

It seems like they mish mashed 3s and sf2 with dumbed down stuff to me. The people who were bashing 3s probably never played it. To be fair many of the "fans" of 3s never played it either and pretend to do so only to fit in.

Didn't you say SF4 was originally supposed to be an early build of 3S sequel? That explains the gameplay elements from 3s, they even have EX moves [you light up the sameway too]. There's no super jumping in SF4 though like in 3S.

In SRK bashing 3S even though most never played it is typical 09er style. So, glad I left that dung hole.